Shanet Clark

Fetzer's Film Hoax is available on the web in abbreviated form. It is not very convincing. He believes the entire Zapruder film is a special effects project, with pasted figures of JFK, Jackie and the Connallys placed over a limousine filmed empty, etc. It hinges on some less than convincing problems with the exact angle of the Stemmons Freeway sign and the lamp post. I reviewed the entire site carefully. While I believe the key Headshot Frames may have been doctored in a similar manner to the autopsy films, and the provenance and authenticity of the publicly available prints are highly problematic, the Fetzer theory is not supported by the evidence. This thread only makes sense if you have reqad the book or clicked through the HOAX site. I was not convinced that the film was one big special effect. I do believe the wounds may have been retouched, and that frames were removed to downplay the 1963 Secret Service braking to a near stop in the middle of the ambush.

Shanet

Great thread, this gathers in one place much puzzling evidence that appears in bits and pieces on other threads. Florer and Brading were obviously scripted with misinformation, and the H.L. Hunt office ties in with a long-held theory about him and his family being involved.

I think my conference paper will help to build a theoretical basis where such a large and co-ordinated event could happen.

Shanet

Jim

You have captured the essence of the Eisenhower era debate on military readiness, the BIG GUNS (nuclear strategy) at the expense of conventional weapons, stirred up anger in the defense establishment. Taylor was into ground war and especially co-operation between covert paramilitary CIA and defense department units. (Guenther Lewy, America in Vietnam). This blurring of the lines between "civilian" intelligence ops and military ops gave us Abu Ghraib, operation phoenix, iran contra, etc. etc.With the melding of CIA and Defense both can avoid any responsibility, and both sides can point the finger at the other when things go wrong.

I am in agreement with Tim about the importance of JFK's capitulation in Turkey as the silent, secret codicil of the Missile Crisis agreement. The public only saw the USSR freighters turning away from Cuba, the whole story took years to leak out. It, along with the incriminating evidence concerning JFK's private life, gave military officials reason to hate, exclude, and ultimately kill the president, I believe.

The Mullen Company was indeed the front PR firm Hunt worked for, and Robert Bennett was so deeply ensconced in counter-counter-counter intelligence he may have exposed Nixon to serious charges (ie Deep Throat).

The more you look at Watergate, the more ties to Dallas emerge. I still have serious reservations about jumping to the conclusion that the CIA brought down Nixon via the Hunt Burglaries at the Democratic National Committee. Did they prefer McGovern? Spiro Agnew? I think not. The murky nature of Hunt's loyalties and motivation make such speculation inevitable and the events are linked, but in ways we have yet to fully understand.

Shanet

Shanet

Eisenhowers massive nuclear buildup was done at the expense of cutting Army ground forces.  That is exactly what alienated Taylor from Eisenhower and led to his book, The Uncertain Trumpet.  Taylor wanted the forces that could fight "brush fire wars" and believed that the United States was moving in the wrong direction under Eisenhower.

Taylor made his point and got the position of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (under Kennedy) and his his full blown "brush fire war" after Kennedy's death.

Was the Presidency itself next?  (Read "Seven Days in May")

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What Changed?

The Vietnam War went into full swing.

The intermarriage of Defense and CIA went into overdrive, under the co-ordination of Maxwell Taylor and William Colby (operation phoenix).

Motive? Intimidate, Control and Manage the War Making capacity.

Remove from office someone hostile to and challenging MI/CIA prerogatives.

Read the twenty-fifth amendment, a document contemporary with the Warren Commission...It reads like a report of what happened 11/22/63.

Shanet

Tim Carroll. Great Paper. You are a careful historian, and this story suggests as much as it tells, but we have to be careful. Forum readers know that we are "allies" with similar interests and approaches, and I have a few general comments.

