Shanet Clark

Jack, Tim

Could you calmly state your reason for believing Classic Gunman was

a retouched addition.  I fail to see why the government would

erase a gunman from a film only to put another one in a few yard away!

Shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I stated it very clearly several times:

1. Itek was correct...part of the image is sunlight spots on the pergola.

2. If part of the "man" was sunlight spots, "he" did not exist, despite opinions.

3. The Nix film is radically retouched in this area and others.

4. The image of the MOVING TRAIN WINDOWS was added. There was no moving train.

This is territory which was put to bed many years ago. I understand

that newcomers may not understand it all...but I was told by Mr. Simkin

that there were students here who would like to benefit from the experience

of those who have studied this case 40+ years. Instead I find that many

do not want to learn, but to challenge and debate. I have studied this for many

years, and the issue of the CARTOP GUNMAN is settled unless proved otherwise.

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jack, my friend

Which is it Retouching or Sunspots?

Claiming both waters down both arguments.

John' Forum does have some totally unknowing young students here,

but Tim and I are not in that category. We don't accept everything from

the 1970's as gospel. This "territory" has not been "put to bed" at all.

You seem to think "Learning" is a one way street where we passively

accept some authority's opinion. Actually, real learning is all about

"challenge and debate" Your pettiness about the jargon is also a sign

of a closed mind. The House committee called it a Classic Gunman,

and that's what we call it on this Forum because its a clear

picture of a gunman in the classic firing position.

You don't have a patent on the name that you can enforce....sheesh!

You didn't answer my questions

Which is it, sunspots or re-touching?

What possible motive could the agencies have to pencil in a gunman

if they were committed to a lone gunman from the rear?

Your story makes no sense. The evidence shows a gunman.

The fence is higher than the wall, so the car isn't behind the fence and

peaking over the wall....its behind the wall in front of the fence,

(Maybe its a GETAWAY CAR???)

I've been looking at this stuff since the mid 1970's too, and I am glad

to be expressing the opinion, along with Tim, that it might be important that:

HEY THERE"S A MAN WITH A GUN IN THESE PICTURES!!!

Shanet

Jack, Tim

Hey I posted but it got lost in the $#%@storm!

Jack, you're opinion is valued, but you can't expect us to

totally discount a recurrent evidentiary image just because

you think its red herring!

Whats the Deal with the train, I wondered what the Bright squares

behind the profile man were.

Could you calmly state your reason for believing Cartop man was

a retouched addition. I fail to see why the government would

erase a gunman from a film only to put another one in a few yard away!

Also, please use your delete cursor and tighten up

I spent ten minutes writing a response and by the time I posted

I was thirty feet up from where I started...

Shanet

Good Stuff!

I never, ever see the "badgeman," ... talk about light and shadow...

but I always see the classic gunman, again and again, especially in the

material Bill Miller nicely provided for us, thanks, Bill...

I read the House link, I was already

familiar with it. The federal committee just dismissed the classic gunman as an

optical illusion, neat, huh? So does Bill, just light on the wall...not evidence.

Now I did notice one thing, Dix (w/ classic gunman and carhood)

and Moorman (w/ a different location of classic gunman)

were taken from WIDELY DIVERGENT POINTS OF VIEW!

So Moorman, down low, shows no gunman at the break in the wall,

and no car hood, but does show the classic gunman in military firing position a little farther to our right. He's over in the part Bill always crops out.

I'll give you this -- in both Dix and Moorman you can see the jog

(discontinuity) in the retaining wall

(where the classic gunman is in Dix) and in Moorman,

you don't see the car hood or the gunman, right there.

Dix, taken from a position up higher and to Kennedy's right, shows the gunman,

and the car hood...and Moorman, taken from a lower angle and much farther to Kennedy's left, just shows the classic gunman, at ease and shifted farther to our right.

If you show a cropped Moorman, you can show empty space, but the full

Moorman shows just what Tim () posted, a distinct gunman.

Since Dix and Moorman were taken from different heights and angles,

it isn't likely they both captured stray light on a wall that look just like an assassin.

