Al Carrier

1. What would the effect of a suppressor have been on the dictabelt recordings? 2. Would the reduced velocity possibly account for the shallow neck wound penetration? Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Carefully reread what I posted. It answers your questions. But feel free to go to someone outside LE as we are all ignorant and corrupt. Al

I believe he will take exception to your attacking me and what little you know in that regard. I could call him on his cellphone right now, but wouldn't want to drag him into this lowlife cop stuff for the holidays. Besides, I can handle your ass in an academic forum, if that's what this still is, any day. As for the dirty things you did, admit them yourself. Al said: "But you now feel through some private e-mails or whatever that Tosh challenges my credibility?" I know he takes notice of your beat cop blustery attitude. Do you know what time it is right now where Tosh is? Tim Carroll <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry Tim, but you are bringing a feather duster to a gunfight when you want to challenge me on these issues. Please don't consider the fact that I am ignoring all of your future posts as a weakness to debate with you, but you become increasingly ugly in your postings on a personal nature and this is not the place for it. As for Tosh, I will gladly wait for his challenges, if there are any. As for your personal attacks on me, I am sure we will meet someday at a conference and can address them man to man. Al

Al, Ron, others: I suggested a while back in a question to John Ritchson, that the use of a silencer (from positions other than the TSBD) may have slowed the projectile speed down somewhat... As I recall a silencer may reduce velocity to some extent, right? My theory was that the carano or similar was used from the TSBD, and high powered rifles with silencers (to attempt to disguise their location) were used from around the railway overpass and the Dal-Tex. Perhaps someone else has suggested this too. I don't believe anything but true assassin's weapons (high powered rifles) were used to assassinate Kennedy. Projectiles with lower velocity (due to longer distance and silencers) would help explain the shallow wound in JFK's back and the throat wound, neither of which was a through-through wound. Al, is this way off? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Antti, This has been tossed around on Lancer in the past. I totally agree with you that rifles were the weapons used in the assassination. The problem with Suppressors on rifles is that while they do quiet the intial detonation, they cannot quiet the bullet bow shockwave of a rifle caliber projectile in flight. This shockwave will still be a giveaway of shot origin if the wits are perceptive of what is going on around them. A suppressor will slow a velocity some eight to ten percent on the average and this is not enough to decrease the penetration level of the bullet on impact, unless the shot is of considerable range. What I mean by this is that the muzzle velocity has been comprimised and it will lose sustained velocity at a greater rate, but a shot within 150 yards should be effected very little. For this velocity to be compromised so greatly at impact to fail to have the penetration it had, it would have to have been disrupted rather close to the target or it would have had it's trajectory effected a great deal. Once the registered velocity is greatly comprimised, it will then begin to drop it's level of trajectory at a fast rate and it's accuracy is greatly comprimised. That is why I believe in windshield penetration to reduce the velocity to these extremes while not comprimising the trajectory. Windshield penentration will reduce the velocity in the range of 40-60%, depending on the configuration of the projectile and the angle of penetration. The only other factor in reducing penetration after impact would be the composition of the bullet. A compromised bullet that severely fragments will fail to achieve sustained velocity through the wound cavity, as the velocity is greatly compromised with the lighter the projectile (fragments of the projectile). But this would have created a tremendous amount of soft tissue damage within the throat, which was not evident at Parkland. Al

