Jim Root

Robert

Peter Layton Cottingham, in his book, "Once Upon a Wartime" (aliitle known publication about a Canadian who served in Walker's 3rd Regiment of the FSSF) describes comming upon a freshly cooked hot meal in a bunker that overlooked the exact landing site where Walker came ashore on Kiska. He disputes that the island was totally evacuated and leaves one to speculate that an advance group may have already been ashore when the initial landing was made by the 3rd Regiment. The FSSF were used in Kiska the same way that they would again be used in the landings in Southern France, to secure an area in advance of the main landings.

"We had the strangest feeling as we entered that the bunker had been very recently occupied. This was confirmed as we felt the stove. It was warm and contained a pot of luke warm coffee on top." (page 85)

"The American intelligence had their own agenda and to this day they insist that the enemy had left the island en masse a day or two before our arrival." (page 86)

" We had plenty of time to kill waiting for our next move. That gave us a chance to look over some of the Japanese installations..." (page 88)

Radar was reguarded as a serious new technological weapon during WWII. One only needs to remember such exploits as the commando raid on a German Wurzburg radar site at Bruneval to understand the importance the Allied Command placed on such installations.

This excerpt taken from a story about the Dieppe Raid shows the value placed in gaining information about enemy radar:

"Another positive outcome from the Dieppe raid was a greater understanding of the new German radar technology, codenamed Freya. In 1940, the R.A.F. became aware that the Germans had put Freya into operation but did not know what its effective range was or how to jam its frequencies -. During the Dieppe raid, radar technician Flight Sergeant Jack Nissenthal was assigned to a top-secret mission to learn about Freya. Members of the South Saskatchewan Regiment escorted Nissenthal on the raid. Because his extensive knowledge of radar systems could be a significant asset to the enemy, the Regiment was ordered to kill him rather than allow him to be captured. Nissenthal and his escorts landed near the town of Pourville and made their way to their intended target, the radar station at Caude-Côté. Unable to penetrate the heavily fortified station, Nissenthal did the next best thing and cut its phone lines to the German forces. The German personnel at the radar station were forced to use radio communication during the battle. R.A.F. listeners in England monitored this radio traffic and learned a great deal about Freya's capabilities. The Allied armies thus gained a vital tactical advantage, the ability to jam German radar. Countless allied airmen owe their lives to the Dieppe raid. Nissenthal and at least some of the South Saskatchewan Regiment returned safely to England. Others were not so fortunate and were among the many killed or captured at Dieppe. (from "Military History: Second World War: Early Losses")

During the battle of Guadalcanal, US Marines captured a crude Japanese Radar system that was no where near as sophisticated as the US SCR270 system. But the allies soon started searching the airwaves for Japanese radar capabilities:

"SIGINT receivers were quickly installed on submarines and aircraft to hunt for more Japanese radars. A Consolidated B-24 Liberator ferret that had been fitted with various SIGINT gear, including some lab breadboards, performed probes of the Japanese-held island of the Kiska in the Aleutians in March 1942, and discovered the signatures of two more IJN Type 1 Model 1 radars, which the SIGINT operator reported sounded exactly like the signature of the US SCR-270 longwave radar." (Electronic Warfare Against The Axis (1) v2.0.1 / chapter 8 of 12 / 01 feb 05 / greg goebel / public domain).

The US was worried and the capture of this installation became a top priority. Edwin Walker was transferred to the FSSF and then led the assault at Kiska. We return to this area of Signals Intelligence (SIGNT) that I find pops up within the career of Walker on a persistant basis (previous references to John B. Hurt). Present to whitness these landings is Asst. Secretary of War John J. McCloy.

I too "wanted to mention that as a point of reference to those who are not familiar with World War 2 Pacific Theater operations."

Jim Root

John

At the end of the war Walker was commanding a unit that contained both the remnants of the Americans from the First Special Services Force and a group known as the 99th Battalion Seperate. The 99th was composed, almost entirely of Norwegian speeking Americans (William Colby having been an original member of the 99th). The FSSF was originally organized to be inserted into Norway to engage in a covert war designed to pin down German units in that Northern Country.

As it ended up, part of the deception campaign for the D-Day landings (Fortitude) was a continuing operation to make the Germans believe that a landing in Norway was at all times a potential (Fortitude North). Given the heavy water production in Norway (necessary for the German A-Bomb effort) we find that the Germans actually kept nearly 20 Divisions stationed in Norway right up until the end of the War. Even 10 of those Division stationed on the Western Front around D-Day may have had a significant impact on the Allied operations in France.

Of note is the fact that Walker was not assigned to the FSSF until just before it departed for the Aleutian Campaign (which made it one of the very few units to have served in both the Pacific and the European Campaigns). I have read first hand accounts from members of the unit that claimed that Walker came to the Force at about the same time that some German spies were descovered amoungest its members and arrested. I have always believed that the FSSF may have been formed as part of the deception campaign (Fortitude) but once formed it was only later designated for use in the most difficult special assignments.

For example when the Force went to Kiska it was the Third Regiment that landed first (Walker Commanding). Upon the island, in what was called the first "Ferret Mission," a sophisticated Japanese Radar Unit was detected by a specially equiped airplane loaded with advanced electronics. I have speculated that the capture of this radar unit was a primary goal of the soldiers of the FSSF. I have seen a picture of the men of the Force hanging what appears to be their laundry upon the antenae of this radar unit. The fact that Attu was attacked before Kiska, although Attu was further West than Kiska, seems to support the idea that Kiska was to be isolated and successfully blockaded before it was attacked.

Special assignments are a trademark of Walker's military career.

John J. McCloy was present for the Kiska assault.

Coincidence?