The connections between Dallas 11/22/63 and Watergate are intriguing, and I agree with you that "the whole bay of pigs thng" is a euphimism or code word for the Kennedy Assassination. I had always thought so and Bob Haldeman came out and said so explicitly in his dying efforts to restore his reputation. Having Hunt in the White House (what was in his safe?) and having Hunt hire Vergilio Gonzales, Martinez and Frank Sturgis for the Watrgate burglary shows some kind of high-pressure intimidation of Nixon, because these were angry Bay of Pigs veterans and long-time Cuban penetration commandos. Helms was certainly aware of the situation. United States Senator (R/Utah) Robert Bennett plays a role in both the assassination and the Watergate burglary, his ties to Hunt and McCord are verified, he had a CIA front office in DC and employed the principles in the burglary. I am very strongly inclined to agree with Jim Root's interpretation of the role of Maxwell Taylor, in the U-2 incident, the assassination and Vietnam War escalation. As far as IKE is concerned, don't let the Military Industrial Complex speech let him off the hook - for his massive nuclear arms build-up, covert assassinations and Bay of Pigs planning, he was a figurehead for Pennsylvania oil interests and a front front for the growing intermarriage of CIA paramilitary and Defense Department programs and cover. Ike and Nixon were no heroes to our democratic republican ideal of government...

Great paper, and it stimulated a good round of "collective intelligence".

Shanet

Tim

It is now known exactly how Joe and John Kennedy won in WVA.

Each county had a Slate, a list of preferred candidates. The Kennedy team

made sure each county sheriff who selected the slate got five to ten thousand dollars cash. SOme of this money came from Chicago, ie Giancana.

Shanet

Jim

I agree that Maxwell Taylor was a participant, but it went way beyond simply steering the limosine past the book store depository. That detour was made to put Kennedy in the path of the triangulated fire, not just to be under Oswalds window. As chief of staff he was a cabinet level figure as described in the 25th amendment and had access to intelligence on Kennedy's innermost habits behaviors and beliefs. He was in a position to propose Kennedy was technically incapacitated and unworthy of a security clearance, which I believe was the central cover/rationale for the well co-ordinated executive sanction in Dallas.

Shanet

Jim

I think you are onto something but it is not quite clear from that post.

Could you go over the Maxwell Taylor angle again?

Shanet

Anyone else read the New York Times this morning? Opium and Heroin production in Afghanistan is up 60% this year over last. Why is it that every time the United States initiates a war in Asia, the opium production skyrockets? Could it be that the colonels and military intelligence people have something to do with it? Lets see Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, El Salvador, Afghanistan, all major sources of white powder drugs.

Just asking...

[RE: Alfred McCoy, The Politics of Heroin In Southeast Asia]

Good point, John.

A larger issue is that he had just seen a man's head blown up about ten yards in front of him...he knew enough about Dulles, Lansdale, Dillon, Fitzgerald and the agencies to play along.

Speaking of confirming a conspiracy, Is everyone aware of the NAMEBASE.ORG?

Fascinating software. It gives you a graphic line chart connecting political figures to their contacts and contemporaries. I plugged in C.D.Dillon and got one nasty group of people and the Howard Hunt configuration was OUTRAGEOUS. It also then gives you links to any books known to contain the names of your target's contacts....its a real research tool for us...namebase.org....

Shanet

Looking forward to it.

I was an avid follower of current events/politics even as a freshman in high school and I remember the developing Bobby Baker scandal but did not remember how close the investigation was coming to LBJ until the info developed on your forum.

One point I would raise with respect to LBJ, though (and I was never a LBJ admirer) is that LBJ and Connally were very close (as the tapes also demonstrate). Somewhat hard to believe LBJ would orchestrate an assassination which would put his friend's life at risk. If LBJ had wanted to do it, couldn't he have found an opportunity other than the Dallas motorcade? And, didn't LBJ have enough info re JFK's sex life that it would have removed JFK from the ticket had it been released? As I recall, it was Baker who had introduced JFK to Ellen Rometsch.

Looking forward to your paper.

Tim Gratz

Good Point, the Connally wounding is one of the prime reasons that show that LBJ was carried along by the momentum of the larger effort, and not a sole initiator and beneficiary...my paper will present a theory that will shed light on this.

Thanks for all the great posts

Shanet

James

Which one is David Ferrie? I've only seen the bizarre photos of him with the painted eyebrows and men in drag, etc...but these guys look normal....