Al Carrier's position is not significantly different than the one he attributes to James Files, that of a small timer exaggerating his own importance, perhaps magnifying a few things he's heard, and proclaiming with certainty that there was no police malfeasance in Dallas and no anti-Castro involvement in the assassination. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an "idiot" and Simkin doesn't consider that abusive. Al's profanity is defended by the administrator. Unless Al Carrier was at least at the Deputy Directorate of Planning level at CIA or at a very high level in Military Intelligence, there's no way for him to know the things he claims with certainty and abusiveness. He presumes to know more than the likes of Gaeton Fonzi. He "rediculously" [sic] makes derogatory comments about historians who haven't earned the right to even talk about these matters, as he thinks he has. LE had its chance with this case in Dallas in 1963. That he still defends a 50% Bircher DPD is very telling. That he is certain that the police had no hand in Oswald's murder is "rediculous." [sic] That he thinks throwing around FrangOps33 gives him a right to control the free flow of historical examination, makes him an abusive cop walking the history beat. He's the LE side of the James Files story. That Tosh isn't around to let Al know what he really thinks is disappointing. Just check back when Tosh made a comment about there being some decent people in the CIA and Al's response. Tosh and I have discussed Al's imbalanced view of police compared with CIA: all or nothing, the province of a small (apparently somewhat illiterate) mind. Tim Carroll Historian <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay Tim Carroll Historian, What is FRANg33? Surely it must be in reach of a true historian and researcher as yourself? So I should know less about these issues than an investigative reporter like Gaeton Fonzi? In what capacity did he serve in the field in such type operations? So you believe Tosh will discredit me? Then how do I know about covert operations in Central America that is not available to the researcher, and Tosh can confirm their existance? I would be more than happy to throw around a few dates, places and operations with Tosh on the forum and have him debate me on their validity. I believe it was Tosh who asked me if I instructed at SOA as I looked familiar to him there. It was also an exchange between Tosh and I about a meeting we may have had with John and Joe in Coasta Rica over twenty years ago. Strange how I know or am familiar with the same persons Tosh is, but they are not in the history books or anyone to be researched under these operational areas. But you now feel through some private e-mails or whatever that Tosh challenges my credibility? Let's bring it to open forum then. I will gladly discuss with you the performance of the DPD on open forum and welcome you to list point by point how they were involved in the Kennedy Assassination. You can bring in your paranoia on police corruption and I will use my background in LE. Let's let the chips fall! Al

Obviously Al doesn't follow rule "v", since anyone who believes there are dirty cops is labeled "rediculous." He also doesn't follow the rule of logic, given his Catch-22 argument that no one who confesses, such as Tosh, could be genuine, and given the projection of his own performance in Latin America for which he certainly would never confess. He doesn't think anyone else should be allowed to comment, but when I posted new information about the massacre of dozens of police at Caro Quintero's ranch near Vera Cruz and asked for him to comment, he would not. So the Catch-22: as we search for the truth, he shuts down historians who didn't engage in murderous acts themselves in Latin America or have records of ongoing police abuse in America. Anyone who was there and admits it, must not have actually been there. On Lancer, Al gave an ultimatum for certain people to be kicked off the forum, including the one he referred to on this forum as a "Nazi" (attacks don't get more personal than that; and he has made that statement on this forum). When not a single person spoke in support of him, he was silenced. That's history. Now, as Wim cited, people who don't kneel down before Al's murderous expertise are labeled "fantasy chasers," which is not considered personal attack here. He uses profanity and that's acceptable language here. I don't sit back for police abuse and brutality, on the streets or on-line. That's not anti-establishment; that's pro-freedom. Tim Carroll <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, On how many threads are you going to post this? Have you gave up on investigating the Kennedy Assassination and now turned to attacking me on a full time basis. Thought of getting other hobbies? If I recall correctly, the first run-in we had was on Lancer when I posted photographs of Dick Chaney's visit to my city which included some protesters that held banners and signs that were vulger. I didn't show the contents of these signs but mentioned how offensive they were and that they were out of line, even with the likes of a criminal like Chaney. You jumped all over me screaming free speech and could care less about my or any other children being exposed to this vulgarity in the signs or what they were chanting and basically told me to keep my kids off the public street where the protestors were if I didn't want them to see it. Now there is a true American who cares about people being offended! Now you jump on me for the language I used here? Al

Tim Carroll at Marathon Key last month: Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, If this was your attempt to show that my posting was rediculous by showing you snorkling at Marathon Key some 20+ years later, acknowlege that and I will address it. I don't want to misunderstand your comic face and offend anyone with my reply. Or maybe you can ask Tosh what Marathon Station refers to in the late seventies to early eighties. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Al, I meant nothing insulting or personal at all; and I was in regular contact with Tosh when I was there, staying across from the airport. Chubby there has his own weekly TV show regarding mosquito abatement. Should I be sorry that you find my face to be "comic?" That's scuba diving, not snorkeling. Sheese! Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Sorry for not studying your vacation photo more closely to see that you were wearing scuba gear. That does show my incompetence to post here. How should I interpret your post that has a direct quote from me referring to Marathon and then your vacation picks along with a rolling eyes face? Can you enlighten us then on what Marathon Station was in the late seventies through early eighties and where the actual sniper and survival training took place in conjunction with Marathon Station? If not, then maybe you should research before you put up your rolling eyes. Al

Al, Your profession precludes any discussion about the possible involvement of the DPD without you getting personal? And John pointed what out? Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No Tim, my tenure in LE allows me to explain the incompetent performance of the DPD and give explanation as to why they failed to perform their basic duties. Ask John what I am referring to what he pointed out to me by personal message and what my reply was. Al