((Also Bill, while reading your 'fatuously obstructionist' postings on the loony Lancer, where you repeatedly bully and insult people, I found that you "believe in the Magic Bullet" and that's what I said here. You dont have to believe in the entire "Single Bullet Theory" to believe in the "magic bullet" ...

you have spent quite a bit of time and energy trying to prove that the bullet than went into Kennedy's back came out his throat, right ? (Which is quite impossible.)

Sorry, Bill, people don't think Tim is irrational or off-base, but they are

often disappointed in your language, social skills and reasoning.

Shanet

Bill

Thanks for four more photos of the classic gunman.

You believe in the magic bullet also, I believe,

and are a big defender of Gary Mack.

Rude and impatient on Lancer, now you're condescending in tone with me.

Nothing you've said or shown in these posts

a) makes any sense

B would hold up in court, or

c) would sway an open minded individual

shanet

[

John try to remember that the 6th floor is a "historical" Museum. Their job is to keep the history straight. When that history is ever changed - they will share that information accordingly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That says it all Bill

When history changes, wait for the Dallas authorities and

the rude wingnuts who jabber about the Warren Commission to

keep you informed!

History is a dynamic, fluid and unmanageable body of opinion,

also known as public memory,

and it stems from the public mind--

change the public's perception and "History" changes...

The Warren Commission is grotesque propaganda and its proponents

heavy handed people willing to fight common sense and the evidence

all day long for the "authorities"

Gary Mack and his defenders here are all non-critical, naive or worse.

shanet

John are you saying tha Giancana and Roselli didn't have any role in the assassination?  Interesting question. Also, was Charles Harrelson mafia or CIA?

Same question for  :

Frank Sturgis (Fiorini)

Chauncey Holt?

Giancana?

Posada Carrilles?

Guillermo Novo?

Felix Rodriguez?

Charles Rogers?

Roselli?

Nicoletti?

Ferrie?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wim

I know about Harrelson, Ferrie, Nicoletti, Roselli, Giancana and Sturgis---and have a rough idea how they fit into the picture.

Who are these other guys?

(I know Felix Rodrigez was a big Contra paramilitary guy that knew GHW BUSH)

Shanet

Respected Members----------

I've been following this closely.

Bill's counter arguments make no sense whatsoever.

I have no idea what he's trying to prove,

(I mean I do know ...but he's totally and completely ineffective)

and the photos Bill posted are all cropped, marked up and confusing ---

conversely, Tim's all tie together and pretty much prove his point.

I've been reading over on the Lancer, and I must say

Beedee-bedee

beedee-bedee

(I'm singing the Twilight Zone theme)

Tim's argument for taking seriously these images is overdue.

He's obviously a sane refugee from weirdo-ville (Lancer)

and has (or is developing!) a credible theory to explain the photo evidence.

Others have come over, too, and its pretty easy to evaluate

them by going over some recent Lancer posts. (Bill, for instance, is quite rude.)

Lancer is quite entertaining,

{For instance one gentleman believes he was recruited by the Taliban to do extermination work in the caves and was then asked to go to flight school, etc.}

Overall Lancer is pretty useless as any kind of evidentiary roundtable.........

I hope the Education Forum doesn't go down that road.

Shanet

Thank you, Ron

We are very much in agreement then.

I believe this is a rough consensus of the reasonable ones.

Shanet

Shanet,

"JFK was assassinated by the military-industrial-intelligence complex, using anti-Castro Cubans and the Mafia in supporting roles, and with Lyndon Johnson more than happy to manage the cover-up ...

I believe there was a shooter on the south knoll, as it makes perfect sense in terms of triangulation, and provided a straight head-on shot. It also explains the the exit wound in the right rear of JFK's head as opposed to a shot from the north knoll....nd there is Tosh's account, of course. He says he heard a shot from that area. I .... if he was deliberately misled when told he was on an abort mission. Were Tosh and others potential patsies?

The evidence points to at least one shooter in the TSBD (west side) and one person who at least acted like a shooter to draw attention to Oswald's window. One shooter in Dal-Tex, and possibly one on top of the Records building, and one or two shooters on the north knoll.

