Jim Root

Jim,

You wrote in this thread:

"One thing cannot be denied, Scott was familiar with the Lee Harvey Oswald and Whitney Shepardson’s friend Demitri de Mohrenschildt's brother George was perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald's closest friend in Dallas."

Are you saying Win Scott knew George or Demitri Mohrenschildt? There was no mention of either brother in Our Man in Mexico, Jeff Morley's biography of Scott. Do you have a reference?

Keep up the research efforts.

Steve

Steve

I am attempting to make a connection that my research has led too. Winn Scott was familiar with Lee Harvey Oswald, we Know this to be true. It seems that Scott can be connected to others who can also be connected to Oswald as well.

During WWII Scott was recruited into the OSS as a cryptologist. The problem with this is the OSS was not allowed access to code breaking (ULTRA) information. Having said that we do find that a very special portion of Secret Intelligence (SI) (people who were working under the cover of being a part of the OSS) did work with codes. This is where Sheparcson comes into play and where my first pieces of information come together that shows Scott associated with the SI people under Shepardson and John V. Grombach. It is Shepardson that is closely associated to both Demitri de Mohrenschildt and John J. McCloy. Scott MAY have been associated with Demitri while in London during WWII as they were both working with the same groups of people.

Having said the above this is where I will enter into some speculation. It seems that for one reason or the other Scott was left out of the loop on Oswald while he was visiting Mexico. We know this is true based upon the Jane Roman information that suggests that false information (or incomplete information at best) was purposly sent to Scott in Mexico for one reason or the other. Corrrect me if I am wrong here, Scott is then involved in the release of a picture of Oswald in Mexico that is not Oswald.

Now we have the cunnudrum....was Scott part of the plot or was he a person who could have pieced together the facts of who was behind the plot based upon his previous affiliation with SI? It appears that the information that was withheld from Scott about Oswald might have suggested to Scott that Oswald may have been an asset of SI (if my theory is correct). And the information was withheld from Scott by the Office of Richard Helms who was himself a former SI man.

Was Scott duped?

Jim Root

My reaction to your last two posts, is to say that it is rather obvious in my opinion, that the Eisenhower Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States government at some very high level.

We're almost there.

The Peace Summit was opposed by individuals in the United States and Soviet governments at very high levels -- and their Cold War masters.

I have no doubt you are correct Charles, additionally if those find this thread interesting, I strongly suugest you observe the most recent update I have made to the thread on the WARE Group.....Especially to you Jim....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13385

Thank you Robert

I read through the info on the Ware Group and thought it would be interesting to add that it appears another attorney was working around the same area as these fellows, Wilho Tikander.

My file of information that I uncovered came from a person that I speculate was the recipiant of the Raleigh Call. He also seems to be affilliated with several of the departments that the Ware Group people were associated with. This person also traveled to the Soviet Union many times throughout the course of his life begining, I believe, in the 1920's.

Interesting Group

Jim Root

Robert

You stated and asked:

"Well, as they used to say in the old day's "Capital, Capital." Very succinct and well articulated. I must admit, I was not aware that McCloy had refused to negotiate the 1963 Test Ban Treaty. Have you ever seen any internal memorandum between McCloy and JFK over the fallout over the disagreement?

A while back I initiated a thread asking who had access to the Kennedy records immediately following the assassination. The reason for my inquiry into that particular subject is because the answer to your question is NO! It is the lack of documentation between Kennedy and his lead arms negotiator anywhere, including within the Kennedy library that I find as intriguing as anything that we might speculate to have been in any correspondence between the two.

Please remember that after the funeral of JFK, Jackie Kennedy spoke with the Soviet representative and (to me at least) her statements about nuclear arms negotiations was on point to this particular line of reasoning!

McCloy does appear in the picture when the signing of this treaty occurred in the White House. But you can relate McCloy's letter to Walker and the flurry of interest in the movements of Lee Harvey Oswald by US intelligence agencies to McCloy's falling out with Kennedy. Coincidence perhaps but if all my threads are woven together the fabric shows that McCloy would have first used Oswald to sabotage the Paris Summit and would have him used again to eliminate an obstacle to the negotiation of a comprehensive nuclear treaty.

Jim Root

Peter

Thank you for the kind words.

You asked:

"Jim, could you elaborate a bit more on your view of a 'parallel organization' to the CIA?"

On June 27, 1947 a secret meeting of the House Committee on Expenditures in the Executive Departments (there was no such thing as an intelligence oversight committee at that time) heard testimony from three people. The firs was the then Director of the Central Intelligence Group, Lt. Gen. Hoyt S. Vandenberg. His remarks contained this statement:

"The clandestine field, sir, is a very complicated one, as it is very difficult...I have spent days going through the ramifications of it. Roughly, the way it works is that you have an expert in the clandestine field, or as near an expert as the United States has, and who we can hire for the money that we can pay.

They go to a certain locality and live in that locality and build up an acquaintance and they know the politics and the intrigue that is going on in that nation. They pick a man, after very careful study with records back here, from what we know in G-2 (Army intelligence) and the Navy and State and from friends, and they start him out as a nucleus. He then builds a chain of people that he knows.

Then, we have to have another man picked, in whom we have full confidence, who builds a chain alongside, who is just watching him. Then you have to keep these two people and their reports, to make sure that this man is not giving you information and receiving pay from a foreign government. Then, this man who has established this is pushed out in front here, and he then has a contact back with what we call the letter box or the place through which we got this information; and the man who originally set up the net ostensibly has no connection with any person or any department of the government. That is what we term a 'cut-out';....if he gets in trouble, we wash our hands of it.......we wash our hands of him, and we say we know nothing about him.

That is a very rough description of a very difficult business."

It has been said that, "In this nervous and rambling statement, Vandenberg gave Congress a generic description (quite likely the most down-to-earth it would ever hear) of the intelligence collection process, including the parallel role of counterespionage." Peter Grose

At this time the Central Intelligence Group had no agents in the field, no authority to engage in any "Great Game." Collection in those early days was largely the preserve of shadowy freelancers under contract.

The second man to speak on this day was John Grombach who had been assigned the task, during WWII of organizing SI (Secrete Intelligence). We still do not have a totally clear understanding of all the ramification of this organization. But all the principal people that I named above were a part of it including Richard Helms. We do know that Grombach maintained his "contract organization" into the 1950's and I have documents (those mentioned above) that show that members/former members of this organization were meeting together and information was being provided to Richard Helms from this group as late as the second half of 1959.

The third and final speaker of that day was Allen Dulles.

We also know (and I have been in correspondence with a much published historian on this subject) that Herbert Yardley became a member of Grombach's organization. This is of particular interest (NSA employee John Hurt) because Yardley had ran the predecessor organization to William Friedman's team (of which Hurt and Frank Rowlett were original members of) which then became the NSA.