Hey Ron. Bill Miller, who I have argued with both on public forum and through IM continuously on the Altgens 6 issue, have agreed to disagree on it. Ihave a tremendous amount of respect for Bill Miller as a person and researcher, but we do not agree on everything. There were witnesses at Parkland, including a medical intern later turned doctor and a police officer (Sgt. Ellis) who saw a through and through hole in the windshield in the Parkland lot. There is also a Ford Motor Company employee who saw this windshield with the through and through bullet hole in it. Doug Weldon interviewed him before his death. The problem I have with both head and neck wound impact from the north knoll is wound trajectory. With the left side of the president's head and neck remaining intact and lack of resistance penetration with the neck wound, I cannot see how it could have occurred. I see no logical reason for using a pistol for this incident as it would take away accuracy and wound capability that a rifle would provide. Now a pistol caliber shoulder weapon would increase the accuracy of the shot, but it still would compromise the internal wound ballistics. Al

Tim Carroll at Marathon Key last month: Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, If this was your attempt to show that my posting was rediculous by showing you snorkling at Marathon Key some 20+ years later, acknowlege that and I will address it. I don't want to misunderstand your comic face and offend anyone with my reply. Or maybe you can ask Tosh what Marathon Station refers to in the late seventies to early eighties. Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Great reply Tim! Care to address any of the content or are you simply taking your anti-establishment stance? Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Al, Noting that you were offtopic is addressing your content. You began your own post by noting that it was offtopic. Your post interrupted a serious discussion about Pat's misassertions regarding Bob Groden, about whom I thought we shared a mutual respect. It was you who didn't respond to the content or the context. Additionally, noting that you're now resorting to obscenity on this forum, to which I personally and respectfully invited you on the basis of its decency after you'd rendered yourself unwelcome elsewhere, is on topic. Any reasonable reading of my posts demonstrates that I have been very respectful toward you, welcoming you here with the inclusion of the following photo: When you were being overly dismissive of the history of CIA hired Mafia assassins, a unique time in our history when the lines between government and underworld were blurred and possibly backfired, I finally weighed in to support Ron Ecker's reasonable debating points. I have not resorted to name-calling or obscenity, as you have. The position I raised regarding the possible involvement of anti-Castro and/or Mafia elements, without over-certainty, is one held by Tosh Plumlee, Larry Hancock, Wim Dankbaar, Ron Ecker, Shanet Clark, James Richards, Dawn Meredith and many others. So why single me out, when I have made it abundantly and repeatedly clear that I respect the ballistics expertise you bring to the discussion, and have refrained from any debate with you to avoid such misbehavior on your part? As for your certainty about the latino mindset, did you read my post this past week, in response to Gary Webb's death, about the dozens of Mexican police drawn and quartered at Caro Quintero's ranch in Vera Cruz? Was I wrong about that? Have you read my seminars or the responses? Is it just that you can't allow anyone to question the work of the DPD? When I mentioned the overwhelming police response to a non-paying movie-goer in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, you retorted about how would I expect police to respond to the murder of a family member as compared with that of a "stranger," even when that "stranger" was the President of the United States. Your offtopic post was misplaced, your singling me out for considering a position that so many others hold with far more certainty than I was misplaced and inappropriate, and your use of name-calling and obscenity is just plain dishonorable and you should apologize. Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First of all Tim, I was off-topic to the extent that I brought out another issue to show my support of Bob Groden. If you would watch the video I referred to, you would see that the "experts" used their title to try and belittle Groden and they did so by providing false information on ballistic issues. I owe you no apology. This all started because you came looking for a fight and John pointed that out to me when all of this started. Our last go-round was on Lancer and it started over your attack on me and my profession and I didn't stand for it then and I will not take anything off you now. I have been through too much in my life to be bullied by anyone. If I am out of line here and offending people, then John is welcome to remove me from this forum. I was not unwelcome at Lancer. I asked for Vernon and the great Nazi hunter to be removed from Lancer or I would go. They refused to remove them so I left. I was then asked to return and told that they had been suspended from the Lancer Forum. I chose not to return as I knew they would be back, and lo and behold, I find that Vernon is back on Lancer. You use Tosh as one who disagrees with me. If I have spoken incorrectly on anything I have posted, then let Tosh come forward and show where I am wrong. He can speak for himself. You and others that are offended by me confuse ego and background. I am trying to show why I believe in what I do and you challenge me with numbers who disagree with me. Al