Jim Root

Greg

Walker was involved in the processing of large numbers of people on at least three occations during his career.

The first time was during the great depression and the CCC days. The second was at the end of WWII in Norway when he was involved with the return of Soviet POW's to Russia and some 300,000 Germans who had to be returned to Germany. The third time was during the Korean War.

In the CCC days the US Army was called upon to process large numbers of Americans to do public works project who were comming from financially devestated homes. Some of these young Americans could have become potential dissidents as we saw demonstrated during the "bonus marches" in Washington DC. By this time Walker, I believe, was already involved in military intelligence operations which puts an interesting spin on what the military was doing in America at that time. I believe it was during the early 1970's that the military was ordered to actually destroy the intelligence files that it had collected on Americans from previous years.

By WWII military intelligence had become quite profficient at processing POW for possible intelligence assets. The Col. Aaron Bank story of raising and training a complete unit of former German POW's to assassinate Hitler is just one striking example of what the military was capable of near the end of WWII. Bank's story, "From OSS to Green Berets" describes how the Army was recruiting foreign soldiers to become parts of multinational units of specially trained men brought together in small teams to be inserted or left behind enemy lines in case of a war with the Communist Block. A multi-national unit was exactly what the First Special Services Force was and which Walker commanded at the end of the War.

I do not find it hard to believe that Walker was involved with scouring the Soviet POW's and the German military personel in Norway for potential US agents that would be returned to their home countries or "lost," never to return home except as intelligence assets. I understand that Stalin was so worried about just such a possibility that he had large numbers of the former Soviet POW's executed upon their return. Knowlege of this potential fate would be ample encouragement to intice potential recruits into the type of units that Banks described and Walker would have been the man who may have identified and recruited them.

It is not a stretch of the imagination for Walker to be positioned to do exactly the same thing with the Korean and Chineese POW's before their return to their home countries and for him to be concerned with his opposite numbers from the other side of the Iron Curtain doing the same with American POW's.

Once again I reiterate that Walker's complete career is what intrigues me so much, not to mention that he was traveling in Europe at the same time as Oswald and that he can be associated with Oswald and the assassination in general.

Walker's actions in the morning following the assassination still remains a riddle for my mental gymnastics. I cannot yet understand how a German publication knew where Walker was staying in Shreveport and how to get ahold of Walker at his hotel. It is further difficult to understand how that same publication was able to piece together a story, after interviewing Walker, that ends up mirroring the Warren Commissions findings about the attempted assassination of General Walker and then publish that story before the FBI even has a lead on connecting Oswald to the Walker assassination.

Jim Root

Greg

Your timeline is excellent but begins too late to see the larger picture that my research brings into focus.

According to Time magazine Walker's assignment to Little Rock began with a phone call from Army Chief of Staff, General Maxwell Taylor. As Chief of Staff of the Army, Taylor, had four crisis (Arlington National Cemetery website). The first was the First Straits of Taiwan Crisis the fourth Little Rock. In these two cases Taylor turned to Walker, his former student at West Point (1927 - 1931), as the man he trusted to accomplish the mission.

I believe that Taylor knew that he could always count on "Ted" Walker to get whatever task he was assigned done!

We find that Walker was involved with the earliest development of Special Forces and was involved in the training of airbore troops, special forces, Rangers and in the operations of covert forces (Greece). All of which were Taylor favorites. When Taylor, with John F. Kennedy's approval officially recognized the Green Berets as a unit, the ceremony commenced with the passing of the colors of the First Special Services Force (a unit that Walker had commanded during WWII) to the newly formed Green Berets.

Walker was involved in the POW exchange in Korea for which Taylor received the credit. Walker was a key figure in the training of Korean Forces after Taylor took command in Korea. This occured at a time when the US Congress was becomming concerned with the cost of the Korean War in terms of the loss of American lives. Walker had previously been involved in the fierce display of American artillery capabilities at a time when the Army, and Taylor, were being critized at home for having logistical problems and being unable to provide the necessary firepower to protect American lives.

Before Korea and even before WWII we find that the military career of Walker is of interest in a way that conflicts with the generally known facts about his life.

We find that the Walker story makes a break from his less than traditional military career. This break coincides with Oswald's "defection" to the Soviet Union. While the standard conspiracy line finds the government creating "cover stories' and "deep backround" that can produce plausible deniability we seem to want to accept the Walker story only from the "right wing" perspective. I continue to push for a deeper look into this man and his connections.

I do not consider the fact that Walker was in a place where William Friedman's team of cryptologists (which included John B. Hurt, circa 1935) is a coincidence. That Maxwell Taylor was involved with this group is also of interest but the most intriguing fact is that (at least during WWII) John J. McCloy was in charge of this most highly guarded group of individuals. The ommission of Lee Harvey Oswald's attempt to contact a John Hurt from the WC Report and the NSA's assignement of two close associates of John B. Hurt to investigate Lee Harvey Oswald's phone book continues to add to this collection of circumstantial evidence.

Walker's career points toward a man who was deeply involved in counter intel work. His name is so closely linked to the assassination story that we must consider the possibility that the career of the one is also tied to the actions of the other.

And the beat goes on.

Jim Root

All

I will be redundant in my post here.

You will never see the true Walker until you search beyond 1957, Little Rock and how General Walker got to where he arrived.

The old saying, "you can't see the forest for the trees." has never been truer when it comes to Walker. His Warren Commission Testimony is just one example of his ability to twist, turn and rearrange words to bypass providing any real information.

What is perhaps more important about Walker's Testimony is that not one Warren Commissioner was in attendance during the interview. Strange when you read the summary of the WC Report and see how much emphisis they placed on the Walker assassination attempt in painting a picture of the "Lone Nut," Oswald.