For instance Winston Scott was recruited into the OSS but became SI as a cryptologist which would place him under Grombach or Whitney Shepardson. I foud Morley's description of this particular part of Scott's entrance in the world of intelligence interesting because it places him within this same parallel group at least prior to his assignment to Mexico. One thing cannot be denied, Scott was familiar with the Lee Harvey Oswald and Whitney Shepardson’s friend Demitri de Mohrenschildt's brother George was perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald's closest friend in Dallas.

We have people watching Oswald that can be associated with Grombach's parallel/contract organization. We have members of that organization meeting together prior to Oswald's entry into the Soviet Union. We can tie Oswald's willingness to betray U-2 intelligence to the Soviets to the downing of the U-2 which doomed the Paris Summit, which John J. McCloy did not want to see happen!

If we are to believe the Warren Commission report in relationship to George de Mohrenschildt's conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald following the assassination attempt on Gen. Edwin Walker.....then this same group was aware of Oswald's willingness to kill and that he possessed a weapon capable of carrying out the deed.

The CIA psychological report provided to Counsel Bellin declared that if it would have been known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker it would have been predictable to assume that he would kill the President. All that this group needed was to have the ability to divert the motorcade in such a way as to give Oswald an opportunity to accomplish the deed.

The withholding of Hosty's third note (with this perspective in mind) would allow us to use Bugliosi's own perspective that a persons willingness to withhold information that could be used against themselves is admissible as evidence of guilt (does not alone prove guilt but is evidence of guilt) in a crime.

Hosty's third note (Oswald work location) does not appear on any CIA documents list to this day!

And the final building along the motorcade route was where a man worked that was willing to kill the President.

Jim Root

Let me drop a few thoughts here and attempt to open up the discussion a little further based upon some speculation generated from research that I have done.

First: "It is now apparent that the World War III pretext for a national security cover-up was built into the fabric of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy. The plot required that Oswald be maneuvered into place in Mexico City and his activities there carefully monitored, controlled, and, if necessary, embellished and choreographed."

I am led to agree with this statement for various reasons. Three thoughts on this:

A) A picture of a man reported to be Oswald was released, whom we know was not Oswald, perhaps providing a clear message to someone (or country) that they could be associated with the assassination.

I believe that it is possible that while in Mexico City, Oswald may have been provided with a cut out phone number to call and told to make a person to person collect call to "John Hurt" in Raleigh, North Carolina if he were to get into trouble. This may have resulted in motivating US Intelligence to rally behind and create a plan to eliminate Oswald after the assassination.

C) We know that both these events (false picture that was released and Raleigh call) in fact occured. I tend to agree that only the "Big Fish" would have been capable of these "maneuvers."

Second: "The person who designed this plot had to have access to all of the information on Oswald at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had the authority to alter how information on Oswald was kept at CIA HQS. The person who designed this plot had to have access to project TUMBLEWEED, the sensitive joint agency operation against the KGB assassin, Valery Kosikov. The person who designed this plot had the authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the Cuban affairs staff (SAS) at CIA HQS. In my view, there is only one person whose hands fit into these gloves: James Jesus Angleton, Chief of CIA's Counterintelligence Staff.

I am led to disagree with the conclusion of this statement. My research points to a different person, a man that was involved in the creation of both the OSS and the CIA and the NSA. He is also a man that I can prove was associated with NSA linguist John Hurt and a man that was closely associated with Secret Intelligence (SI) head Whitney Shepardson. I have information that it was Whitney Shepardson, in June of 1959, who was meeting with and collecting information in association with Richard Helms (another former SI man) that centered on Stockhom, Sweden and Helsinki, Finland. While this collection of information was occuring Wilho Tikander, another former SI man, speculated that a very important operation was about to occur centered on Helsinki. Shepardson was a close associate of Demitri de Mohrenschildt (brother of George), John J. McCloy and John Grombach (the head of a shadowy organization known as "The Pond").

Third: "He ((Angelton) was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC."

I will be so bold as to suggest that it is my belief that a parallel organization to the CIA always existed that had "enough authority to instigate a couterintelligence operation" against any organization within or outside of the United States. While I believe that Angleton may well have been aware of the existance of the organization he was not the "Big Fish."

Forth: "Angleton and his molehunters had always held Oswald's files very close to the vest - from the time of the young Marine's defection in October 1959 and his offer to provide classified radar information to the Soviets. That offer had lit up the counterintelligence circuits in Washington, D.C. like a Christmas tree. Angleton was the only person who knew - except for perhaps one of his direct subordinates - both the Cuban and Soviet parts of Oswald's story. He was the only one in the Counterintelligence Staff with enough authority to instigate a counterintelligence operation in the SAS against the FPCC."

In my previous post on this thread I pointed out that both Angelton and Helms were involved in the mail opening sceme dirceted by the CIA. It must also be remembered that Nuclear Arms negotiator John J. McCloy was very concerned that the US would be forced into signing the Limited Test Ban Treaty at the Paris Summit (May 1960) that McCloy and others felt would be detrimental to the security of the United States. Oswald's defection to the Soviet Union and the downplaying of his 201 File, in perspective, suggests the possibility that the downing of Francis Gary Powers and the failure of the Paris Summit may have been an event that was manipulated by a very powerful force within US Intelligence. Adding to this speculation we find that Richard Helms, who would be managing Oswald's 201 File was working with Whitney Shepardson (friend of Demitri de Mohrenschildt) as he collected information about Helsinki, Finland in the later half of 1959. In the Dulles biography it is pointed out the Richard Helms maintained a "private" intelligence network. Since Helms had been part of SI (as was Shepardson) and SI had been created under the watchful eye of John J. McCloy during WWII we find an interesting network of people surround this Oswald guy.

Five months prior to the assassination of John F. Kennedy, John J. McCloy would engage in a dispute with the President and refused to negotiate the Limited Test Ban Treaty of 1963. After the death of JFK, McCloy would once again become the lead arms negotiator for the United States.

McCloy would also participate in the Warren Commission.....

1) Which did not provide information on Oswald's trip from London to Helsinki

2) Did not enter FBI Agent Hosty's third note (which provided information to US Intelligence on exactly where Lee Harvey Oswald was working prior to the planning of the motorcade route) into evidence and that note has never turned up on any CIA list of documents althouth Hosty's privious two notes went directly to the Office of Richard Helms!

3) Information on the Raleigh Call never made it into the Commission Report although the name of the person that the call was directed to matches the name of a man that McCloy quoted during discussion with President Truman dealing with the surrender of Japan and the need to use atomic weapons to end WWII. The two men assigned (indirectly) by the Warren Commission) to investigate Oswald's potential intelligence connection were in fact directly associated with NSA linguist John Hurt and on (Frank Rowlett) directly associated with John J. McCloy.