Ron, I dismiss UM and DCM as accomplices in this shooting for several reasons. The main one being that they would not be needed to signal to the shooters that the shots had not yet eliminated the target. The shooters would be well aware of that by continually tracking their target. They would only be visible to the spotters, if there were spotters assigned to the shooters, and they would have enough on their plate without having to check on what DCM and UM was signalling. Secondly, their position would be too obvious to all around them, and too close of proximety to the shots. Considering the varying LOS depending upon when the shots rang out could put them in the line of fire and deflections and riccochets would put them in danger as well, considering we are dealing with rifle caliber projectiles. THis is the same case I use to dismiss Greer and Kellerman as being part of it. Lastly, their actions after the incident shows that they did not utilize the confusion and panic in the plaza to make their escape. Too arrogant of them to sit down on the curb prior to leaving. The flechette issue from the umbrella holds no water IMO. Accuracy on this would be extremely poor, the umbrella is never seen pointed at the limo and what purpose would it serve. To do something so dramatic at such a close range, they would have fired a fatal wound with something more accurate. As to your question on what happened to the bullet that entered JFK's throat? Once the body was taken from Dallas, the chain of custody is under suspicion and the findings are out the window. We hear of and see a massive evulsive wound in the back of the skull and when it gets to Bethesda, it is no longer there. The evidence of other wounds are now compromised. To believe a rifle caliber projectile struck the president's throat and did as little damage as the Parkland doctors described needs a hard look. It would had to have been compromised in velocity. This would had to have occurred close to the impact area, as a distant deflection or obstruction that would compromise the velocity would have caused the projectile to have missed it's mark. That is why I have to believe in windshield penetration and have posted on how this will compromise a projectile on several Lancer threads. Al

"Reality is so simply sometimes?" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay Tim, you win, I'm an idiot and my post is null and void because of a typo. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No Al, it's "null and void" because it lacks any content except a condescending attitude. Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Then you and your fantasy chasers can continue to chase the fantasies because you refuse to accept input from anyone who has any background to provide, if it differs from what you have determined to be the truth. Your version of content is based on what part of your background to judge it? Keep comparing photos in the plaza to anyone who breathed in '63 that might have been remotely connected to government operations. Keep running down leads on who had it in for Kennedy and placing them in the mix of the assassins and conspirators. Your list should reach somewhere in the range of 2,000 plus this year. Congradulations, you have become a part of the problem! And I thought this was different from the idiots on Lancer! Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Al, I have not treated you disrespectfully. I have not used words like "idiot" or "fantasy chasers," and I don't think I've "become a part of the problem" for asking questions about QJ/WIN, ZR/RIFLE, AM/LASH or the general purpose underlying JM/WAVE-sponsored skills training and operations. If you're going to attack me on this basis, why not dare to name the others that fall into the same category, such as Ron Ecker, Larry Hancock, James Richards, etc., etc? Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You like many others have made your mind up and have challenged anything that contradicts your beliefs with any bone that is thrown at you? Doesn't the release of such rediculous info raise question in your anti-establishment mindset? No, of course not, because you are on a roll with the mafia derelicts and anti-Castro hate mongers who must have been behind this plan that has lasted over forty years without proof of conspiracy. I cannot argue with illogic. Here is to the next forty years of short mindedness... Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Great reply Tim! Care to address any of the content or are you simply taking your anti-establishment stance? Al

"Reality is so simply sometimes?" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay Tim, you win, I'm an idiot and my post is null and void because of a typo. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No Al, it's "null and void" because it lacks any content except a condescending attitude. Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Then you and your fantasy chasers can continue to chase the fantasies because you refuse to accept input from anyone who has any background to provide, if it differs from what you have determined to be the truth. Your version of content is based on what part of your background to judge it? Keep comparing photos in the plaza to anyone who breathed in '63 that might have been remotely connected to government operations. Keep running down leads on who had it in for Kennedy and placing them in the mix of the assassins and conspirators. Your list should reach somewhere in the range of 2,000 plus this year. Congradulations, you have become a part of the problem! And I thought this was different from the idiots on Lancer! Al

"Reality is so simply sometimes?" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Okay Tim, you win, I'm an idiot and my post is null and void because of a typo. Al