Perhaps the Commissioners choose to miss this important testimony because McCloy had corresponded with Walker just five months prior to the assassination. Perhaps they excused themselves because Walker had been envolved in two specific WWII missions that McCloy, as Asst. Sec. of War, took a specific interest in. Perhaps it was uncomfortable to be in the same room with Walker because Walker could be associated with John B. Hurt who could also be associated with John J. McCloy and perhaps even Lee Harvey Oswald.

Major General Edwin Anderson Walker is an enigma within the assassination story perhaps even greater than Oswald himself yet never studied to any great degree beyond his involvement in "right wing" organizations.

As a group, conspiracy theorist seem to ignore, excuse or downplay any connections to Walker. Dispite this fact almost anyone with a knowledge of how the military works would have to admit that you could not attain the position of Major General without being connected to many persons which are in the very highest echelons of both the military and the government. Dispite this we find that during the muzzling of the military hearings Walker did not once defend his position by attempting to blame those higher up on the military food chain. He did, of course, make accusations toward the President and those who held civilian control over the government. But the leader of that civilian control, John F. Kennedy would soon be dead.

Please get beyond Walker's "right wing" activites and look more closely at his military career, his intelligence connections and his whole life work if you are truely interested in understanding Walker the man.

Jim Root

William

Thanks. I would apprecieate any information that you could provide that surrounds this area of Walker's life.

Are you, by any chance, related to Dermont "Pat" O'Neil(l)?

Jim Root

This quote by John B. Hurt was published under the title "A Version of the Japanese Problem in the Signal Intelligence Service (Later Signal Security Agency) 1930 - 1945" Published by the Army Security Agency in what appears to be Sept. of 1947. It was declassified on September 27, 1983.

"...Kennedy, the American Ambassador to London...was always incapable of folowing a consistent course, making one contradictory statement after another. At times he praised England most highly, and at other times, he declared that democracy was dead there. There was one thing, however, in which he was quite consistant. He was an American aristocrat with little feeling for common men anywhere." (Page 140)

Is this an interesting statement from a man whose name, if, not the person himself, would, 16 years later, be associated with the assassin of Joe Kennedy's son?

Jim Root

William

From the information that you gathered at the Univ. of Oregon, would it be possible to piece together a timeline for Walker's Pro Blue Program?

I find this subject of great interest.

Jim Root

George

Thanks for the lead.

This seems to confirm what I had read over the weekend.

The article mentions McCloy by name which once again puts him into the center of the nuclear test ban picture. We also find that after a prolonged period of non testing of nuclear weapons the Cold War atmosphere for increased nuclear development was leading to the development of bombs which could annihilate any Euoropean country with a single weapon.

I continue to believe that this subject (comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty) was of such grave concern for McCloy, coupled with Kennedy's willingness to back away from a comprehensive test ban treaty, that may have led McCloy to conspire to assassinate John F. Kennedy and put himself (McCloy) back into a position to lead the international negotiations toward the 1968 Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.

The pieces continue to come together, including perhaps Soviet cooperation.

Did the Soviets really believe Kennedy would go beyond the "brink" during the Cuban Crisis?

Jim Root

Can anyone confirm this event or point me toward additional literature?

Jim Root

Hi Jim

found this information quite useful concerning the "Tsar Bomba"

George

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Russia/TsarBomba.html

I just read a Cuban Missile Crisis account that puts John J. McCloy in a discussion with Nikita Kruschev during the crisis where Kruschev reveals to McCloy that the Soviets are about to test a 100 Megaton Hydrogen Bomb.

This is not out of the question at this time since the Soviets had in fact tested the "Tsar Bomb" in 1961. It was the biggest nuclear device ever built by anyone, and was a fusion bomb with a yield of 50 megatons. It was detonated on October 30, 1961, and was capable of approximately 100 megatons, but was purposely reduced shortly before the launch. Although weaponized, it was not a realistic weapon of war, but was part of sabre-rattling between the Soviet Union and United States during the Cold War. The explosion was hot enough to induce third degree burns at 100 km.

The threat would seem apparent.

Can anyone confirm this event or point me toward additional literature?

Jim Root

Greg

I have been able to track down the author of the April 12, 1961 Overseas Weekly article and he has graciously replied to my questions.

His memory has a PR Colonel being the driving force behind the Pro Blue Program (I believe it was Colonel Arch Roberts although the author does not give that name).

The author says that the "col" and Walker sponsored a talk by a person (he believed was) named Willie Schramm who advocated a first strike against Soviet forces in Czechoslovakia. John Dornberg ( the editor of Overseas Weekly) first assigned a "sexy reporter" named Phyllis Senter to "prowl the division headquarters" for several months gathering information for the story.

The author goes on to state that the "the Svengali for Pro Blue" was that colonel in public affairs. He got all the birch literature displayed in the division library and cafeterias and arranged the speakers."

The author of the OW article concluded with these words that I found interesting:

"I think we're lucky that nutcase never launched his tank units across the border!!"

Two points that can be ascertained from the authors information:

1) The research phase of the article would have began before Oswald applied to return to the US. Sometime before January 1961 Pro Blue was already in place and operating within the 24th Division.

2) Edwin Walker, while a willing participant in the program, was not the driving force behind the program.

Jim Root

Steve

The April 12, 1961 date conincides with the date that I have. I have heard that a copy of the article exists in the files of the Socialist Party headquarters that was located in New York but have been unable to get a physical copy. This thread has prompted me to renew my efforts. Will see if they prove successful.

From the Warren Commission report:

"After receiving the first letter postmarked February 5, (1961) the Embassy on February 28 forwarded a despatch to the Department informing it of Oswald's letter and its reply to Oswald. At that time, the Embassy also inquired of the Department whether Oswald would be subject to prosecution on any grounds if he should return to the United States and, if so, whether Oswald should be so informed. The Department was also asked whether there was any objection to returning Oswald's"

Oswald makes reference to a December letter to the US Embassy in Moscow. No record of that letter has ever been found.