Jim Root

John

I don't think that American politics are as shallow as you seem to suggest.

If you look at the election returns carefully you will find that the results are similiar to the arguments that the framers of the Constitution had to deal with ..... rural States vs urban States. When you check....almost accross the board ... Obama won in the population centers of each State (accross the board) and McCain won in the rural areas, nationwide with a few exceptions.

I do not believe it would be safe to suggest that the rural areas of Oregon, for instance, which voted overwelmingly for McCain did so because they are filled with either white racist or Christian fundamentalists. The common bond, one that was the reason for our bi-cameral legislature is rural vs urban.

This election seems to reflect ecconomic conditions in the United States rather than racial reactions to whom was running.

Jim Root

The post is designed to show that the T-2 designation, at least in the case of a later document, went through Jane Roman in the office of Richard Helms.

Hosty seems to be clear that the event involving Oswald and the Fair Play for Cuba distribution did not take place in Dallas although the memo is passed via NY T-2 as the pretext to having the FBI begin to monitor Lee Harvey Oswald. Oswald then, when he goes to New Orleans becomes involved in the Fair Play for Cuba activities.

We have the interesting suggestion that someone, perhaps in the office of Richard Helms, was aware of an activity that Oswald would involve himself in before Oswald involved himself is actually involved in it. And, for my story, the FBI observation of Oswald neatly follows the attempted murder of General Walker.

According to Gerry Hemming, T-2 was also a designation givern to Edwin Walker in a case that Hemming was involved with in court. Hemming was able to share that the T-2 designation did not represent any one person but was used in an organizational manner. Would have to dig up that particular Hemming correspondance to see it for sure.

For me the new tie between Demetri and George DeMohrenschildt seems worth pursuing. My interest in Demetri has come about because of a hunch which led to the discovery of a cache of documents that I believe to be relevent information about people involved in the assassination story. One thing is for certain, all the people which I mentioned at the end of the above post are all tied to Richard Helms......and the use of the T-2 designation for an informant in the Oswald case can be tied to Helms as well.

Jim Root

Pleas refer to:

ATTEMPTS TO OBTAIN PERMISSION TO DECLASSIFY PORTION OF UNIDENTIFIED FBI DOCUMENT

RIF#: 104-10005-10228 (10/21/64) CIA#: 201-289248

for this post located at:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...o?docSetId=1095

During the Testimony of James Patrick Hosty we find a reference to "T-2" as a source of information of Lee Harvery Oswald.

Mr. STERN. If you will look at page 2 of the report we have marked for identification No. 829

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. The last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what information that refers to.

Mr. HOSTY. It says, "On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel.'"Mr. STERN. Did you attempt to verify that information?

Mr. HOSTY. When I got it, it was approximately 6 or 7 weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of Dallas or anywhere in Dallas with a sign around their neck saying "Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel." It appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in Dallas without having been brought to our attention. So by the time I got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it.

Mr. STERN. When you record this as something that an informant advised about on April 21, that doesn't mean he advised you or the Dallas office on April 21?

Mr. HOSTY. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI. They were advised on the 21st of April.

Mr. STERN. But the information didn't get to you until some time after?

Mr. HOSTY. In June, I believe.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the Dallas area called, "The Fair Play for Cuba Committee"?

Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name.

Mr. STERN. Had you at this time ever heard of such an organization?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. STERN. In what connection?

Mr. HOSTY. The New York office had advised all offices of the FBI to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in New York.

Mr. STERN. Had you investigated the Dallas area in that connection?

Mr. HOSTY. We had checked our sources, I had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. We were on the alert for it.

Mr. STERN. And you found what?

Mr. HOSTY. We found no evidence that there was any such organization in Dallas.

Eleven days after the assassination attempt on the life MAj. General Edwin Anderson Walker (April 10, 1963) an informant identifies Lee Harvey Oswald as having "advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel."

From CIA#: 201-289248:

"On Friday, 9 October 1964, Jane Roman (office of Richard Helms) brought in to me a thermofax reproduction of one paragraph on page 10 of an FBI report which concerned the OSWALD case and which she said the Bureau vanted to have declassified because they had declassified their entire report in preparation for passing it to the Warren Commission. The informationin that paragraph was ours and was given by us to the Bureau in Miami. Jane wanted to know if it could be declassified."

This report goes on to outline the attempts to figure out how to present this information without giving away the CIA as the provider of the information.

At the conclusion we find these words:

As I gather, CIA will not appear in this report as the FBI's source. The information is source"...NY T-2 advised the Miami office of the FBI..."

MPHartman

Compared with:

"On April 21, 1963, Dallas confidential informant T-2 advised that Lee H. Oswald of Dallas, Tex, was in contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York City at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. According to T-2, Oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'Hands Off Cuba, Viva Fidel."

Followed by:

"Mr. STERN. Did this information come from another part of the FBI?

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; it came from the New York office of the FBI.

Seems that NY T-2 was really the CIA office of Richard Helms and that they seemed to know that Lee Harvey Oswald would be doing work for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee before he actually began doing work for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. And imagine that this all took place just eleven days after Oswald had alledgedly taken a shot at Walker and 10 days after George DeMohrenschildt, brother of Demitri (who was a close associate of Whitney Shepardson, former head of SI and the founder of the Council on Foreign Relations) had guessed that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Oswald and asked, how could you miss.

I continue to speculate, just as Edwin Walker did, that people in very high places knew immediately that it had been Oswald that attempted to assassinate Walker. It is very possible that, if the above is true, these same people would have a complete psych profile on Oswald and would, according to the CIA (Bellin note) could have know that Oswald would assassinate the President if given the opportunity.

Hosty's missing third note provided this opportunity. From the Hosty testimony:

Mr. STERN. Now, tell us in detail of your interview with Mrs. Paine starting from the time you rang the doorbell.

Mr. HOSTY. All right. As I say, when I entered the house I immediately identified myself. I showed her my credentials, identified myself as a special agent of the FBI, and requested to talk to her. She invited me into the house.

Mr. STERN. Did she seemed surprised at your visit?

Mr. HOSTY. No, she didn't. She was quite friendly and invited me in, said this is the first time she had ever met an FBI agent. Very cordial As I say, it is my recollection I sat here on the couch and she sat across the room from me.

I then told her the purpose of my visit, that I was interested in locating the whereabouts of Lee Oswald.

She readily admitted that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald's two children were staying with her. She said that Lee Oswald was living somewhere in Dallas. She didn't know where. She said it was in the Oak Cliff area but she didn't have his address. I asked her if she knew where he worked. After a moment's hesitation, she told me that he worked at the Texas School Book Depository near the downtown area of Dallas. She didn't have the exact address, and it is my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found it to be 411 Elm Street.