It seems that Al thinks that all questionable police misconduct can be explained as innocent mistakes or accidents and all complex operations are military, but that ignores the mindset that begat the School of the Americas in the first place. Was QJ/WIN American? Did ZR/RIFLE use military personnel? Is there some assumption that indigenous or underworld operatives can't be trained in such operations as well as domestic-born people? As for the flipping out of such low-lifes, how many special ops folks have gone nutty? Providing a high degree of training to such deniable operatives was the whole point of JM/WAVE and Executive Action. And now you are an expert in the School of the Americas? Have you checked the published class rosters and noticed that all are foreigners? So I and Tosh are making the issues of SOA up on the American attendees and true operational training and procedures? Assassination researchers who love to jump into fantasyland on covert ops and use boogeymen like the mob as part of the schemes cannot fathom reality of how it really works. QJ/WIN IMO was a DEA Undercover Agent in Europe. ZR/RIFLE was ran by a drunken fantasy monger who couldn't produce a productive operation in three years, but yet so many believe he achieved this great task of assassinating a president and getting away with it. “(The manual) [COM?] referred to both true operational and false operational cover procedures. Elements of indigenous personnel were to be utilized for access to targets and for blame of operational success and failure as a hands-on participant, when they were not. Organized crime would be utilized for financing and money laundering of such operations and could also be utilized to blame for such operations.” Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Sorry you cannot follow this, but reality is so simply sometimes, that it cannot be reached. Al

Slightly Off-Topic, but dealing with the competency, sincerity and drive of Robert Groden. I am on vacation for the remainder of the year, other than teaching classes here and there, and had some downtime today after completing my daily honey-do list, that my wife sets out for me. I sat down and watched the KGB Files tape narrated by Roger Moore, for the twentieth time since I purchased it. I again had to laugh and at the same time feel for the frustration Bob Groden showed in dealing with the ballistic experts when reconstructing the crime using lasers. The experts had their minds made up that the autopsy photos were genuine and that the Parkland Doctors and other wits were simply mistaken about the evulsion in the occupital region of the head (plus their misunderstanding of bloodspatter analysis). When Groden challenged them on the reaction of the President being thrust back upon head impact, they basically laughed at him and told him that that was James Bond movie mantality and that it does not happen. Then then spoke of hanging a body from a hook (or something similar) and firing a 12 gauge slug (then added buckshot which is not a slug) and the body does not move. DUH! We are talking about two different wound ballistics issues here. A freeswing solid mass of a body receiving such energy will likely go forward into it to receive it. A sitting body where the center of weight is rested and the impact is to the head which sits atop a hinged neck is another animal all together and they definately should know this. Both these ballistic experts and the Soviet experts speak of the initial forward movement of the head and spray to show that the impact was from behind. This is total bullxxxx! The head was forward and facing downward and impact high on the head pushed the head down, not forward, until it met resistance and then slammed it back. We are talking 2000+fps in a projectile of 150+gr and the movement forward (downward) coming in at roughly 1/9th of a second before the rearward violent thrust (2 frames of Zapruder). Bob must have developed some ulcers filming that one. Al