Shanet

I am serious---James with his photos, Tim the historian, John, Tosh, Ron, Al, myself; We could better ascertain the intentions and capabilities of hostile countries like Korea and Iran than the bureaucrats and Brown graduates communting around Northern Virginia right now. They look for political directions, not hostile intentions, ---of course critical, penetrating, independent minds like ours will never be welcome inside the "Cone of Silence" ---much to our nation's loss. People like Anthony Summers, Seymour Hersh and James Bamford are utterly blackballed from the security 'game' so, in effect, we have do their work for them, after the fact, and for free, out of patriotism and a sense of right and wrong...digging through de-classified material years after the fact, exposing their crimes, errors and falsifications.

Speaking of the agency, here's a file I pulled down from the web:

Name Roster of the Secret Establishment

There were so many "Yalies" in the OSS that Yale's drinking tune, the "Whiffenpoof Song", became an "unofficial" song of the OSS.

Many in the OSS were "Bonesmen" or belonged to the other Yale senior societies.

Robert Lovett ('18), Harriman's childhood friend, had been tapped into Skull & Bones by Prescott Bush's cell of '17 and was a director at Brown Brothers, Harriman. Again, from "George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography": "On October 22, 1945, Secretary of War Robert Patterson created the Lovett Committee, chaired by Robert A. Lovett, to advise the government on the post-World War II organization of U.S. intelligence activities.... The new agency would 'consult' with the armed forces, but it must be the sole collecting agency in the field of foreign espionage and counterespionage. The new agency should have an independent budget, and its appropriations should be granted by Congress without public hearings. Lovett appeared before the Secretaries of State, War, and Navy on November 14, 1945.... Lovett pressed for a virtual resumption of the wartime Office of Strategic Services (OSS).... The CIA was established in 1947 according to the prescription of Robert Lovett, of Jupiter Island."

Gaddis Smith, a history professor at Yale, said, "Yale has influenced the Central Intelligence Agency more than any other university, giving the CIA the atmosphere of a class reunion." And "Bonesman" have been foremost among the "spooks" building the CIA's "haunted house."

F. Trubee Davison ('18) was Director of Personnel at the CIA in the early years. Some of the other "Bonesmen" connected with the intelligence community are:

Sloane Coffin, Jr. ('49)

V. Van Dine ('49)

James Buckley ('44)

Bill Buckley ('50)

Hugh Cunnigham ('34)

Hugh Wilson ('09)

Reuben Holden ('40)

Charles R. Walker ('16)

Yale's 'unofficial' Secretary of War, Robert D. French ('10)

Archibald MacLiesh ('15)

Dino Pionzio ('50), CIA Deputy Chief of Station during Allende

overthrow

William and McGeorge Bundy

Richard A. Moore ('3?)

Senator David Boren ('63)

Senator John Kerry ('66)

...and, of course, George Herbert Walker Bush. Bush tapped Coffin,

who tapped Buckley.

Some other prominent Bonesmen include:

Henry Luce ('20), Time-Life

John Thomas Daniels ('14), founder Archer Daniels Midland

Gifford Pinchot ('89), President Theodore Roosevelt's chief forester

Frederick E. Weyerhaeuser ('96)

Harold Stanley ('08), founder of Morgan Stanley, investment banker

Alfred Cowles ('13), Cowles Communication

Henry P. Davison ('20), senior partner Morgan Guaranty Trust

Thomas Cochran ('04) Morgan partner

Senator John Heinz ('31)

Pierre Jay ('92), first chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New

York

George Herbert Walker, Jr. ('27), financier and co-founder of the NY

Mets

Artemus Gates ('18), President of New York Trust Company, Union

Pacific, TIME, Boeing Company

William Draper III (50), the Defense Department, UN and

Import-Export Bank

Dean Witter, Jr.('44), investment banker

Senator Jonathan Bingham ('36)

Potter Stewart ('36), Supreme Court Justice

Senator John Chaffe ('47)