....Mr. DULLES. Did you clear or notify the Dallas office either before or after?

Mr. HOSTY. You mean after I determined this?

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. HOSTY. Oh, yes, sir. This occurred on the 1st. This was a Friday. I returned to the Dallas office. I covered a couple of other leads on the way back. I got in shortly after 5 o'clock and all our stenos had gone home. This information has to go registered mail, and it could not go then until Monday morning.Monday morning---shall I continue?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HOSTY. On Monday morning, I made a pretext telephone call to the Texas School Book Depository, I called up and asked for the personnel department, asked if a Lee Oswald was employed there. They said yes, he was. I said what address does he show? They said 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., which I knew not to be his correct address.

I then sent a communication, airmail communication to the New Orleans office advising them--and to the headquarters of the FBI advising them--and then instructing the New Orleans office to make the Dallas office the office of origin. We were now assuming control, because he had now been verified in our division.

The procedure followed by Hosty for this note sent on November 4. 1963 was the same procedure followed for his previous two notes that made it to the office of Richard Helms via the same Jane Roman mentioned above.

A logical explanation for the above sequence, suggests that the office of Richard Helms (himself a former SI man who worked with Whitney Spepardson) decides to initiate surveilance of Lee Harvey Oswald within days of the assassination attempt on the life of General Walker. This surveilance is initiated 10 days after George DeMohrenschildt (brother of Whitney Spepardson's close associate Demitri) guesses that Oswlad had attempted to kill Walker. Knowledge of the assassination attempt on the life of Walker would provide anyone with access to an Oswald psych file with enough information to predict that Oswald would kill the President (according to a CIA report). When it is finally learned where Oswald is working these same people would have that information prior to the fianalization of the motorcade route (which would be decided in Washington). It was then decided that the last building passed before the motorcade route would enter the expressway onramp would be the same Texas School Book Depository where a man (Oswald) was working that the same people who had all the above information could have guessed would kill the President.

Jim Root

William

Thanks for the encouraging words....I to believe that the trail that I have followed is leading toward the destination.

Do want to say that I do not believe that Oswald was "ordered" to kill anyone.

I am leaning strongly toward the belief that a very small group of handlers became aware of Oswald's willingness to kill only after he attempted to assassinate Edwin Walker. My inclination toward this belief has been strongly supported, in my simple mind, by the Bellin note (CIA assessment of Oswald's psych profile) as well as by the timming of the FBI surveilence of Oswald (begining in ernest after the Walker attempt). If, as I suggest, Oswald had been inseted into the Soviet Union by US Intelligence assets, it is my belief that a complete psych profile would have been completed before that occured which would have included Oswald's life history up till his early release from the Marines. This is exactly what the Bellin note suggests, with the inclussion of the Walker incident, was all that was necessary to identify a person as being willing to assassinate Kennedy.

I do not believe that Oswald had any contact with those that allowed the assassination to occur. It is my belief that the flow of information to Oswald followed one direction only, a downward direction, while the flow of information about Oswald doings and work location followed an upward direction but came from US Intelligence reports (FBI, Hosty notes, etc).

It is Hosty's identification of Oswald's place of imployment prior to the finalization of the motorcade route that is most intriquing. While Hosty references that note in his testemony, the note is missing from the official record. This fact seems to be ignored while we know and have seen Hosty's previous two notes which are located in the files of the office of Richard Helms. This third note has never been mentioned by that same office!

In the case of McCloy....he was a man with information. His whole life is involved in his ability to collect and distribute information as it is needed. Referred to as "The Chairman" (of the establishment), he was also known as "Mr Fix It" and the "most powerful private citizen in America" by those that knew him. McCloy was considered as one of the "seven wise men" that decided and directed American policy through the Cold War......And he was in a disagreement with Kennedy prior to the assassination....not an eviable position for other from the past that had crossed McCloy.

William, et al, have you ever read the story of Pericles? As a youth McCloy idealized him and would continue to mention Pericles throughout his life. In many ways it is easy to see parallels between McCloy and Pericles.

When Ephialtes became an obstacle to the authority of Pericles, Ephialtes was murdered in 461BC. In the eyes of Pericles this was in the interest of the public good.... and usherd in the Golden Age of Greece.

Jim Root

James

I do not have a file on anyone by that name. Can you provide a context that he may appear within?

Jim Root

Once again outstanding work Antti

In May of this year I obtained a great deal of information written by members of the OSS/SI team in Stockholm. A great deal of the material was written in June of 1959 and seems to be an attempt by these former asscociates to gather information about WWII contacts within Finland that could still be operational assets that could be called upon at that time.

My question would be are there any names attached to the Finsish files that suggest who was responsible for collecting data on Oswald either as he was entering Russia or during the time of the investigation into the assassination of JFK? Any information as to the WWII exploits of any of these people who may have been monitoring the movements of Oswald or who may have been put into the position of a post assassination investigation?

Jim Root

I posted this on the John Hurt thread but belive that it also belongs here since it folds in well with McCloy's suggestion of an "agent gone haywire."

Gentelmen

The suggestion here is that this does not have to be that complicated. Grombach's former SI men included Whitney Shepardson. Shepardson was Associated with Demitri D., brother of George D, Oswalds friend in Dallas. George guessed, correctly, I believe, that Oswald had missed in his attempt at killing Walker. If George passed this info on to his brother, then former SI man Richard Helms, who had worked for Shepardson, then has the FBI begin trailing and reporting on the movements of Oswald. (I will soon make a post that draws a connection to Helms' office ordering the observation of Oswald following the assassiantion attempt on Walker).

We next have the Bellin note that says the only missing piece that the CIA needed to know that Oswald would assassinate the President was that they did not know that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker. The above suggests that a very small group may in fact have known that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker.

The office of Richard Helms, via FBI surveillence, then becomes aware of where Oswald is working prior to the motorcade route being finalized. The MC is then directed to pass one last building which just happens to have working within it a man that the CIA themselves admit would assassiante the President if given the opportunity.

Means and opportunity.....

Motive. John J. McCloy, who had resigned as Kennedy's lead arms negotiator and was unhappy with Kennedy, spoke with Dwight Eisenhower about his distain for Kennedy and that he felt that Goldwater was not the right man to become President on the Republican side. McCloy got his wish, in some ways, neither Kennedy or Goldwater but rather Johnson, who would not only appoint McCloy to the Warren Commission but would also reappoint McCloy as the lead arms negotiator for the US.

McCloy literally got everything he wanted and can be directly linked to the group above as well as to John B. Hurt a man that shares the name (at a minimum) to the name of a man that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact after the assassiantion.

