Jim Root

Tim

You stated:

"In my opinion, and with respect to Jim's argument, it is tawdry to blacken the reputation of someone merely because he or she had a policy dispute with JFK. Policy disputes regardless of the intensity thereof do not turn civilized, law-abiding men into murderers. You need more that MMO to drag someone into the JFK assassination."

During WWII my father, a very civilized, law-abiding man, turned into a murderer. He killed repeatedly based upon a policy dispute that had led to war with the Japanese. After the war my father engaged in business with dozens of Japanese and never had an unkind word to say about the people as a race and held nothing against them for having killed many of his best buddies. Yet my father killed. It was war!

During the 1950's and 1960's the United States was engaged in a Cold War. The steaks were no less than those of WWII but with one additional fear, the total destruction of mankind via nuclear war. McCloy, as Asst. Sec. of War during WWII was in charge of the development of this weapon. He was the sole voice of reason against its use at Hiroshima. McCloy would continue to fear the spread of the nuclear weapons and continued for the rest of his life to advocate for the a verifiable end to the arms race that he feared would lead to nuclear war.

Kai Bird makes it very clear in his book about McCloy that McCloy was not only discusted with Kennedy about his change of position in arms negotiations (June of 1963) but also that McCloy saw no Republican candidate on the horizon that would be better. The elimination of Kennedy provided McCloy with a President that he could work with as he moved the world toward arms reduction and eased the nuclear tensions that were so prevasive during the 50's and 60's (no more drop drills in schools today).

During WWII McCloy was also over the OSS as well. Assassinations of a political nature would not be a new thing for a man in that position. During the invasion of Italy the State Department found that it was unable to administer the civilian government and needs in the areas being liberated. McCloy was called upon again to run a country (Italy) as it was liberated. He would do this again in Germany after the war as High Commissioner of Germany. And McCloy was the one man whose advice MacArthur would take on the administration of Japan.

McCloy knew how to get things done and usually got them done HIS way. He did not want the Paris Summit to come off and it did not come off. He was in a dispute with Kennedy over arms negotiations and Kennedy ended up dead. Was Oswald involved in both? If he was it is logical to look very closely at McCloy.

The fact that McCloy was involved in covering up 3 points as a Warren Commissioner:

1) Passenger lists for Oswald's London to Helsinki trip

2) Hosty's third note that stated where Oswald worked before the motorcade route was established

3) Oswald's attempt to contact John Hurt within hours of Oswald's own death

Points that could suggest that the failure of the Paris Summit was a US Intelligence operation involving Oswald and suggest the involvement of certain persons high within the goverment in providing Oswald with the opportunity to kill the president. The third point, Oswald's attempt to contact a person named John Hurt is perhaps the most important one that was "missed" by "the Warren Commission. Oswald attempted to contact a person who, at a minimum, shared a name with a NSA employee whose work is still to this day classified. A man who during WWII worked for and provided information to McCloy. A man who worked closely with the two men assigned by the CIA to investigate Oswald's potential intelligence contacts......But you don's seem to want to even consider McCloy because, "it is tawdry to blacken the reputation of someone merely because he or she had a policy dispute with JFK."

For the rest of his life, my father has wrestled with the fact that he WAS a killer, that he, a civilized man, killed and killed again. He always knew that if necessary he would kill again and he feared that fact. The one thing that kept him from going over the edge was his belief that what he had done was right and that it was a job that had to be done to save world from the likes of Tojo and Hitler.

For me it is not "hogwash" to believe that a man of McCloy's stature and reputation would in fact be willing to see the President of the United States die if he believed that the world could be saved from nuclear destruction. From what I have read of McCloy, he may have been the only man in the United States with the ability to do just that........but Kennedy stood in his way in 1963! "Tawdry" or not it is not beyond my comprehension to believe that a civilized man of McCloy's stature could engage in political assassination (as he did during WWII).

Jim Root

Brought this back to continue the discussion.

With the "new" Ford book being published that suggests that Ford believed that the CIA was less that forthcomming about what they knew about Oswald yet his conviction that Oswald was the lone shooter I thought that a knew opportunity exists for me to continue to propose that the "Big Fish" was McCloy, who had a motive (arms negotiations) and the means (intelligence connections) and perhaps the knowledge of where Oswald worked (3rd Hosty note that he did not assign a Commission Exhibit number too). Since McCloy had wanted the Paris Summit to fail, which it did, is it to far fetched that he would know why and how it was sabatoged (if it were in fact sabatoged)?

I still find it interesting that at JFK's very first press conference the first man he introduces is John J. McCloy. Just how powerful was McCloy?

That McCloy would, in 1963, have a dispute with Kennedy and Kennedy would end up dead is worth examining very closely!

Jim Root

Ford would then be the second Warren Commissioner to suggest that Oswald may have had some connection to the CIA that needed to be covered up, The first, it seems, was John J. McCloy during an intgerview with Edward Jay Epstein on June 7, 1965:

"I still believe it is possible some document will turn up showing Oswald may have been an agent. Not necessarily a conspiracy but an agent gone haywire."

McCloy leaves Oswald as the lone shooter with no conspiracy, CIA perhaps withholding documents. Seems Ford feels the same way. Seems their stories are very similiar!

3 points covered up by the Commission seem, in my opinion, to support this:

1) No passenger lists for Oswald's travel from London to Helsinki

2) No exhibit number given to the 3rd Hosty note that stated where Oswald was working before the parade route was decided

3) No information about Oswald's attempt to contact "John Hurt" while in custody after the assassination.

If both McCloy and Ford provided us with the same clue the other half of their cryptic message is that Oswald was the shooter. I do believe that a conspiracy did exist with Oswald as a shooter. I know that is not a popular view on this forum but I will suggest again that the greatest disinformation campaign that may have been done was to convice the American public that Oswald was not the shooter.

If my research is correct it may have been General Walker that was on an airplane with Oswald before Oswald arrived in Helsinki. Oswald did somehow have the information needed to show up at the only embassy in the world that could issue a visa into the Soviet Union within 24 hours, Oswald showed up with the necessary Intourist Vouchers that Ambassador Hickerson had told the State Department would be needed only the day before Oswald would arrive in Helsinki. Within two weeks of Oswald's arrivial we find that John Jay McCloy is expressing his concern that the Paris Summit will place the United States Arms negotiators in a bad position. That summit would never occur after Francis Gary Powers is shot down only days before it is scheduled to begin. Was Oswald's travel to Russia a controlled event?

The Belinn note suggests that the CIA could have predicted Oswald's assassination of JFk if they had known that Oswald had shot at Walker. If oswald had been duped into providing information to the Soviets about the U-2 and his travel to the Soviet Union had been orchestrated by a chance meeting with Walker as Oswald traveled in Europe, Oswald, who had returned to Dallas, would have a motive to attempt to murder Walker that only those that would have known that Walker had been given the assignment to help Oswald enter the Soviet Union. It is a fact that the FBI/CIA monitoring of Oswald only begins after the Walker assassiantion attempt.

An attempt on Walker's life is, to me, plausible based upon Oswald's own words. Oswald believed that Walker was the head of a large organization that wished to create friction between the Soviet Union and the US. Did he have first had knowledge of this? If Walker had provided information to Oswald it makes sense. The failure of the Paris Summit was very much on Oswald's mind in the days leading up to the assassination of JFK. His speech at Spring Hill College provides clear evidence of this. Was Oswald bitter of the role he had played in the events that led to the dowing of the U-2 on May 1, 1959? Before returning to the US Oswald did want assurances that he would not be charged with any crimes.

The last building to be passed upon the parade route was the TSBD Building. But we do not know who read the Hosty note that provided information to US Intelligence agencies stating that Oswald worked in that last building. Why is that note still missing to this day. I must admit that I would love to know exactly who had access to that information!

As I have shown the name of John Hurt is of importance to US Intelligence activities of the 1940's, 50's and 60's. John B. Hurt's work for the NSA is still classified to this day and of the 20,000 or so employees of the NSA in 1964 the NSA selected two men, Frank Rowlett and Merideth Gardner that were both closely associated with John Bartrum Hurt to assess Oswald's personal possessions for intelligence material. Coincidence?

I can put together a consistant story that would be supported by both the words of Ford and McCloy, who suggest that the CIA withheld information about Oswald and or, that Oswald had in fact been used (perhaps without his knowledge "Orchid Man") by US Intelligence to assure the failure of the Paris Summit in May of 1959.

The story goes on to support the suggestion that McCloy, who was bitter with Kennedy in June of 1963 over his change of position in arms negotiations with the Soviets, would be one of only perhaps two men who would know that Oswald would have been the man who shot at Walker and that Oswald, if he had the chance would, as the Belin note suggests, shot at the President. Only the men who understood and had access to the whole file on Oswald would know why he could be expected to shoot the President if only Oswald could be given the opportunity.

Jim Root

This was just posted on the web:

"Pilot of plane that dropped A-bomb dies

By JULIE CARR SMYTH, Associated Press Writer

1 hour, 51 minutes ago

Paul Tibbets, who piloted the B-29 bomber Enola Gay that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, died Thursday. He was 92 and insisted almost to his dying day that he had no regrets about the mission and slept just fine at night.