IMO it was known before the break of dawn that day, indeed before the whole covert operation was set into motion, that there would be no "true immediate investigation." The absence of such an investigation was built into the conspiracy. Ron, I find it extremely hard to believe that those who set up the assassination was also the ones who covered it up. It would only take a handful of individuals to set up the assassination. On a Lancer thread, I spoke of the levels of complicency in staging such an operation. The higher powers set the wheels in motion by contacting a field agent, who would in turn make a decision on when and where. This agent would then recruit the military personnel who he or she would have in reach and give them the assignment. The shooting team would then go to the location (city), study the intelligence as far as route, etc, make the plans for the ambush and also a back-up plan if possible. I truely believe that the cover-up was ready for wherever the hit was to take place, not because they were part of it, but they had intel that it was going to happen and that they could not stop it and did not want it out that the assassination was formed inside the government, which would be embarrassing to say the least, and expose a great deal of intelligence and shortcomings within the government. Miami and Chicago is an example of how it was avoided on a case by case basis until intel let them down in Dallas. There is no possible way for the conspirators or those involved in the aftermath coverup to prevent an immediate investigation. With all of the LE agencies involved and all of the personnel from those agencies on-hand in the Plaza, they could not prevent the wrong people from being stopped, shaken down or worse if one of the radical anti-castro cubans was found armed. Again your question assumes the possibility of a "true immediate investigation." There was never going to be one. As you know, Braden was released soon after his arrest to go back to the Cabana, from whence his cohort Morgan Brown had already skipped town. The key here is that Braden was detained and info obtained from him. The Dallas PD and Sheriff's Office was not part of the conspiracy, but were simply negligent in not shutting down the plaza and detaining all of the wits. God knows there was enough to secure it, instead they ran around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to work the damned scene. Opening up traffic to the plaza and allowing onlookers to leave is rediculous, but not criminal. Just incompetent. As for Braden remaining silent in any case, I believe mobsters are pretty good at that, when they know that talking can get you five or six bullets in the mouth (a la Sam Giancana) or dismembered and stuffed in an oil drum (a la Johnny Roselli). Is that why Files is confessing to every major crime of the twentieth century, why Harrelson in a heroin induced state confessed to the assassination, why every mafia punk over the twenty-five year period after the assassination that was looking at serious time squeeled like a pig and wore wires and aided in inserting undercover Feds into the mob until the major crime families were taken down? Some code of silence. With regard to DCM, what is suspicious about him is not merely that he was a Latino, but his behavior, not just in whatever he was doing with his hand raised at the curbside within a few feet of JFK, but in then sitting calmly down on the curb, beside another suspicious individual and with chaos all around them, as if taking a work break. If you were there to signal the shooters, would you sit down at the curb after it was over, or would you take advantage of the confusion following the shooting to get out? The same goes for Braden. He was arrested not for his organized-crime background, which no one could know just by looking at him, but because of suspicious behavior. (Why was he even arrested? Because a couple of honest Dallas cops were doing their job, like many of them did that weekend, all for nothing.) I guess I don't see dishonesty in the others, simply incompetence and getting over excited and failing to do their basic duties. Fair enough, but it looks like I read too much into a passage in your thread “How Intelligence and Military Interact” about the manual for covert operations in Central America and how this might relate to Dealey Plaza: “(The manual) referred to both true operational and false operational cover procedures. Elements of indigenous personnel were to be utilized for access to targets and for blame of operational success and failure as a hands-on participant, when they were not. Organized crime would be utilized for financing and money laundering of such operations and could also be utilized to blame for such operations.” In viewing Dallas as an intelligence/military covert operation, it seemed obvious to me in reading the above passage that the term “indigenous personnel” could be substituted with Oswald, Alpha 66, Interpen, DPD, Ruby, or fill in the blank, and that the term “organized crime” is self-explanatory, with respect to patsies or false sponsors to be “utilized to blame” if need be. Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ron, you are looking at two totally seperate types of operations. What the COM was referring to is foreign operations where indiginous personnel were required to insert and navigate military operators where they should not be. The same goes for funding as these operations, such as Nicaragua got very expensive (especially with all the pocket lining done) and their were no financial accounts for it. How expensive would it be to send these teams into DP and carry this out. How tough would it be for a military sniper team to go into Dallas without assistance, scout and carry out this operation? Al

Ron, As far as DCM goes, we are talking Dallas, TX. Then and today, you cannot walk a half a block without crossing paths with a Latino. If you look closely at the plaza prior to and the aftermath, the employee rosters of those in and around DP, you would find ample Latino's. To label DCM as an Anti-Castro Cuban is a stretch to say the least. Even if he was, there was no shortage of them in Dallas in '63. That is a long shot from being placed there. If he would have been and a true immediate investigation had taken place, would his presence and backtracking of connections been a compromise to the operation? Braden was a second rate organized crime gopher to say the least. His presence being associated to the assassination is another stretch. Would you trust the likes of Braden to be sent there to confuse the issues and expect him to remain silent if grilled? The key to the success of this operation was to create a diversion of attention at the time of the shots and this was successfully done, and allowed the shooters to escape the arena of operation. To draw attention in the aftermath to the supposed Oswald window would be motivation for a Communist Conspiracy, with the latter discovery of multiple shot origins. There would be no need for others present within the confines of the plaza to aid in this and adding additional persons who could be detained and investigated would only complicate the deniability of the operation. Al

__________________________ Diddo, we all owe a debt of gratitude to Tosh and Al. Thanks for your imput and insights. Dawn <{POST_SNAPBACK}> John and Dawn, Thank you for the kind words. John, this is why I have never been able to accept the possibility of Anti-Castro Cubans who went onto other operations and mafia figures to have been involved in the assassination in DP. Charles Harrelson, the drug addicted second-rate hit man even said it when interviewed from prison on TMWKK. He stated that if he would have been involved in it, he would have been killed. Even this boob understood that. Then to believe that planners would be present to watch the shooting go down is as rediculous. Deniability at the planning level and removing the players is the only way to keep this issue unsolved as long as it has been. I cannot accept that this would be entrusted to emotionally motivated exiles and known organized crime figures. How long would that remain a secret? Al