But everyone is so invested in attempting to prove consiracy by proving that Oswald was not the shooter we, as conspiracy theorists, may well have done the greatest work of coverup for the conspirators. By eliminating any ligitimate investigation into why Oswald would have committed the crime (for me especially the attempted assassination of Edwin Walker) we eliminate the possibility of discovering the trail that would lead my research to the group that I have suggested above. Nobody today doubts the roll of Helms in the pre assassination trailing of Oswald or in the post assassination cover up of significant evidence in the assassination. Why not look further into the men that controlled Helms, the men mentioned above, which includes John J. McCloy.

It all fits very neatly into a tightly held, very small group of conspirators that could allow the assassiantion to happen without having to actually place an assassin in a specific location to do the deed. The assassin would have no idea that he was doing the work of conspirators that were pulling his strings . These few conspirators would have the advantage of a detailed knowledge of the mental state of the man that they would "set up" to do the job.

A very difficult and complicated crime to unravel!

This has been interesting.

Jim Root

Not currently, but would love to find the CIA copy of Hosty's third note.

Jim Root

Gentelmen

The suggestion here is that this does not have to be that complicated. Grombach's former SI men included Whitney Shepardson. Shepardson was Associated with Demitri D., brother of George D, Oswalds friend in Dallas. George guessed, correctly, I believe, that Oswald had missed in his attempt at killing Walker. If George passed this info on to his brother, then former SI man Richard Helms, who had worked for Shepardson, has the FBI begin trailing and reporting on the movements of Oswald. (I will soon make a post that draws a connection to Helms' office ordering the observation of Oswald following the assassiantion attempt on Walker).

We next have the Bellin note that says the only missing piece that the CIA needed to know that Oswald would assassinate the President was that they did not know that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker. The above suggests that a very small group may in fact have known that Oswald did attempt to assassinate Walker.

The office of Richard Helms, via FBI surveillence, then becomes aware of where Oswald is working prior to the motorcade route being finalized. The MC is then directed to pass one last building which just happens to have working within it a man that the CIA themselves admit would assassiante the President if given the opportunity.

Means and opportunity.....

Motive. John J. McCloy, who had resigned as Kennedy's lead arms negotiator and was unhappy with Kennedy, spoke with Dwight Eisenhower about his distain for Kennedy and that he felt that Goldwater was not the right man to become President on the Republican side. McCloy got his wish, in some ways, neither Kennedy or Goldwater but rather Johnson, who would not only appoint McCloy to the Warren Commission but would also reappoint McCloy as the lead arms negotiator for the US.

McCloy literally got everything he wanted and can be directly linked to the group above as well as to John B. Hurt a man that shares the name (at a minimum) to the name of a man that Lee Harvey Oswald attempted to contact after the assassiantion.

But everyone is so invested in attempting to prove consiracy by proving that Oswald was not the shooter we, as conspiracy theorists, may well have done the greatest work of coverup for the conspirators. By eliminating any ligitimate investigation into why Oswald would have committed the crime (for me especially the attempted assassination of Edwin Walker) we eliminate the possibility of discovering the trail that would lead my research to the group that I have suggested above. Nobody today doubts the roll of Helms in the pre assassination trailing of Oswald or in the post assassination cover up of significant evidence in the assassination. Why not look further into the men that controlled Helms, the men mentioned above, which includes John J. McCloy.

It all fits very neatly into a tightly held, very small group of conspirators that could allow the assassiantion to happen without having to actually place an assassin in a specific location to do the deed. The assassin would have no idea that he was doing the work of conspirators that were pulling his strings . These few conspirators would have the advantage of a detailed knowledge of the mental state of the man that they would "set up" to do the job.

A very difficult and complicated crime to unravel!

This has been interesting.

Jim Root

Robert

I am not so sure is as complicaed as we may think. George D's brother Was Dimitri who is closely associated with Whitney Shepardson. This I believe is the deeper connection. Shepardson was SI (Secret Intelligence) during WWII which is associated with John Grombach who came into the intelligence game via a paper he wrote on the use of commercial radio transmissions to send intelligence information. SI ran the Stockholm station of the OSS and SI seems to have had totall control over that station.

Grombach post war intelligence group used commercial radio businesses as a base of operations. Your post suggests that Bruton did business in Europe for Collins Radio which folds well within the Grombach's organizational operations. Your suggestion may be a double connection to the former SI operatives that were gathering information in June of 1959 about former operations in Helsinki. It would not be far fetched at all to suggest that brothers George and Dimitri maintained contact at this time and may well have been working together. It is not a difficult stretch to make a connection to the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union via this same group (Gerald Hemming had told me that the infiltration of Oswald into the Soviet Union was false tagged as an ONI operation but that it was deeper than that).

George D is the one person that seemed to guess that Oswald had shot at Walker. Did he pass this information to his brother? Shortly after this event occured Richard Helms, another of the SI, Stockholm group, begins monitoring Oswald's movements. The Bellin note (CIA forensic evaluation of Oswald's ability to have committed the assassination, 1976, suggested that if it had been know that Oswald had attempted the assassination of Walker it would have been easy to predict that Oswald would kill the President) shows that it would have been possible to know that an assassin was in place in Dallas. All that was necessary was to run the motorcade past where Oswald was.

FBI Agent Hosty's third note (that has never been acknowledged by the CIA but was alluded to in the testimony of Agent Hosty) allowed the office of Richard Helms to know exactly where Oswald was working before the final motorcade route was determined. That route had, as the final building passed, the building where a man that the CIA admits would kill the President if he had the opportunity was working.

A nearly perfect crime!

Jim Root

Robert

I do appreciate your continued research and presentation of material from this fertile field!

Will you be in Dallas this year? Any idea how some sort of seminar on this particular area of research could be set up. It might be interesting for others who may find a reason to focus upon this particular topic?

Jim Root

I have been putting together a timeline of my research over the past several months and continue to find interesting (at least to my research) points along that line.

On June 7, 1965 John J. McCloy said in an interview with Edward J. Epstein. McCCloy was asked the question, "Did you have any pet area of interest? McCloy answered, "...I thought Oswald was trained in Espionage. I saw a pattern--mail drops, micro dots, his code (?), his knowledge of sabotage, etc. I thought he might be a sleeper Soviet agent who went haywire. I think we put something of that in the Report, I did but it was toned down. the others said my evidence was not 'evidential.' I still believe it is possible some document will turn up showing Oswald may have been an agent. Not necessarily a conspiracy but an agent gone haywire."

McCloy's use of "inside information" to make himself look good for future history is an interesting trait that I believe led to J.Edgar Hoover's cold reception to having McCloy on the Warren Commission.

