Shanet Clark
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Posts posted by Shanet Clark
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Wim
we went into detail on this on the "triple overpass thread"...check it out.
The big problem with classic gunman is that he is in NIX and BELL
but not in Moorman....Hence, I am asking how elevated Nix was over Moorman.
You are right; shadows and light dont' go into the marksmen stance, fire, look up, then look to their right as the target drives away. Tim, maybe you should assemble a time line of these four photos.
The HSAC didn't explain this photographic evidence, they only "explained it away."
Nix is a motion picture of a man in white clearly in firing position at the moment of impact. He is at the 6 inch horizontal break in the retaining wall, with a car (landau roof) directly behind him.........and where that car was is hotly contested.
shanet
looking for answers
(Robardeau, what do you think?)
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McCloy was winking, and Lawson was nodding.
wink wink -- nudge nudge
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Kutzer has a good point, but looking at how it SHOULD have been done (w/matching rifles) is less worthwhile than looking at what WAS done...
Kind of like the "faces in the crowd" debate....'''gee, it don't make no sense""
thanks for participating, look forward to your posts....
Very interesting conclusions, Al.
So a larger rifle is more likely to cause the "tangential" right temple wound.
This hurts the Files scenario but supports the badgeman/classic gunman theme.
(I know Wim will object to this)
Al--what do you think of the seminar paper by Dr. Minken (sp) "Autopsy Evidence"
Is his view as convincing as Pat Speers' more conventional interpretation?
In other words what ballistic baseline do we use when interpreting angles and penetration tendencies?
I certainly believe the right rear headwound was covered up.
It also looks like the skull and brain photos were misinterpreted by the HSAC in 1977.
When all the evidence (including evidence of forgery) is considered, where did the shots come from, and how many?
I am also eager to hear from you concerning John Connally's wounds,
what were these shots origins, in your professional opinion?
Thank You, (I hope you don't get into trouble shooting at the dummy heads!!!!
We don't do that here where I'm from..........kidding)
Shanet
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That could never happen in this country!
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Forum Members
We all should read Denis's website.
He has worked hard to elicit answers from many of the principle players.
While the answers he recieved are hardly satisfactory, they do shed light.
The tramp photos, the "FBI" man picking up a stray bullet, Oswald's security and many other issues are addressed with photos and correspondence.
Denis Morrisette is a "citizen investigator" of a high order.
Click on his website, you'll see what I mean...........
Shanet
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wim
good points.
the film evidence is so compromised it is of limited value.
although I cannot agree with Fetzer that the whole thing is a HOAX (see website)
I am sure frames were removed to de-emphasize the slowness (braking) and many believe that the headshot frames were doctored. Certainly simultaneous or near simultaneous shots complicate the ability of researchers to understand the physics of the film-dubs. I have seen the windshield photo and I see a small crack, not an entrance hole, (usually a bullet sized hole with a corona).
Certainly the south knoll shooter could have fired the under emphasized
throat shot. Probably all three ambush snipers in the triangulated plan hit the President. Back, front and temple. Perhaps a "penetrating" round did the front-left to right-rear damage while a "deer rifle" round from the front-right "pushed" JFK
"back and to the left"
"back and to the left"
"back and to the left"
also, I am convinced by recent (david wimp) analysis, that any forward motion of JFK in the headshot frame of Zapruder was the result of the Brakes being applied by GREER, as agent HELLERMAN'S head also bobs forward at the same time.....
Keep plugging away, we are breaking new ground every day, and informing others.
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Jim
This case is so counter-counter-counter espionage, I can barely follow.
I'm sure the other readers are completely in the dark.
Could you give a common sense overview of what you think the Nosenko case means, really lay it out, if you have time? I'll re-read my sources and get up to speed...there is a lot there and it ties in with Oswald, but its just so confusing, the Nosenko / Angleton thing..........
(....that part where the Warren COmmission says "oswald didn't expatriate himself" what a crock of hogwash!!...)
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Tim
What a powerful and sweeping depiction of the times. I hope Andy and his students read this and apply it to their studies. I have studied this period, I looked through my files for more material to add, but it was fruitless, you have stated what I know better than I ever could myself!
