Al Carrier

Hello Shanet. Been awhile since we exchanged here. Again, I am not saying the fifty did play a part in DP and would have to say it did not. See my last reply to Antti regarding this. I have issues with the use of a .22 being used in the assassination sequence. While it can be a lethal round, it would be on the low end percentage in comparison to a rifle round in the ranges of a .223 to 300 win mag and all in between. I don't believe a shot would be fired for any purpose, other than for a high probability elimination of the target. The one exception may have been the 6.5mm MC fired from the TSBD that would draw attention to that location and away from the forward shot origin(s). If we are to accept the photos taken of the 6th floor of the TSBD, than we have to accept the fact that it was a 6.5mm MC rifle found there, as that is what was in the photos both on the floor and on the street in front of the TSBD after it was carried out. Also, the fifty caliber rifle bullet was designed in the mid-fifties, as early as I can tell and it may have been earlier. This was a project of Remington. There have been many fifty caliber rifles over the years besides the Browning. The most popular today is the Barrett. In the early eighties, a popular off-shoot .50 sniper rifle for covert ops was the Martin' kit rifle produced in South America. Al

Antti, This photo is not supposed to represent what a 6.5mm Carcano is capable of with a headshot, but is to show what a rifle is capable of in striking the head. The .50cal rifle load has three times the energy of that of the Carcano and the destructive force with by consistent with that multitude of energy. I believe we are accepting too much to narrow our focus on the wound as one made by a 6.5mm MC. I am not saying that it was done by a .50, and in fact don't believe it for a moment as I have seen first hand what the fifty can do. I am showing a high range of rifle caliber destruction and you can compare that to the Lattimer test skulls and others to see there are some issues with what is seen in the Z-Film and other photographic evidence of the plaza. Al

Pat, This was an Iraqi insurgent shot by a sniper. Although I do not know for a fact whether the round fragged or not, I know that the projectile is not designed to fragg under these conditions. Al

Frank, Thank you for the kind words. The 6.5mm MC fired a a variety of bullet weights, but the one found in the rifle on the sixth floor was a 160gr full metal jacketed bullet (FMJ) that had a muzzle velocity of 2000fps. I have one and have done my own testing with it and have attached a performance chart compiled by using the WBL ballistics calculator. Al

Al, Perhaps you could write a few lines on this thread by just doing a general comparison of the photo you have and the available JFK photos? I mean no photos needed on the thread, just discuss how the wounds are similar or how they differ, and what can be deduced from the comparison and JFK's wounds. Personally, I'd be interested in hearing more expert opinions as to whether it was likely that JFK's head wound was caused by a FMJ bullet or not and whether it could have been caused by a large caliber revolver or pistol (closer range), as opposed to a high powered rifle fired from a distance. Not knowing much, I would still argue that a full metal jacket bullet would typically cause a through and through wound, with a small entry wound and an exit wound varying in size and shape (even if hit in the head). However, I have a hard time believing that an exit wound caused by a FMJ bullet would take off a quarter of one's skull (like JFK). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Antti, I would recommend that you e-mail me and have me send you the photo and go from there. What this is referring to is the dispersion of energy caused by a FMJ within a contained cavity such as the skull. With rifle caliber projectiles (1800fps or greater) the dispersion of energy is sufficient to create a wound cavity beyond the diameter of the projectile and that of the dispersion of energy rate, that would create such massive damage within the cavity and cause a severe disruption at the point of exit. The photo I am referring to is an extreme as it deals with a .50 caliber rifle projectile, but you will get the point when viewing it. There is still so many who misunderstand this and believe that a compromised projectile that fragments can only cause this traumatic dispersion, when in truth, it is the opposite. The fragments loose energy quickly, and while they cause interior tissue damage, they do not create this internal explosive energy within the cavity and definately do not have the ability to maintain the energy and velocity to create the explosive damage at the point of exit. Al

Anyone interested in seeing a .50 cal heashot which is extreme wound ballistics, I will e-mail it to you in reply if you e-mail me at polinst@mchsi.com. I will only send to those I know as serious researchers and adults and warn not to open in presence of children as it is very graphic. Note that the bullet was FMJ. Al

