Shanet Clark

Ron

He IS still in place for a long time...

John's photo file can help understand this thread.

the Aftermath photos, to me, show men in suits,

spread out, and calmly patrolling Dealey after the fact...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKphotographs.htm

thats the location of the photo files of Dealey after the shootings---check it out

Shanet

Way to go Roy, should have known you would turn it up.

As far as James question goes though,  to really evaluate it requires a

concrete time line.  Could someone give us the date in which

the photo was taken (was it after or before the Walker shooting

attack...before I think?).   Obviously it did not have the liscence tag

scrapped off until in the first few days after the assassination as somebody

had to have time to take the number down and then do the investigation.

Any clue on when it got tampered with? 

Certainly it seems pretty stupid to intentionally tamper with evidence after

it has already served its purpose?  Or is it just possible that Mr. Klihr could

have been involved in the bogus attack on Walker.  possibly at Walker's

behest.  We know that later on the DPD evolved their Oswald shot at Walker

scenario to help make the picture of Oswald as a mad rifleman stick;  perhaps

at that time they might have regretted having anything in hand that could

have pointed in some other direction...raw speculation of course.

And of does anybody have more detail on Mr. Klihr and his the nature

of his association with Walker.....is there any chance we have a public

morals issue here rather than conspiracy?   As I recall DPD did arrest

Walker at some later date on a morals charge...I had a DPD Reserve

intel officer go over the details of that,  just can't remember the date.

-- a very interesting topic for sure,  Larry

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Larry

Why would you post a McAdams website?

Gary Mack helped you?

Gary Mack sent me a hysterical e-mail at home

with "That bridge was damned crowded and the Secret Service let it happen"

as the SUBJECT line.....and he claimed everybody on the bridge was railroad workers and the 1963 secret service couldn't do anything about it...

I don't appreciate that....I deleted it as Spam...

next time i won't even read it first,,,,,,,,,,,

If Gary Mack wants to talk to me do it over the Forum, not on my private email...

I believe Tosh...the eradicated license plate would show that Walker was with

was CAPTAIN SIEWELL from MILITARY INTELLIGENCE stationed at

Dallas Love Field..........

Shanet

William Colby, Director of the CIA once said "Believe me, if the CIA had anything to do with the murder of our president I would have discovered it in the early seventies and I would have revealed it — I revealed a lot of other things."

William Colby would later die of hypothermia and drowning, canoeing in the middle of the night, at his home in Rockpoint MD. He did not mention any canoeing plans to his wife, nor was it normal behavior for him to engage in nocturnal caneoing adventures. Colby's body is not immediately located.

William Colby's body was then found after the canoeing accident, lacking his usual lifevest. It was found 20 yards from the canoe, after the area had been thoroughly searched multiple times.

Was Colby saying anything to people around him around the time of his death that would suggest the opposite of his above statement?  Or was there another reason for his demise?

Perhaps its paranoia but whenever someone in intelligence says anything about the Kennedy Assassination, he seems suspicious to me.

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Thank you, Paul

I mentioned Wm. Colby on another thread.

William Colby is a very interesting figure.

Guenter Lewy's book "America in Vietnam" tells the story of William Colby

developing the Phoenix Operation, which is generally believed to be a

mass murder program which liquidated about 20,000 vietnamese, mainly Viet Cong, but also anybody caught in the middle, accused spies, greedy

opium people in Saigon, etc.etc.etc., Bill Colby then worked his way up

to dep.dir.plans and eventually DCI, director of central intelligence and the CIA, after Helms.

This was the most hated man in the "community" because he gave up the

""family jewels""...he testified to Congress on hundreds of illegal ops, he

admitted that the agencies opened mail, listened to phones, plotted coups, spied on american newspeople, infiltrated domestic political groups, etc.

He really had a change of heart and spilled his guts to the Church committee in

late 1974 and 1975.

I call the Colby "C" -- like in james bond, "C" -- the big cheese.

Well "C" the "Big Cheese" spilled the beans.....

He did disappear on an unscheduled canoe trip near his home.

His body wasn't found until nine days later.

He may have been the victim of a foreign agency,

but his information was thirty years old.

The quote above is typical "If I had known, I would have told"

I don't think he was killed because of what he knew about Dallas 11/22/63

I believe (based on the evidence) that he was killed in retribution

for testifying openly and honestly to Congress about the other

intelligence excesses he knew about. He single handedly blew the

cover off of numerous MI domestic ops and CIA charter violations,

he was part of the immediate post-watergate reform momentum,

this included the House Assassination Committee and the Church Committee.

Poor bastard, he really came to believe this is a democratic republic.

If anyone knows anything substantive about Colby's death,

please post it on this thread.................he got whacked big time.....