We have about nine weeks from the "official" letter that Oswald wrote requesting he be allowed to return to the US and the Overseas Weekly article. This is either coincidence or something to be considered when examining the future accusations made by the Warren Commission dealing with the assassination attempt on the life of Walker.

What is a fact is that the Overseas Weekly article follows, to a rather exact degree, Oswald's earliest attempts to return to the United States and that Oswald would be (at a minimum) accused of attempting to assassinate General Walker after the assassination of JFK.

For myself the inability of the CIA to identify how Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki plays into this story as well because Walker was traveling in Europe at the same time. The information that Antti Hynonen gathered from the archives of FinnAir show that Oswald very well could have taken an alternate route (that matches the potential Walker routes) from London to Helsinki that would have allowed him to arrive in Helsinki on the same plane that other London passengers would have arrived on. The interest here is (as Chris Mills said in 1993) was there a person of signifigance on the plane with Oswald?

The use of NSA"s Meredith Gardner and Frank Rowlett, who were both associates of John B. Hurt (Raleigh Call?), to investigate possible Oswald links to intelligence (to me) points towards an intelligence operation that may have been orchestrated at the highest levels of government designed to insert Oswald into the Soviet Union. If Walker played a roll in this insertion we have an interesting relationship that continues right up to the day after the assassination of John F. Kennedy (Walker interview with Deutsch National und Soldaten-Seitung) that should not be ignored.

Within this scheme, the return of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Soviet Union would have created havoc within the intelligence community but a havoc known only to those at the top on=f the intelligence pile. If so the sacrifice of General Edwin Walker (to the "right wing movement) would have been necessary to protect and to provide plausible deniability to the potentially embarassing revelations that Oswald might be able to divulge. At the same time Oswald's movements, upon his return would need to be monitored at the highest levels of intelligence (which they were, see Jefferson Morley's article, What Jane Roman Said)

http://www.history-matters.com/essays/fram...RomanSaid_1.htm

While this began as speculation on my part, the facts that I have gathered over the years continue to support this thesis. The letter from Mary Helen Bregel would serve to help build the legend of Walker the "Right Wing Nut" even before Oswald arrived back in the United States. That Oswald could later be tied to persons associated with Mary Helen Bregel is another coincidence that can support and easily be accounted for within this scenario.

Jim Root

Greg

Very interesting!

Before I comment further I was wondering if you had a copy of "The Oveaseas Weekly" weekly article that "uncovered" General Walker's indoctrination of his troops?

The article itself has eluded me and (although it has been several years since I last tried to find a copy of the original) my interest is once again peaked by your post. Your letter written by Mary Helen Bregel is of specific interest to some of my beliefs about an Oswald Walker connection.

Jim Root

According to Kai Bird in "The Chairman" Alfred McCormack was a partner, along with John J. McCloy, in the New York law firm Cravath, Henderson and de Gersdorff. McCloy convinced Henry Stimson to bring McCormack into the War Department to organize Friedman's group of cryptologist (including John Hurt). For the remainder of the War McCormack would be in day to day control of the "Magic" program reporting directly to McCloy.

McCormack would be involved in the post war planning to limit the spread of nuclear weapons along with McCloy. The two would be pushed aside by the Truman administration and would soon be moved aside in the negotiations with the Soviets by the appointmet of Bernard Baruch to negotiate atomic matters at the United Nations. Contrary to the position of McCloy the Baruch contengent beleived that the Soviets would not be able to produce an atomic bomb for at least twenty years and that the United States could use its monoply of this weapon to its advantage in international affairs.

McCormack also pushed for a centralized intelligence organization and would soon resign and return to New York law in disgust with the move toward a plan to decentralize intelligence. Both he and McCloy became the targets of a more conservative element within the Truman administration that had their own hard line plans for dealing with the Soviets and how intelligence should be gathered.

This political intrigue would lead to a charge by J. Edgar Hoover that McCloy might be involved in poviding atomic secretes to the Soviets. Both McCormack and McCloy would be forced out of govenment and would return to their law practice.

McCloy would return and would soon be the architech of the new intelligence organization known as the CIA and the NSA.

I wonder if McCloy ever forgot the role played by Hoover in limiting his power during this peiod of international tentions? Conversly the appointment of McCloy to the Warren Commission may have provided a few sleepless nights for the FBI head whose organization had been monitoring the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald and were aware of where the accused assassin was working by November 4, 1963.

I could see where Hoover may have worried about McCloys appointment to the Warren Commission.

Jim Root

Jim Root

Shanet

I too believe that the assassination was a coup orchestrated from within the government by a (small?) group that could be assured that they would have the ability to garner support for what would become the cover-up of their crime. It is my belief that those who orchestrated the crime would have had knowledge that by using Oswald as a key figure they would assure the support of various agencies in the cover-up.

For instance on April 21, 1963 the FBI was alerted to Oswald's pro Cuba activities in Dallas although the Dallas office of the FBI had no independent information to support this information. Because of the information provided to the FBI by an anonomyous informer Oswald's file was reopened and his movements were monitored and reported. Is it logical that the "conspirators" could assure that the FBI's investigation would be subject to their influence once it would be discovered that the FBI had been alerted to and were monitoring the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald? Would the FBI become plyable if it could be shown that they were aware of the accussed assassin yet they failed to prevent the assassin from having access to the "snipers nest?" What was in the destroyed Hosty note and why was it destroyed?