As for Jimmy Files, I worked with convicts for about 20 years, and I think Files has the same amount of credibility as about 99 percent of them, which means none. ....i think Hunt and Sturgis were involved someway, which is why Hunt gets "visibly uncomfortable" when asked about the subject, and why Congress couldn't find out for sure where either one of them was on 11/22/63. ...

They are part of the Watergate connection you mention, which I certainly see in terms of the people who were used (the burglary itself had nothing to do with Dallas), starting at the top with Richard Nixon. I think Nixon was in Dallas that morning to show his moral support for the killers.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"None dare call it treason?"

I'm afraid we all know what ideology that represents.....

Shanet

Ron,

Actually, from your comments on other subjects,

I figure you're a fairly balanced person.

What do you think of the Tosh material

on the south knoll shooter --- and Tim's Classic Gunman theory?

For that matter, what is your basic theory?

The Mafia, Mafia working for the agency, strictly an intelligence job, etc.??

DO you think someone was low in the rear, like the Dal-Tex or County records?,

If yes, was that person Brading or Niccoletti or someone else?

What do you think of Jimmy Sutton/Files?

What about Hunt and Sturgis?

Tim and I both see a lot in the Watergate connection..........

You're the researcher, fill me in..........

(Others are welcome to weigh in on the overall meaning)

Shanet

Members,

I am not a JFK assassination researcher.

I am an interested historian who has read

widely in American political history and

intelligence history issues.

I am participating in an open forum by asking questions and

evaluating the evidence I see presented.

The entire concept of a sixth floor museum at the

Texas Book store depository is flawed.

It pushes, from its very premise,

that Oswald did it and you're standing right where "it' happened.

Why not a grassy knoll / underpass museum?

What was this thread about anyway?

See what they've done.

Distract, intimidate and marginalize.

ITS THE UNSPEAKABLE TRUTH OF TWENTIETH CENTURY POLITICAL HISTORY-

JOHN KENNEDY WAS MURDERED BY HIS MILITANT REACTIONARY OPPOSITION.

and their shills are still out there

shanet

Thanks Jim

good answer

Wise to say less

The bum photos definitely have served as DISINFO,

The theory that they are Hunt, Harrelson and an Algerian hitman

still rings thru, but the whole thing is fishy, with other people admitting it is really them.......as for Ed Lansdale....

Prouty (or anyone) goes out on a limb when he

positively I.D.'s someone from a photo from behind.

thanks

I don't have the URL handy,

but there's plenty on the web about the problems Prouty saw in the

Christchurch, New Zealand newspapers circa November 23, 1963

and Fletcher Prouty's contribution to the debate.

Thanks again for the Nugan Hand/Colby material...and the Whitlam stuff...

Shanet

ANY MORE SONGS?

THIS IS THE MUSIC THREAD.....

Tim

if you read between the lines,

I'm afraid you might find that "bernice"(?)

is using Harry Dean's experience to

support the proposal that General Walker and

the Birchers killed Kennedy,

ie, claiming it for them, dig?

SHANET

Gary Mack sent me a hysterical e-mail at home

with "That bridge was damned crowded and the Secret Service let it happen"

as the SUBJECT line.....and he claimed everybody on the bridge was railroad workers and the 1963 secret service couldn't do anything about it...

I don't appreciate that....I deleted it as Spam...

This is from Gary Mack on the bridge question:

"I never knew, and I don't think any books mention it, that the Triple Underpass is private property owned by several railroads. That information surfaced a few years ago while working on a Sixth Floor Museum project.That, plus information from other documentation which I do not recall, explains what happened. In 1963, the Secret Service and Dallas Police had no jurisdiction over private property and people who had a legal right to be on it.According to DPD reports and WC testimony, the DPD called nearby Union Terminal (headquarters for railroad operations in the area) to send someone over to ID the workers who had a lawful right to be there. They sent S.M. Holland to do just that."