Some factual background concerning Hoover's concern:

From Nuclearfiles.org.....McCloy was a key player in deciding whether or not to drop the bomb. He was one of the few civilians to know about the project. During a meeting on June 18, 1945 Truman approved the invasion of mainland Japan. McCloy pushed for an alternative diplomatic approach to achieve a Japanese surrender. He (McCloy) wrote, "everyone was so intent on winning the war by military means that the introduction of political consideration was almost accidental." On the advice of President Truman McCloy took his ideas to Secretary of State james Burnes, who rejected them.

Of this meeting a Pentagon historian has advised me that "McCloy had direct access to Hurt's (John B. Hurt) 'analyses' and used such in his meetings with Truman while the greatest decisions of World War II were being decided."

John B. Hurt had decryped messages from the Japanese to the Soviets which showed that the Japanese were searching for an end to the war along the lines which McCloy would write into a proposed surrender demand that was incorporated into Article 12 of the Potsdam Proclamation. The original draft of the Proclamation included language that would have allowed Japan to keep its emperor, a condidtion that would have greatly increased the chances of Japan's acceptance of surrender. After the atomic bombings, McCloy believed for the rest of his life that "we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping bombs."

McCloy's words are closely mirrored in a declassified document that was written by John B. Hurt in 1947.

At the time of McCloy's interview with Epstein, Meridith Gardner's Memorandum for the Record, which would be completed on June 15, 1964 and dealt with Lee Harvey Oswald potential intelligence connections, was a classified document (it would be declassified in 2004). We do know that Meridith Gardner had worked closely with John B. Hurt during World War II. We do know that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to contact someone named John Hurt after the assassination. We do know that McCloy was willing to use classified information to make public statements that would show himself in a good light if future information were to be revealed.

Was McCloy aware of the "Raleigh Call" and that this information could potentially be made public at some later date?

Why was information about the "Raleigh Call" withheld from the American People?

Was McCloy aware of the fact that persons closely associated with John B. Hurt had been hand selected to do the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald's intelligence background?

Was McCloy aware of the fact that he could be associated with John B. Hurt?

Why are the records of the work that John B. Hurt did between 1945 and his retirement in 1963 still classified?

Thoughts,

Jim Root

Robert Howard wrote:

"I followed your advice, thought you might like the following information, even though this might not be the appropriate thread

Whitney Shepardson 0 hits @ NARA

Sherman Kent see

104-10307-10020 MEMO: POSSIBLE SOVIET REACTIONS TO AN ANTI-CASTRO COUP SHERMAN KENT THE DIRECTOR 10/28/1963

Willard Matthias 0 hits @ NARA

Eric "Red" Erickson 0 hits @ NARA

and a "Mr. Seaton" 24 hits under last name Seaton, in the From Field like the 1 document from Sherman Kent

Example 124-90142-10048; 23 of 24 docs are from 1966 virtually all the same date"

Robert

Just out of curiosity what brought you to Eric "Red" Erickson?

Althoiugh I do not have reason to believe Erickson to be in anyway a part of the assassination story, the people who operated him during WWII, I believe, may be part of the assassination story. Whitney Shepardson was in the line of control and aware of the activities of Eric Erickson (along with Richard Helms).

By the way I have read, recently, an account that Whitney Shepardson once considered nixing an operation (after the war) because about 12 people new of the operational plan. It was his feeling that that was to many to keep the operation controlled and secret. In the world of espionage this seems to be realistic. (I might add that that particular operation went forward. One person involved was later killed in the plane crash mentioned below)

From a post I made on January 22, 2008:

"On January 22, 1952 Patterson would die in a plane crash that was credited to "pilot error." Years later the daughter of the pilot (Captain Thomas Reid) would suggest that the plane had been sabotaged and that a severe mechanical malfunction had occured. Thomas Reid, it seems, had worked for ARAMCO and CIA agent Col. William Alfred Eddy in Saudi Arabia prior to becoming an American Airlines pilot.

Patterson's wife would invite nearly 40 people to be honorary pall bearers at the funeral that was attened by Harry Truman, Dean Acheson, George Marshall, Henry Morgenthau, Bernard Baruch, Omar Bradley, Dr. Ralph Bunche, Luciua Clay, J. Lawton Collins, Sam Rayborn, Jimmy Doolittle, Elihu Root, Jr. Ferdinand Eberstadt, Maxwell taylor, etc. etc.

Notably missing from the honorary pall bearer list is John J. MCloy, the only Asst. Sect. of War under Stimson not invited.

I have read that Patterson was slated to become the Chairman of the Counsel on Foreign Relations in 1952. Instead, that horor would go to John J. McCloy."

The interesting point here is that Patterson was killed in a plane that was piloted by a man that was a CIA agent involved in an opperation that Whitney Shepardson was involed in controlling. Shepardson, it seems, wanted McCloy as the head of the CFR (which he had created) and McCloy had been angry with Patterson. Were two birds killed with one stone?

Coincidence perhaps.

Jim Root

John Geraghty

"Oswald was, after all, ONI."

According to an email that I received in the past from Gerry Hemming, Oswald's "trip" to Russia was "tagged" ONI but was in reality controlled by a higher source.

My research seems to support that line of thought.

Let me suggest, just a suggestion, that within US Intelligence, by nature, the right hand seldom knew what the left hand was doing. Somewhere above there may well have been the marionette master, as I believe, but there may also have been people on the "outside" of the operation that would, by the nature of their job, catch wind of operations that were not being handled by their particular organization. Angleton's position required that he do exactly that!

Having made the above suggestion I will repeat my oft stated position that the Paris Summit was an event that persons responsible for the highest levels of US security did not want to see happen. It did not occur! It is not a far stretch to suggest that Oswald played a role in that failure, placing his "trip" to Russia at the top levels of National Security. This by its nature would be tightly held and I do not believe that Oswald was even aware (Angelton's Orchid Man) of the part he was playing.

To a person such as Angleton it would be important for him to "figure out" who this Oswald guy was. Perhaps nothing more sinister than that....except that if Angelton did figure it out, Angleton himself may have become a liabilty to those who handled Oswald.

By the way, at the end of WWII we find Angleton in the midst of people associated with "The Pond."

Just thoughts

Jim Root

Duke

Thank you for the quality post.

I would appreciate your comments on some of my thoughts in regards to this particular subject.

My reading of the first couple of commission meeting minutes led me to visualize a bit of a turf war. You had the Commission Chairman, Warren, who made two major proposals, Olney and a simple review of the FBI investigation. In both matters Warrens positions were brushed aside for a more in depth investigation, with subpoena power without Olney. A prime proponent within this push seemed to be, as you pointed out, John J. McCloy. By winning on both points, it seems to me, McCloy put his stamp on the manner of how the investigation would be conducted and who would be incontrol of the investigation that was done.

A deeper backround investigation into the historical connections between McCloy and Warren shows that in many ways Warren's political rise to power (Relocation of Japanese-Americans during WWII, election as Governor of California, VP candidate in 1948, deal with Eisenhower to appoint Warren to the Supreme Court) has McCloy's fingerprints all over it.