For years I belived that the assassination and the cover-up were two seperate incidents but now believe that both were part and parcel of the same plan. That the plan would be developed based upon a "legal" theory is not beyond belief in my book. I have been reading Kai Birds wonderful biography on John J. McCloy and am having my independent research verified reguarding McCloy's ability to find for the government legal justification for illegal activities.

Two stroies which I find interesting in illustrating this point (both occured during World War II). The first has McCloy handing Sec. of War Stimson a written brief while he is on his way to see President Roosevelt. Stimson begins reading the brief to the President and hits a point where he reads the words, "of course this is unconstitutional but ..." and he stops reading. The meeting erupts in laughter as the guardians of the free world continue to work on how they are going to justify pulling off this illegal activity. In another event Roosevelt is disrupting the construction of the Pentegon with his personal imput on how the plans should be altered. McCloy is miffed by the Presidents interference so when Roosevelt has a favor to ask McCloy (dealing with a former high ranking NAZI who had been a Harvard classmate of Roosevelts and was in custody in Canada) McCloy lets the President know that he will only help with the President's problem if he approves the Pentagon plans as they currently stood. Roosevelt approved the plans and McCloy brought the Presidents friend quietly into the United States. After this event Roosevelt would jokingly refer to McCloy as "that blackmailer."

We could go on to show how McCloy not only orchestrated the Japanese - American internments but then assurred that the Supreme Court cases dealing with this event were "fixed" by not allowing certain information to be presented to the justices. McCloy would also suppress the release of information before the 1944 election that would help to prevent political problems for Roosevelt dealing with the same relocation problem and suppressed a court order to allow Japanese - Americans to move freely about in the United States until after the election as well.

By 1963 John J. McCloy had a great deal of experience in lying to the American public and creating legal theory that was contrary to the Constitution in order to protect what he felt was in the best interests of National Security.

Your theory is not so far fetched and McCloy's placement on the Warren Commission, in my opinion, may well support that theory in some form or another.

Jim Root

Pat and Ryan

I believe that you bring up good questions. Just as we might speculate on how the U-2 was downed the fact remains that it was downed. The same holds true for Kennedy, he was assassinated. Because an accused assassin can act cool and calm after the fact does not prove or disprove anything about the action that occured. Because the rifle used on the firing range by Oswald the Marine is different from the Carcano it does not mean that he could not be as good a shot with another weapon with a scope attached at a shorter distance.

The rifle was stored at the Paines and I do not recall that any cleaning supplies were recovered or put into evidence. Once again that does not prove or disprove that those cleaning supplies did not exist at the Paines residence.

Jim Root

Re:

"McCloy had his fears of the summit meeting slated for May of 1960. The Summit did not occur because a U-2 was shot down. Oswald was a radar operator at U-2 basis. Oswald defects to the Soviet Union. Kennedy is shot and McCloy ends up on the Warren Commission. Interesting connections that I feel are worth continuing to research."

Unless the U2 was sabotaged to prevent the summit from occurring. I am unaware of any proof that a Soviet missle brought down the U2.

Norman

I have seen the arguments about the U-2. I attempt to work within known facts that no one can dispute and build toward what is missing:

1) Oswald operated radar at U-2 basis and was aware of the U-2 aircraft

2) Oswald "defected" to the Soviet Union

3) Us Intelligence (including McCloy) was apprehensive about a Paris Summit in 1960

4) The CIA was either unwilling or unable to identify how Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki

5) General Edwin Walker was traveling in Europe at the same time as Oswald

5) The U-2 went down

6) The Paris Summit was canceled because the U-2 went down

7) Before he returned to the US, Oswald displayed a concern that he might be prosecuted for crimes against the United States.

8) Walker's "Pro Blue Program" start date (that leads to Walker's resignation from the Army) begins within days of a State Department decission that Oswald would be allowed to return to the United States

It is my belief that these simple pieces of information can support a possibility that Oswald's "defection" to the Soviet Union played a roll in the downing of the U-2, however it was downed, and provides for the possibility of a Walker Oswald connection (which would provide Oswald with a motive to shoot at Walker).

Jim Root

John

Most conspiracy theories contain an Oswald element to some degree or another. If nothing more than the patsy that was placed in the TSBD building to be blamed for the assassination. I still have trouble understanding why a conspiracy that needs to explain away Oswald as a patsy is any better than a conspiracy that could involve Oswald as a shooter.

Without Oswald as a shooter we need to add numerous others to the group of assassins (spoters, logistic people, planners for the motorcade route, at the hospital, control of the autopsy, to eliminate witnesses, for each involved person to escape, to murder Tippit, to get Oswald a job at the TSBD, to have Oswald shot at Walker, Marina to provide a note about the Walker shooting, etc., etc.) as well as then also having the ability to control the FBI investigation and the Warren Commissioners. Each layer adds additional personel that might, at some time, have talked. Each layer in turn needs additonal conspirators to explain away why Oswald could not have been a shooter within the conspiracy.

I for one do not believe in the Lone Nut scenario but I certainly do believe that the conspirators used Oswald. I guess I just believe that they used him to a greater degree than others seem to want to believe that Oswald was used. In this scenario Oswald would still need to be eliminated within hours of the assassination (much the same way that Admiral Darlan's assassin was eliminated-I bring this up because I believe that some of the same people may have been involved in both crimes-John B. Hurt makes a comment on the assassination of Admiral Darlan in his papers as well).

Rather than believing that the consiracy involved an ever larger number of people, I believe that the assassination conspiracy has been so successful because it was tighly held with fewer rather than more people involved.