On the subject line Gary used in emailing you, I believe he was simply quoting you, as a reference point to the post he was responding to. I don't see nothing wrong with that. But I realize you've already addressed the matter of your reaction before knowing much about him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

RON

I know plenty about him...

See the administrators comments

Its serious.

Why are you defending this guy?

That email might reasonably have scared the hell out of somebody else.

Yes he was quoting me, OUTSIDE OF THIS FORUM ---

I don't know him, he was angry, and there was no,

"hey I'm emailing you outside of the forum, is that okay?"

just a big blast of defensive petulant Warren Commission nonsense.

with a subject line that could easily be seen as provocative

(provocateur?)

The people were on the bridge

over the President's head

as he got his brains blown out...

thats my point, SHANET

Good one, Len.

Lansdale below (2nd from left) with that thug Oliver North far right (literally). 

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jim, you're the man.

What do you think of the theory

that the guy with his back turned in the "Bums at the fence"

photo is Ed Lansdale?

What other evidence is there on him being in Dallas 11/22?

That whole thing about Prouty reading about Oswald

in New Zealand immediately after the murders, you know anything

about that? THe Christchurch papers had the whole frame ahead of time?

I always thought Prouty was a key source.

Not much on him in the FORUM, I guess its "understood"

you know, foundational material---or is Prouty not widely believed?

I would trust your take on this, based on experience

Ollie and Lansdale together---that's priceless....

Shanet

I'm committed to working calmly on substantive issues and downplaying personalities and potential disinformation. The problem is the FACTS are all in contention, and to say someone only follows facts, means, to me, that their going to give you a lame government-fed line.

Shanet

Tim, john

TIm's proposals, while not totally "Clinching" are solid and well

thought out. I've noticed in this forum, at least, the good is pushing out the

bad, and undistinguished opinions are ignored, exposed or dispensed with.

(and the weak threads fade to the bottom of the heap)

Lets all be vigilant and call

out the misinformed, the disinformation squads and those that would

post material so bizarre that it impugns us all.

Back to the issue....

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE SCALE

THE GOLIATH OBJECTION IS SPECIOUS, ie FALSE.

Look at the reference photo, the one with the tourists milling about.

The woman in RED and the man reading the PAPER (or map)

they aren't Nine Foot GIants...they are right where

the classic gunman appears, and about the same size as the classic gunman.

Tim is on to something.

The three photos he posted first,

they can't be dispensed with so easily...

To me the Classic Gunman is a real picture image, well defined,

with multiple details that solidly indicate a Marksmen with a Sling and Rifle.

In Multiple exposures over time ....

but the "badgeman"

is a suggestive, potential image only, in only one photo,

and quite possibly a play of light ....

Shanet

Tim,

That last frame gives me the best feel for the topography

and scale, it took me a while to understand the perpendicular 'Alley'

that was used. I'll look over this and get back to you, but

certainly no major problems....I would put a highway pylon at the

curb at the point of the headshot(s) and photograph this from the "perpendicular alley, over the fence, over the wall, and have people in the Dix and Moorman point of view photograph someone in position.

(( ps. did you get the attachment?)))

Shanet

GSU History Fellow active with the Organization of American Historians, the American History Association, the Southern Historical Association and the National Council of History Educators (OAH, AHA, SHA and NCHE).

Shanet Clark graduated summa cum laude with a BA in History from GSU 2002. Legitimate intelligence and Watergate history, able to offer sober reality checks, facts, citations, to the debate while he completes his masters' degrees.

Writer / Historian.

Born 3/14/1962: Huntington, Cabell County, West Virginia. Outdoorsman.

Married to B.B.C Clark, Charleston S.C. 10/1/96 Parish of St. Michael.

Resides Atlanta, Georgia: Democrat. Anglican, Disciples of Christ.

Historian with an interest in intelligence and counter-intelligence circa 1956-66.

Map Lecturer, with radio and tv experience, auto-didactic and a compulsive reader.