Shanet

The main problem I see with that South Knoll trajectory is that JFK was in the back seat.  Shooting over the windshield but under the crossbar is a very narrow range.  Otherwise, tracking the shot would be optimal from the South Knoll. (Tim Carroll)

Tim,

I take your points.

Until this thread, I had not even pondered that a shot would have come from this direction. I have never been to Dealey Plaza so I guess I'm talking through my hat, but if I were looking for positions to set up sniper teams, the indicated spots below (rough proximity) would be the best. Then again ...

Also one could add the TSBD sniper's perch even though that's probably not an ideal location but a necessary one.

James

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James,

I have not been able to get over one shooting location in particular.

Tim

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Tim

These photos --

of the grassy knoll pergola fence position

-- are more detailed than the Moorman photo's ambiguous "Badgeman" image.

In the first image, with the limo still in position, he is head down and in firing position;

In the second image, (a little underexposed, compared with the first),

with the witnesses prone in front of him, he is now at ease,

with his head up, Tim these are two very important photos....

The individual here has had NRA or military training, good marksmanship form.

Firm sling pressure, you understand,

this is a photo of a marksman, with a rifle,

taking the shooting stance...

with the limo directly in front of him...............

Shanet

Thanks Jim, I agree with Tim.

Thats a great song

Lyrics by Allen Ginsburg and performed by Rage Against the Machine...

Don't forget "Abraham, Martin and John"

and then there is the punk rock "Dead Kennedys" band...

there is the Blue Oyster Cult song

"When the bullet hits the bone"

and U2's "Bullet the Blue Sky" on the general theme...

but the best was

"I shouted out who killed the Kennedys?

when after all it was you and I"

jagger/richards

..........shanet

Just an aside on one part of your post, Shanet

In one of Tosh's int'vus over years I remember reading a question put to him similar to your's.    He answered the way anyone would.  I think gist of reply: If it turned out he was unwittingly involved it was unfortunate (for lack of better word) A turn of events he could not singley control at any point in the event. 

....................................The strangest part of this flight to Redbird to me is that it carried Roselli.  A man who later had something to tell the commission in DC and was prevented from doing so.  We know Roselli used this protection before by drawing government into a testimony.  That is important and confounding. 

..................

The men who lived tend to bear the weight of all the others gone before them. 

Just my humblest of opinions         Chris Cox

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Chris

You'll notice I defend Tosh on another thread, and like I told John,

I'm glad he's with us........

This has been a great thread, I've read it over twice, and your stuff is sharp.

On David Morales, Tosh shows that his sources say he stayed in Miami,

but is that a good picture of him with "Tracy Barnes" on the corner of Main?

Thats what this thread is supposed to answer,

did D. Morales plan the event, and was he in Dallas on 11/22/63?

Howard Hunt went to civil trial and lost over this same kind of question........

Shanet

As we know.. Walker played a role in the assassination of Kennedy.

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If you make statements like this you have to expect being challenged by other researchers. What evidence have you got that suggests Walker was involved in the assassination of JFK?

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Right, john,

general edwin walker apparently played a role in the frame-up of

oswald, which is really a distinct activity from the assassination.

Lots of people were involved in constructing the phony PROGRAM devoted to shaping the strange and unlikely public identity of the counter-defector,

lee oswald ....

shanet

Shanet,  I'm trying to deliver the background so that we can all be in the

same place discussing it.

For myself I too think it a little convenient that Oswald kept building an

evidence trail against himself - yet was pretty sophisticated in using PO boxes,

aliases,  fake ID etc.  Did he bury the rifle and dig it up later,  was in a panic over the photos and tampered with one yet saved them all....

However I think we still have to be straight about the history of the photo

and when it was tampered with and there is a factual trail here.  Where you go from there is another story,  I was not offering conclusions only "impressions" which are suggested by the record.

-- Larry

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Obviously, Oswald was acting like what he was a low level military intelligence asset who was all mixed up in counter-intelligence work as a defector-and a counter-defector to the USSR, and then after they got him to jump through so many hoops, counter-intelligence program-wise, posing, meeting people, joining demonstrations they could put him up as both an anti-communist and a communist.......when they needed a patsy, for a big job. The photo is just the entry into the murky world of the Edwin Walker story and the only evidence that Oswald was a political assassin is the report tied to that bunk photo...........what do you got on the backyard series of pictures?

Shanet

....thats what I'm talkin about...

JOHN

Wasn't this the John Birch Society Thread?

The John Birch Society, now that group was the core of the right wing political support

for Barry Goldwater in 1964.