Tibbets died at his Columbus home, said Gerry Newhouse, a longtime friend. He suffered from a variety of health problems and had been in decline for two months.

Tibbets had requested no funeral and no headstone, fearing it would provide his detractors with a place to protest, Newhouse said.

Tibbets' historic mission in the plane named for his mother marked the beginning of the end of World War II and eliminated the need for what military planners feared would have been an extraordinarily bloody invasion of Japan. It was the first use of a nuclear weapon in wartime.

The plane and its crew of 14 dropped the five-ton "Little Boy" bomb on the morning of Aug. 6, 1945. The blast killed 70,000 to 100,000 people and injured countless others.

Three days later, the United States dropped a second nuclear bomb on Nagasaki, Japan, killing an estimated 40,000 people. Tibbets did not fly in that mission. The Japanese surrendered a few days later, ending the war.

"I knew when I got the assignment it was going to be an emotional thing," Tibbets told The Columbus Dispatch for a story published on the 60th anniversary of the bombing. "We had feelings, but we had to put them in the background. We knew it was going to kill people right and left. But my one driving interest was to do the best job I could so that we could end the killing as quickly as possible."

Tibbets, then a 30-year-old colonel, never expressed regret over his role. He said it was his patriotic duty and the right thing to do.

"I'm not proud that I killed 80,000 people, but I'm proud that I was able to start with nothing, plan it and have it work as perfectly as it did," he said in a 1975 interview.

"You've got to take stock and assess the situation at that time. We were at war. ... You use anything at your disposal."

He added: "I sleep clearly every night."

Paul Warfield Tibbets Jr. was born Feb. 23, 1915, in Quincy, Ill., and spent most of his boyhood in Miami.

He was a student at the University of Cincinnati's medical school when he decided to withdraw in 1937 to enlist in the Army Air Corps.

After the war, Tibbets said in 2005, he was dogged by rumors claiming he was in prison or had committed suicide.

"They said I was crazy, said I was a drunkard, in and out of institutions," he said. "At the time, I was running the National Crisis Center at the Pentagon."

Tibbets retired from the Air Force as a brigadier general in 1966. He later moved to Columbus, where he ran an air taxi service until he retired in 1985.

But his role in the bombing brought him fame — and infamy — throughout his life.

In 1976, he was criticized for re-enacting the bombing during an appearance at a Harlingen, Texas, air show. As he flew a B-29 Superfortress over the show, a bomb set off on the runway below created a mushroom cloud.

He said the display "was not intended to insult anybody," but the Japanese were outraged. The U.S. government later issued a formal apology.

Tibbets again defended the bombing in 1995, when an outcry erupted over a planned 50th anniversary exhibit of the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian Institution.

The museum had planned to mount an exhibit that would have examined the context of the bombing, including the discussion within the Truman administration of whether to use the bomb, the rejection of a demonstration bombing and the selection of the target.

Veterans groups objected, saying the proposed display paid too much attention to Japan's suffering and too little to Japan's brutality during and before World War II, and that it underestimated the number of Americans who would have perished in an invasion.

They said the bombing of Japan was an unmitigated blessing for the United States and the exhibit should say so.

Tibbets denounced it as "a damn big insult."

The museum changed its plan and agreed to display the fuselage of the Enola Gay without commentary, context or analysis.

He told the Dispatch in 2005 that he wanted his ashes scattered over the English Channel, where he loved to fly during the war.

Newhouse, Tibbets' longtime friend, confirmed that Tibbets wanted to be cremated, but he said relatives had not yet determined how he would be laid to rest."

My brother had the opportunity to meet and talk with Tibbets several times over the past 30 years (my brother married the daughter of a comarde of Tibbets who flew with him during the War).

The issue of the use of Atomic Weapons by the United States to end the WWII has remained controversial to this day.

I post this information here to remind readers that the one man who was involved in the discussions within the Truman administration on if the bomb shoud be used, who opposed that use, was future Warren Commissioner John J. McCloy.

During a meeting with Truman on June 18, 1945 McCloy argued in favor of an alternative diplomatic approach to achieve a surrender by the Japanese. McCloy wrote, "everyone was so intent on winning the war by military means that the introduction of political consideration was almost accidental."

Upon McCloy's advice "The Committee of Three" (Henry Stimson, James Forrestal and Joseph Grew) was assigned by President Truman to explore alternative inducements to make Japan surrender. McCloy wrote a proposal that included a demand that was incorporated in Article 12 of the Potsdam Proclamtion. The original draft of the Proclamation included language that would have allowed Japan to keep it emperor, a condition that would have greatly increased the chances of Japan's acceptance of surrender. After the atomic bombings, McCloy believed for the rest of his life that "we missed the opportunity of affecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping bombs" (References from "Nuclearfiles.org, a project of the nuclear age peace foundation).

McCloy based his position upon information he was receiving from intercepted coded Japanese messages. This information was provided to McCloy by the work of John B. Hurt (Declassified Hurt document written in 1947).

Five months before the assassination of JFK, McCloy would have a major disagreement with Kennedy over the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963 (as would Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Maxwell Taylor). McCloy refused to go to Moscow to negotiate the Treaty feeling that the time was right for a more comprehensive treaty.

Did McCloy have similar informtion in 1963 to what was available to him in 1945?

One thing is for certain, Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact someone named John Hurt after the assassination and the Warren Commission, that McCloy was a part of, neglected to share this information with the American public.

Searching through the historical record a little deeper we find that McCloy discussed the disadvantages upon the US Nuclear position that could be compromised at the Paris Summit (to be held the following May) in November of 1959. That Summit would never happen after Francis Gary Powers was downed while flying over the Soviet Union on May 1, 1960 (after a former Marine radar operator named Lee Harvey Oswald had defected to the Soviet Union and threatened to provide information to the Soviets about the U-2).

Did McCloy gain an advantage to his position after the defection of Lee Harvey Oswald and the downing of the U-2?

To me it is an argueable position to suggest that the failure of the Paris Summit played a role in the election of John F. Kenndy in 1960.

In the first words spoken by President John F. Kennedy at his first press conference on January 25, 1961 are here quoted:

"I have several announcements to make, first.

I have a statement about the Geneva negotiations for an atomic test ban. These negotiations, as you know, are scheduled to begin early in February. They are of great importance and we will neeed more time to prepare a clear American position. So we are consulting with other governments and are asking to have it put off until late March. As you know, Mr. John J. McCloy is my pricipal adviser in this field, and he has organized a distriguished parnel of experts......"

It is a historical fact that McCloy's position on Nuclear Arms talks were advanced as a result of the failure of the Paris Summit and the election of John F. Kennedy.

McCloy did not get his way in 1945. In 1963 McCloy did not get his way once again. Then Kennedy died and McCloy found himself back in Geneva and ultimatley did get his way with the signing of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 1968.

Jim Root

Duke

I am sorry that it has taken me so long to reply to your post. But let me attempt to address some of your issues.

'Whatever else there may be to such a trail, how do you - other than the DeMohrenschildt and Marina testimonies - arrive at LHO "attempting to assassination General Walker?"'

The note that Oswald left behind which handwritting experts from, I believe three different investigations say was written by Oswald, the photographs of Walker's residence that were recovered and examined that show construction work that was only done for a few days prior to the assassination attempt on Walker can be clearly seen in the background. So other than Marina's testimony there is actually some physical evidence as well. The rifle and pistol were both ordered and received just prior to the attempt on Walker's life as well as the back yard photos being taken.

"The bullet found in Walker's study wall was a mutilated, steel-jacketed, large (possibly .38) caliber slug. No bullets of such a nature have been tied to Oswald and certainly not to the Carcano, and other than supposition and speculation,"

We have the testimony of FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier that examined the mutilated bullet from the Walker incident and concluded that it contained "four lands and grooves" with a "right" twist that was consistant with a bullet that would have been fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle or one with similar barrel characteristics and that the "remaining physical characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano bullets...made for this rifle, 139."

For the sake of argument I would suggest that there is a great deal of evidence, physical and verbal, that suggests that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker. More importantly for me has been the question of "Why would Oswald attempt to assassinate Walker?" But let me first continue with your statements.....

"It is also fairly inconsistent to suggest that because someone shot at a liberal president (probably "extreme left wing" to some folks aound Dallas!) would also shoot at someone who was at the far opposite extreme. Maybe he only admired centrists?".....

unless both assassination attempts can be tied together under one motive (which is where my research has led me). First remember what this thread is about, a CIA assessment that suggests that it would be logical to believe that Oswald would be willing to assassinate the President based upon the fact that Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Walker and his pro Castro feelings that could be traced back to his Marine days in El Toro back in 1959. (and I quote once again):

"'must be considered of great significance in light of the pathological evolution of Oswald's passive aggressive behavior after his attempt to kill (Castro hater) General (Edwin) Walker early in April 1963 and his identification with Fidel Castro and the Cuban revolution, which is directly traceable as far back as his Marine Corps service in El Toro, California."

"First, it must be established the Oswald shot at Walker - which can't be done beyond inference - before you can walk that primrose path."