As far as judging his intelligence on his ability to become fluent in Russian from Monteray Linguistics School, one has nothing to do with the other IMO. I have a nephew who is a math genius and could not flip burgers at a McDonalds. I was fluent in Spanish at one time and am no way a rocket scientist. In regards to his being trained in interrogation techniques, they were referring to his ability to shut down instead of being lulled into talking about topics he did not want to open up. Al

This is an example of making the evidence point to what you want it be. Please answer this question. What is the purpose of these individuals being at the sight of the attack? Al

Not a stupid question at all. There are three possibilities: 1. Zapruder and Sitzman were atop the pedestal. 2. Somebody else were there and Zapruder and Sitzman were substituted. 3. Nobody was there, and Zapruder and Sitzman were added. I favor the latter because of this Wiegman frame. Jack <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jack, It is obvious that Zapruder is blocking the windows if you closely study his body frame and consider the timeframe of the Wiegman frame to get your second answer. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Al...I do not understand your comments. 1. I have shown that Zapruder was NOT blocking the window (see earlier posting) 2. The "timeframe" of the Wiegman frame is at a time which Z&S were alleged to be standing IN BRIGHT SUNLIGHT atop the pedestal. Your comments do not make sense to me. Jack <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jack, As to #1, I believe Bill Miller has addressed that. As to #2, allow me to be the devil's advocate here as so much is taken for granted on these issues. Looking at the activity on the sidewalk in the foreground, please explain the timeframe after the shooting that this frame was taken from. How long did Zapruder and Sitzman stay atop the pedestal after the shots? Considering the poor quality of the photo as the subjects in the foreground are so blurred, how does this relate to the background blending of the area atop the pedestal? Have you tried to enhance this area as you did with the Mooreman photo that shows Badgeman? Does this make more sense? Al

Al, do you think the persons who set up LHO as a patsy knew he was working for the government (thereby, perhaps, guarateeing a cover-up) or do you think they thougjt he was a nutty leftist and set him up to blame Castro? (If you have an opinion.) It seems tautological that if we can figure out who set up LHO we will know who killed JFK. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, I definately agree with your last sentence. The problem is finding who set him up as their would be many from various agencies who would know of LHO. I cannot fathom that he was not part of the "defector program" along with Air Force Non-Com John Glenn and at least nine others at the time he staged his defection. If this was the case, the Military Intel units would be aware of him, the State Dept. who loaned him the money to come home would be aware of him, the FBI who did not immediately debrief him would know of him. In N.O., if he was working for the FBI to find pro and anti-Castro supporters, which I believe he was, the Military Intel units would be aware of him again as would the CIA in the form of WH and SR so that they would not disrupt what they were all doing there. IMO, there were many low level persons like LHO who were expendable and if one could catch breaks on what was going down in Chicago and Miami in the month of November, they would likely find some like LHO. I believe one is evident in Chicago. Al

IMO, Oswald's work in N.O. was a dead giveaway that he was a small time operative for some agency within the government, and most likely partly controlled by the FBI. The man, when working earned roughly 1.25 an hour, yet set up this so-called branch of the FPCC out of a anti-Castro supporter's office (Guy Bannister) who is former? FBI. He then offered his service to the Anti-Castro group and was then involved in a so-called street fight where he taunter Brungier and never threw a punch. And then asked to speak with the FBI in jail. This is the same man who purchased a rifle and revolver through mail order from businesses that were being investigated by the ATF. The man was low level in my opinion and expendable for whoever had access to him and utilized him as the patsy. As far as his level of intelligence. Note how well he comes off in a rehearsed fashion in interviews and at the American Embassy in Moscow and then falls apart when he has to adlib. Al

Not a stupid question at all. There are three possibilities: 1. Zapruder and Sitzman were atop the pedestal. 2. Somebody else were there and Zapruder and Sitzman were substituted. 3. Nobody was there, and Zapruder and Sitzman were added. I favor the latter because of this Wiegman frame. Jack <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jack, It is obvious that Zapruder is blocking the windows if you closely study his body frame and consider the timeframe of the Wiegman frame to get your second answer. Al

Denis, Another one we all could have wrote. Blakey screaming it was the mob and Posner saying it was Oswald and Ruby acting seperately. Classic example of how one finds what they are looking for when they consciously or subconsciously direct an investigation to where they want it to go. Evidence is interpreted to fit their needs and leads are focused on what they want the case to prove. Works very well until it is challenged. Another sad installment into this case. Al

