Shanet Clark

Welcome aboard.....

Be critical, hold us to good evidence, and you might be swayed.

A british barrister, Fenton Bresler, wrote "WHO KILLED JOHN LENNON(st. Martins 1989)"

Briefly, Mark David Chapman was involved in the YMCA's international refugee camps, volunteered to go to camps in Lebanon, was influenced by an agent of operation PHEONIX who ran the YMCA int'l refugee program. Chapman's whereabouts before the murder in NYC are unknown and the whole "catcher in the rye" angle and the fact that chapman did not flee point to sinister influences.

Read Bresler's book.

In the upcoming online conference I hope to present a simplifying theory, loyal to OCCAM"S RAZOR (or the LAW of Parsimony)......

Shanet

Whilst we all know there is simply too much evidence pointing towards a conspiracy for it not to be taken extremely seriously, could it also be that some people are taking things a bit too far.  From reasonable and logical theories to some more far fetched and unlikely theories.  The grassy knoll, the south knoll, the underpass, the curbside sewer, the CIA, the Mafia, the FBI, the Cubans, the Oil conglomerates, George Bush, Ronald McDonald and so on.

I'm not discrediting any of these theories, (ok maybe Ronald McDonnald), but could it be that it is simply more interesting for there to be a complicated, highly covert, multi-layered, inter-woven tangled web of conspiracy?  And that a simple answer or one of relative simplicity would never satisfy the appetites of theorists and people who enjoy researching and studying topics from infinite angles?

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Welcome to the JFK Forum. Although most of us believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, we very much disagree about who was responsible. This is in itself one of the problems. The people who planned the assassination also planted a lot of false evidence that pointed people in so many directions.

If we are ever the discover our past we need to examine our “secret history”. This will inevitably lead to you being called paranoid or a conspiracy nut. However, I think it is our duty to continue with the struggle. Until this battle is won, we will not be able to experience a fully democratic political system.

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I've read that silencers and small caliber is the CIA, but larger caliber is the mob.

Multiple calibers and weapons mean multiple "offended parties" (like Dallas).Johnny Roselli's hit (in a barrel with the fishes) looks like the Mafia,

while Giancana's death is more the MO of the agency. But they learned from each other and used each others assets.

The key thing about Mooney (sam giancana) is that he felt he had made a deal with Joe Kennedy and Jack---the Chicago vote went to JFK in 1960 if the Feds would get off his back. When Bobbie Kennedy went gangbusters on the mob, Giancana was furious, and it is widely surmised he sent hitmen to Dallas. There are almost too many, now, with Noccolletti, Files and Charles Harrelson implicated.

Thats when he makes the priceless analogy "the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing" about the US government, meaning he had contact with the CIA to hit Castro-- but that didn't stop the Justice Dept. from pursuing him. The general conclusion that between Roselli (LA) Giancana (CHICAGO) and Trafficante (TAMPA) only Trafficante survived the House investigation is true, and Trafficante was all about CUBA so he was in bed with Phillips, etc. Blakey certainly took the easier way out by pinning so much on the Mafia, an easy target compared to the other mysterious highly placed murderers that haunted the case............

great thread---I'd never heard of CD JACKSON.

Shanet

2)  Some of the folks associated with the actual tactical activities against Castro or in Cuba may have decided they didn't want Roselli dropping names,  or Giancana for that matter -  after all the barrel thing and the shots around the mouth are as much TV Mob signatures as anything else, almost like somebody was trying to suggest the mob was behind it.

-- Larry

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RE-EDITED --THIS POST IS NEW AND OUT OF ORDER

Look at the two pictures above and think about what Tosh is saying about a team in place to observe (whatever) and then be debriefed by Barnes and Harvey. Eleven people are seen, males, some in suits and hats, some with radios, up over the road. You can't see up and away to the left, the overpass at the south knoll, a position which was in fact looking JFK straight on at the time of the barrage.