This is no soft, lefty, "pinko" analysis...the hysteria and overstatement by the American side (the MR X telegram, etc.) are now agreed upon by patriotic American historians.
What a great paper, this is why I love the Education Forum so much.
The Soviets had opposed Hitler's Nazi armies, especially at Stalingrad. We were their allies because they had been forced to oppose Germany, and were both allied with Britain and the French resistance.
After the solidarity of convenience between Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt, the relationship rapidly went downhill in the post-war era. The partition of Europe fell mainly upon lines of active armed Occupation...where the red army was, they stayed, where the democratic allies were at the end of the fighting, there they remained. (hence the polarized Berlin) The Soviets had an isolated economy, not an interchangeable currency, etc. and the Comintern (communist international) was their foreign policy.
James Byrnes, United States Secretary of State in the immediate post war era, wrote a book called "Frankly Speaking" which outlines in detail his frustrations with the chief Soviet negotiator, Molotov...and the tension which ended the alliance are obvious...the US could not continue in co-operation with such an obstructionist, unyielding and growingly hostile state. Mr Stalin could not be a US ally in peacetime, it took the Nazi threat to bring us together. Once that threat was gone, the relationship quickly evaporated.
Shanet Clark, GSU
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Too complicated.
Johnson was apprached by CIA/MI with the "facts" about Kennedy's incapacity, and with Douglass Dillon on board, went along with the sanction.
He benefitted but did not initiate.
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Richard Russell was his own man. As Governor of Georgia, he was more powerful than even Gene Talmadge, because he worked better with the National Democratic Party than Talmadge. Richard Russell was longtime chairman of the Senate Armed Forces Committee, and chaired the Intelligence Subcommittee.
He was as powerful in his day, over intelligence, as the entire Joint Committee on Intelligence is today. Basicallly he ran the congressional Intelligence oversight function out of his back packet, no investigations, no leaks, no Church/Kean type investigative oversight, just Senator Russell keeping an eye on the CIA and NSA during the Cold War....that is why Johnson wanted and needed him on the Warren Commission.
He did not want to serve because he knew "that dog won't hunt"
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Yeah, I've heard he's got a fistful of dollars and a few dollars more.
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Jim
Good post. You and I see eye to eye on a lot of issues. Nosenko is one of the most impenetrable events in diplomatic history. Why was Nosenko imprisoned in the United States, after defecting with the information that Oswald was not KGB?
Either Angleton thought he was lying, or didn't want the truth to get out. The more I read about Angleton's counter-intelligence witch hunts, the more I am starting to think he was the United States' version of Kim Philby and Guy Burgess.
Shanet
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Robert Kennedy showed immense courage and concern for his country when he decided to run for President. The same systematic conspiratorial forces then responded in an equally violent manner, utterly confirming that Dallas was indeed an organized governmental conspiracy.
You can't hide the murder, but you can "interpret" the evidence any way you want, if the force of authority is behind you...hence "magical bullets" doing "impossible things".......
I told a friend of mine the other day that covert assassination technology was improved between 1963 and 1968, but the similarities of Sirhan Sirhan to Lee Harvey Oswald are notable. They were both put in place 'Manchurian Candidate' style, but could not be trusted to "finish the deed"
hence, suspicious extra rounds were fired from other angles...............
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Always good to hear from Jim Marrs.
An overview:
After participating in the 'triple underpass' thread and reading almost all of the postings and seminar papers I have a general comment on Tosh.
His story checks out.
He stays on the same line, he is interested in the truth, he is embattled for it, and he wants to share his story without being asked to go beyond what he knows.
His knowledge of the air traffic and personalities of the period is proven by James in Australia and other confirmers. His ability to show subtle differences in his own de-classified files shows his "bona fides." His testimony to special Congressional committees has never been shot down.
Zapruder was filmed from Kennedy's right, 90 degrees to the limousine.
However, at the moment of the fatal headshot, JFK is not in profile, he is turned towards his wife. At this moment he had been shot already in the back and in the throat. LOOKING LEFT IT IS ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH THE BALLISTIC EVIDENCE THAT THE SHOT CAME FROM THE SOUTH KNOLL, NEAR THE PARKING LOT AND THE RAILROAD OVERPASS. This bullet penetrated Kennedy's upper right forehead and caused the back lower right part of his skull to be blown out as all medical eyewitnesses state (but none of the compromised film or X-rays can confirm).