Pamela, We are not disagreeing on the type of glass in the windshield. I am basing what I posted on the size of hole on the 5,000 plus shots I have taken through windshields over the years as I stated in my previous post. I have been attempting to download a photo of an older vehicle I fired several shots through the windshield, but it will not let me add it. The reason I took this particular photo is that it shows how one can determine angle of origin and impact by the dimensions of the hole. In the lower right of the windshield, the shots were fired directly on and the hole is extremely small. There is considerable cracking in this photo as the windshield was old and had extensive exposure to the elements to dry it out. I make one more attempt to attach it as I have shrunk it down twice now and it still will not accept it. If it doesn't take, e-mail me and I will attach it there. Al

In the fourteen-plus years that I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination, I have noted that many researchers are motivated in their direction by who had the strongest motive to assassinate JFK. The problem with this is, determining the strongest motive is speculation and is influenced by whoever the researcher has either consciously or subconsciously focused on, or who is in their field of expertise. As one who has studied this period a great deal, finding those who did not have a motive to eliminate JFK from the White House in short order would be easier to list than those who did. - The CIA had obvious issues with him through NSAM 54-56 and his reluctance to act as they wanted on the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis. And they also factor into Kennedy’ determination to get out of Vietnam. - The military had their agenda against him for his reluctance to pursue a head-on attack against Castro’s Cuba, pulling out of Vietnam and his planned military expenditure cuts in defense spending (along with his political agenda for awarding of military armament contracts). - The Mafia had their own issues with JFK for his failure to follow through with the removal of Castro and with Bobby’s attack on them after they aided in getting JFK into office. The decreasing support of the SE Asia conflict would also cut into their profits, as well as their European Allies in the form of the Corsican Mafia. - The anti-Castro Cubans felt abandoned by the JFK administration and their was an obvious hatred toward him within the community for his failure to support their actions in the Bay of Pigs Invasion (which they blamed on JFK which I believe was not correct), and what we now find was an in-the-works détente with Castro, instead of continuing support of an overthrow of Castro’s regime. - The FBI had their own motive which would come down from their director J. Edgar Hoover who had a personal hatred for the Kennedy Brothers and their Ivy League Administration. - The right wing extremists including groups such as The Minutemen and the likes where we could throw General Walker in, obviously had issues with the Kennedy Administration. Bringing Oswald into this equation would be quite a feat. - Communists Governments such as the Soviet Union and Cuba would also have to be considered, but only for a short time, as Kennedy was quickly becoming more their ally than their enemy. Why they would choose this time to remove someone who was beginning to come around to what they wanted is beyond me. One can research files until the cows come home and speculate links to the assassination and it will get us nowhere, as the true links will not be found in the files. We can link CIA to Mafia to Anti-Castro Cuban Elements to FBI aftermath Investigative cover-ups and make a pretty good story, but it would still be speculation. The ultimate error in using motive as a means for an investigative angle is that in most cases and especially this one, there is not a shortage for motives in many directions. It is important to realize who had a motive, but not to allow it to influence the direction of the investigation. Instead, an investigator should look at the events leading to the act and determine who was capable of staging the crime. In the JFK Assassination, most were, but where we again get confused is by trying to combine a conspiracy to assassinate the president and a conspiracy to cover up the crime. If the two were of the same origin, then so many individuals and agencies would have had to been involved, that there is no way it could have been kept secret to this day. If we look at the events leading up to the assassination on the Presidential itinerary, we find a cancelled trip to Chicago on November 2nd and then an altered travel plan in Miami on November 18th. In both of these cases, the Secret Service was tipped off to plans to assassinate the President and took them so seriously that instead of simply sending in the authorities to stop the attempt, they chose to take away the opportunity. In these two cases, intelligence worked for them. In Dallas it did not. If you look at Lawson’s testimony before the Warren Commission, you find that he had ample notification of the trip to Dallas that he was going to be the advance agent in charge. Lawson went to the Protective Research Section at the Secret Service before leaving D.C. and found nothing in the files of concerns for the Dallas region. He then became vague in matters of intel gathered by the local office of the Secret Service and the local LE agencies intel units. I have yet to find any line of questioning of any Secret Service Agent that brought up the issues of Chicago and Miami to link them to what happened in Dallas to make an issue that their should have been a concern for the pattern that was developing. The question was never asked, so it was never addressed. So what does all of this mean? The Secret Service develops a Watch List for regions across the country on known threats to the President, VP or whatever other dignitaries that they are assigned to protect. They share the watch list of the particular region they are visiting with the local LE to assure that any possible person who would threaten the dignitary is under surveillance at the time of the visit. Today with the technology and communication capabilities that we have that are far better than in ’63, I can understand why fewer concerns get through without detection. But even in ’63, if there was any intel available of a threat in Dallas, it would have reached Lawson through either the local office or the local LE agencies intel units. It appears that the threat was not known. It is apparent IMO that whoever was taken into custody in Chicago and questioned, besides the ex-Marine with the M1, and the lack of follow-up interrogation with Milteer in Miami immediately, that the FBI was not close to understanding who was behind these plots. But because of how quickly they acted on covering up the true assassination sequence in Dallas, they were well aware that the plots were linked. Now add to this the success of the Dallas assassination plot, the ability of the shooters to get out undetected and the fact that we are still trying to make sense of it some forty-plus years later, we have to understand that there were very few individuals involved in the hands-on planning and operation of the assassination, and that those who did know anything ceased to exist shortly after the act was completed. So where do we go from here? I am open to suggestion… Al