In the photo at right, fourteen people are peering over the underpass/grassy knoll fence, looking back at the railyards, but apparently unable to clamber onto the rail overpass, to get to where all the other guys are already. The eleven people securing the left photo got in place quickly, and there is immense interest in the fence (and the overpass tracks) in the other photo. THere are thirteen people in the Bell photo (below) at the time the limo goes under!

In general the overpass would be a central focus for anyone planning

to ambush the motorcade or observe the action. Its hard to believe no one was up there, the view was just too good, and Tosh points out how it trails safely away to the left (southeast).

Perhaps because the traditional attention paid to 1) THe Witnesses of a grassy knoll shot, AND the Oswald story, AND the point of view of ZAPRUDER, AND the back shots being from the Dal-tex/county records vicinity (ballistically) we have discounted this third, fully triangulating position that our associate Tosh Plumlee is telling us about...a gunman across the road and up the hill looking down and across at the limo....triangulation, you understand...Plumlee says he flew Johnny Roselli into Dallas, so its safe to say he is a candidate for the third position, (with Files and Nicolletti, possibly?)

Also RR tracks are notoriously good escape routes.

Shanet

This first image below taken moments after the shooting shows the collection of people gathered above where the limo passed under only seconds before.

The second image shows a collection of spectators (and one police officer) who ran up the knoll and gathered at the fence. It does make one wonder.

FWIW

James

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Question for the Forum. I just want to get a sense of the group on this- The Zapruder film shows Kennedy reacting and reaching up to his throat. Fletcher Prouty goes into detail on his site about a flechette (small arrow/large dart) that paralyzed JFK so he couldn't dodge the bullets. Some think a CIA device, possibly an umbrella, fired the dart. Others say he was hit with a 22. The official story is "no throat shot - just a tracheotomy from an EXIT WOUND," which is obviously bunk.

What do you all think? Which story does the evidence support? Doesn't the clothing (necktie) show a front shot?

Shanet

John

History is what it is, and nobody has a lock on it. No, you probably won't get your dissertation approved or published by a University Press if you get into JFK assassination issues, and the OAH and AHA doesn't host conferences on alternatives to the Warren Commission, but I look at it this way. Jim Marrs, great historian(0n JFK--I withhold judgment on Marrs 9/11 thesis), Mark Lane, Groden, Epstein, the same. History is the CONSTRUCTED PUBLIC MEMORY, so this site and and related works take part in forming "History." A typical academic press "serious history" book sells about 5,000 copies, if that. ((edit--actually its closed to 600!)) Your site links us to 170,000 sites, with millions of hits. If you want to be a historian, go ahead and do it --you don't need a fancy PH.D. Use primary sources, which assassination researchers are famous for, and make your theoretical conclusions match the evidence. A historian understands both primary (first hand, photos, tapes, affadavits) and secondary (other articles and books) sources, when you have read widely in your topic, called the historiography, then you can DO HISTORY, i.e., be a working historian.

Lets not sell ourselves short, history is written by fearless investigators who can make a compelling case about the past---and the fishier the official story, the more likely the best history will come from less established sources.

Its a new age, and the internet, database computing, image scanning, etc. is the way of the future.......just make a compelling, coherent, cohesive conclusion to a body of evidence and you are a historian. We have an impact.

Shanet Clark

In his excellent article, The Silence of the Historians, (included in Murder in Dealey Plaza) David W. Mantik writes: 

Between 1994 and 1998, the Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) processed for release approximately 60,000 JFK assassination documents. Its staff also conducted new depositions and interviews with many medical witnesses, some completely new to the case. This wide panorama of fresh sources amassed a compelling case for a post-assassination cover-up in the medical evidence, an area heretofore almost totally ignored by historians. Inasmuch as the assassination is a major event of the twentieth century, and may well represent a turning point in American history, it is incumbent upon historians to understand and explain this event - as well as those that surround it. To date, however, a deafening silence has reigned on these matters, as historians have preferred to tolerate the harvest of The Warren Report rather than to cultivate their own fields.

