Shanet Clark

John, Wim, and members. This is a classic thread.

Wim had posted the long defense for Files six months ago. I brought it back to the top, a lot of (shakey) people got involved and then John Simkin stated his position.

Wim and I have been emailing backchannell from georgia to Holland about this. John is very hesitant to blame Dallas on organized crime. He is absolutely right. Mafia themes are so 1977, a red herring as Jack White says...

Blakely (HSAC) took the easy way out and weaseled out of a bad spot. But Roselli was more than a gangster like Lepke, he was the man who brought organized crime into the world of intelligence ops. Roselli was pivotal, and who better to task with a hit, when Giancana wanted JFK dead as well. Roselli's mentor. Read Jimmie the Weasel's book THE LAST HITMAN and Sam Giancana's nephews book. "The right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing." The cut-out was the mobster, Roselli. Nothing about using Roselli (Castro assassin) or Jimmy Files, or Nicolletti and Woody's dad, Charles Harrelson, exonerates the CIA, in fact their deaths in the 1970s show an agency program...if the government wanted someone killed, wanted it tasked and finished, then Maheu, Roselli and Giancana were obvious choices. I believe Files, that it was ad hoc, a quick look around and take a shot. Roselli choosing not to fire, or post a station, and everybody waiting until they thought the

other team was not going to fire, then BLAM.

Jimmy Files, the Dal-tex(or county records) shooter who I have always thought was Frank Fiorini Sturgis and possibly a good third triangulation shooter from the south knoll (Hunt) avulsing the right rear skull with a left frontal shot.

The CIA and MI working with the mob regulars (colonel ralston, indeed) would have found this a good working team... Files's story just makes sense. It may be true,

and .22's don't ever have a big recoil.............

Shanet (but I'm just a country boy from West Virginia)

Ron said:

Since when do Mafiosi "bow out" of jobs? Luckily this one got done anyway thanks to a driver willing to help out, but why did they wait 13 years to put Johnny in an oil drum?

Roselli didn't bow out. He followed through. He only did not shoot, but he probably would have, if Nicoletti would not have asked Files.

Ron said:

You'll have to ask Files why he made this part of his story.

Well, I know he is telling the truth, so that would be a stupid question for me to ask.

Wim

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While we are on the subject, I know John was impressed with

Barr McClellan's book. What do the other members think of

the book. It seems to hinge, perhaps toomuch, on the

finding that it was Ed Clark's fingerprint on the box in the

sniper's nest (6th floor TBSD)...

what do you all think of Barr McClellan?

He is certainly an intelligent and well connected person,

and wouldn't make such a pariah of himself (alienating his family, etc.)

if he weren't pretty sure he had the real story....

Shanet

John, Tim

The Secret Service was and is under the control of the Treasury Department.

The Secretary of the Treasury at this time was Republican C.D.Dillon, a notorious

Wall Street intriguer with Dillon Read and Co. This line of authority helps to

shed light on the lack of protection, no running boards, slow detour, etc.

These events set the stage for the actual ambush and show a degree of

incompetence correllating with sponsorship before the fact.

Shanet Clark

United States Senate/William Randolph Hearst Scholar and Woodruff Fellow

(Tim-the film shows a Secret Service agent apparently unable to

mount his usual running boards, shrugging and dropping back, a sad event)

John

I think you will find that Lyndon had a private conversation with John Kennedy

before the 1960 convention that apparently included some material developed by J.Edgar Hoover concerning Mr. Kennedy's personal experiences.

Against the wishes and unknown to his brother and closest advisors

Kennedy then offered the vice-presidency to Lyndon.

I have read this in a couple narratives (Hersh, Summers?)

Maybe some one else has the citations exactly,

but I am pretty sure that is what happened.

Hoover and Johnson were allied and Kennedy hated both of them.

The nomination and submission to blackmail would eventually spell his doom.

Shanet

Chris

That link was definitely worth a look.

AM/lash was Rolando Cubela Secares, so he is a principle player. Notice that despite all the code, the alphabetical order is based on political distance from Moscow, with 'A' to 'D' being Iron Curtain. MK was chemical warfare and MK/Search replaced MK/Ultra in 1964. I also know Blue was Air Force and space; Bluebook, Bluesky, etc. Paperclip was also called ASHCAN.

(Maybe they called the Warren Commission BS/Cover))

Shanet

Tosh

Inter-Mountain was a CIA proprietary airline with a maintenance

station and airfield in Mena, Arkansas.

(but i'm sure you knew that)

Shanet

Great post Wim.

Seems like this Jimmy Sutton/Files confession is one of the more important topics of discussion here, and this posting really shed a lot of light on the situation. I am especially intrigued by the fact that he bit the shell, and this was later found. After reading his confession, I found the whole story to have a strong internal logic, which many of the other scenarios lack.

For instance there is the fact that the government erased the man's birth records... he doesn't even "exist"

What do our other researchers say about this? (remembering that many of them are deeply committed to other scenarios)

This appears to be a major breakthrough in the search for Kennedy's killers.