Pamela, the one thing we appear to be agreeing on here is that 100X did NOT have a bullet proof glass windshield. I began studying bullet penetrations on vehicle windshields in 1997 for Law Enforcement. The motivation behind this was that we began seeing an unusually high rate of police shootings in and around vehicles at this time, according to the FBI's LEOKA records. I have a background in weapons and ballistics and from 1995 until the spring of 2004, ran a police training facility equipped with multiple ranges and instructed various levels of firearms training to multiple LE agencies. I took advantage of the range and began studying the various effects of bullet penetration through car windshields. I also attended and took part in ballistic conferences held by three of the major ammunition manufacturers, who utilized glass and windshield glass penetration as part of their testing for the various products on the market. I fired everything from a variety of rifle projectiles starting with FMJ and down, to various handgun bullets down to the 9mm SXT. I also performed these tests from various angles and at windshields positioned in various angles to mirror the variety of windshield settings on vehicles. I tested the velocities of the projectiles beyond penetration, the penetration deflections and what the effects of the penetration had the composition of the bullets. While it is common knowlege that heavy clothing layers effect velocity of the bullet considerably, it is the windshield penetrations that disrupt the composition of the bullet the most. In most cases, the jacketing is either fully or partially stripped from the core. I also found that trajectory after penetration would be altered by 4.5-6" when impacting a target six feet beyond the penetration. What happens is the compression of the outer layer of glass into the interior laminent will cause a rollover of energy from the point of the bullet that impact first. In other words, if fired directly on, the lower portion of the nose of the bullet will impact first and cause the bullets trajectory to turn downward. The hole that is left behind in the windshield after a bullet penetration will show the angle of trajectory of the bullet on impact. The shape of the powdering of the external layer of glass will show this. Also, the internal layer of vinyl laminent will stretch and snap back to a degree in many cases and show a hole smaller in diameter than the projectile. If the interior of the limo would have been properly preserved for evidence collection, we would have had evidence of their was windshield penetration from the front, as their would have been traces of laminent particles in the path of the bullet and on the victim, as well as a wider spray of fine shards of glass. With the questionable procedures of processing of the clothing of both the Governor and the President, and with the washing out of the interior of the limo at Parkland, the trace evidence went out the window. As far as the webbing and cracking of the windshield glass on bullet impact, their are variables involved here. One would be the diameter v. the velocity v. the angle of impact. Another would be the age and the exposure to the elements of the windshield glass. The cracking and webbing is not as dramatic in most cases as most think, and it is not as visible from the inner side as the outer impact side. Al

Pamela, As I earlier posted, the hole may very well appear smaller than the diameter of the projectile as the vinyl internal laminent stretches and closes back in to a degree. The cracking is not as pronounced as one would think on a standard windshield glass unless the glass has been aged by considerable exposure to the eliments, especially intensive sun. Bulletproof glass would show considerable powdering and radiating fractures on the surface of impact as it is designed to prevent penetration through the layers and absorbs the energy of the impact on the exterior surface. I have never understood where some believe that 100X had a bulletproof windshield there is no documentation to suggest that and what is seen on it does not support it either. Thanks for the reply. Al