According to the testimony of James Patrick Hosty the FBI began monitoring Oswald's movements based upon a report dated April 21st, 1963 (eleven days after the assassination attempt on Walker). The following is from the testimony of Agent Hosty:

Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"

Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.

Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?

Mr. HOSTY. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.

Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?

Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.

Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. STERN. In what connection?

Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.

Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?

Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.

Mr. STERN. And you found what?

Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.

Eleven days after the assassination attempt on Walker a internal FBI memo is sent out directing agents to begin monitoring the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald. From that point on we now know that the information derived from Agent Hosty in Dallas and the New Orleans FBI Agent was being directed to Richard Helms of the CIA. This information was witheld from the Warren Commission although Richard Helms office would become the pointman for providing information requested by the Warren Commission and the HSCA.

We also know from this Belin note that it could have been predicted that Oswald would be willing to assassinate the President if it was known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker.

So we have a very interesting coincidence, a man that the CIA says would be willing to assassinate the President begins being monitored by the CIA within days after the event that would provide the imputus for the CIA to know that Oswald would be willing to assassinate the President did occured.

But lets not stop here. To add additional coincidences we have the fact that of the three Hosty notes that were written only two were given WC Exhibit numbers and those two have been tracked to the office of Richard Helms of the CIA (an organization that the Belin note suggests would be able to predict that Oswald would be the assassin of the President based upon his assassination attempt on Walker and his known pro Castro leaning from 1959). The third Hosty note, the one that says exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working (information that would be important for any conspirators that may have wanted Kennedy eliminated) was not given a Commission Exhibit number although this information would seem rather important. (McCloy would do alot of the questioning of Hosty but would neglect to assign an exhibit number to this important document). Days after the third Hosty note is written the motorcade route is designed and the absolute furthest point that it would travel, the final building that it would pass before backtracking to the Trade Mart luncheon just happens to be the building in which Oswald, the man the CIA could have predicted would assassinate the President based upon the Walker incident, is working.

But only people who would have known that Walker had been shot at and who also could have surmized that it was Oswald who would have done this deed would have been capable of knowing that Oswald would shoot at the President. These same people who could surmize this information would then have to have a reason why they would want the President dead and how they would have to be capable of covering up the fact that they would have been involved.

This is a tough order to fill, but a deeper look at the life of General Edwin Walker may provide a clue into this potential bed of conspirators.

As Chief of Staff of the Army, Maxwell Taylor turned to General Walker for two of the four crisis of his administration, The First Straits of Taiwan Crisis and the Crisis at Little Rock. In both cases Walker is refered to as Taylor's old comrade in arms as well he be considered an old friend since the Walker Taylor relationship first began in 1929 when Walker became a student at West Point and developed over the next four years while Taylor was an instructor there. Taylor would guide and direct Walkers career the whole time that he was in the military. In June (the same month that Hosty began monitoring Oswalds movements that were forwarded to the CIA) Taylor was in a major dispute with Kennedy over the Limited Test Ban Treaty with the Soviets (as the notes of a NSC meeting at the time suggests, Kennedy told Taylor to shut up this was now US policy and Taylor continued to argue with the President). If there was an important job to do Taylor, as has been shown, did not hesitate to trust Walker with the most sensitve assignments.

But there is still more.. At the time Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki on his way to defect to the Soviet Union the Warren Commission via the CIA did not identify how Oswald accomplished this trip. Although passenger lists were still availble for the flights into Helsinki in October of 1959 the CIA failed and the Warren Commission failed to produce these records leaving us to speculate that there may have been a sensitive name on those lists who may have traveled with Oswald or met him during his travels. General Walker was traveling in Europe at the same time and in earlier posts I have explained how it is possible that two could have crossed paths by using flight records derived from Fin Air for the time period of October of 1959.

One might ask for what purpose. One day before Oswald arrived in Helsinki the US Ambassador to Helsinki, John Hickerson, provided information that stated that if one were to show up at the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki and if one were to have purchased First Class Intourist vouchers before one would arrive at the Soviet Embassy the Soviet Ambassador could issue a visa into the USSR within 24 hours. Oswald followed these instruction exactly (perhaps by coincidence, perhaps after someone with a sensitive name who met Oswald as he traveled from London passed this classified information to him). But for what purpose would US Intillegence want a former Marine Radar Operator who had knowledge of the U-2 spy plane to enter Russia and perhaps share information about the U-2?

Within days of Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union a meeting of the principle US arms negotiators would take place. One of the topics of that meeting would be the fear that this group had that at the Paris Summit that would be taking place in May of the following year the US would be forced, by international pressure, into signing a Limited Test Ban Treaty that would be a danger to US security. Agreeing with this concern would be none other than future Warren Commissioner John J. McCloy. The Paris Summit would never occur after the downing of Francis Gary Powers and his U-2 over the Soviet Union on May 1, 1960. Was Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union a plan to sabatoge this Summit? Who could be trusted with passing the information to easily gain entry into the Soviet Union to Oswald. Oswald did, some how, stumble into the Soviet Embassy with exactly what was needed to gain easy access into Russia. Was Oswald being used as a "patsy" to do the work of John J. McCloy?

Kennedy would be elected in a very close election (one that I will suggest would not have gone in Kennedy's favor if the Paris Summit had resulted in the signing of the Limited Test Ban Treaty and the Powers incident never would have occured). In his first press conference Kennedy would announce the resumption of nuclear testing and the appointment of his chief arms negotiator John J. McCloy. It could be argued that without the Powers incident and if the Paris Summit would have occured, McCloy would never have attained the position that Kennedy, in his first press conference, put McCloy into. In June of 1963 McCloy would refuse to go to the USSR and negotiate Kennedy's new policy for a limited test ban treaty and would openly speak of his discust for Kennedy's failure to use the international climate that existed after the Cuban Missle Crisis to press the Soviets for a Comprehensive Nuclear Treaty.

After Kennedy's death McCloy would again be in Geneva, appointed by LBJ to negotiate with the Soviets the arms treatys that would follow in the years after the assassination.

In this same month, June of 1963, that FBI agent Hosty would begin monitoring Oswalds movements, movements that were being reported to the highest levels of US Intelligence, perhaps just by coincidence McCloy would write a letter to Walker that would be deposited in a very easy to discover place (although to my knowledge I was the first to uncover it (I have now discovered two additional copies of that same note).

Walker himself would display, at best, some rather unusual behavior when he heard of the assassination while traveling by air to Shreveport, LA. He would identify himself to everyone on the plane. The next morning, at exactly 7am, Walker would rerceive the first of two phone calls made to his hotel room where he would be interviewed by a German newspaper reporter. The following Thursday that paper would print, in Germany, the story of Oswald's attempted assassination of General Walker. The FBI would begin its investigation of the Walker incident only after the German newspaper story had been published.

"It is also fairly inconsistent to suggest that because someone shot at a liberal president (probably "extreme left wing" to some folks aound Dallas!) would also shoot at someone who was at the far opposite extreme. Maybe he only admired centrists?"

So what was Oswald's motive for shooting at both Walker and Kennedy. Perhaps it was exactly what Oswald said, the reason he was being arrested was because he had gone to the Soviet Union, he was a "patsy!"

Duke there are three things which are ommited from the Warren Commission Report that everyone today (no matter where you stand on the conspiracy question would agree).

1. What plane/s did Oswald use to travel to Helsinki from London and who else was on those planes?

2. Why did the Warren Commission fail to give the third Hosty note an Exhibit number?

3. Why did the Warren Commission fail to identify the fact that Oswald attempted to make a phone call to someone named John Hurt just hours before he himself was killed?

While I have written about the first two above I must close while dealing with the final of these three ommissions. I discovered information about John B. Hurt (30 year employee of the NSA) while investigating the military career of Edwin Walker. Walker's first association with Hurt's group would come about in the mid 1930's and Walker can again be associated with this group in 1941. (All intelligence work that John B. Hurt did between 1947 and his retirement in 1963 is still classified to this day).

McCloy was associated with Hurt beginning in 1940 and Taylor at least by the same time. Both Meredith Gardner and Frank Rowlett, who would investigate Oswald's potential intelligence connections would be involved with this same John B. Hurt for 20 years in the case of Gardner and 32 years in the case of Rowlett. Gardner and Rowlett would be in charge of the Venona Project (breaking Soviet codes) that began when Hurt intercepted some coded messeges from Tokyo to the Soviet Union during WWII where the Japanese were attempting to negotiate an end to hostilities between the Soviets and the Germans.

Operation Stella Polaris would again find Hurt, Rowlett and Gardner involved together but by coincidence it seems that Walker was involved as well. While coincidental perhaps the number of coincidences seem to be mounting rather high.

If it were known that Oswald could be associated with US Intelligence, via his attempt to contact John Hurt, the ability of US Intelligence to deny any involvement in the assassination would become very difficult. (To me this easily explains why so many agencys would follow the lead of the Warren Commission in ommiting certain information about Oswald, his travel to the Soviet Union, that the CIA was monitoring his every move in the months before the assassiantion and that Oswald had attempted to contact someone that at minimum shared a name with a very highly placed and important (all his work is still classified to this day) intelligence asset named John Hurt.