Was Warren just a figure head while others held the real power behind the Warren Commission investigation and report?

Jim Root

Jim Root Posted Yesterday, 08:35 PM

5) IF Nosenko was a Soviet plant, the timming of his first contact with US Intelligence, which coincides with Oswald re-defecting to the US, followed by Nosenko's defection after the assassination (and willingness to provide information about Oswald), could suggest that Oswald was part of a very big intelligence operation for the Soviets. IF Oswald were part of a very big intelligence operation for the Soviets and Oswald was "The Orchid Man" suggested by Angelton, then Oswald was part of a very big (perhaps even bigger than the Soviets) US Intelligence operation. If the above senario were true we should expect to find a similar reaction by US Intelligence toward Oswald's return to the US. Upon examination of the time lines we find that Edwin Anderson Walker's fall from grace coincides with Oswald's initial attempts to return to the US from the Soviet Union. Coincidence?

Jim,

We've been in touch regarding various angles of this case and other events occuring prior, the communication has been very interesting and very educational for me.

I read with great interest the connections you have made regarding numerous events and their timing. One question came to mind, it may be obvious, but it didn't click with me:

What is the significance of Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker's fall from grace coinciding with Oswald's initial attempts to return to the US?

Thanks.

Antti

Hello Antti

Good to hear from you again.

Coincidences of timing are important to my/our research. Your help in discovering the origins of the two Finn Air flights, one of which Oswald must have arrived in Helsinki on, overlaps with Walker's journey to Europe at the same time. This research proved that the two, Walker and Oswald, could have been on the same flight out of London which, if true, provides a logical reason why the CIA never provided passenger lists or an answer to the Warren Commission about how Oswald traveled from London to Helsinki.

Gerry Hemming provided an e-mail to me which confirmed that (at least in his belief) Walker was part of the team that inserted Oswald into the Soviet Union. If true the Oswald "mission" would have been of a very high priotity on "someone's" list. Since the Paris Summit was an event that, among others, John J. McCloy did not want to see happen and the downing of Francis Gary Powers and the U-2 led to the failure of that Summit....well, I believe that there is enough motive surrounding these events to suggest that there was a possible intelligence mission to scuttle the Paris Summit which would have been very closely held. Powers himself always believed that Oswald played a part in the dowing of his plane. And Ambassador John Hickerson's note that provided the exact information needed to receive a Soviet visa via the Russian Embassy in Helsinki, information that Oswald would follow to the "T," was sent on the extra travel day that Oswald used on his journey to Helsinki. I believe that it is plausible that someone, someone with a very high level of security clearence (someone like Edwin Walker who had been repeatedly called upon by the Chief of Staff of the Army, General Maxwell Taylor), was used to pass that information to Oswald. I believe that if that person were Walker we can understand why the passenger lists for Oswald's travel from London to Helsinki have never surfaced.

If the above has merit then we can consider that one thing that went wrong within the whole senario. Oswald, who was never to return to the US and would forever after be lost in the Soviet Union, never gave up his US citizenship. When Oswald first decided to return to the US, depending upon who you believe (Oswald or the CIA, Oswald mentions a first letter to the State Department that has never appeared in any information provided by the US Government), the INVESTIGATION leading to the Overseas Weekly article begins just after Oswald's first letter was received at the State Department. I have spoken with one of the people who was involved in that investigation and he confirmed that both the tip and the push for the article came from above. The reporters had no problem finding information for the story because the Pro Blue Program was so openly a part of the 24th Infantrys regular educational indoctrination.

Two points: If Walker provided information to Oswald (the Hickerson information) which allowed Oswald easy entry into the Soviet Union via the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki, then Oswald could identify Walker upon his return to the US. This could be a huge problem if it were suggested that the US played a roll in the downing of its own spy plane!!!!! A right wing nut (Walker) would provide plausible deniability to the US Government.

This series of events would also explain a motive for Oswald to want to see Walker dead for using Oswald as a "patsy" for Walker's "right wing" organization. It would also provide those watching Oswald (George D. perhaps) knowledge that Owsald could be the killer that they would use to assassinate the President (Bellin note from the CIA). This senario also would explain Walker's actions after the assassination when he quickly made contact with a German publication and tied Oswald to the attempt on his own life at a time when Walker could have easily been tied to Oswald by Oswald himself. I imagine that Walker knew that there had been a plot at the highest levels of government to assassinate the President as soon as he saw Oswald's face on television and that he believed that he could easily be tied to that plot (especially if he had provided information to Oswald to enter Russia).

The timing of Walker's fall from grace does in fact fit and helps (at least me) to understand the dynamics of the plot to assassinate President Kennedy.

Jim Root

Peter and Ron

The Nosenko case is of great interest to my research and I have written about it in several posts. To highlight (from memory) a few pieces of information may be useful for those who wish to look into this case further.

1) Nosenko first made contact with US Intelligence within days of LHO receiving his final papers to depart Russia. The timeline on this is interesting since we would later learn that Nosenko would be the KGB agent most familiar with the Oswald case. Coincidence?

2) While it is pointed out that Nosenko defected while in Geneva it is not mentioned who else was there. His defection occured while he was attending the Nuclear discussions taking place in Geneva. Present at those discussions (and missing a Warren Commission meeting to be there at the same time) was John J. McCloy. Coincidence?

3) Ron stated: "If the CIA knew good and well that Oswald was not a Soviet agent, what was so wrong about Nosenko saying that Oswald was not a Soviet agent?" If, on the other hand, the CIA (or certain people within the CIA) "knew good and well" that Oswald was a Soviet agent or had provided information to the Soviets that the CIA wanted the Soviets to have, then Nosenko's story did not hold water. Would Angleton have known about Oswald's connection to Soviet intelligence? Epstein's "The Orchid Man" tells a story, relayed to him by Angleton, of the unsuspecting insect that spreads the pollen necessary for the survival of the orchid plant species. Was Angelton talking about Oswald? Did Angleton know that Oswald had been used to spread the "pollen" to the Soviets about the vulnerabilities of the U-2? Remember that in November of 1959 John J. McCloy expressed a fear that the United States would be forced into signing a Limited Test Ban Treaty with the Soviets in May of 1960 that would not be benificial to the US. McCloy's fear was never realized because the U-2 incident occured. Was this the first time that McCloy was able to use Lee Harvey Oswald to accomplish his own goals and objectives? Or is it just a coincidence that McCloy did not want the Paris Summit to occur and that it did not occur?