I have to pull out my fingernails to say YES and I have to pull out my toenails to say NO. As you know we have unwritten rules and a code of conduct. As I said to the little lady on the bar stool, next to me. "Hell, I can't Fart and chew gum at the same time anymore". "What did you do in the Big WAR Uncle? Come here little girl.., sit on my lap and I'll tell ya. Its time for bed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tosh, Well said. I didn't mean for you to be forthcomming here. And I appreciate it that you were not. Sleep does not come easy when reliving this, I simply asked for a yes or no. But it is not always that black and white when dealing with such a history. Al

Tosh, Although we compliment each others content on these posts, I get the feeling you are still proceeding cautiously with me to determine just who I was and my credibility. You surely are now aware of me by now. A simple yes or no will suffice. Al

Al; I am glad to see that someone has came to the plate and pointed out a few important matters concerning "Black Operations" (if I may use an overworked phrase) The specifics you mentioned are foundations which must be understood if one is to follow the lineage of field personal and why these "Cells" of specialized operatives are trained in the manner that they are. When I attended these "familiarization" programs or (Covert Action Training Programs, CATP) that the manual was written from, I found Cubans, Iran, Tibet, and ? V.C. in those training classes, as well as personal from Angola. Ed P Wilson, Tom Klines, Eugene Toffaya (sp) and others, of which I am sure you know, were engaged in the art of sabotage and sniper tactical training to various small groups within these cells. Others were assigned to "Illusionary Warfare Tactics", (IWT) LHO attended one of these type classes in 1959 at Nags Head NC before going over to Japan with the ONI. Some of these military specialized operatives with their secret MOS's of the 1979-81 era, were from Iran and Afghan and Central America, and Egypt. Two Latin Americans from Eden Pastroa's small group, before Pastroa took command as Captain Zero, were engaged in the SOA Benning sniper school as well as a few of the "Mosquito Indians" of northern Nicaragua.., This was one of the first test units formed. The training book was being written at that time. This type of training was being conducted very hush-hush and did not follow any of the 'OLD' manuals that had previously been written. (1953-54) This 'testing' school threw away all the old manual material and started all over. In some ways this was the start of training a secret army to operate independent specialized CIA projects off the books. Should we bring it up another notch? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tosh, We probably shouldn't, but what the hell! Maybe it is time! You opened the door when you brought out Tofoya so it is too late to close it. A man who had a great deal of control of SOA in that period and a strong backer of the likes of Sandavol-Alarcon'. While the SOA attendees were primarily Central and South Americans with fifteen to twenty percent being from the middle east/north Africa and no more than ten percent from the US, the instructors were generally U.S. veterans of Iranian and El Salvadorian staging ops on the planning side and mostly U.S. Veterans of the SE Asia operational period of Phoenix and the likes there and Columbian field operations, on the tactical side. I believe you are familiar with the type of class association I am referring to and why it was made up of this type of U.S. Soldier. Throughout various other courses, they would be intermingled with select foreign servicemen, but the same group of roughly twenty-five American Servicemen would be present throughout the majority of the neccessary courses. These men would later be deployed seperately and generally individually only to work on a limited basis with others of the same level but with different specialties in-country, and travel seperately from them. The term "reliance on others is not an acceptable risk" is gospel in this type of operation. When the operation ran it's course, the Black Widow policy would show it's ugly head often and would be utilized to maintain security of the operation. "Jack and Jill never made it home". The COM for Central America was hardly a training manual and could not even be considered a policy manual as it was no more than a guideline for acceptable and reliable procedures of operation. It's true publishing date I believe was 1981 April through the DD31. I have quoted from it on Lancer and showed how it was in direct conflict of what Prouty produced, although it followed the same language, but came out with the opposite meaning. The US operational sniper school of this period was ran out of Marathon for final testing with basic and advance instruction leading to this at Bragg and Benning. Have I went too far? Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Al: Your in the ball park and batting 400. Jack and Jill went up the hill.. they each had a dollar and a quarter... Jill came down with two and a half... And They Shot Her. It was aslow day in the jungles. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tosh, I am batting 1000. Due to a rain delay, it became home field advantage and Jack and Jill's guardian ANGEL eliminated them both before taking it on the road. They met their demise by distant detonation of their own charges. Al