Is this story totally out of the question.....Oswald the intelligence asset, the patsy that he said that he was who had been used by US Intelligence?????

As John J. McCloy himself said in an interview with Edward J. Epstein (June 7, 1963), "I still believe it is possible some document will turn up showing Oswald may have been an agent. Not necessarily a conspiracy but an agent gone haywire."

Agent "gone haywire?" Exactly what the Belin note suggests! But perhaps only McCloy himself, the founder of the modern US Intelligence system, would have had the access to all these pieces of information and only perhaps McCloy would have known what would happen if Oswald was given the opportunity to shoot at President Kennedy. To cover up this crime Hosty's third note could never be discovered, the fact that Oswald attempted to contact John Hurt could never become known and how and why Oswald ended up at the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki could never be divulged. McCloy, the man who cracked the Black Tom case after over twenty years of failed attempts allowed these three important pieces of information (information that could point the finger at McCloy) slip by the Warren Commission and fail to make it into the final report.

Jim Root

Tim

Thank you for the WC information. It seems that you agree that the route was decided after the Nov. 4th Hosty note was sent.

Allow me to add some additional information taken from Warren Commission Exhibit Number 2113:

First: Was information available to potential conspirators that could have influenced the route planning?

With the work of Jefferson Morley and John Newman we have learned that at least two notes sent by FBI agent James Hosty about the doings of Lee Harvey Oswald in the months preceding the assassination was forwarded to the office of Richard Helms within days after being sent. Although Hosty’s November 4th note, which provided the crucial information about where Oswald was working (TSBD) was never given a Warren Commission Exhibit number we can logically assume that this Hosty note made it to the same office as his previous note (one which Morley and Newman were able to track because it has never been revealed to the public).

The planning for the motorcade was not completed until days after the Hosty note was sent and possibly not until the information about where Oswald was working was in the hands of Richard Helms, the CIA and perhaps others who would have access to this information for whatever potential reasons that we may speculate upon.

Second: Looking at a map of the motorcade approach (Commission Exhibit No. 2113) I noticed several interesting facts:

1. The turn from Houston to Elm is approx. 135 degrees rather than the normal 90 degree left hand turn (difficult turn for the buses in the motorcade).

2. If one wished to enter the Stemmons Freeway from Commerce St. (from either direction) one would be routed to Elm via Lamar not Houston (four blocks before Houston).

3. Lamar offers access to the Stemmons Freeway via Continental Ave. without the security risk of the Triple Underpass (but this route was not taken and a 135 degree turn in front of the SBDm where Oswald worked was choosen instead).

4. According to Commission Exhibit No. 2113 access to Elm could have been gained by a right turn then left onto Elm via anyone of these roads: Lamar, Austin, Market or Record (avoiding the 135 degree turn and the slowing of the motorcade).

5. The Houston to Elm route provides a view of both the approach (along Houston) of the motorcade and (after the 135 degree turn) the departure of the motorcade from a person (or sniper) on the upper floors of the TSBD Building,

6. The (approx.) 135 degree turn onto Elm requires the motorcade to slow considerably to accomplish this turn and would be dificult for the buses.

7. Once the turn onto Elm is accomplished there is no escape route for the Presidential Limousine until after it has passed below the Triple Underpass and entered the Stemmons Freeway.

8. Any shot fired while the motorcade was approaching Elm from Houston would have allowed two possible escape routes for the Presidential Limousine(continuing down Houston or turning right onto Elm (instead of left) making this shot a less favorable shot decision for a person in the TSBD Building.

9. The only building on the complete motorcade route that has a view of both the approach of the motorcade and then views its departure is the TSBD.

10. “If” conspirators existed who wanted to give Lee Harvey Oswald the most favorable opportunity possible to assassinate the President they could not have selected a better motorcade route.

11. Information was available to potential conspirators within the intelligence community of the US Govenment (via the Hosty note) of where Oswald was working.

11. As I have demonstrated there were alternative routes, which from a security approach, were safer to access the Stemmons Freeway, from Main St. (via Lamar would not have subjected the President to the threat that the Triple Underpass provided) and there were alternative ways to access Elm (rather than negotiating a 135 degree turn in front of the TSBD) rather than from Houston (Record, Market, Austin or Lamar).

Third: It is my belief that the conspirators could not have provided Lee Harvey Oswald with a better opportunity to assassinate the President.

Fourth: They (the conspirators) would have to have (a plausible reason to provide the Warren Commissioners) reason to believe that Oswald would take “the shot.”

Which returns me wher this topic began: The CIA letter to David W. Belin where the CIA suggests that if it were known that Oswald had shot at Walker then Oswald was a prime candidate to assassinate the President based upon his pro-Castro feelings that were known as far back as 1959 while Oswald was in Santa Ana, CA.

An assassin given opportunity and the note that could provide information about who knew where Oswald was working was never given a Commission Exhibit number dispite the fact that John J. McCloy was involved with the questioning of Agent Hosty about the Nov. 4, 1963 note.

Jim Root

Tim wrote:

"Oh, come on, Jim. You know, I assume, that the parade route was dictated by the choice of the place for the JFK luncheon at the Trade Mart."

I assure you Tim that I would not make such a statement without first consulting a map of the downtown Dallas area. Simply put Dealey Plaza is South of Love Field. The Trade Mart is North of Dealey Plaza. The motorcade went all the way out past the School Book Depository building then was to backtrack to the Trade Mart. There were several places where the motorcade could have turned right and still arrived at its destination without passing the place where Oswald worked and without passing under the triple underpass (which seems to have been a concern of the Secrete Service at some stage of the planning).

In other words the parade route was not "dictated by the choice of the place for the JFK luncheon at the Trade Mart." But the route was decided by persons in Washington D.C. and not by those on the scene in Dallas.

On the other hand it is a FACT that the parade route was decided upon after Agent Hosty sent his note of November 4th that indicated where Oswald was working. It is a FACT that at least two of Hosty's previous notes were directed to the Office of Richard Helms. It is a FACT that of Hosty's three known notes about Oswald only the one that detailed where Oswald was working was not given a Commission Exhibit Number. It is a FACT that McCloy was involved in questioning Hosty and at minimum failed to give this crucial note an exhibit number (according to VB attempting to conceal information that could prove guilt can be used to prove conciousness of a crime). It is a fact that Richard Helms was the laison to the Warren Commission and never voluteered the information that he had about Oswald.

At what point to we begin to take a serious look at factual infromation (that was left out of the Warren Commission Report) that can point to the negligence at best of those that investigated the death of the President for the American people?

What do you think it might have ben that McCloy and Helms were witholding from the American people Tim? Could it possibly have been that the assassination could have been avoided if information about Oswald would have been shared with the SS? While on the suface this would appear to be true but if there was prior knowledge that Oswald was the person who had attempted to take the life of General Walker then President Kennedy may have been directed into the path of bullets falling from the sixth flool of the SBD by those that had knowledge of Oswald's willingness to kill for his beliefs.

Oswald didn't have to be hired. Oswald only had to be given the opportunity. By planning for the motorcade to go beyound where it needed to go to get to the Trade Mart, the planners of the parade route provided the opportunity for Oswald to kill (or be blamed for killing) the President. But it is a fact that the parade route did not have to pass the SBD Builing to get to the Trade Mart!

And JFK did die as a result of the wounds he received at that location!

Jim Root

Bernice

Thank you for the reply. I was able to find the info and it is useful. Interesting to reread the Richard Helms testimony in lite of the John Newman/Jefferson Morley informtion. At best he seems to stonewall whild at least pretending to answer the question that were asked. Does not volunteer much info though or shed lite on the reasons why he/they/CIA wers so interested in Oswald after the assassination attempt on Walker had occured.

The other piece of information that I found was that Helms tells us that it was the "counter intelligence" department that was handling the Warren Commissions inquiries about Oswald. I had not recalled seeing that before. For me this information sheds additional light on Epstein's interview with James Jesus Angelton and the Orchid Man article that resulted from those interviews. More importantly, I have gathered enough information on Edwin Anderson Walker to believe that his military career was centered around his counter intelligence activities.

But I digress from this thread.

Once again, according to this CIA assessment we make the suggestion that "IF" someone within US Intelligence had known that Oswald had shot at Walker then that someone could have drawn the conclusion that Oswald would be willing to shoot at the President. I do not suggest that this is proof of anything. But it does support my thesis that IF Oswald had been used by US Intelligence and his trip to Russia was an intelligence operation (with or without Oswald's knowledge of it being a US Intelligence operation, "Orchid Man") then someone may have already assessed Oswald mental state by 1959. Upon his return to the US only those that had handled his entry into the Soviet Union would know the details of the operation that had "used" Oswald and only those few people would be in a position to assess Oswald's mental state in the summer of 1963.

I know that most people do not want to accept a conspiracy that includes Oswald as a shooter because so much work has been done in an attempt to prove conspiracy by proving that there was more than one shooter. While much speculation has led to many seemingly plausible explanations the sheer number of the plausible shooters and the sheer number of people needed to execute the various plans that are suggested becomes so ponderous as to defy the possibility that no one has been able to positively prove, to the majority of people, that any one of these conspiracy theories are the ONE correct and proveable ONE.