In my scenario the biggest piece of misinformation that has been provided to the public to keep them from discovering the truth about a conspiracy is that Oswald could not have been a shooter. While the the Warren Commission provides for an impossible "lone nut" conclusion, we must all accept that Oswald is an integral part of the assassination story. US intelligence agencies, I believe we could all agree, have in the past put out misinformation on a variety of subjects. Why could the intelligence agencies not have planted the belief that Oswald was not a shooter? Does US intelligence have the ability to plant that thought (Oswald could not be a shooter) into the minds of a majority of Americans by introducing it into movies, into books, on talk shows, in dramatic recreations, at seminars, etc. (especially if it keeps investigators from focusing on Oswald as an intelligence asset that was used more than once)?

We all seem to have been able to accept anything else except this alternative possibility for the past 40 years. Could we have been misled?

Jim Root

Jim, I generally agree with your principle that smaller is better, but offer a few reasons why I'm highly suspicious of the LHO as shooter scenario.

First, as you accept the notion of a conspiracy to kill, how could its architect reasonably settle on LHO as a principal marksman? This is serious business, in which LHO had demonstrated no discernible proficiency, and such a choice would give new meaning to the notion of "starting at the top." IMO, you get one shot at this (forgive me), and it would be foolish to count on this guy as a marksmark.

Second, the timeline between the shooting and witnesses, including a police officer, finding a calm, composed LHO in the lunch room is, IMO, sufficient reason to reject this fellow as a shooter. Indeed, that anomaly and the fact that no staircase witnesses recall seeing LHO make his way from the 6th floor down the staircase torpedo the WC's principal finding.

Third, merely at a gut level, LHO's "I'm a patsy" declaration has to me always had a ring of authenticity.

Bruce

First Oswald shooting ability while a Marine: Just three weeks after joining the Marines, Oswald trained in the use of an M-l rifle. He shot a score of 212, which means he qualified for the second-highest position in the Marine Corps, that of a sharpshooter.

Near the end of his stay in the Marines in 1959, after being court-martialed twice and his morale was low, he went back to re-qualify himself on the range. Oswald still shot a 191, and still qualified as a marksman. That meant that he could hit a 10-inch target eight times out of ten from 200 yards away.

These scores were accomplished at a greater distance than the shots fired at Kennedy and without the assisstance of a telescopic site.

Once again to disprove Oswald as a potential shooter people have had to go to great lengths to argue that he was not a good shot when the facts show otherwise. The other side of this issue is perhaps more interesting. If Oswald was such a good shot why did he (as the Warren Commission states) only hit on two out of three shots fired? Perhaps he was in a hurry?

"First, as you accept the notion of a conspiracy to kill, how could its architect reasonably settle on LHO as a principal marksman?"

Because Oswald was available at the location and time when the conspirators could direct the motorcade past where he was working.

Once again the FBI was knowledgable of Oswald's work location by Nov. 4th (Hosty note, something that was never given an exhibit number by the Warren Commission, why?). The route was designed in Washington against the wishes of the authorites in Dallas (why?). Oswald movements began being monitored within days (April 21 vs April 10) of the assassination attempt on Walker (why?). I postulate that the same people that incerted Oswald into Russia (with Walker's involvement) would have been the only people who could identify Oswald as the perpatrator of the Walker incident. They knew they had a man with a rifle capable of taking human life. All they had to do was put the President within his sites. If he shoots and is successful they have pulled off a crime in which no one else is involved and they have had no direct contact with the shooter. The perfect assassination plot carried out by a group of consirators that are so distant that they will not be discovered, unless Oswald is examined as a shooter in both the Walker and Kennedy cases and if he is linked to Walker and intelligence.

My research draws a direct link between Walker, Maxwell Taylor and John J. McCloy. My research can show how Oswald was incerted into the Soviet Union with the help of Walker (Warren Commission failed to identify how Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki. Why?). My research shows that Oswald's attempted "Raleigh Call" to John Hurt may have been his death warrent because a real John B. Hurt was involved in classified signals intelligence work that is, to this day, still classified. Yet John B. Hurt was known to Walker, Taylor and McCloy as well as to the two NSA employees (Rowlett and Garner) who investigated Oswald's possible intelligence connections for the Warren Commission. Why were those two choosen to investigate Oswald's intelligence connections?

"Third, merely at a gut level, LHO's "I'm a patsy" declaration has to me always had a ring of authenticity."

I could not agree with you more on the "I am a patsy" statement except once again most conspiracy theories take it out of context. The true statement is closer to, "the reason I am being arrested is because I went to the Soviet Union. I am a patsy." This actually fits in quite well with what I stated above.

Speaking of statements made by the accused assassin, Oswald's Spring Hill College speech is interesting. Given after the date of the assassination attempt on Walker, Oswald speaks of his anger with both the US and the Soviets for the failure of the Paris Summit that occured after the shoot down of the U-2. If Oswald was the "patsy" that provided the information to the Soviets necessary to allow them to down the U-2 we can see why Oswald's "anger" may have motivated him to kill. Only his "handlers" could have suspected this after the Walker assassination attempt.

In early November 1959, within days of Oswald's "defection" to the Soviet Union, a meeting of "The Secretary's Disarmament Advisors" met. There was a great deal of fear about the disarmament negotiations that were then taking place and the Summit meeting that was to be held early the next year. McCloy attended this meeting. The Summit did not take place because the U-2 was shot down. Coincidence?

McCloy had his fears of the summit meeting slated for May of 1960. The Summit did not occur because a U-2 was shot down. Oswald was a radar operator at U-2 basis. Oswald defects to the Soviet Union. Kennedy is shot and McCloy ends up on the Warren Commission. Interesting connections that I feel are worth continuing to research.

Jim Root

John

Most conspiracy theories contain an Oswald element to some degree or another. If nothing more than the patsy that was placed in the TSBD building to be blamed for the assassination. I still have trouble understanding why a conspiracy that needs to explain away Oswald as a patsy is any better than a conspiracy that could involve Oswald as a shooter.