Militants were rampant, and there actual ideology was a conspiracy theory, bankers, elites, you know, anti-semitic super patriots. Well, they formed the very core of the post Goldwater force called Ronald Reagan. With the help of their compatriots and followers at YAF, young americans for freedom, the John Birchers moved into Reagan, tax-cut, gun, militia and especially, Ronald Reagan... in California. While I know they had extremist members, but they didnt kill Kennedy.

Some got tipped off, or minor roles, but not structurally, the John Birch Society, no.

Shanet

So I am too understand Oswald framed himself because the evidence photo was missing Siewell MI's (or Klihr"s) actual licence plate number. Nothing on either thread shake the unstated premise of the question I asked in first place to Harry.

Im saying that Edwin Walker was part of plot to make oswald look like a guy who shot at political leaders. Listen, Oswald's wife and girlfriends' testimony is worthless especially Marina, she was programmed like a car radio by George baron De Morenschildt

If a super crazy doctor strangelove general - like the seven days in may dudes - if General Edwin Walker called in a lame attempted shooting and it got pinned on lee oswald and the picture of the area was "sanitized" come on..... that's just too convenient by half, now isn't it? Nothing is shaking that at all, guys.

Shanet

(....working for Dulles....I can understand that, as a theme)

The militant reactionary political opposition to John Kennedy,

powerfully placed individuals, working under wartime pretexts;

i.e. the military industrial complex's own self-appointed 'technicians'.....

working with Alan Dulles and Douglass Dillon.

That's what researchers call a supernumerative variable-

"the government"

Jools

read the 25th amendment,

it was written in 1965,

and it is germane to the Warren Commission

shanet

Tosh is a nickname...in no way is this prejudicial. Tosh is breaking the south knoll railroad triangulation angle, an eyewitness... and giving us chapter and verse on the zero rifle executive action, on the CIA 's Tracy Barnes, William Harvey and old-line JM/WAVE. Did you notice the reference to the early support for castro?

His knowledge of the backchannel peace negotiation actors, the risks, Ruby in Cuba... Really, now that's old school...Tosh means the real thing, man....

Shanet

(Note to readers=Fidel Castro fell down on stairs and broke his knee yesterday)

I'm reminded of the time George HW Bush puked all over the rostrum in Japan,

that marked the end of an era, or at least his era...

I guess all the Sandoz and Exploding Cigars finally got to the long-winded one.

Shanet

I think it makes sense to learn about any system that dominates large areas of the world, its peoples and its resources.

The British Empire is worth studying because, in a way, it is the meeting place of the old world and the new or developing world. And it embraces all human life - trade, politics, art, war, travel, sport...

It would be hard to try to understand India or Canada or Australia today without some sense of how they came to be as they are.

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I would recommend

"COLONIALISM AND ITS FORMS OF KNOWLEDGE:

THE BRITISH IN INDIA" by Bernard S. Cohn (NJ, Princeton U.Press; 1996)

...Linguists in India and the cultural indoctrination of the Subcontinent by language and norms imported from the British Isles........

Shanet

Quoting John Simkin

(((((((((I have produced a list of annotated websites on Black History. These can be found at

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REVhistoryRR3.htm

Other web links you might find useful include:

William Davidson

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRdavidson.htm

William Cuffay

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/CHcuffay.htm

Walter Tull

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWtull.htm

Dadabhai Naoroji

Mancherjee Bhownaggree

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/PRbhown.htm

Mary Seacole

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REseacole.htm

Olaudah Equiano

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Sequiano.htm

Ottabah Cugoano

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAScugoano.htm

Zamba Zembola

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASzamba.htm

Frederick Douglass

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASdouglass.htm

John, Equiano and Cugoano are critically important American writers, both slaves. I would place there value at the very top of cultural and literary history narratives... they should teach them in High School....

John

Of course Britain didn't join us in the Vietnam War...they weren't fools.

The British were the colonial force in Basra and Mosul and were

assigned the protectorate after WWI...having them in the war is like having the

French joining as allies in a war for, say, Algeria...old colonial scores to settle.

Two recent things in the news...yesterday in an article in the NYT on the

Sinclair TV film on John Kerry's military experience and Senate

testimony, Guenter Lewy's "America in Vietnam" was mentioned

as a source on American atrocities. Lewy was at Oxford, a strong

containment advocate, and downplayed U.S. violations. THis book

has a lot of good material on Wm. Colby and Operation Phoenix, though...

the best syllabus level work on Vietnam War is probably George Herring's

"Americas Longest War: US and Vietnam 1950-1975" lots of leads in both books.

Today's NYTimes has an article on over 3000 newly released transcripts of

Kissinger's talks with reporters while in power. The focus is on the

obsequious sucking up of Marvin Kalb, Jimmy Reston, Hugh Sidey and Ted Koppel when they were on the phone to Kissinger, unaware he was taping ang selectively

transcribing these "LEAKS" ....