For myself I have been able to piece together a consistant, albeit convoluted theory that began by following a trail of Oswald attempting to assassinate General Walker. It can identify the potential conspirators that had the ability to direct the motorcade, who would have had access to information about Oswald's place of employment, who had a motive and who had the ability to direct the investigation that was done by the Warren Commission. This group of conspirators would have worked together for years and understood the inner workings of the highest levels of US Intelligence, What is even more important this small group would have known how to guarentee that Oswald would not survive or be able to tell his story to the American people, by assuring that he himself would put into motion the wheels of US Intelligence to assassinate him after he (Oswald) attempted to make a phone call and mentioned the name John Hurt.

The story is not simple. It has many many pieces that link together but it climaxes in the death of Kennedy and the primary potential conspirator, John J. McCloy getting exactly what he wanted after the death of President John F. Kennedy.

McCloy was the winner in his dispute with Kennedy even if you do not wish to accept the possibility of a conspiracy that involves McCloy and uses Oswald as a shooter!!

Jim Root

Fom VB's book Page 941

"The CIA, for one, thought the Harker article could have had a connection to Oswald's act of murder. In response to an April 15, 1975, inquiry from David W. Belin, the former Warren Commission assistant counsel who was then the executive director of the Rockefeller Commission on CIA activities, the agency wrote on May 30, 1975, that since Oswald was 'an avid newspaper reader-which we know from the testimony of Marina Oswald and others-' the 'assumption' was that Oswald had 'read the Castro warning and threat' in the New Orleans Times-Picayune. And that if he indeed did, it 'must be considered of great significance in light of the pathological evolution of Oswald's passive aggressive behavior after his attempt to kill (Castro hater) General (Edwin) Walker early in April 1963 and his identification with Fidel Castro and the Cuban revolution, which is directly traceable as far back as his Marine Corps service in El Toro, California."

1st: Does anyone have a copy of this letter?

2nd: If I read this correctly it is suggesting that the CIA could have foreseen the "pathological evolution of Oswald's passive aggressive behavior after his attempt to kill General Walker early in April 1963..." IF they had know that it was Oswald that had attempted to kill General Walker.

Fact, the FBI monitoring of Oswald's movements began shortly after the Walker assassination attempt. The FBI monitoring began after an event in Dallas (passing out Pro Castro materials) that Agent Hosty did not believe ever occured. Was the monitoring of Oswald's movements a result of passing out pro Castro materials (that may or may not have happened) or a result of someone guessing that it was Oswald that had attempted to assassinate Walker. The timing is impecable once again or just another coincidence like so many others that I have pointed out.

If, as I have suggested, the "BIG FISH" would have known that Oswald had a motive for shooting at Walker (or if, as Walker himself would later suggest, if Oswald had been arrested and released after that failed asssassination attempt), when would the CIA have been able to predict that Oswald would become a killer? It seems that this Belin letter would suggest that a profile could have been developed on Oswald right after the failed assassination attempt on Walker.

If this is true there are two important points that would have had to have been covered up by the Warren Commission.

1. Any relationship or meeting that could have taken place between Walker and Oswald.

2. The fact that the motorcade would be directed past where Oswald was working after it was known where this potential assassin was working.

We can prove that the Warren Commission failed to identify the passenger lists for the planes (Oswald had to take a minimum of two different planes) that Oswald boarded on his flight from London to Helsinki. We can also prove that Ambassador Hickerson sent a note that provided the direction necessary to gain entry into the Soviet Union via the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki one day before Oswald's arrival in that country. We can prove that Oswald followed these direction either by coincidence or by plan. We also know that Walker was also traveling and can show that they could have been on the same plane (thank you Antti).

As I have been suggesting for years it is possible that Walker provided Ambassador Hickerson's information to Oswald.

If Walker did provide this information....Oswald had motive to shoot at Walker. Only the "BIG FISH" (who had assigned Walker to pass info to Oswald) would know that Oswald would have had a motive to shoot at Walker! The cover for following Oswald would be his Pro Castro activites....the real motive may have been Kennedy's trip to Dallas on November 22, 1963 (Letters exchanged by John J. McCloy and Edwin Walker in June of 1963).

This Belin letter suggests that the "BIG FISH" may also have been able to know that Oswald was capable of killing the President if he was given the opportunity!

To me this is BIG!

Thoughts

Jim Root

Tim

First the how:

According to McCloy's biographer Kai Bird, "..only after wheedling a reluctant promise from Warren to chair the Commission did Johnson approach McCloy. As a Republican who had served Kennedy, the Milbank, Tweed lawyer was an ideal choice. Johnson's chief behind the scenes advisor, Abe Fortas, suggestedMcCloy's name. Fortas had known McCloy ever since their occasional tiffs during World War II over the intenment of the Japanese Americans. He was also aware of McCloy's prewar detective work on the Black Tom case. In addition to everything else that McClo symbolized-bipartisanship, a deep and long familiarity with the law, and a reputation for sound and sober judgment in serving four previous presidents- his Black Tom credentials made him peculiarly suited for the purpose at hand."

The why:

It has been suggested that McCloy was added because he was "trusted" by the Europeans. McCloy himself would say that he didn't want the US viewed as some "Bannana Republic" that could oust a leader in a political coup.

The reality:

McCloy did not followup on Oswald's travel to Russia (travel of German Agents was used in uncovering those responsible for Black Tom) dispite the fact that even in the period of WWI US Intelligence could track the movements of most anyone around the world.

While involved in the questioning of Agent Hosty it was reveiled that 18 days before the assassination of JFK Hosty had filed a report that stated where Oswald was working. This report was not given a Commission Exhibit Number (although two other reports by Hosty were). This is at beat a formidable error on the great investigator McCloy's part. The people who had access to this report, provided before the motorcade route was decided upon, could have been potential conspirators but were never investigated because the report was only mentioned in Agent Hosty's testimony.

The fact that Oswald's call, while in custody, to someone named John Hurt is never mentioned in the Commission Report is a serious ommission at best. The fact that a John Hurt had worked directly for John J. McCloy prior to and during WWII seems to be a strange coincidence at best. During Congressional hearings on the intenment of Japanese during WWII, McCloy speaks a great deal about the information he was receiving from the"Magic" intercepts. He speaks specifically of information that was translated and enhanced with additonal notes by John B. Hurt which was provided for him as the decissions were being made to intern the Japanese.

Looking at the state of mind prior to the assassination of JFK"

McCloy had played a major role in the negotiations that led to a successfull end to the Cuban Missle Crisis. He felt that there was a perfect opportunity to parley this moment in history to achieve substantial progress in disarmament talks with the Soviets. Kennedy balked at the idea, so much so that McCloy refused to go to Moscow to negotiate the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963. In discussions with Dwight Eisenhower McCloy shared his concerns with the lack of logical leadership that the Kennedy brothers were displaying in international dealings with the Soviets. McCloy expressed a desire to have a Republican in the White House but felt that there were none that could win the 1964 election. McCloy was upset with Kennedy's waffleling on Vietnam and felt that we should lay off of Castro and Cuba if we expected the Soviets to act in a civilized maner in other parts of the world. In this respect McCloy's views were very much aligned with what Oswald was advocating, Hands Off Cuba, because McCly did not see Cuba as an important area to gamble US credibility upon. McCloy also knew that the Soviets wanted a no invasion guarentee on Cuba, something that the Kennedy's refused to go along with as Bobby Kennedy continued to support covert opperations against Castro.

Interestingly enough we now know that it would be Bobby's intrigues that produced the reason why Oswald's pro-Cuban activities and movements were being monitored in the months procceeding the assassination of JFK. In, perhaps an unitentional slip, it would be Edwin Anderson Walker that would suggest that Bobby Kennedy had allowed Oswald to continue his activities after the failed assassination attempt on Walker (after which the FBI began to monitor Oswald's activities and movements).

How did Walker know that it was actually Bobby Kennedy's program that was monitoring Oswald even though this information would not become public untill years later?

It seems that Walker was right on the money in this particular understanding of what was occuring in US - Cuban affairs and knew that Oswald was an important player in some espionage game that would absorb the interest in those at the highest levels of the CIA.

How did Walker know that this was true at that time unless he could surmize what was actually going on with Oswald (leading us to additional questions about Oswald and Walker)?

Jim Root

Michael

Thank you for the kind words.

John

It is very difficult for me to fill in all the "gaps" within the confines of these posts. I have so much information that I have been collecting over the past 13 or so years. The picture that has unfolded before my eyes is a very complex puzzle with a myriad of pieces. Each piece that I have found is creating a clearer and clearer picture but there is one problem with my picture, at least as far as most people on this forum would be concerned. The picture that I am looking at has been brought into focus by examining what motive Lee Harvey Oswald would have had for shooting at Major General Edwin Anderson Walker.