Without Oswald as a shooter we need to add numerous others to the group of assassins (spoters, logistic people, planners for the motorcade route, at the hospital, control of the autopsy, to eliminate witnesses, for each involved person to escape, to murder Tippit, to get Oswald a job at the TSBD, to have Oswald shot at Walker, Marina to provide a note about the Walker shooting, etc., etc.) as well as then also having the ability to control the FBI investigation and the Warren Commissioners. Each layer adds additional personel that might, at some time, have talked. Each layer in turn needs additonal conspirators to explain away why Oswald could not have been a shooter within the conspiracy.

I for one do not believe in the Lone Nut scenario but I certainly do believe that the conspirators used Oswald. I guess I just believe that they used him to a greater degree than others seem to want to believe that Oswald was used. In this scenario Oswald would still need to be eliminated within hours of the assassination (much the same way that Admiral Darlan's assassin was eliminated-I bring this up because I believe that some of the same people may have been involved in both crimes-John B. Hurt makes a comment on the assassination of Admiral Darlan in his papers as well).

Rather than believing that the consiracy involved an ever larger number of people, I believe that the assassination conspiracy has been so successful because it was tighly held with fewer rather than more people involved.

In my scenario the biggest piece of misinformation that has been provided to the public to keep them from discovering the truth about a conspiracy is that Oswald could not have been a shooter. While the the Warren Commission provides for an impossible "lone nut" conclusion, we must all accept that Oswald is an integral part of the assassination story. US intelligence agencies, I believe we could all agree, have in the past put out misinformation on a variety of subjects. Why could the intelligence agencies not have planted the belief that Oswald was not a shooter? Does US intelligence have the ability to plant that thought (Oswald could not be a shooter) into the minds of a majority of Americans by introducing it into movies, into books, on talk shows, in dramatic recreations, at seminars, etc. (especially if it keeps investigators from focusing on Oswald as an intelligence asset that was used more than once)?

We all seem to have been able to accept anything else except this alternative possibility for the past 40 years. Could we have been misled?

Jim Root

This is what bugs me, the thigh wound to John Connelly. The depth of this wound is about the same length as the "magic bullet" that was retrieved at the hospital as was the shape of the wound a match to that bullet. The wound showed that it had entered from above and behind which makes sense because entering from the front or the sides of the vehicle would have been impossible (the windshield and door frame would have prevented this bullet from entering from any other direction). Above and behind would place the bullet in a path to explain, at least, the entry and exit wound to Connelly's back and nipple area (and provide for an explanation of the wrist wounds).

Jim Root

Jim, you've let yourself get caught up in some of the LN nonsense. The bullet that entered Connally's thigh basically bounced off. No bullet lodged there. I believe its Dr. Gregory who described this wound as tangential. There was no surgery required. They just stitched up the opening. In short, there's no reason to believe that the magic bullet had anything to do with that wound. The NAA analysis of the magic bullet, moreover, showed that it was almost certainly not the bullet to go through Connally's wrist. If anything, this bullet would be the bullet to create Kennedy's back wound.

Pat

You are dealing with my point. It is the "tangential" wound that allows for the "magic bullet" to be found. Without it there is not a logical explanation of where the bullet came from that the Warren Commission could use to explain Connolly's thigh wound while at the same time tying the bullet to an Oswald owned rifle. Once again I am not dealing with how many shots were fired or from where, I am only dealing with the fact that something caused that thigh wound and nothing was recovered, except for the "magic bullet" on the stretcher which then is used to account for the "tangential" thigh wound and tie a rifle to Oswald.

This circle brings me back to my problem, "How did the conspirators know that that thigh wound would exist before the assassination occured?" How were the conspirators prepared to "plant" the "magic bullet" which would then provide for an explanation of where the thigh wound, which hadn't yet occured, would have come from? We cannot have it both ways. If a bullet was planted on the strectcher where did the Connolly bullet go, which we can assume was intact, that created the "tangential" thigh wound? If the stretcher bullet is the Connolly thigh wound bullet, it was fired by the Carcano rifle recovered from the 6th floor which is, at a minimum, the rifle attributed to Oswald's ownership.

Without an intact bullet being found that could explain the Connolly thigh wound, we would all be screaming that the conspirators had gotten rid of that bullet. We would be postulating that an intact bullet could have conclusivly proved or disproved, by balistics, if "Oswald's" rifle had fired the shots on Nov. 22nd.

Instead we have an intact bullet which can be used to explain the "tangential" thigh wound and the ballistics but as believers in conspirators we seem forced to find a way to explain that bullet away without question why we must do that.

A remarkable piece of planning on the part of the consirators, wouldn't you agree? Perhaps a key piece in the coverup is taking a key piece of evidence and making everyone believe that it cannot be a key piece of evidence. Something any good lawyer would do. Something John J. McCloy had a great deal of experience in when dealing with the German governments coverup of the Black Tom affair. Interesting that the same person would be on the Warren Commission to provide us with the same type of evidence that could be so easily questioned.

Is this all necessary to prove a conspiracy? Or is it a distraction that is keeping us from the truth (I believe that McCloy would enjoy this)? If Oswald were a shooter we need not explain away that bullet. Perhaps by focusing on that possibility we could find the actual conspirators that would have been in a position to use Oswald as a shooter and we may then become much closer to discovering the truth. 40+ years of trying to explain away that bullet has not gotten us any closer. Perhaps we should reexamine our approach.

Jim Root

I too am bugged by the magic bullet but find myself intrigued by both sides of the argument.