Harry Payne Whitney ('94), husband of Gertrude Vanderbilt,

investment banker

Russell W. Davenport ('23), editor Fortune Magazine, created Fortune

500 list

Evan G. Galbraith ('50), Ambassador to France and Managing Director

of Morgan Stanley

Richard Gow ('55), president Zapata Oil

Amory Howe Bradford ('34), husband of Carol Warburg Rothschild and

general manager for the New York Times

C. E. Lord ('49), Comptroller of the Currency

Winston Lord ('59), Chairman of CFR, Ambassador to China and

assistant Secretary of State in the Clinton administration

Ever since Nixon re-established America's political relationship

with China, many of our ambassadors to that country have been

Bonesmen, including George Bush, the first Chief U. S. Liaison

Officer to the Peoples Republic of China.

These are just the "name" guys, corporate boards and international banking and law firms are full of Skull and Bones members who names aren't as well known.

This is disturbing. I wouldn't call them Illuminati, but rather an inbred elite power center hostile to democratic representative government.

J. Edgar Hoover used to orally communicate with Clyde Tolson, too.

John,

There are some very serious issues involved here. First, in James Bamford's PRETEXT FOR WAR, a high ranking CIA official is quoted as telling another large staff meeting that their responsibility was to provide the President with the information he needed to carry out his policy of War in Iraq. Many CIA agents were shocked at this politicization of the intelligence gathering process. Tenet and Powell lying to the United Nations and George Bush lying to the nation (Cincinatti speech)were the result. Porter Goss is a political loyalist and was a very lame watchdog. The politicization, or pre-conceived conclusions, at CIA is very likely to leave us blind-sided again. I think the pendulum has swung too far toward a safe, risk-averse, timid CIA, one where having agents on the ground in Iraq circa 2001 was illegal, where Pakistan and India could build and detonate nuclear weapons without the CIA knowing, and where Al Quaeda could meet in Malaysia, infiltrate the U.S. and carry out multiple Hijackings. Bureaucratic non-entities sit in their offices reading transcripts while hostile forces organize and act. The CIA ain't what it used to be, I almost would rather have Colby and Helms in power than the lame shirkers and lapdogs up there now...we researchers do a better job than they do, because we don't have blinders on. We don't have to follow a script and worry what Rummy and Cheney will think of our conclusions......

Shanet

Great thread---I've got a good one. About ten years ago I was a paid tutor in the drop-out prevention program in Kentucky. I worked for a literacy foundation and we taught the roughest discipline problems, tenth and eleventh graders (15-16), and they had many F grades, skipped 80 days a year, pregnant, etc. None of them were allowed in their regular classes, so I got them. Every Friday we had special guests who talked about their professions. One week we had Rappers talk to the class, and this disgusted the Ph.D. in charge, so next Friday I was on my own when we had an Author come in. The Author was on a book tour and had written "Ranch-hands are my Weakness" a popular book about her promiscuity. I will paraphrase:

"It's great being a writer, you make lots of money and get to fly around. I met a man at a party and told him about my book, and the next thing I knew I had a book in print and it was a big best seller. On the plane here I was sitting next to a young man, about your age, and I asked him what he did. He said he had dropped out of school to become a male prostitute! I meet the most interesting people now that I am a writer...he was very sweet and good looking."

Opening her book she began to read to my class:

"Buffalo skins or blankets? I realized he was asking me what I wanted to sleep on, and I said Buffalo Skins. He climbed on top of me. It is so glorious to be F%#@ed by a cowboy, with their hard skin and thin legs, he was on top of me, F%#@ing me harder and harder, then the phone rang and I could hear the caller leave a message, she was jealous, she knew I was F%#@ing her cowboy and that made me feel even better as I spread my legs wider....."

The class was frozen in shock. All I could do was glare at them. Don't laugh, my face said to them, don't even giggle. They sat quietly until the Author left.

True Story.... Later, my paychecks were running three weeks late and I went to the school board to find out what was going on and they told me I wasn't an employee. It turns out the Ph.D. was paying me in Purchase Orders and I never got my final months pay........what a nightmare...

1) Destruction of Evidence. Windshield, Hosty Note, Autopsy Notes, President's Brain.