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/confession2.htm

Shanet

Jools, I think the Salandria statement is a very powerful answer to your reasonable question. In the world of covert operations and counter-intelligence, black is white, white is black, and the grey is a many-coloured thing. You do what the other side would do and then blame them for it, etc.

Motivation and "why would..." questions go too far behind the evidence... The very complexity and number of questions serves some larger purpose...which is again hidden, or occluded.

John Simkin asked me to address your question, but I have little to say beyond the Salandria statement.

Why would Bush go to war to find WMD's that weren't there?

Why would Nixon continue to fight in Vietnam until 1975?

Why do rebels and troops in Sierra Leone chop off civilians hands?

Evidently the use of force and power has a bloody motivation all its own, invisible to both rational and peaceful people...

Shanet Clark,

Hearst/Senate Scholar, and Woodruff Fellow of History, GSU Atlanta

The photo of the star shaped right side head wound is supporting evidence for the theory put forth in the A&E series The men who killed Kennedy - that someone did extensive surgical work to remove lead and or mercury from the cranium, and alter the evidence to conform to a simple "lone gunman from the rear" scenario.

Groden insisted that the back of the head photos did not pass "stereo-optical" tests, by comparing two photos from slightly different angles, a 3D effect was gained, but not where the Dallas medical team had said the back of the head was missing.

This is the only part of the film evidence I believe was "faked" - to hide the front-to-back impact implicit in the remarks of Bethesda and Dallas post-mortem witnesses; i.e, the photos show the extensive surgical work and hide the large exit wound in the back of the head. Government agencies, even under FOIA, rarely release ANY photographic intelligence, and the JFK post-mortems are highly compromised, but informative in their own way.

Shanet

Great post, Bill

The avulsed (shot out) skull parts on the back of JFK's

head is the key evidence in the whole conspiracy.

Shot from the front.

(and other directions)

Shanet

Good one, Shanet.

It is going to be a wet weekend here and I now have plenty to read. 

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm telling you---the big cheese spilled the beans...

shanet

John, Tim, James and other members:

I Just Found a huge web site dedicated to Colby, The MK/ULTRA and various

CIA excesses. It was put together by the son of Frank Olson, who died

from the MK/ULTRA experiments. It contains the article "The man who knew too much" and many of Colby's actual CIA files, and much more:

(the 1953 CIA assassination handbook is particularly rich):

http://www.frankolsonproject.org/Contents.html

Shanet

Sound very interesting

Welcome to the Forum

Shanet Clark

Jack

The Murray photo shows the rail car windows foreshortened and much taller than the Nix frame.

But thanks for another clear picture of Kilroy (the Classic Gunman)

Shanet

"challenging and debating"

thats really funny, wim.

I read the long article in Vanity Fair about the 2000 election,

and it really boiled down to Jim Baker (former sect. of state, not the

televangelist), it boiled down to the fact that James Baker gave Bush better legal representation than Al Gore got. Once Gore pressed for a selective recount in only

four democratic counties, Baker had him, and in one of the great ironies of american history this actually gave Bush a bit of a case for "equal protection"... which the conservatives always hated to grant for anybody...the Court could have pressed for a complete recount, but it went 5-4 along ideological (Party)lines....

JIB-JAB is a funny site, too

Die Bold!

Shanet

Carly

Jim Root's post is a good use of a primary document, and we all know that

primary government documents can be dense and misleading, very difficult.

You should probably be familiar with Mark Lane's "Rush to Judgement"

which laid out the most glaring faults of the Warren Commission, and it was the first book to come from us "conspiracy" people. Later, there was a book many of us are familiar with, "Best Evidence" (Groden?) and "High Treason" along the same lines, lots of people have poked holes in the W.C. Thats JFK 11/22/63 101.

If you want to get into Oswald's actual true biography read "Legend, the secret world of Lee Harvey Oswald" (E.J.Epstein) which is very 'legitimate'...most of all remember the Warren Commission was totally unconstitutional, the President shouldn't form a special board and force the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, a few congressmen, a few Senators and fired CIA personnel (alan dulles) to write up a report under intense "national security" intimidation and pressure...

its all very fishy.

Have you ever read the 25th amendment? It was written in 1965, and ratified in 1967, and I think it tells the story, in another way ....

Good Luck, but don't make it a 'career' like us .............there's more to life.

Shanet Clark

Woodruff Fellow in History, Hearst / Senate Scholar, GSU atlanta.

(((((Context: The Cold War, Bay of Pigs, organized crime, covert CIA operations,

the biography of Dulles, McCloy and Ford....

Content: Faulty FBI conclusions, outrageous staff legal conclusions (arlen specter), failure to properly interview Jack Ruby and follow up on myriad discrepancies....

Consequences: Maybe take a cultural approach, loss of faith in US government,

riots, radicalism, the Church Committee, Watergate, RFK MLK and the fact of all the witnessess murdered during the re-opening of the case in the House 1975-1977.))))))

Yeah, Tosh, that is a bummer...I'd help you out if I knew that kind of stuff.

Thanks for giving us so much information.

WOuldn't want to be in your shoes,

and I'm sure you've been burned and misquoted a lot.

thanks again

Shanet

Thanks for your reply, Shanet.