A shooter from the grassy knoll could not have caused the wound seen in the Zapruder film or the wound described by the doctors, because JFK was looking to his left.
As I have stated before, the Zapruder Point of View and the interest in the north (grassy) knoll, where a third triangulated position may have been in place either at the wall (classic/carhood position) or the fence (badgeman/puff of smoke) have precluded interest, or blinded us to what we call in American Football "the flat" the large open space to the limousine's left, the south knoll, with its good views and escape routes.
Tosh, as an Eyewitness sent by his CIA and JM/WAVE agent handlers
TRACY BARNES and WILLIAM HARVEY, has a very good and uncorrupted memory of events. Other witnesses either were not in a good position, heard distorted echoes under sudden duress, or have been coached and intimidated. The term the CIA used for this observation mission, calling it "an Abort Task," was obviously hocus-pocus and only a cover story, but it warned Tosh and 'Sergio" to be ready for gunfire, and they were.......
While all this is not conclusive, it is compelling.
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Thanks Al for putting up with us "wingnuts"
A few questions...why is the P in the lead car?
I thought the P was supposed to be in the interior of the parade formation.
Two Why were the windows open along the Dallas route, wasn't this a violation?
Three Why were there observers on the overpass looking straight down on the President, wasn't this a violation?
Four, why was there no Hardtop, isn't this a violation?
Five, why was there no running boards? Violation?
Why were they driving at 8-10 miles per hour? Violation?
What is the policy on drinking the night before?
These are the items most readers are interested in.
The Warren Report was quite hard on the 1963 Secret Service concerning these.
I understand your limits on speaking out, but what can you say about these lapses?
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As I stated on another thread, Oswald was Marines, a branch of the Navy, and ONI must have known about him, or was controlling him...not that he was the lone gunman of course, but that his staged antics and frame came out of the naval side of things......Robert Anderson looks like the point man......
As Dept. Secretary of Defense he was at the top of the security clearance pyramid and had access to all sorts of Cold War Plans and Programs....
As Secretary of Treasury he had control of the Secret Service until C.D. Dillon came in and probably had hired or at least had influence with people like Emory and Greer....so he would be a Navy Texas Oil Republican DDOD Secretary of Treasury with ties to Murchison and Richardson, and the man who "gave" LBJ his lucrative radio station.....
Then there is this
quote
In 1954 Nelson Rockefeller was appointed chairman of the (Operations Coordinating Board) OCB's 5412 Committee (also called the "Special Group"). Other members were Undersecretary of State Hebert Hoover, Jr., Defense Undersecretary Robert B. Anderson (representing Defense Secretary Wilson), and Allen Dulles (representing the CIA). I am a little confused on the Anderson timeline, i.e., when he went from Secretary of the Navy to Under Secretary of Defense to private business in New York, then back to Sec of the Treasury, etc.. Describes the Special Group as only second to the President in having responsibility for managing covert operations, but actually more powerful than the President. (page 851 note 21)
unquote
Robert Anderson, like Robert Lovett and Nelson Rockefeller, these are the type people who held themselves above the law and saw themselves as fit to pass judgment on the capacity of the President and order executive sanctions
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WAS THE JFK ASSASSINATION "LEGAL"???????
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Interesting post, it captures the context of the time very well.
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Poor security in Florida is no excuse for the events in Dallas.
The fact that no one took advantage of the poor security in Florida to kill Kennedy,
that has no bearing on Dallas. The security arrangements were obviously poor to the point of negligent in both cases.
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In Dallas the slow turn,
detour,
walking speed rate of motion,
brakes applied in the ambush,
open windows,
overpass crowds directly overhead,
lack of running boards and president in lead car...
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all these, whether precedented in Florida or not, point to co-ordinated interference in the security of the president, leading to his demise. In Dallas.