2) Nature of Oswald's life, defection, counter-defection, relationship to DeMorenschild, Cuban groups, altered photos, Walker incident, etc.

3) Secret Service failures, detour, slow crawl, lack of running boards, drinking party, overpass, slow response.

4) Witnesses murdered.

5) Ballistics.

Now this gets to the heart of the debate. What happened and who was involved? Wim's link reminded me of the FBI memo's central assumption, that George Bush of the CIA was a known authority on the mood of the Cuban exile community in Miami in late 1963. That is a fact. John and Al have good points, but we must not bend the evidence to what we EXPECT a covert executive sanction to be, we must look at what actually happened. This is about POWER. The fact that the lookalikes were there means they were participants, brazen activists. The Secret Service motorcade took a sweeping side street detour, slowed to a crawl, slower than 10 miles an hour, and then volley after volley struck the President, the Governor and the vehicle....planes flew in and out, witnesses were murdered, people told improbable tales, so what are we to make of that? The people who appear in the photos were showing solidarity, and complicating the job of researchers for years to come. They were participant witnesses, sucked into compromising proximity, much like the members of P2, who gave Licio Gelli compromising material about themselves...to be in Dealey was a sign of POWER, to be in the know, to be there when the changing of the guard occurred. Sure, a tight squad of deniable and expendable mercenaries would be Standard Operating Procedure, but that is not what happened...they all shared responsibility, just like they would share power after the renegade Kennedy was eliminated...this was theater, intimidation and a grand public power play, and the more the merrier. The lookalikes really do look like the principals, and GHW Bush is one of the principals. By drawing in a large group and mildly exposing all of them, the planners showed their power, their cunning, their reach...we wish it hadn't happened, we may even wish that only one guy did it, or a team of angry CUbans or Mafiosos did it, but that is just not the case. The evidence shows otherwise...

Shanet

(it must be late November again)

Wim thinks EVERYBODY killed John Kennedy. Just Kidding, Wim, but you do have a scattershot approach...George Bush was certainly CIA long before Gerald Ford made him DCI, and when he ran the United States United Nations Mission in New York he was heavily involved in wiretapping, same in China as Charge D'affaire. The case linking Bush to Dallas is actually very weak, but a bit suggestive. I don't have the citation in front of me, but there was a memo to J.Edgar Hoover dated 11/23/63 that stated that a CIA employee named George Bush had called FBI to give information about the JFK killing, and the federales bent over backwards to claim that it was another George Bush! They pinned the FBI memo on a George Bush who did coastline surveys, and when reporters got ahold of that George Bush, he had no idea what they were talking about. That is fact. Not much evidence for a capital murder conviction, but something...some of you will know the facts about this rumor, was the Bay of Pigs invasion code-named Operation Zapata? Was a support ship named the Barbara? Because those two items are tied to the rumor/theory that George Bush Sr. was part of the invasion of Cuba, hence, CIA...whatever the facts, certainly GHW Bush was put in place at Langley to clean up the mess Colby had made, and he shut down the leaks.

One more thing about George Senior, he was Chairman of the Republican National Committee during Watergate. Where do you think the 1970's illegal campaign contributions went? Bush emerged in 1979 to challenge Reagan and Carter with a flush bankroll, which I think he rolled over from the Nixon/Mitchell/Hunt days....

Shanet

((great photo Jack, that does look like the preppy president))

Speed kills...

Good thread, I pulled up more Loran Hall material just by using the search engine.

The HSCA was interested in him, to say the least.

Shanet

John,

I thought this list was an extrememly helpful guide, and I will dig into the books. I would add LEGEND: the secret world of Lee Harvey Oswald and PLAUSIBLE DENIAL by Mark Lane, (because of the Howard Hunt libel trial coverage). I cut my teeth on Mark Lane, Joesten, Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Mark Lane and Fletcher Prouty back in the day...Best Evidence, High Treason, Crossfire...so your list was a welcome update. Of course anyone on the Forum should also know about the SPARTACUS website and A.J. Weberman's photo evidence site.

Thanks for posting these titles.