Writer, married, Anglican, black sheep of an old Virginia family, southern bohemian writer

....Shanet Clark, Atlanta Georgia

I'm Shanet Clark

In 1979, I was the William Randolph Hearst / United States Senate Scholar ---

I was sent to Washington and quite literally recruited by the Federal departments and CIA: I have been inside the geodesic dome at Langley, and when I was there I asked hard questions about the missing plutonium the CIA lost in the Himalayas in the 1960's while trying to spy on China. The poor CIA Public Relations agent was stunned speechless, and a more senior officer took the microphone and said that I had "very good sources of information, the Indian government has taken full responsibility for that..." No job offer was forthcoming, and they never found the plutonium.

This was back in High School.

I studied political science at Marshall University, wrote for newspapers and had a series of radio and television on air jobs. I waited tables and tended bar in Lexington, Kentucky; Boston, San Francisco, and Madison, Wisconsin and I managed nice Italian restaurants like Camille's in Atlanta.

In 1999 I decided to go back to school and graduated Summa Cum Laude from Georgia State University in Atlanta with a BA in History in 2002.

When I took the Graduate Records Exam, a sort of SAT for college graduates,

I scored in the top one percent in the verbal area, the ninety-ninth percentile,

which was sweet vindication for a self-taught writer who had put up with a lot of crap from dimwits all his life! I dropped out the first time, because they taught me that education was indoctrination and behavioural socialization, but I returned when I felt I could use the system to my own advantage. In 1989 I helped Jack Herer write the book "The Emperor Wears No Clothes, Hemp for Paper, Fiber, Fuel and Food" and I was News Director of WMOQ FM in Athens, Georgia in 1996. I now have a full graduate fellowship to study history at Georgia State and I travel to present papers on political history to conferences around the country. I am active in the OAH,SHA,AHA and NCHE, history organizations. I am a fourteenth generation American, my direct ancestors came from England to Virginia in 1611 and I have WWII, Civil War and Revolutionary War ancestors. The Pilot, John Clark, was captured at Jamestown and held by the Spanish for four years, then was hired to pilot the Mayflower to Plymouth, Massachusetts. I know of no other person who had property granted to him at both Plymouth Mass. and Jamestown Virginia, and he is my great grandfather to the fourteenth generation. Seventh son of the seventh son, the long way. Also, I have hitch-hiked about 20,000 miles across America, walked from Santa Cruz to Monterey, I've been to 38 states and Jamaica and have experienced life to its fullest possible bittersweet extent.

I am a conventional Christian, an Episcopalian, married, no kids, and I was good friends with the Seventh Bishop of Atlanta, the late Judson Child. I subscribe to The New York Times, Playboy and New York magazine and I occasionally read the National Review and Soldier of Fortune, and am a fan of Robert Crumb and the Grateful Dead. I own over a thousand books, many from the eighteenth and nineteenth century. From various souces I now know certain things I am willing to share... but you too must be absolutely fearless to even begin to understand what it is that I will tell you about the death of John Kennedy.

James- as usual, great stuff. The Australian CIA coup article link and the Nugan Hand piece really ties together a bunch of loose ends.

What do you think of Tim's pictures of the Classic Marksman over on the triple underpass thread? Is it a shooter, and where exactly is he?

Also. Anybody got anything else on the career and murder of "C" Wm Colby, - the big cheese that spilled the beans?

Shanet

Tim

good work here,

the House committe was only relatively better

than the original FBI/ Warren investigation,

and certainly not definitive.

The prone witnesses, they dropped right away when the bullets flew,

so it may only be a few seconds between the limo clearing the frame and

the photo of the Classic Gunman at ease. I do make out a profile facing

downrange in the same position, so it is 1)firing position, 2)at ease (head Up) and then 3)eyes right, which is all logical. maybe 4) hand-off rifle into parking lot.

The strength of your case rests on the three core photos,

the gunman in head down firing stance, and then marksman at ease.