PS

Did you know "asselike" is a Classical Latin term for a fawning underling?

"""Butt-kissing''' is just the back formation.

Also "Mufuque" is the 19th century Central African term for stubborn person,

as noted by David Livingston (1853)....

""@#%$*&%$#@%&"" is simply the grotesque back formation...

Some unusual history and current events for you and the group...

Shanet

To all

This 11/22 conference would be a good opportunity to bring new people into the

discussion---maybe we could quietly solicit papers from any qualified

authors and sources we know---I would love to hear more from Barr McClellan,

Oliver Stone, Mark Lane, E.J. Epstein, John Dean, Wm. Colby's family, etc....

just a suggestion....

Shanet

(struggling to put it all together)

If he was on my flight then he would have been part of the abort.

Tosh

Nothing personal, but I think the main problem people may have with your story is that you say your CIA JM/WAVE task was to "abort" the assassination...it looks more like you were sent to Dealey Plaza to observe, participate in and/or be implicated yourself... and you helped Johnny Roselli get in to town and you may have helped the shooters or other players get out....see what I mean?

Were you authorized to use deadly force to "abort"?

What if you had seen a shooter in place - would you have used deadly force to prevent the killing?

I think a lot of people might think you're hedging, and claiming good intentions after the fact.

If that's what they told you, did you have any doubts about the task?

Shanet

Tim

I agree, these two diagrams show what Tosh Plumlee described witnessing.

Please read my Edited post above, under the underpass photos (aftermath crowd).

Jim. thanks for the photo from the south knoll point of view.

Triangulation, etc.

Shanet

Larry

That's about what my thoughts on Walker were, when I asked about the photo of the car on the other Thread. Thanks, to Tosh for volunteering the Siewell information. Georgia has the best polished granite quarries in the US, so a GA tombstone company is suppporting detail. Great thread.

Shanet in Atlanta.

Way to go Roy, should have known you would turn it up.

As far as James question goes though,  to really evaluate it requires a

concrete time line.  Could someone give us the date in which

the photo was taken (was it after or before the Walker shooting

attack...before I think?).  Obviously it did not have the liscence tag

scrapped off until in the first few days after the assassination as somebody

had to have time to take the number down and then do the investigation.

Any clue on when it got tampered with? 

Certainly it seems pretty stupid to intentionally tamper with evidence after

it has already served its purpose?  Or is it just possible that Mr. Klihr could

have been involved in the bogus attack on Walker.  possibly at Walker's

behest.  We know that later on the DPD evolved their Oswald shot at Walker

scenario to help make the picture of Oswald as a mad rifleman stick;  perhaps

at that time they might have regretted having anything in hand that could

have pointed in some other direction...raw speculation of course.

And of does anybody have more detail on Mr. Klihr and his the nature

of his association with Walker.....is there any chance we have a public

morals issue here rather than conspiracy?  As I recall DPD did arrest

Walker at some later date on a morals charge...I had a DPD Reserve

intel officer go over the details of that,  just can't remember the date.

-- a very interesting topic for sure,  Larry

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Tim

good posting...I agree with all those specifics, I had forgotten how tight Roselli and Maheu were...I'm still having trouble moving Hughes/Maheu up into a more directly causative role...just too many others ahead of them in line...and Larry O'brien/Hughes may have been a red herring thrown over the Watergate burglary.....I know Hughes PR/security man Robert Bennett had ties to Hunt and CIA (see Hougan's Secret Agenda and Colodny's Silent Coup) ... Hughes was a military contractor that benefitted from escalation in LAOS, CAMBODIA and VIETNAM, helicopters and tools, I believe, and the Glomar sunken Soviet sub hunt he participated in definitely shows a close association of CIA/MI and Hughes circa 1973...what a crazy bastard, and to be that powerful...always like your posts, thanks also for the overview on Wm. Tosh Plumlee's experience, that was very helpful.

ps. Those morgue pix are surely compromised, but thanks for refreshing my memory. Its all ambiguous, and meant to be.

Shanet

The military industrial complex is a theoretical political structure too large to act as a single agent in a murder. It is better to say that John Kennedy's Militant Reactionary Political Opposition (both in and out of offices of power) conspired on secret and spurious grounds, to carry out a coup d'etat. This has become the unspeakable truth of American Political violence and it is not a subject for polite discourse or civil society, apparently.

We now have a large number of responsible characters and we should link them in the overarching political structure described in 1965 in the Twenty-Fifth Amendment.

Harry

Did Gen. Edwin Walker fire at his own house and call it in?

What's up with the missing license plate number in the photo of Walker's house? Did Milteer get his information from the Birchers?

These are topics I am interested in.

Shanet in Atlanta

That bridge was damned crowded and the Secret Service let it happen.

shanet