What we should consider here is that we are dealing with windshield penetration, which is totally different from standard or framed safety glass penetration. The tempering is different and the composition of the makeup is different. Windshields are comprised of two sheets of tempered glass that are bonded by an interior vinyl laminent layer. I did hands-on studies with this intially that had nothing to do with the JFK Assassination, but were done for LE Safety issues in testing various bullets (the effects the penetration had on their composition and trajectory). I have since worked angles on this in respect to the JFK Assassination. When a bullet impacts the windshield, it compresses the outer layer of glass into the interor vinyl laminent and produces a powdering effect on the exterior surface where the bullet impacted. Depending on the age and exposure to elements that the windshield has been put through will vary the outer cracking on the exterior and even interior portion. The vinyl will stretch and snap back to a degree and often show a smaller hole than the diameter of the bullet. What is seen on the outside of the glass is often totally different than what is seen on the inside. The angle one looks at the hole will also effect what they see. This is why we are hearing some many variations as to what was seen on the windshield of the Kennedy limo, and what is seen in photographic evidence. I have attached a photo (tried to anyway) on an older vehicle that I fired numerous shots into the windshield of. I used two different caliber projectiles and fired from various horizontal and vertical angles. Note in the photo that one can determine the direction and elevation of the incoming impact. I am unable to add an attachment here. If anyone is interested in seeing what I referred to in the attachment, e-mail me at polinst@mchsi.com. and I will forward it to you. Al

Maybe I should point out here that I believe the silenced weapon was not a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle nor was it fired from the TSBD. I believe it was an automatic weapon of some sort--quite possibly an AR-15, and that it was fired from the roof of the Dal-Tex. Furthermore, it missed its target and hit Kennedy in the hairline and Connally in the armpit. John's mention of a fatal nose yaw could quite possibly explain the slightly elongated wound on Connally. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pat, the problem with the likes of a AR-15 would be that it fires a 5.56mm bullet in the weight range of 50-69gr and velocity range of 2400-2600fps. The lighter the bullet, the less the sustained velocity once the bullet's velocity begins to significantly drop off. If it's velocity is compromised at the muzzle, then it would drop in velocity and trajectory all the faster. With this higher expected velocity, and to bring it down to a level that would compromise the report and bullet bow shockwave, would give a significant drop of as much as 1/6th of what it is designed for. Al

Al, I just thought to add that if one takes your figures from above and adds to that the some 14" scope misalignment factor determined by the Edgewood Arsenal Examination of C2766 then LHO, had he been firing from the TSBD with such a load would have been dealing with a 28" bullet drop, not to mention the windage factor. Also, when dealing with a bullet nearly 28mm long at such a reduced velocity being fired through a standard Carcano twist, the centrifical force would be compromised invariably moving the Magnus Moment forward of the center of gravity producing a fatal nose yaw resulting in an unstable external ballistic trajectory and the loss of any hope of downrange accuracy. Some truely magic shooting I would say. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> John, Excellent points! The one factor that we haven't mention is one that would bring it closer to the point of impact and that being the gravitational pull factor, when dealing with a shallow back wound. Firing from some sixty feet in the air at this range would raise the poi some eleven to fourteen inches. Bring in the 28 inch bullet drop and you would have some 14-17" below poa for poi. Then take into account a time in flight issue with the limo proceeding downward and away at a slight angle, you could narrow the poi from poa some 3-4 more inches. This could give a drop range of 10-14". Consider that the original poa is the back of the head and where the backwound was, it would put it in the ballpark at least. But still, as you say, it still makes it rather magical on the part of the shooter. Al