It seems that most on this Forum do not believe that Oswald shot at Walker. If true the information that I have found would lead nowhere but my problem is that the information that I have found leads directly to Oswald having a motive to shoot at Walker. This seems to create a complex delemma for most who are here. If my information is correct there was a conspiracy that involved Oswald as shooter. I wish that someone could show me where the information that I have discovered (by following this trail) is nothing more than a series of coincidences so numerous as to make the probability of their not leading directly toward John J. McCloy and Maxwell Taylor as the two primary conspirators impossible. Why do they lead to this conclusion and this conclusion alone?

By researching the life of Walker I have found a connection to John B. Hurt, John J. McCloy, Oswald's defecion to the Soviet Union, counter intelligence operations, etc., etc.

You wrote: "Norway, Walker: Norway was the last ally of Germany to Surrender, it was also at the time a significant source of heavy water, which I suggest made it very important for the Nazis. Walker (based there) repatriated POW's and at one period was seriously involved in the process of negotiating the Surrender of Germany with Norway as a base.

Norway, Walker, Repatriation: how significant was this in the movement of Ukranian (and others) Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (many of them ex EinsatzGruppen Kommando personnell (death squads) to the US (New Jersey (where Oswald disembarked and spent a night)) South/Latin America and the Middle East, all later locations of significant Human Rights Abuse and many of the problems the world faces today.) (Ewald Peters (KriminalRat,German head of security and among the entourage that visited LBJ a his Ranch in Dec '63, friend of USofA SS presidential Detail personnell and head of scurity of Kennedy's German visits and unmasked in Feb '64 as a commander of the EinastzGruppen that operated around Minsk (stay behind? Ghelen?) (arrested and 'committed suicide' jail shortly after arrest. (unmasked by East German Nazi hunters)."

Good questions. What I can say is that Walker was involved in the processing of large numbers of people or POW's three times during his military career. He became known as an expert within the military community for this prowess. The question becomes was Walker assigned to search for potential intelligence assets to be used by US Intelligence. It is my belief (and I feel I have enough documentation to show) that Walker was deeply involved in couner intelligence as opposed to intelligence gathering. As such, it is my belief that Walker was a trusted hand in dealing with the most sensitive counter intel operations that the US was involved in both overseas and abroad. Is it a coincidence that he was traveling in Europe at the same time as Oswald was traveling to Helsinki? Is it a coincidence that the Warren Report did not provide passenger lists for the routes that Oswald used to travel to Helsinki? Is it a coincidence that Antti was able to discover additional routes that Oswald could have used to get to Helsinki that would be the same routes that Walker would have used to get to Augsburg? Is it a coincidence that Oswald showed up at the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki with his first class Intourist vouchers in hand (information that was obtained by the US Ambassador in Helsinki one day before Oswald arrived)?

If my information is correct, as I believe that it is, the Walker described within the Warren Commission Report is not the Walker that was the trusted sidekick of Maxwell Taylor.

Who was Walker? Why has his real military career been obsured by his post Kennedy election career? Is the Walker connection the key to unravelling the truth surrounding the assassination of JFK?

At least for me, the examination of the life of E. A. Walker has been a trip into the world of international espionage that paints a picture all to clear.

Please feel free to ask specific questions and I will attempt to provide the answers that clarify the assassination story as I have seen it unfold.

Jim Root.

Nathaniel

I will acknowledge my ignorance in the area of Cord Meyer and the World Federalists.

Having said that I will speak to what I have discovered about John J. McCloy.

1) He was a Warren Commissioner and was therefore in a position to be involved in a coverup of the details of a conspiracy if in fact there was a conspiracy to assassinate the President of the United States.

2) At the time of the assassination McCloy was on the "outs" with Kennedy and his adminsitration in the area of Arm Negotiations with the Soviets.

3) After the assassination of JFK McCloy would once again be on center stage in the arms negotiations with the Soviets.

4) John J. McCloy had used information provided by John B. Hurt to advise at least one US President in dealing with Nuclear Affairs.

5) John J. McCloy exchanged letters with Edwin Anderson Walker within days of Kennedy's change in position on Arms negotiations with the Soviets and McCloy's resignation as Chief Arms Negotiator for the Kennedy Administration.

6) McCloy consistantly advocated negotiations with the Soviets and was respected by the Soviet leadership for his open approach to negotiations with the Eastern Block.

7) McCloy, on at least two occassions, was aware of or assigned Edwin Walker (during WWII) to sensitive missions that McCloy took a particular interest in.

8) McCloy accomplished his desired results in limiting the spread of nuclear weapons only after the assassination of JFK.

Jim Root

William

From all the information that I have gathered the "Raleigh" call was outgoing (there is an existing tape of a news reporter giving the account that Oswald attempted to make an outgoing call done hours or minutes before Oswald's own death). The account of Alveeta Treon, who disclosed information about the Raleigh call to the HSCA) makes it an outgoing call from Oswald.

I to have read the report that the wife of one of the two John Hurt's whose numbers were recovered by Alveeta A. Treon (from two numbers written by Louise Swinney) made a comment, after the death of her husband, that he had attempted to call Oswald while drunk. Because of the contempory news account saying that the call was outgoing and the fact that the John Hurt in question had denied that he had made or received any call while he was living casts a shadow on the statement made by his wife after her death.

The story details Oswald's attempt to make a "collect" call and that Mrs. Swinney had written down two numbers. Since Mrs. Treon came into work later than Mrs. Swinney she caught only part of the story. Some of the things that I speculate on are:

1) Before Oswald called the switchboard two SS agents were already in place because Oswald was going to make a call. Had Oswald already provided the infromation to the operator about the number he wished to call on a person to person collect call?

2) Why would Oswald provide two different numbers for two different John Hurts if Oswald knew who he was calling? Did Mrs. Swinney take it upon herself to locate two additional numbers for John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina when the person at the other end of the line refused the call from LHO or did not acknowledge that a John Hurt was at that number? Was the name "John Hurt" supposed to mean something to the person who was contacted? Did the use of the name "John Hurt" by LHO assure the death of LHO?

3) Oswald had used the switchboard to find the number for Jonathon Abt, the attorney he wished to use and Oswald made "person to person" collect calls in his failed attempts to reach Abt. Person to person calls at that time took time for an operator to place. This would allow Mrs. Swinney to know in advance that Oswald would be comming back on the line (which she did know and told Mrs. Treon that information) and would allow the opportunity for SS agents to be in place to be assured that Oswald was in fact attempting to contact a John Hurt.

None of this information made it into the Warren Commission report and according to the two John Hurt's whose numbers were recovered no one ever attempted to interview them as to why Oswald would attempt to call them at the time that the FBI and the CIA were investigating the assassination in 1964. They were not investigated until the HSCA did the investigation. This seems very strange unless the US Intelligence agents knew the John Hurt that LHO was attempting to contact was not actually a John Hurt whose number was listed in Raleigh, North Carolina.

I cannot believe that the FBI and CIA (NSA) would not have been all over the two John Hurts whose numbers Mrs. Seinney had written down if Lee Harvey Oswlad did actually attempt to contact either one of them. On the other hand if the CIA/NSA wanted to keep the name John Hurt from ever becoming known they would not wish to do an investigation of individuals with that name in conjunction with the investigation of the assassination of JFK (which is what seems to have happened).

Allow me to speculate further. According to my research there are several people of interest surrounding the investigation that was conducted on Oswald's potential intelligence contacts. The two people that we know were involved were Frank Rowlett and Meredith Gardner who worked for the NSA. Both Rowlett and Gardner worked closely with a real person named John B. Hurt. Both Rowlett and Gardner were involved with a World War Two era OSS operation known as Stella Polaris which began with an intercepted Japanese message (translated by Hurt). The operation centered around the movement Finish code breakers that had apparently been successful in breaking Soviet Codes. (Didn't Oswald enter the Soviet Union via Finland.....but I digress).

Rowlett and Gardner would be the two primary leaders in the successful efforts to break Soviet Codes known as the Venona Project (which was still ongoing at the time of the assassination of JFK). Despite, or perhaps because of, their work on Venona, Rowlett and Gardner would be assigned to investigate Oswald who had attempted to call a person named Hurt who was involved in the beginnings of the Venona Project. The report that Rowlett and Gardner submitted to the CIA for the Warren Commission remained classified for 40 years, why? Where their names and their work and their association with John B. Hurt too sensitive for public consumption?

This aforementioned World War II era operation was named Stella Polaris because the Norwegian ship that was dispatched to move the Finnish code breakers to neutral Sweeden was named the Stella Polaris. (There is a very good possibility that this ship was actually dispatched by Edwin Walker from Norway) Another man involved with this operation was Win Scott (in Mexico at the time that Oswald went to Mexico and a person that seems to have played a role in the Oswald/ Kennedy assassination mystery) and an OSS agent named Calvin Bryce Hoover who, as it turns out was a professor at Duke University in Raleigh Durham, North Carolina at the time of the assassination. Hoover remained a known CIA asset throughout his career.

While all of this may just be coincidence we have the known fact that nothing of the Raleigh call ever made it into the Warren Report, nothing! This is more than strange when you consider the signifigance of LHO attempting to contact a person just hours before he himself would die.