On the one hand you have a bullet that is in remarkably good condition dispite the damage that the Warren Commission claims that it did. Put this together with the fact that the excellent condition of this "magic bullet" allows for a balistic match with "Oswald's" weapon and you have the basis for a "lone nut" conclusion that was accepted by the Warren Commission. This bullet is said to have created four entry and three exit wounds in two victims, rather remarkable (and I think everyone agrees with that statement of remarkable).

On the other hand, accepting that multiple shooters or multiple shots created the same entry and exit wounds ascribed to the "magic bullet" would prove a conspiracy, there are some questions that still have not been answered in a satisfactory way for myself.

If we accept that the magic bullet "was really only left on that gurney simply to link the shooting to Oswalds Rifle" the conspirators would need to have had knowledge of and planned for a logical explanation of where the "magic bullet" was to have come from.

This is what bugs me, the thigh wound to John Connelly. The depth of this wound is about the same length as the "magic bullet" that was retrieved at the hospital as was the shape of the wound a match to that bullet. The wound showed that it had entered from above and behind which makes sense because entering from the front or the sides of the vehicle would have been impossible (the windshield and door frame would have prevented this bullet from entering from any other direction). Above and behind would place the bullet in a path to explain, at least, the entry and exit wound to Connelly's back and nipple area (and provide for an explanation of the wrist wounds).

Either the conspirators new in advance that this wound would exist (which would explain where the "magic bullet" came from) or we must accept the potential that a bullet that is consistant with the thigh wound (where no bullet was extracted from) could have fallen from Connelly's body and ended up on the gurney.

We must also be willing to place persons involved in the conspiracy at the hospital to place the "magic bullet" on the gurney as well as attendents and doctors in the emergency room with Connelly that would remove a bullet that would be extracted from the thigh wound and then make that bullet disappear (requiring multiple conspirators to be assigned and placed to accomplish this duel task).

I do not argue for or against multiple shooters here (I leave open that possibility), all I wish to add to this discussion is to open a dialogue on how the conspirators would have fore knowledge of the thigh wound, where (and how) the bullet that made the thigh wound disapeared to (as well as when) after the wound was made and where that bullet would have had to travel from before it entered Connelly's thigh.

Jim Root

John

I appreciate your comments.

Please read my post on Sylvanus Thayer. All three men, McCloy, Taylor and Walker speak of or write of this man (Thayer) within a two week period (May 25, 1963 - June 12, 1963).

In the life of Thayer the date November 22 is a key date. Were these three men identifying the date of Kennedy's travel to Dallas? Not only do you have the unusual fact of communication between McCloy and Walker you have the unusual coincidence of the date November 22.

Means, motive and mechanics???

Jim Root

Sid

I enjoyed your post and have added the information to my collection of research. I was not aware of that particular speech but have, over the past year or so come to believe that the issue of nuclear disarmament may well be the key to the assassination of JFK.

I invite you to read my posts that deal with the issue.

I believe that John J. McCloy, at one time Kennedy's key advisor on nuclear talks with the Soviets, is a primary suspect in this case because of his disagreements with Kennedy over that issue (I also suggest that the failure of the Paris Summit in May of 1960 was a planned opperation by the same man using Lee Harvey Oswald to provide the Soviets with information to accomplish the downing of Francis Gary Powers in his U-2).

I also suggest that Maxwell Taylor may well have had a similar beef with Kennedy over the disarmament issue. These two men (McCloy and Taylor) who were long term associates and tennis partners, along with their connections to General Edwin Walker and a NSA employee named John Hurt, had the means and the motive to assassinate the President. They also had the ability to orchestrate a cover-up of the opperation.

If you have any questions on my posts feel free to ask.

Jim Root

Ron

Taylor's son makes mention of the meeting with McNamara and Chiefs of Staff in his office before the resumption of his meeting with the Germans.

My point is that at the time of the assassination Taylor was alone and in his private office and was informed of the event by phone. By coincidence or plan Taylor was not in an enviornment where history could clearly reflect his reaction to the event. Even within the discription given by his son there is no emotion revealde as being apparent on the part of Taylor.

Taylor's son does relate two accounts of Taylor reflecting upon the assassination that do show emotion concerning the event. "with Elspeth Rostow who interviewed Taylor for the Kennedy Library's oral history series. All went smoothly until the subject of the assassination arose. According to Rostow, Taylor then broke down; for several minutes there was nothing on her tape except the sound of an occasional passing car. Once he had composed himself, the interview continued."

The other occurs in a family setting: "Taylor had recently returned from a speaking engagement at a small New Jersey college, where hecklers had prevented him form speaking. he commented that Kennedy, had he lived, was the one person who might have preserved a degree of national cohesiveness. Then his voice broke; it was a moment before his nomal self-control returned."

Were these the expressions of an emotional man? In no other biography of Taylor do I find a similiar reaction to any other event in war or in peace. I hold open the possibility that he may have had more reason for his emotion than what his son felt was the cause of his brake downs.

Jim Root

Ron

"I certainly think Taylor was involved (for which tellingly he later exhibited profound remorse on more than one occasion). I doubt that he was in the Pentagon at all on 11/22."

From John M. Taylor's (son of Maxwell Taylor) bookGeneral Maxwell Taylor, the Sword and the Pen:

"At the Pentagon his (Taylor's) staff was on notice that when hsi door was closed he was not to be disturbed for anything except the most dire emergencies. On November 22, 1963, he had just stretched out on his sofa following meetings with a German NATO delgation when his buzzer went off. It was the Pentagon's communications room, the National Military Command Center. General Tibbetts apologized, but said that they had just received word from Dallas that President Kennedy had been shot and was probably dying....Tayor then rejoined the German, telling them of the assassination attempt but withholding word, passed to him during the afternoon, that the President was dead."

Jim Root