Possibly inquisitive historians, naturally enough, have no craving to be tainted as balmy by the media paintbrushes, as well might befall them were they to admit publicly to such curiosity. The plain fact, though, is that this controversial issue frightens historians: most genuinely fear for their own professional prestige, and many fear subconsciously at what would gaze back at them from the subterranean depths of this case were they to peer too intently into the well of history. Given the unique nature of these events, and their profound impact on America, this fear is understandable. Ultimately, however, these issues must be faced honestly and responsibly. It is no longer sufficient merely to quote a lawyer turned journalist on these serious questions, nor can the matter be left to the most amateur of professions - the media.

I think David raises a very important point here. Surveys show that the vast majority of the population (in the United States and the UK) believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK. However, most people have not fully grasped that in order to believe this, you have to recognize that there was a government cover-up and that the United States experienced a Coup d’Etat. One of the reasons for this is the way the subject has been treated by historians and the official media.

To accept that a Coup d’Etat took place is to completely undermine our belief in the democratic process. The assassination of JFK changed the course of history. If JFK had been a two-term president, would America now be having to decide between the merits of George Bush and John Kerry?

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OK. I have been researching this for a while using various resources such as Burkes Peerage in the UK. The ones I cannot find any link to this family line so far are as follows....

15 James Buchanan  1861

16 Abraham Lincoln  1865

17 Andrew Johnson  1869

20 James A. Garfield  1881 - 1881

21 Chester A. Arthur  1885

25 William McKinley  1901

28 Woodrow Wilson  1921

33 Harry S. Truman  1953

34 Dwight David Eisenhower  1961

35 John F. Kennedy  1963

36 Lyndon B. Johnson  1969

39 Jimmy Carter  1981

42 Bill Clinton    2001

So, of these 13, apparently 4 are members of this blood line. My original question to this forum was whether anyone knew if LBJ was linked and if so, could this have been a possible motive for the killing of JFK who was not.

I have also been studying the involvement of groups such as Bilderberg who seem to have more control over what happens in the political world than anyone could imagine. I know that guys like Bill Clinton were heavily linked to this and that JFK revered them.

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If Jimmy Files (or the grassy knoll shooter) had held his fire, then the Z film

would have strongly supported three shots from the rear---and if the

film had shown clearly any shots from the front, I doubt if anyone would have ever seen it.

Shanet

has anybody got any other ideas apart from triumphalism?

john

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John

TOPIC: Was John Kennedy's Assassination "Legal"? :

Understanding the 25th Amendment to the Constitution (1967).

Shanet Clark

I would like to organize an online conference on the JFK assassination during the week 21st November – 27th November. If I can persuade enough people to contribute a paper, I would like to start a couple every day during this week. Please post titles of the topics you would like to start.

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There is a line at the bottom of every post for your biography.

Mine links to my legitimate credentials.

Bernice's is blank, and Byas's is uninformative.

I'm sorry your other forums were enveloped in disinformation.

I don't hate you, and I hope we do share in the same reality ..........

Shanet

Sorry- I saw it in NYC but didn't tape it.

Shanet,\i saw that part of tmwkk on the history channel here in ireland, do you by any chance have a copy of it? i've been searching for a quite a while now

thanks john

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If you skipped it you might want to go back and click on DIXIE REA's link about ZAPRUDER.

There's good stuff there...the first I've heard of G. DeMorenschildt being connected to the Bush dynasty...LEGEND by Edward Jay Epstein is a good book,

he's very tame and conventional in his conclusions, but the facts about Oswald

and DeMorenschildt are open to more sinister conclusions.

Couple of things on the Zapruder Film. First, everybody needs to rent and view

the new digital archive version that shows the sprockets' spaces, various slow-mo's and good resolution.

Questions--who did the rough cut splicing that left the half-trees in the early part?

Two--In Movies POV (point of view) is everything, and the critical headshots are

against a pure green grass background, was it retouched?

Whats up with the nasty scalp flap on JFK's right temple? Its not in the autopsy or the Groden photos.

Is it just me or is Connally reacting like a guy caught in a continuing barrage? Kennedy was definitely reaching up to his throat with both hands.