4) It is the degree of importance that we COULD place on the Nosenko case while making an argument about the importance of Oswald in the strange world of espionage that I find intrigueing. Ron, I believe that you are exactly right! If Nosenko supported what the CIA believed to be true why were they not ready to give him his bonifides? If on the other side Nosenko supported what people in the top eschelon of the CIA (Angelton, Helms) knew to be false they would fight not to give him his bonifides but they would be fighting with both hands tied behind their backs. If Helms and Angelton knew that Oswald, the man accused of killing Kennedy, had in fact provided information to the Soviets that THEY had wanted Oswald to provide to the Soviets, then Oswald, the accused assassin of the President, was a US Intelligence asset. How do you explain that if you are Angelton and Helms?

5) IF Nosenko was a Soviet plant, the timming of his first contact with US Intelligence, which coincides with Oswald re-defecting to the US, followed by Nosenko's defection after the assassination (and willingness to provide information about Oswald), could suggest that Oswald was part of a very big intelligence operation for the Soviets. IF Oswald were part of a very big intelligence operation for the Soviets and Oswald was "The Orchid Man" suggested by Angelton, then Oswald was part of a very big (perhaps even bigger than the Soviets) US Intelligence operation. If the above senario were true we should expect to find a similar reaction by US Intelligence toward Oswald's return to the US. Upon examination of the time lines we find that Edwin Anderson Walker's fall from grace coincides with Oswald's initial attempts to return to the US from the Soviet Union. Coincidence?

6) IF Oswald were an asset of both US and Soviet Intelligence we can assume that Oswald's elimination after the assassination of John F. Kennedy was essential to both entities! A cover up of Oswald's association with both entities would be a must and would ensure the cooperation of both adversaries of the Cold War. In my opinion very few people would be in a position to understand the interplay of the forces that I have suggested and only those persons could have pulled off the assassination of the President of the United States and the cover up that would have followed this assassiantion senario!

7) Oswald's CIA files suggest that his file was manipulated from the beginning and has been covered up to this day. This fact, perhaps more than any other, suggests that Oswald was a very important "patsy" in the Cold War.

Jim Root

Robert

I would like to share a couple of points that I hope will help to clarify some of the information that you are pointing out.

First: There were several types and levels of codes that were being decrypted by US Intelligence both before during and after the war. Each level of code was given its own priority and attacked based upon that priority. It is also my understanding that while Friedman's group was Army centered there was an ONI group as well. As I recall each group was given priority over particular codes although both groups shared the information gained from the code breaking activities. I also believe that I recall that ONI and Friedman's group alternated days as to whose organization had priority on a particular day to command the limited resources (primarily Japanese linguists) for the translation of decrypted material.

Second: At the end of the war it was decided to keep the information about US code breaking achievments from the Japanese and that the post war Japanese government did in fact continue to use the same codes or code format that they had used throughout the war with the feeling that the codes remained secure.

Third: All of John Hurt's work after 1947 remains classified to this day although code breaking activities of many of his contemporaries has been released (We know about post 1947 work of all original members of Friedman's group except John B. Hurt , most interestingly is that of Frank Rowlett).

Fourth: It seems that the Secret Intelligence (SI) branch of OSS remained involved in their own code breaking adventure as well, this dispite the fact that President Roosevelt had declared that the OSS would not have code breaking capabilities or access to Ultra. We are just now learning that this was not the case!

This is a new area of research, in connection to the Kennedy assassination, that I believe will be very fertile (I do believe that I was the first person to identify John B. Hurt as the potential John Hurt to whom the "Raleigh Call" was intended for for whatever reason. When we start to consider that within the SI group of the OSS we can connect,For example, Winston Scott via Jimmy Murphy, as was Clifton Carter, Whitney Shepardson (who started the CFR), Richard Helms and it seems many others. It now seems probable that there was a parallel organization to the NSA and CIA that continued to operate into the 1950 (I would guess beyond) that maintained a code breaking element under the control of John Grombach (and possibly Richard Helms).

Please take a look at my "In Too Deep, Richard Helms and 'The Pond'" thread so that this discussion can stay alive.

Jim Root

Thank you for posting this. It is a long time since since I looked at John Newman's book and do not have it handy at the moment. Are the 3 Hosty notes discussed in Newman's book?

Have you gone into detail on these Hosty notes elsewhere on the Forum?

J. Raymond

In my thread "Did the 'Big Fish' know" I went into great detail about Hosty's third note. This thread was started before I had read the Newman book but my thoughts about Hosty's third note did lead me to Jefferson Morley's article about Jane Roman. I have been fortunate to have exchanged several emails with Mr. Morely over the years but the impact of Hosty's third note does not seem to resonate with him the same way that it does with me.

It was not untill I read Buliosi's book, where I found Buliosi's phrase that puts the failure of Helm's/the CIA to admit/accept the existance of the third Hosty note into context. While pointing out that Oswald failed to provide the address to the residence where the backyard photos were taken (after Oswald had been shown the backyard photos) Bugliosi points out that the withholding of information is in itself evidence of guilt! I would suggest that Helm's failure to admit that the third note, since Newman has proved that Hosty's previous two notes had made it to Helm's office, ever was a part of the CIA files on Oswald is, in Bugliosi own words, evidence of guilt on the part of Helm's.

Further, if you read the testimony of James Patrick Hosty you find that while being questioned by both John J. McCloy and Allen Dulles these two Warren Commissioners (and excellent attorneys) failed to examine the third Hosty note and failed to have it given a Commission Exhibit Number! Once again, in Bugliosi's words, the attempt to withhold evidence is in itself evidence of guilt!

This major fact (Hosty's third note) is another reason why I have began to refocus so much attention on Richard Helms. Pitted together with what I recently uncovered about Helm's association to "The Pond" and Helm's own private intelligence organization and that my recently uncovered documents suggest that in June of 1959 Helms's was gathering information about Helsinki, Finland, well it is easy to suggest that Helm's may have been more than knee deep in this pool of water!

Jim Root

Christopher

Thank you for the reply.

Add this to your thoughts: It was George De Morhrenschildt who speculated that Oswald had in fact shot at Walker....the necessary ingredient in completing what the CIA letter to David W. Belin points out....Oswald becomes an odds on choice to assassinate the President if it were known that he shot at Walker. The outline of this parellel organization creates the possibility that this group would have known as early as the middle of April that Oswald had attempted to murder Walker. It seems plausible that this would generate an interest in Oswald that was in fact generated as the facts known prove (Oswald and the CIA, Newman). This knowledge would require some action by our potential conspirators (if this game has meat) and we know factually that within a mounth of the Walker incident Oswald's movements begin being tracked and the information about Oswald's movements was collected in the office of Richard Helms (who had been/was a member of this paralled organization known as the Pond).

I hope people continue to speculate, read and provide additional thoughts here.

Jim Root

PS There is another association to the De Morhrenschildt family within Sweden where this group (The Pond) seems to have so many connections as well.