Al, Having been on both sides of the fence as it were...My Father has been involved with LE for over 50 years and still carries one of the oldest living badges in the State of Montana [#17 Cascade County Sheriff's Dept.] and is the former commander of the State Mountain Patrol S&E. I myself have had extensive dealings with various LE personel over the past 30 years as well as having seen the inside of a few jails. [i'm no Choir-Boy] I think I'm in somewhat of a unique position to comment on this issue. Personally, I would like to have you remain part of this forum. I must confess that I was extreamly interested in your exchanges with Tim and Wim as it very plainly shows the dichotomy and deep rifts that exists between the various segments of our society, and the need for resolution. Also, I would ask you to remain as there are far too few people involed in this forum that have any extensive knowledge of firearms and ballistics. Quite frankly, more people like you are needed here. If Tim and Wim have a problem following the rules of this forum then so be it. John Simkin has spelled everything out as plainly as I think is humanly possible and has been more than fair in his dealings with everyone which as far as I'm concerned should be commended. People who are interested in [Flame-Wars] should go over to the alt.conspiracy.jfk newsgroup where they can flame away to their hearts content and leave this forum to the serious researchers. IMHO. With respect to the issue of too few LE people involved in the JFK case: I am attempting to get the LE people I am personally involved with to at least check out this forum; quality people such as, Col. Craig Roberts(Ret.) who is a former marine sniper and former commander of the Tulsa Ok. PD-SWAT and who now runs a private agency, Centurian Investigations comprised of various LE officers as well as members of the 13 Sisters, and who is a personal friend. [For the laymen/women, the 13 Sisters are the various US Intelligence Agencys] Finally Al, I'm am personally being besieged by private requests for ballistic information and I could use your help in fielding some of this as I am trying to compose an extensive article for posting here on my personal connection to the JFK case which involves individuals here-to-for unnamed but are now deceased relieving me of my confidenciality agreements. As a Footnote: I would also welcome Tim and Wim back to this forum if they can agree to abide by John Simkin's very basic and simple forum rules for civil discussion and dispense with the ad hominum behavior. [Nuff Said] Respectfully: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> John, Thank you for the kind words. I would be happy to answer some e-mails for you so you can do your work. Feel free to forward them to me at polinst@mchsi.com and I will do what I can. If they respond that they would prefer to hear directly from you, I will send them back to you. Al

I see that you refer to magistrates being killed in Italy. You will find very few examples of politicians being killed by the Mafia. Like in America, the Mafia concentrate on bribing rather than killing politicians. John Simkin John, I believe the many reason you cite in this post to argue against the participation of organized crime in the assassination is that organized crime does not (in the United States anyway) kill politicians, They bribe them. Well, the Mafia "bribed" JFK: Skinny D'Amato delivered $500,000 to Joe Kennedy in early March of 1960. But the Kennedys double-crossed the Mafia. Rather than protecting the Mafia, the Kennedy Administration went after the Mafia with a vengenance. It may be true that the Mafia would prefer to bribe politicians rather than kill them. It may even be that the Mafia does not kill politicians who stay "straight" and refuse the Mafia offers of bribes or other forms of largesse. Certainly the Mafia would not kill a politician who accepted the bribe and was delivering the expected quid pro quo. But logic suggests that the Mafia might kill a politician who accepts a bribe and then welshes. Also, I think there is solid evidence that the Mafia in America did indeed kill politicians. Let's look at Chicago. The following quote is from the article "Raising Cain" by Richard C. Lindberg. (A link is below the quote.) "Testifying before the Kefauver committee hearings on organized crime in September 1950, Phil D’Andrea a deputy bailiff who served writs and carried a gun for Capone, enumerated his former bosses’ political allegiance. “What was Al Capone? He was a Republican when it fitted his clothes I guess, and a Democrat otherwise.” "The assassination of uncooperative politicians, those who would betray or compromise the Bloc in some way, or the reformers who attempted to destroy the Bloc all together, had occurred with numbing regularity dating back to the 1920s. "On February 6, 1952, a retired soft-drink executive named Charles Gross was cut down in a fusillade of syndicate bullets as he walked to a political meeting near Kedzie and North Avenue. Gross was the acting 31st Ward Republican Committeeman, but he had defied a recent standing order from the West Side Bloc to avoid meddling in gambling operations." http://www.search-international.com/whatsn...raisingcain.htm Of course, many people argue that the Chicago mob (known as the "Outfit") was involved in the Kennedy assassination. (Tim Gratz) Some key questions to consider here is what precedence has the Kennedy Assassination been linked to other acts by the mafia? A hale of bullets on a Chicago Street to a city med level figure is a far cry from a triangulation of gunfire on a sitting president having full protection. The Roselli-Lansdale-Harvey Cuban Operation produced such great results that it would surely be utilized for the assassination of John Kennedy? This operation was a joke and nothing but a classic fleecing of America as substancial dollars were put into it with no results whatsover, and it ended abruptly after the assassination. Does anyone really believe that with all the FBI wiretaps of the mafia in the years following the assassination, that none picked up any incling of mafia involvement and that of those that did were able to be swept under the rug? Would you trust the likes of the mob to hit the president successfully and keep it quiet all these years? Al