John: I'll go on point on this one and give you my OPINION. (in spite of the potential Flak) You did the right thing. Warbell was on the decline and because of his background a lot of wana-bees jumped in and was trying to use these names as their shields for personal whatever. Number one. They approached you all wrong. You watch before you jump. Point Two: You never recruite by giving the potential target the background of where you come from. Point Three: If you were being recruted for a secret sanctioned operation then you would not know it until you had already been exposed to one or two cut-out ops. You would then be evaluated and a series of test would be given to you by others. If all went well, then someone would perhaps talk with you. It takes time to get into a top secret sanctioned MI operation, or for that matter a secret CIA 'cut out' Ops. I think you did the right thing. Tosh <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tosh, I agree with you 100%. There were no shortages of SOF types of this period and before that drew radicals "with a cause". These were the dangerous types that were as inefective as they were problamatic. They often get confused with those on the outside as being mercs who contract, but in reality are cause driven and generally hands-off for official operational programs. That has been my opinion. And that is how I have a difficult time accepting Anti-Castro Cuban fanatical groups, even those supported by the intelligence community, as being operational in the JFK Assassination. Al

Al; I am glad to see that someone has came to the plate and pointed out a few important matters concerning "Black Operations" (if I may use an overworked phrase) The specifics you mentioned are foundations which must be understood if one is to follow the lineage of field personal and why these "Cells" of specialized operatives are trained in the manner that they are. When I attended these "familiarization" programs or (Covert Action Training Programs, CATP) that the manual was written from, I found Cubans, Iran, Tibet, and ? V.C. in those training classes, as well as personal from Angola. Ed P Wilson, Tom Klines, Eugene Toffaya (sp) and others, of which I am sure you know, were engaged in the art of sabotage and sniper tactical training to various small groups within these cells. Others were assigned to "Illusionary Warfare Tactics", (IWT) LHO attended one of these type classes in 1959 at Nags Head NC before going over to Japan with the ONI. Some of these military specialized operatives with their secret MOS's of the 1979-81 era, were from Iran and Afghan and Central America, and Egypt. Two Latin Americans from Eden Pastroa's small group, before Pastroa took command as Captain Zero, were engaged in the SOA Benning sniper school as well as a few of the "Mosquito Indians" of northern Nicaragua.., This was one of the first test units formed. The training book was being written at that time. This type of training was being conducted very hush-hush and did not follow any of the 'OLD' manuals that had previously been written. (1953-54) This 'testing' school threw away all the old manual material and started all over. In some ways this was the start of training a secret army to operate independent specialized CIA projects off the books. Should we bring it up another notch? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tosh, We probably shouldn't, but what the hell! Maybe it is time! You opened the door when you brought out Tofoya so it is too late to close it. A man who had a great deal of control of SOA in that period and a strong backer of the likes of Sandavol-Alarcon'. While the SOA attendees were primarily Central and South Americans with fifteen to twenty percent being from the middle east/north Africa and no more than ten percent from the US, the instructors were generally U.S. veterans of Iranian and El Salvadorian staging ops on the planning side and mostly U.S. Veterans of the SE Asia operational period of Phoenix and the likes there and Columbian field operations, on the tactical side. I believe you are familiar with the type of class association I am referring to and why it was made up of this type of U.S. Soldier. Throughout various other courses, they would be intermingled with select foreign servicemen, but the same group of roughly twenty-five American Servicemen would be present throughout the majority of the neccessary courses. These men would later be deployed seperately and generally individually only to work on a limited basis with others of the same level but with different specialties in-country, and travel seperately from them. The term "reliance on others is not an acceptable risk" is gospel in this type of operation. When the operation ran it's course, the Black Widow policy would show it's ugly head often and would be utilized to maintain security of the operation. "Jack and Jill never made it home". The COM for Central America was hardly a training manual and could not even be considered a policy manual as it was no more than a guideline for acceptable and reliable procedures of operation. It's true publishing date I believe was 1981 April through the DD31. I have quoted from it on Lancer and showed how it was in direct conflict of what Prouty produced, although it followed the same language, but came out with the opposite meaning. The US operational sniper school of this period was ran out of Marathon for final testing with basic and advance instruction leading to this at Bragg and Benning. Have I went too far? Al