I know this image was snapped after the shooting, but is Arce talking about somewhere near the tree to the right of frame?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another great photo James....

Maybe Arce (..what a name..) thought the wide sidewalk up in the colonnade, (see the park bench?) maybe he thought that was like a street, but I don't think he was actually across any "auto traffic" street, from what he said. He was in front of the TBSD, to the west, on the grass and higher up when he heard shots from the Fence/Knoll/RR tracks....so i wonder how did he die?...........

I said this in the big 'Triple Underpass' thread, but I looked at John's AFTERMATH photo gallery, and it looks to me like security sweeps, men in suits, evenly spaced, calmly policing the area...maybe they were onlookers and journalists, but it just looks strange the way the AFTERMATH photos show men spread out and observing...does anybody else see this as significant? James you know what pictures I'm talking about don't you?

Shanet

Shanet:

JM/WAVE = Operation Mongoose Hqtrs on the Univ of Miami South Campus

ZR/RIFLE = Executive Action

AM/LASH = individual human assassin: Cubela

QJ/WIN = also an individual, but unlike Cubela, this is an actual pro - a real killer.

Tim

Tim

The most famous was the program MK/ULTRA

That ties in with the paper I' ve sent in to John for the conference.

But what does Tosh's file really mean? These guys might have killed Roselli, right?

shanet

John's link on Fred Black bolsters the Barr McClellan story.

I'm looking forward to his paper on LBJ.

If Ed Morgan was Maheu's lawyer, that ties Hughes and Maheu in

tighter, like people were saying on another thread.

The big defense contract is pretty heavy, too.

Who is Rolanda Cubeles Secares?

I thought AMLASH was an acronym like JM/WAVE and ZR/RIFLE

but Tosh's file just calls Rolando Cubeles "Amlash" like its his name.

He's right after Artimes on the list.

What is the deal with these two?

Good thread.

Shanet

But John

Sometimes I think you have invited all the lone nuts themselves. Just kidding, actually this forum is very respectable, and Dawn's skeptical attitude will fit right in.

Welcome, post often and keep us "honest"

Shanet

This section of Danny Arce's testimony to the Warren Commission is him trying to explain where he was standing during the assassination. To say the least, I am confused. Can anyone help out by pinpointing where Arce was?

Any assistance would be appreciated.

James

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?

    Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.

    Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?

    Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view. and still couldn't see.

    Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?

    Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

    Mr. BALL. How many?

    Mr. ARCE. Three.

    Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?

    Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.

    Mr. BALL. When you were on the grass, were you south where you were? Where were you with reference to the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository?

    Mr. ARCE. I was down to the west side, a little more to the west.

    Mr. BALL. Were you west of the building itself?

    Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

    Mr. BALL. You were not in front of the building?

    Mr. ARCE. I was directly in front, but then I walked a few steps down to the west side.

    Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to the west wall of the building?

    Mr. ARCE. Oh, I was way far from it. I was across the street, I mean.

    Mr. BALL. What do you mean "across the street"?

    Mr. ARCE. Well, there's a little sidewalk right across the street and there's some grass and things up there and that's where I was at. I couldn't tell you exactly where I was, see, it's hard to explain.

    Mr. BALL. Well, you say you were not in front of the building?

    Mr. ARCE. Well, not directly, not in front; I was across the street.

    Mr. BALL. And were you west of the west wall of the building?

    Mr. ARCE. Well, I was, well the building--

    Mr. BALL. I understand but you were to the south of the building. You had to be south of the building, didn't you?

    Mr. ARCE. Well, I was south but I was, well, I guess you could say I was in front of the building but not directly in front, well, I don't know how to explain it.

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Sounds like he was on the grass behind the Umbrella man and "gator"

He also says he was across the street but that doesn't make any sense.

He heard three shots from the railroad tracks, which would have been to his right.

shanet

((OR HE WAS LYING....10/31/04))

Okay

Bill, thank you for making a few reasonable posts.

Tosh, thank you for telling your story and presenting the possibility of a south knoll shooter...very professional, both of you.

BUT Bill, I must point out a few things.

The badgeman photos just look like a Rorshach test, random.

I never see the badgeman.

But many of the photos posted on this thread show a Classic Gunman

in position.

Tosh, do you think a south shooter might explain that nasty wound around

JFK's right ear that is in the Zapruder film and the autopsy photo?

In other words was the big right side wound an exit wound from a shot fired from the south knoll?

Neither Tosh nor the south knoll shooter is in the photo posted so often,

but it is after the shooting, and the shooter (if there was one over there)

has slipped back into the parking lot

Bill, though, raised his tone to a more professional level, so that's good.

Tosh is not happy because the thread went from the south knoll theory

over to the Classic gunman, and he's right, we need to look into the

south knoll.

James, do you have any other shots of the south Knoll?

Maybe those pix are what got destoyed and rounded up.

Let's keep working together, even though we don't agree.

shanet

Now that's a very good question.

James, Tosh, Wim, John, Tim....

what's the word, who is the big fat "Oswald"???

Shanet