Dawn, May I refer you to the Lancer Archives for our previous go-around? I agree that I used poor discretion in getting into it with Tim here, but I got a little sick of his "cop corruption" attitude in cases that are explained away by poor performance. LE are human beings and can be swept up in the heat of the moment like anyone else. Those who are poorly trained are more succeptable. I asked Tim to outline his issues with corrupt actions of the DPD. He instead posted identical postings attacking me on every current thread he could find. If you want Tim's story posted here on the forum, I suggest you e-mail him, get it and post it here for him. I would be interested to see what his defense is for his actions. I have sustained too many physical scars and dealt with too many psychological delimas over the years in my job and seen too many quality LE officers go out on physical and mental disabilities at the rate of 30% (which should be higher but they cannot support their families on the pension), to take his abuse of this profession. Am I defensive when it comes to this? You bet I am. Will I be the first to scream dirty cop when I see it? Definately as that reflects on the majority who are trying to simply serve the public on a modest wage. If you or anyone else would care to point out evidence of corruption and a role in the assassination by a DPD officer, please post it and we can address it. But I will not stand for labeling LE as corrupt and badge heavy as Tim so cowardly states at every challenge made to him. Al

Pat, Antti and Dawn, The problem with a reduced charge load is that it would effect trajectory greatly. In order to achieve these shallow wounds, we would have to compromise the velocity in the neighborhood of 400-500fps. To use the 6.5mm MC as an example; this is a 160gr bullet designed for a 2000fps velocity. If you would reduce it's velocity, whether intentionally or unintentionally by way of a "dud" load for the latter, at 50 yards you would experience roughly an 14" drop in trajectory for point of aim to point of impact. Now if that was intentionally done with the load, then it would be a very difficult feat under normal circumstances, and with a moving target with a limited window of opportunity, it would be nearly impossible to achieve target elimination. This is what is referred to as lobbing. If this was the latter of above and simple a poorly ignited load "dud", the shooter would not even adjust their shot alignment to compensate as they would not know to do so. That is why I believe there had to have been some type of decrease in velocity through obstruction penetration near the target impact. Al

I have observed postings on this forum calling for me to be kicked off for violating the rules of the forum and have received e-mails from members asking me to leave, as I attacked Tim without cause. Most of the these members do not know the background of what happened here and why I became defensive and stood up to Tim Carroll. Allow me the opportunity to explain and feel free to go to Lancer and check their archives that support what I am posting. I have been a law enforcement officer for nearly twenty-two years. The first twelve, I worked the overnight shift as a patrol officer, CSI and FTO. During that time, I had been stabbed on three seperate occasions, held the record for my department on being assaulted in a variety of ways and was forced to shoot an individual who attacked me with an edged weapon. Also during that time period, I went through litigation on three seperate occasions, accusing me of brutality. Two being civil litigation and one through Federal Court for violation of rights. The latter was thrown out for lack of substance for the charge. The first two, one I was cleared on and the other the city settled out of court as it was not financially feasible to defend the case as the person was asking for a smaller monitary settlement than it would cost to fight it. Tim got ahold of this back at Lancer and has labeled me a dirty/corrupt cop. I have since worked in administration, running the training division and now as a Lieutenant/Watch commander. I have investigated complaints on officers and found that over ninety percent of the complaints on officers can be cleared by simply watching the in-car video recording of the suspected incident which shows the officer to be clean and the complainant to have filed a false complaint. Tim judged me without cause and has labeled me guilty of misconduct and brutality simply because some derelict filed on me. The one that went Federal was an individual that was strung out on crack and went around ripping wood exterior doors off their hinges and assaulting and robbing the elderly in their homes. He had lost a tooth in a struggle during his arrest when he was caught in the act. This arrest occurred on the shift prior to mine and I was not involved in it. I had the pleasure of working in the jail that night and he accused me of brutilizing him all night in the jail, and knocking out his tooth. This individual was strung out on crack and outweighed me by fifty pounds. Do I become defensive when my integrity is challenged by closed minds? Do I defend my career and occupation? Wouldn't all of you? Judge for yourself and if you want me to leave the forum still, I will gladly walk away. If the term "idiot" has offended all of you so much, then we have nothing more to discuss. How many law enforcement officers are their in the Kennedy Assassination Field? Does anyone wonder why? Al