Was the person that Oswald attempted to call a CIA "cut out" as has been speculated for years? Was the name John Hurt a code word that would alert the "cut out" to the fact that Oswald had ties to someone at a very high level within US Intelligence (as John B. Hurt was)? Would this information assure the elimination of Oswald by US Intelligence (to prevent Oswald's association with US Intelligence from ever becomming known)? Would the conspirators be in a possition of knowing that if LHO provided the name of John Hurt to the right contact that the wheels would be put into motion to assure Oswalds's death without the conspirators having to order that death themselves? Didn't Oswald tell his own brother, while in custody, that he had contacts in some very high places?

John B. Hurt's work for the National Security Agency and its developmental organizations is still classified to this day! Why?

Jim Root

As I reread this post I find it interesting that Leslie Groves played an intersting role in the development of plans on how to use the scientific knowledge surrounding the sharing of atomic technology and that he seems to have been on the same side as McCloy.

In June of 1963 Groves would be the "go between" for an exchange of letters between future Warren Commissioner John J. McCloy and Oswald assassination target Major General Edwin Anderson Walker.

Coincidence perhps but I continue to believe that Nuclear Arms negotiations may have been the deciding factor in the assassination of JFK and that Edwin Walker may have been the one man who would have known exactly who was behind the assassination as soon as he saw that Oswald had been arrested for killing the President.

Jim Root

Tim

I'm going to repost what I wrote a few posts up. Try to follow the logic.

Tim

If Lee Harvey Oswald was the shooter the greatest dis-information campaign has been to make the American public believe that he was not the shooter. If that has been the intent of US Intelligence, they have been successful. If they were involved in the assassination, they were also succcessful because more that 40 years later we have not uncovered the information that proves any sort of conspiracy capable of convincing a majority of the people.

For myself I have tried to develop a motive for why Oswald would have attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker. That trail has led to everything I have posted.

The three points (coverups?) I spoke of above all come from my research and are all proveable, travel, Hosty note and Raleigh Call yet are not incorporated into the Warren Report. I continue to ask why?

Maybe we should take Oswald at his word. If he was a Patsy of US Intelligence perhaps he had a motive to shoot the President. But if this is true only those that dispatched him to Helsinki would have understood this. If Walker, as I believe is possible, met Oswald on his way to Helsinki, it would explain alot.

Would you agree that if Oswald met Walker while traveling to Helsinki the assassiantion story would appear to be very different?

By the way, didnt McCloy suggest that at some time evidence might be found that might show that Oswald was an intelligence asset? Why do you think that he would make hat suggestion?

Tim, you can make any assumption you wish from the notes that you posted dealing with McCloy but what is a fact is the three missing items that I continue to harp on. Like so many people you wish to prove conspiracy by showing that LHO did not shoot or that there were additional shooters. As VB points out there are some 82 different shooters that conspiracy advocates have suggested but have not been able to conclusively prove any.

I feel that if there were conspirators they had to have come together before Nov. 22, 1963! And, we might assume, with some confidence, that they had the ability to hide their existance, perhaps by controlling the Warren Commission.

I will repeat once again that I have identified three points that are missing from the Commission Report. Collectively they could potentially prove a conspiracy yet each were missed (?) or overlooked by McCloy who had used similar infomation to break the Black Tom Case that made his career. Something I doubt.

If a sensitive name was on the passenger list with Oswald on the way to Helsinki...? If Oswald did not go directly to Helsinki (perhaps Hamburg first)...? Who had access to the Hosty note that said where Oswald was working before the motorcade route was decided (a rather important piece of information for the conspirators to have if they wanted to set Oswald up or use him as a shooter. This information was available but not given a Commission Exhibit Number or followed up)? The simple fact that Oswald did attempt to contact one John Hurt after the assassination and that that information never found its way into the Warren Report seems to prove that a full investigation was thwarted. But by whom?

I hold open the possibility that it could have been thwarted by McCloy, the man that John B. Hurt had worked for.

Do you find any logic in this train of thought at all?

Jim Root

Tim

Is there a question here?

Jim Root

Tim

Suggest you go to the source but this summary gives some background on the controversy that was going on at the time.

Document 19: State Department memcon, "Meeting of the Secretary's Disarmament Advisers," 3 November 1959

Source: National Archives, RG 59, decimal files 1955-1959, 600.0012/11-359

Sharp inter-agency disagreements over whether to publicly abandon the goal of a comprehensive test ban and resume nuclear testing persisted but the State Department's stance against any sudden policy changes prevailed. Instead, the Department supported proposals for technical discussions with the Soviets as a way to "sharpen the issue of underground control to the point where we could propose a limited agreement" that would include provisions for a research program on underground test verification. (Note 42) During an early November 1959 meeting with "establishment" disarmament advisers, Philip Farley reviewed the state of play. At Geneva, the U.S. had presented the Soviets with technical conclusions on underground testing that could bring Washington "face to face with the question of whether we are going ahead with a proposal for a limited treaty and either resume tests or declare our freedom of action with respect to further testing." The Soviets were unlikely to accept a limited treaty while the British were seeking a three year moratorium on underground testing. That concerned the State Department because, as Herter put it, the West would "get nothing in return." Nevertheless, he recognized the need for some give in the West's position because world opinion was suspicious of the U.S. stance. As former Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) General Gruenther explained many believed that the U.S. was pushing the difficulty of underground test verification as a "device to get out of the negotiations." Killian explained the theoretical challenge posed by the "Latter Hole" although McCloy was doubtful because "the difficulties of constructing the big hole were almost insurmountable." The advisers also discussed the UN disarmament committee, the Charles Coolidge study on disarmament, and the problem of "stability in the missile age," which concluded with Gruenther's sardonic statement that to "to proceed with disarmament we will have to increase our defense expenditures."

Days before this Nov. 3, 1959 meeting Lee Harvey Oswald had entered the Soviet Union with his knowledge of the U-2.

It was an interesting time and McCloy was in the thick of it just as he was in 1945 and where he would return in 1964.

A look at John F. Kennedy's first press conference shows the position that John J. McCloy held in this area. It is my belief that if the Paris Summit goes off Richard Nixon wins the 1960 election and JFK dies of old age. But that summit did not happen (helping JFK get elected) and McCloy's position in Arms negotiations is elevated.

Press Conference #1, January 25, 1961

President John F. Kennedy

State Department Auditorium

Washington, D. C .

6:00 p.m., EST

418 In attendance

THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon. Won't you be seated.

I have several announcements to make, first. I have a statement about the Geneva negotiations for an atomic test ban. These negotiations, as you know, are scheduled to begin early in February. They are of great importance, and we will need more time to prepare a clear American position. So we are consulting with other governments, and we are asking to have it put off until late March.

As you know, Mr. John McCloy is my principal adviser in this field, and he has organized a distinguished panel of experts, headed by Dr. James Fisk of the Bell Laboratories -- and Mr. Salinger will have a list of the names at the end of the conference -- who are going to study previous positions that we have taken in this field, and also recommend to Mr. McCloy, for my guidance, what our position would be in late March, when we hope the tests will resume.

Is it a coincidence that after McCloy is relieved as arms negotiator in 1963 a new president happens again and McCloy is once again the new Presidents principal adviser?

Jim Root

Tim

Some facts that we do know.

In Oct. of 1959 LHO went to the Soviet Union.

LHO had been a Marine radar operator at U-2 bases

LHO threatened to give up U-2 info

May 1960 a U-2 was shot down

Nov. 1959 John J. McCloy and the US arms negotiators feared the Paris Summit and the Limited Test Ban Treaty.

May 1960 the Paris Summit did not come off.

1963 Oswald makes reference to these events in his speech at Spring Hill College.

When Oswald returned to the US he feared prosecution

If LHO was upset about his possible role in the U-2 incident leading to the failure of the Paris Summit would he have a motive to go after those he felt had used him as a "patsy?"

Did, after the failed assassination attempt on Walker, those same persons (McCloy?) that had dispatched LHO to Russia know that LHO was a potential killer (as the Warren Report suggests) who would act upon his motive of having been made a "patsy?"

Jim Root

Tim

If Lee Harvey Oswald was the shooter the greatest dis-information campaign has been to make the American public believe that he was not the shooter. If that has been the intent of US Intelligence, they have been successful. If they were involved in the assassination, they were also succcessful because more that 40 years later we have not uncovered the information that proves any sort of conspiracy capable of convincing a majority of the people.

For myself I have tried to develop a motive for why Oswald would have attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker. That trail has led to everything I have posted.

The three points (coverups?) I spoke of above all come from my research and are all proveable, travel, Hosty note and Raleigh Call yet are not incorporated into the Warren Report. I continue to ask why?

Maybe we should take Oswald at his word. If he was a Patsy of US Intelligence perhaps he had a motive to shoot the President. But if this is true only those that dispatched him to Helsinki would have understood this. If Walker, as I believe is possible, met Oswald on his way to Helsinki, it would explain alot.

Would you agree that if Oswald met Walker while traveling to Helsinki the assassiantion story would appear to be very different?

By the way, didnt McCloy suggest that at some time evidence might be found that might show that Oswald was an intelligence asset? Why do you think that he would make hat suggestion?

Jim Root

Shanet asked:

John J. McCloy: Patriot or statesman?

I have no idea what that means. I had no idea the terms were exclusive.