Life Magazine bought the film, showed some frames out of order and then suppressed it...ultimately I think ZAP was put up to it and the film is what we historians call "Triumphalism," a trophy, like Files' biting the .222 shell....

Shanet

Thanks---this is interesting. I think the lesson here is not to cling to things that support your angle, it is more important to get all the facts, many of which will be paradoxical or counter-intuitive---in a word more rich and complex-- than what you started with...but, damn, he sure looked like Oswald......

Shanet

Terry-

Thanks, that's me.

"I reject the Warren Commission and I intend to develop a compelling thesis addressing the 'unspeakable' fact of American political violence, and show that John Kennedy was killed by his militant reactionary political opposition."

Shanet Clark

Mr. Clark - Welcome to The Education Forum

It's great to have an expert in American History aboard!

Members: May, 2004... Press of Kansas). David Shanet Clark (Georgia State Univ.) has won the EI Woodruff Fellowship in Southern History. He will present ...

www.historians.org/Perspectives/ Issues/2004/0405/0405memb1.cfm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF] 2004 Regional Conference Atlanta, Georgia 1File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

... University Seceding From Secession, the Partition of Virginia and West Virginia, June 1863: Strategic Geographic Factors David Shanet Clark, Georgia State ...

www.oah.org/meetings/2004regional/ 2004regionalprogram.pdf - Similar pages

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... John Lewis at Ebenezer Baptist Church, Georgia Secretary of State Cathy Cox at the historic gold-domed Georgia State Capitol, and historian David Goldfield on ...

www.oah.org/meetings/2004regional/2004regionalfinal.pdf - Similar pages

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James

Lovelady resembles the guy in the photo, but so does Oswald. Who is Lovelady,

Why the mugshot? Is this a double? What else has been said on this? Is this the consensus over time, Lovelady is the man in the photo?

Shanet

Shanet,

I think you will find that the man in the doorway of the TSBD is Billy Lovelady.

James

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Billy Loveday worked at the Texas School Book Depository. The Warren Commission claimed that the man in the photograph was not Oswald because he was on the 6th Floor at the time. On the day of the assassination Lovejoy claims he was wearing a “red and white vertical stripped shirt”. Whereas the man in the photo appears to be wearing what Oswald had on (light T-shirt with a dark heavy-textured shirt over it). Several witnesses claim that Loveday was sitting down at the time of the shooting.

Loveday told the Warren Commission that “The shots came from right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.”

Interesting footnote. Loveday died of a heart attack in January, 1979, during the HSCA hearings. Was he due to be interviewed by the HSCA?

WIM-

That's the gist of it. The story was told about how upset he was, how totally freaked out he was --he took his family on the road and hid out in motels until Oswald was actually killed, then he relaxed. It was

the story of a lowlife mortician (pictured in the Carousel w/operatives) being

called upon to contribute his "skill"...came to a nasty end, as well, i believe...but as I say its only from memory...the pulled A&E film has names and confirmables.........

Shanet

You wrote:

"I watched the "MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY" television series last november and the story of the mob mortician made sense. Seems a Carousel Club undertaker

was busy digging mercury and lead out of the cadaver, and it really shook him up"

What is this all about? Can you give me a little more on that? I never heard about this.

Wim

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Wim-

great web site-thanks for posting the Jimmy Files/Sutton confession.

I watched the "MEN WHO KILLED KENNEDY" television series last november and the story of the mob mortician made sense. Seems a Carousel Club undertaker

was busy digging mercury and lead out of the cadaver, and it really shook him up...this ties in with the switcheroo at Andrews AFB...(casket out one side, body bag out the other)...none of the autopsy records, pictures or X-rays of JFK make a bit of sense---JFK probably was buried at sea, or cremated. I wonder what's under the Eternal Flame???

Anybody got anything on that Dallas mortician on Air Force 1?

Shanet

According to James Files the body was indeed dumped into the ocean.

He claims he heard this from Theodore Shackley.

If this is true, the story you are referring to is a disinfomation story in order to have plausible denial if the body will ever be exhumed.

Let's find out if James Files is full of xxxx and exhume the body.