I agree with the angle that Dallas had airfields,
railroad tracks,
roads and highways for escape ...
and characters like Ruby and Oswald and the Dallas local police --
and all this made it a better spot for the conspirators than the isolation of peninsular Florida. If it was a pure agency operation, they would have done it overseas, SOP.
(Re-submitted with Emphasis)
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http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pag...d=1101010793346
Don Roberdeau
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John" Plank Walker
Don, you have to sign up to see the citation, then you have to pay to read the article.
°°°j°°
.............and that's not cool.........
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John G-
good points, I agree. If you google Howard Hunt you can read an interview where he is far from apologetic and the right wing editor obviously believes he is a great anti-communist warrior...shameless. Have you read Plausible Denial by Mark Lane? Marchetti and Mark Lane fought Hunt in Court, and won...a great story.
He had no alibi for 11/22/63 and he dragged his kids and co-workers into an ill conceived court case.
"Eduardo's" rounding up of the old Cuban secret operations team to do the Watergate job is one of the strangest events in American history...
shanet
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I was very concerned that Terry Mauro left. She had a very legitimate concern.
So was I. However, the reason she gave (an unwillingess to be on the same forum as Nancy Eldreth) did seem very strange.
John, Nancy is our member most given to rambling, disjointed postings.
I believe she is sincere and well meaning, and I don't want her barred, but I would like to see her tighten up a bit. Also her postings on Lancer are sometimes even farther afield, (and I think she had run-ins with Terry over there)......
Gibby is a masculine name in the States (like Giggy Haines)
Lancer puts Vernon in a special thread called "Weird" ... really!
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The "deep throat" angle is quite interesting, in that if any of the three leading suspects were exposed by Woodward, it would send major ripples through the Republican Party, which has conveniently forgotten that Nixon WAS a crook. Bennett is currently a right-wing Senator from Utah, of all places. Haig was Nixon's chief of staff and Secretary of State under Reagan. Fred Fielding was Reagan's attorney, adviser to the current President, and member of one of the 9/11 Panels. I suspect it was Haig.
Recent research shows that Woodward cooked up a cinematic character from a composite of sources when it became clear Hollywood was interested in All the Presidents Men, the DT references are mutually exclusive and apparently fictional. I believe he was getting information from Haig and possibly Mark Felt at FBI (Sullivan? Colby? Buchanan? who knows what tidbits flowed his way).
The Final Days is almost all Haig material. Haig was apparently protecting his role as Kissinger's wiretapper #1. Woodward was a top executive briefer when he was in the Navy and had murky ties to intelligence. The whole Admiral Moorer/Yeoman Radford spy case (where the Joint Chiefs were stealing National Security Advisor Kissinger's paperwork) ties in with this. (Secret Agenda, Silent Coup)
I totally agree with Tim's post, Bishop (Phillips) played a role, and Dulles was obviously involved. SInce Oswald was Marines, the ONI played some role in all this as well...........but DeMorenschildt was on him like stink on S#@$......
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I have never known a 14 year old able to participate in an adult research dialog at the level of Gibson. But I see no bias or irrational behavior, so its not a problem.
I was very concerned that Terry Mauro left. She had a very legitimate concern.
Please, lets just ignore personal and irrational postings and let those threads fade to the bottom.
I support John 100%
Shanet
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Steve,
Interesting topic. Michael Piper Collins book "Final Judgment", which IMO has been incorrectly interpreted by some researchers to be 'anti-Semitic' (its thesis is a Mossad connection to the JFK assassination) discusses the similarities to and possible connection between the attempts on De Gaulle and the assassination of JFK.
Pamela
I started another thread to address these questions, specifically was the plan to assassinate DeGaulle in Cabarra (sp) in 1962 related operationally to Dallas?
This is on that same theme. The Christian David theme, after I looked into it was pretty weak, as was the Corsican theme. The Mossad theme is new to me.
I am mainly looking for any leaks or leads out of French Intelligence or OAS about an operational plans link between the DeGaulle attempts and Dallas.
Frederick Forsyth, who wrote Day of the Jackal and the Dogs of War, probably assumed a connection like this, specifically the Mercury Bullets.........
shanet
Question for Don Roberdeau
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Is this Moorman? Isn't this to far to the right to be the same as Nix's figure, who is at the break in the wall........?