I'm having a little trouble orienting, but it seems this gunman would have been back behind zapruder and fired over both the Picket fence and the concrete retaining wall, correct? All that points to an

elevated gunman. Snipers do get up on stands, or fire from truckbeds... so the nine foot tall goliath objection is specious....is a vehicle showing to the gunman's right (our left)? it is something, the profile photo shows a landau roof better, but it would have been very high to top the fence, but there it is...we can see it, and we can see the rifle marksman, so the scale is okay....the rifle hand off photo...not as compelling...could be a lot of things...also everybody is running to the corner of the fence at the underpass...(Tosh says that's where echoes from the south knoll

may "ventriloquize" giving a false origin for the shots)....but overall, the original

photos you posted and the profile make me think a shooter was up in there...elevated, or in a high truckbed. OH I SEE, you think he fired over the concrete retaining wall only and then passed the rifle back over the higher picket fence? Is that it?

Then what is the "car hood" he's next to...?

Great stuff

shame we have to do the work, investigate a cold murder...

SHANET

I may not know everybody's reputation,

but that email was uncool.

shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet:

How about posting it? Gary seems to feel that it would be inappropriate for him to post to a forum, and I believe that is understandable given his position at the museum. He's a nice, helpful guy. Give him a call at the museum sometime on his dime (1-800) and you'll see. People have become frustrated with him over the years. He was an early and eager proponent of the Badgeman photogrammerty, and now he sometimes comes off like a Lone Nutter. Again, I attribute that to his position, which I believe requires the goodwill of the Dallas civic leaders.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay it wasn't that big a deal

But when I get an email with "Damned...Secret Service" in bold

type, it is unnerving. Like i say, i deleted it, but he just gave the

warren commission line that all the people on the underpass

were RR workers and the RR was private property, so the

1963 Secret Service couldn't tell them to leave. Which is lame.

He's at the Dallas museum, huh?

Like I say I don't know all the researchers, just what I've picked up

over the years........Hell, I think the movie Executive Action is important!

If Gary felt that was the best way to reach me and feels he can't post,

and you say he's okay, thats the end of it....moving on...

Shanet

(((((((((((((((((((((((((

Some Agents at ASIS believe Colby's troubles and his ultimate demise began with the dramas of the Nugan/Hand bank collapse here in Australia. When Frank Nugan was whacked, it began a series of murders where Agency assets running guns into the Middle East and some Sandline guys playing both sides were terminated. It's not a huge stretch that Colby was the last name on a very big hit list.

For a bit of background -

US military and CIA oversaw Far East drug smuggling for 20 years

From "American Society of Criminology" report by William J. Chambliss

...........

Thomas Clines, director of training in the CIA’s clandestine service, was a London operative for Nugan Hand who helped in the takeover of a London-based bank and was stationed at Long Cheng with Michael Hand and Theodore S. Shackley during the Vietnam War.

..........

Also working through the Nugan Hand Bank was Edwin F. Wilson, a CIA agent involved in smuggling arms to the Middle East and later sentenced to prison by a U.S. court for smuggling illegal arms to Libya. Edwin Wilson’s associate in Mideast arms shipments was Theodore Shackley, head of the Miami, Florida, CIA station. In 1973, when William Colby was made director of Central Intelligence, Shackley replaced him as head of covert operations for the Far East; on his retirement from the CIA William Colby became Nugan Hand’s lawyer.

.......................James Richards quoting Chambliss))))))))))))))))

Thank you, Jim.

I always appreciate your posts, good "horse sense"

The rundown you give matches up with what I remember about

Clines, Shackley, Wilson and the Nugan Hand Bank, a big heroin/arms venture.

The high level U.S generals and admirals, though, that is just shocking...

I didn't know Wm. Colby was mixed up with the Nugan Hand Bank.

That is a dangerous crowd.

might explain the canoe ---

What do you know about the 1977 (?) British government dissolving

the liberal Australian administration of Gough (?) ?

James Bamford and others think that was a intelligence thing...

something about the Australian government being hostile

to the big listening post down there...and supposedly the Brits pulled

rank within the Commonwealth and put a governor genral/viceroy

in place, one who would go along with the agencies better.

Am I on the right track with that?

Its not really JFK stuff, but

anything on that or on Wm. Colby please put on this thread.......

Shanet

PS -which twenty years? 1965-1985?

I may not know everybody's reputation,

but that email was uncool.

shanet