Wim

www.jfkmurdersolved.com/filestruth.htm

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I set you up for that one........

Bernice

I call them as I see them and I look at the internet as a non-hierarchical

endeavor..........I'm just saying don't start a new THREAD for an old foodfight.

please............... I am the new guy and so I can see the real problems here.

I also notice that you have provided us absolutely no biographical material.

Conversely, I urge people to view mine own, as per the "ADMINISTRATION"

but lets move on to substantive issues.......

Shanet

You do have a good point Shanet..

........... the Administration

makes the announcements and such pertaining to

threads and whatever..re Forum business..

When they..............The Bosses are quite capable of doing

so when they feel the need ..

Let them call the shots ..whatever the decisions..

They will....

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Tim-

Tell me more about this photo

Who are these guys? Whats the deal with Goss and JFK?

Shanet

Tosh:

The most current and particular issue I would like to ask you about is the Barry and the Boys photo, especially since our new Director of the CIA, Porter Goss, is purported to be seated with other members of Operation 40.

36) Now there's a magic bullet, it tore the top of his head off and came out during heart massage---that little sucker sure gets around!!

John

Great Stuff--rich goldmine of contemporary primary documents.

1) Hoover probably heard "Alice" for "Alex" over the phone to Texas.

i.e. "Alice Hidell" This happens all the time in the south, (when we talk to yankees)

Shanet in Atlanta

ps It's also going to be the case that these talks are "surface" No two people in the world knew more about bugs, taps and insecure telephonic communications than the new President and the old FBI director...these are veiled...

POST OF MCCORD LETTER

and picture of James McCord

(from Magruder's book) shanet

The letter that broke Watergate wide open

James McCord "A Piece of Tape" (imprint; 1974)

James, Tim

Excellent Posts-Factual and germane.

The Bay of Pigs references and the Number of links between Watergate and

Dallas are critical to understanding late 20th century US political history.

However, I still don't see the burglary as a CIA set up to topple Nixon. I think the White House (Colson) had brought in some very dirty political operatives from the sixties (the assassination and the Watergate burglary were less than ten years apart) and when these people got in trouble Nixon used Dallas (euphimism Bayof Pigs) to pressure Helms. Still not much to show that Langley caused the arrests to get rid of Nixon....great factual evidence from both posts...the Watergate burglary team was mere deeply involved in CIA Bay of Pigs than I knew.

Shanet

(((((((((the Cubans involved were very much underplayed. They were passed off as Bay of Pigs veterans still with a cause at heart. The reality is that Eugenio Martinez was a veteran of over 300 dangerous missions into Cuba and was considered a CIA legend. Virgilio Gonzalez was passsed off as a humble locksmith when in fact he had solid history with Felipe Vidal Santiago in Cuba before their defections, was also a veteran of many anti-Castro Cuban missions and had trained in sniper camps. \one of those who got away during Watergate, namely Felipe de Diego who came through Fort Benning in 1963 with Posada Carilles and Felix Rodriguez.

James)))))

Tim

Thanks, you put a better order to the rough scheme I developed over the years.

Thanks for the support. This is the "History" that is not in the textbooks,

the unpeakable reality of political violence, where John Kennedy was

murdered by his militant reactionary political opposition.

Shanet Clark

((((((Excellent post, Shanet!

The only exception I take, and it's minor to the scale of your rendition, is that the Dal-Tex shooter would not have been located on the roof of the Dal-Tex building. Reverse trajectory from the Tague curb hit traces back to the second or third floor of the building. There were three teams with three timed vollies. The first volley was so early that the TSBD assassin was shooting through the tree and missed at the time of the first throat wound, which came from the grassy knoll and the back wound from the Dal-Tex. The second volley hit Connally in the back from the TSBD, and Connally in the wrist from the Grassy Knoll. The Dal-Tex shooter missed, with the bullet carrying on to the the curb near Tague. The third volley was a double hit on JFK's head from the grassy knoll and the TSBD. If the Dal-Tex shooter missed on the third volley, that would still make the logical nine shots from three teams.))))

Tim

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