One thing I am sure McCloy was not was an assassin.

Tim

How can you be "SURE?" McCloy was associated with John B. Hurt. McCloy was also a Warren Commissioner. The Warren Commission did not report Oswald's attempt to contact a John Hurt. I would call that a major ommission on their part, wouldn't you also Tim?

McCloy, when questioning FBI Agent James Patrick Hosty, became aware that Hosty had written a note that stated where Oswald was working 18 days before the assassination of JFK. This would be an important piece of information (to know where Oswald was working) for anyone attempting to frame or use Oswald to assassinate the President. Yet McCloy, the man who had cracked the Black Tom case, neglected to give this note a Commission Exhibit number. I would call this a major ommission on his part.

McCloy, who had used information about the travel of German agents during WWI, to break the Black Tom Case did not press the CIA to uncover exactly how Lee Harvey Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki although passenger lists were available in 1964. Why did he allow this ommission if he were truely investigating the assassination and the potential for a conspiracy?

McCloy had the athority to find out whom Oswald traveled with toward Helsinki. He failed to do so. McCloy had the ability to track the Hosty note and find out exactly who knew where Oswald was working before the assassination. He failed to do so. McCloy should have known that Oswald attempted to contact a person named John Hurt after the assassination. McCloy should also have known that Frank Rowlett, a man that McCloy worked with during WWII, was associated with John B. Hurt, a man who had provided McCloy with information during WWII. But once again McCloy failed to enter this information that he had unique knowledge of into the official record of the assassination.

I am sorry Tim but this makes me a little unsure of McCloy's involvement in, if not in the assassination itself, then the coverup of the assassination.

In any event I feel we would all be better served if we held open at least the possibility of McCloy's involvement.

Jim Root

If nothing else this admission underlines the fact that McCloy was aware of and reading the "Magic" intercepts which were translated from Japanese by none other than John B. Hurt.

John B. Hurt was a member of the Magic team whose name I came accross inpendently while researching the military career of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker then again (years later) while researching the career of General Maxwell Taylor.

It seems that John J. McCloy is also, in perhaps a very significant way, associated with this same John B. Hurt.

Coincidence?

Jim Root

Jim,

This isn't the same John Hurt of North Carolina who called Oswald or who Oswald called from Dallas jail?

BK

William

That is the big question, isn't it? If Oswald attempted to contact a former NSA employee then we have a whole new ball game.

Please allow me to speculate a little based upon some of the information that I have gathered about John B. Hurt and his association to John J. McCloy, Maxwell Taylor and Edwin Walker as well as memories of my own life experiences.

Was the number that Oswald called the number of the person that he asked for? If the person at the other end was, as has been suggested, a cut out and was asked to accept a person to person call from Lee Harvey Oswald to John Hurt, was the ball set in motion to force the elimination of Lee Harvey Oswald? John B. Hurt was a man at the middle of US Intelligence operations for 30 years. Can you imagine the concern of US Intelligence if the assassin of the President of the United States wanted to contact one of their own? This would be a serious problem for US Intelligence and would need to be covered up, dont you think? Well one thing we do know for sure, the Raleigh Call was covered up.

When I was a kid it was not unusual to go to my grandmothers house for dinner and a long distance person to person phone call. That was a different time and era but it was the late 50's early 60's. My grandmother would contact the operator and give the name of the person that she wanted to connect with. Then she would make waffles and we would enjoy dinner. At some point the operator would call and the connection would be made.

When I read the story of the Raleigh Call I drifted back to my youth and the attempts of my grandmother to make a person to person call. I thought, if the operator attempting to make the contact for Oswald finally found that the person at the other end of the number that Oswald had provided did not accept the call or said that there was no one by the name of John Hurt at that number would the operator then locate numbers for other "John Hurt's" in the same area? Would the operator write them down in anticipation of another attempt by Oswald? If no other attempt was made would the operator then toss the numbers away? Were those the numbers that were then retrieved and presented to the HSCA?

Lots of questions. What we do know is that the Warren Commission made no mention of this call. We also know that the call did occur. We also know that Frank Rowlett, a 30 year associate of John B. Hurt as well as Merideth Gardner (another close associate of John B. Hurt) were the two people assigned by the CIA (via the NSA) to investigate Lee Harvey Oswald's potential intelligence background.

Coincidence?

Jim Root

Greg

I will point out once again that the timming of Oswald's first attempt to return to the US and the start of the investigation of Edwin Walker by Overseas Weekly is at best coincidental perhaps a result of one event leading to the other.

Jim Root

Paul

And the next day (June 11, 1963) McCloy was out chief arms negotiator and W. Averell Harriman was in. On June 12, 1963 McCloy would pen a letter to Maj. General Edwin Anderson Walker (the man Lee Harvey Oswald was accused of attempting to assassinate in April of 1963).

Coincidence?

Jim Root

PS Look at that speech very carfully, remember what Jackie Kennedy said to the Soviet Ambassador after the funeral of John F. Kennedy, speculate on Johnson's millions dead statement and I begin to wonder if arms negotiations played a roll in the assassination of JFK (and for that matter in the downing of Francis Gary Powers and his U-2).

Greg

Thank you for bring this back.

I am hoping to make a post or series of posts soon that develop this topic further. Until then perhaps, for those that have read the information here, we could deal with these questions:

For what reasons might the Warren Commissioners have been derilict in persuing greater, more percise information about how Oswald traveled to Helsinki?

What may have been the reasons why the Warren Commissioners did not want passenger lists made available from the planes that Oswald used to arrive in Helsinki?

Was there a sensitive name was on one of thosee passenger lists?

Who would have had the most to lose if this information was revealed to the public?

Jim Root

John

Thank you for the Spartacus attachment.

One thing you left out about Walker's career is that between Korea and Arkansas was the First Straits of Taiwan incident. Walker was the lead US military advisor sent to Taiwan. He was selected for that position by Maxwell Taylor who would also hand pick Walker for the Arkansas assignment.

You do clearly point out that Walker took command of the 24th Infantry Div. in October of 1959......at the same time Oswald traveled to Helsinki on his way to the Soviet Union. Did Oswald get some help on his way to Helsinki? Oswald did show up at the Soviet Embassy, Itourist vouchers in hand as was suggested by Ambassador Hickerson in a classified note to the State Department sent exactly one day before Oswald arrived in Helsinki.

Is it possible that Walker could have passed information to Oswlad? With the help of Antti we have shown that it would have been possible for Oswald to have traveled to Hamburg, Germany on his way to Helsinki. Via this route he would have taken the same plane that Walker could have used to get to Augburg and Oswald would have arrived in Helsinki on the same airplane that the London to Helsinki passengers would have arrived via Stocholm. Both the Warren Commission and the HSCA are mum on how Oswlad traveled to Helsinki. Is it logical to suggest that someone else was on the same flight whose name would not only have been recognizable but would have cast a very dark. sinister shadow over the assassination story as we know it? Remember that Walker was hand picked by Taylor, his former mentor at West Point on two previous occassions for the most sensitive of jobs. I have also identified two assignments that Walker did that were of special importance to Assit. Sec. Of War John J. McCloy during WWII. Walker was well connected and was repeatedly called upon to provide assissitance for the most sensitve jobs.

If Walker was the man who provided information to Oswald would that then perhaps provide a motive for Oswald to later attempt to assassinate Walker? If Walker had provided information to a "patsy" Oswald who was unknowingly being sent to the Soviet Union to confirm or provide information about the U-2 is it unreasonable that when Oswald began a process of returning to the US Walker would have to be discredited? The timming of the Overseas Weekly article that led to Walkers resignation does in fact coincide quite well with Oswald's first attempt to return to the United States. Remember that Walker was twice selected by Maxwell Taylor for two of the most sensitive jobs Taylor faced as Chief of Staff of the Army (Taiwan and Arkansas). Is it possible that Taylor turned to his old friend Walker to provide information to Oswald? If so Oswald's "defection" would have been a very special mission. Perhaps a mission instituted by John J. McCloy who did not want the Limited Test Ban Treaty signed at the Paris Summit in 1960 (note of the meeting of arms negotiators from Nov, 1959) Is it ironique that the Paris Summit was sabotaged with the downing of the first U-2 flight since Oswald had defected? Could this have been a "mission" so important that Oswald's role could never be acknowledged?

The Warren Commission is quick to point out and goes to great lengths to do prove that Oswald was very frugal with his money. But the one flaw in this frugality is that Oswald, when traveling to Russia, went from France to England before going to Helsinki. Oswald could have gone, with less expense, to Helsinki from Paris. If Oswald would have done this his flight would have left Paris and traveled to Hamburg then to Stockholm and on to Helsinki. This would have still placed Oswald on one of the two flights that he had to have arrived on in Helsinki, only he would have arrived before the information from Ambassador Hickerson would have been available to him! Why did the FRUGAL Oswald spend extra money traveling to England before going to Helsinki? I doubt if it was to site see. By the way, according to all the accounts that I can find, John B. Hurt was in France at the time that Oswald arrived in La Harve.

I do not believe that these events are random coincidences. The same players reappear in 1963.

Thoughts?

Jim Root