Shanet

John,

Of course you realize if this Carole Tyler was Bobby Baker's secretary and an intimate acquaintance of Senator George Smathers AND Mary Jo Kopechne's roommate it adds weight to the alternate hypothesis you gave us concerning Kopechne's death. She knew too much. I had a hard time accepting the "Howard Hunt did it to discredit Ted Kennedy" theory of Chappaquiddick, but actually the scenario you painted on another thread explains some anomalies about the events of that night, only the bad guys weren't Ted and his pals, they were the bad guys from Watergate and Dallas fame...very interesting...

I think the photos we use add to our legitimacy and add a human element which quietly adds substance to our civil discourse, and they also discourage anonymous attacks, deliberate misinformation and reckless disregard for others, which can easily occur if you only see other people online as "cold type."

Once again I support John Simkin in his efforts to maintain our credibility.

I have two suggestions.

Please be very specific when you title a new thread, so it really serves to index that topic.

Also, the long, long, long posts are unbearable and they often relate to some minor argument that is not of general interest.

Please be specific when starting a thread and keep your posts succinct and interesting....people really do turn to us for information, so lets respect them, too.

Steve, Jim and John

Thanks for the good feedback. A few thoughts on this so far: The WWII OSS Italy was linked to Maxwell Taylor, who is on my short list of Kennedy's entrenched and politically prominent killers. Also, the OSS Italy circa June 1945 is exactly where the Il Duce Mannlicher Carcannos probably came from...the oil companies, who all depended on John J. McCloy for unified legal advice, were interested in Algeria and the OAS, this ties in to the HL Hunt, Clint Murchison theories.

The tentacles of Gehlen, Licio Gelli and Allen Dulles permeate any understanding of the 1945-1965 historical period. Thanks for the Admiral Darlan lead. The Christian David information is interesting, and this whole angle (OAS, French assassins) may be disinformation, only tangential or a waste of time...it is certainly not my main theory...but the international culture of fascism and organized crime corrupting capitalist national governments (especially the intelligence and paramilitary) in the period 1945-1965 is very important to understanding the context of John Kennedy's murder. I've read Yallop's "In God's Name," and it is pretty obvious John Paul I was killed by corrupt Vatican Bank figures tied to Gelli and the Propaganda Due (P2).

In counter-intelligence nothing is what it appears to be, and the weird reversals and agent provocateur actions described above actually make sense in the world of double-agency and pre-emptive violence.

Please add more information about France, Algeria, Italy or international assassins to this thread, specifically, was DeGaulle's 1962 attempted murder linked to Dallas?

Shanet

You all are talking about the OAS, right?

James, please give some more detail on all this. This is the first I've heard of any tie-in of Fiorini/Sturgis to the OAS. The Jean Souetre material is very interesting, please post more on the new Degaulle thread....

Have you read FRIC-FRAC by Albert Spaggiari? Spaggiari robbed the Bank of Nice in the largest bank robbery up to that time by digging through the sewers under Nice, France. Old OAS members were on Spaggiari's team, and it was a real Ocean's Eleven type caper...or Sewers Eleven, anyway ... FRIC-FRAC is a great book, and Spaggiari's still at large. Maybe he'll join the FORUM.....

I want to start a thread about a couple of questions I've asked elsewhere. First, what do you all know about the 1962 OAS attempt on the life of French President George DeGaulle? Was a similar plan used? Have any French Intelligence sources said anything about a tie-in with the Cabarra (sp) hit attempt?

Didn't David Ferrie fly a no-name French (OAS) sniper out of the country after Dallas? Who is Christian David? I've come across his name in connection with all this. What about Frenchy? Was he really a French OAS right-winger? On a related topic I am interested in the web story that the Mannlicher-Carcanno was not a sporting goods surplus Italian rifle, but a gun made for Mussolini's palace guard.

Basically I want to know more about the European, Algerian and Fascist links....

When HRH Diana Spencer was mysteriously killed in that Paris tunnel, there was some evidence that a similar mishap had been planned for (i believe) Milosevic in Yugoslavia, a tunnel accident was an off the shelf plan...could something similar connect the 1962 DeGaulle attempted murder to Dallas?