Al Carrier

Tosh, I think it is time to take this a step further… In the fall of 1981, one of several blocks of instruction on Counterinsurgency was given at SOA in Ft. Benning that focused on insertion of operational personnel into a specific region in Central America by utilizing indigenous personnel, financing these operational procedures by way of narcotics trafficking and gunrunning to counterevoloutionary elements within the region. The class was attended by some twenty-five subjects dressed in fatigues without rank or unit insignia who were all dark haired, brown eyed and tanned skinned, but spoke the English Language with no or little accent. They all carried a military bearing and were disciplined not to small talk amongst each other. Whether they had Latin descent or not, they could all pass for indigenous personnel and were all obviously US military personnel. The class was instructed by one Edwin Wilson, a ?former? CIA employee who was wanted at the time by the US for selling C4 and rockets to Lybia. With Wilson, was CIA employee Thomas Clines and another CIA employee who would later come under indictment twice in the Iran/Contra Hearings and walk on both charges. The latter not named for reasons that will not be commented on. The students in the class would attend together other courses of specific nature to counterinsurgency including; Latin American Cultures, Spanish Linguistics Specific to the Region, Implementation of Coercion Tactics that involved Execution by scoped rifle, explosive ordinance and contact torture and execution. The manual issued out in the specified courses was the Clandestine Operational Manual for Central America. It referred to both true operational and false operational cover procedures. Elements of indigenous personnel were to be utilized for access to targets and for blame of operational success and failure as a hands-on participant, when they were not. Organized crime would be utilized for financing and money laundering of such operations and could also be utilized to blame for such operations. What does this have to do with the Kennedy Assassination of 18 years earlier, it is to put it into perspective with the evidence that is surfacing and the connections those are making to link non-American Personnel to the hands-on operation in DP. Al

Jim, I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage. You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very interesting thread. Al, do you have any comments on the paraffin test made on Oswald's face and hands? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Parrafin tests are unreliable as there are many, many items that one can handle that will result in a false positive. That is why most agencies do not even conduct these tests anymore. The courts have not challenged them due to false negatives, as this has not been the case. With Oswald, his duties at the TSBD was to fill book orders. He handled order forms that contained carbon paper, which would give a false positive testing to the paraffin tests. As you know, his hands tested positive and his face tested negative. There is no way to fire a rifle such as the MC and not test positive on the face. The arguement to this has been that he simply washed his face after the shooting of JFK and not his hands after Tippitt. If this is the case, when did he do it? He didn't have time in the TSBD. Roberts did not advise of it at the rooming house. If he did it at the DPD after his arrest, did he use his feet to wash his face? I have always looked at this by trying to build a prosecution against LHO. Everything presented as a prosecution case would be open for challenge by the defense. This is simply one of many that would be successfully challenged and make LHO a free man. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very instructive comments. Just a few follow-up questions. 1) Is it easy to wash off paraffin? 2) How clear is it it that firing a rifle will ALWAYS leave paraffin on the face that will show up on a test? Is this beyond debate? Or at least very clear. Since by Mrs. Roberts' testimony (and even the timing) it seems clear that LHO did not take time in his rooming house to wash up, in your opinion is the negative paraffin test on LHO's face a very convincing proof that LHO did not fire a rifle on Nov 22, 1963? 3) How often are there "false positive" paraffin tests? Does the positive paraffin test on LHO's hands indicate (for instance by the civil standard of the "greater weight of the evidence" even if not by the criminal standard) that LHO fired a pistol? If this is the case, it would tend to support a scenario that LHO was a patsy but did shoot Tippit in attempting to get away. I could see an innocent man knowing he was the object of a sophisticated frame being willing to shooy a police officer to escape. In other words, even if LHO did shoot Tippit, he could still be innocent of killing Tippit. The paraffin tests might suggest this scenario. Or do you believe that paraffin tests are SO inconclusive that the poisitive paraffin test on LHO's hands should be totally discounted? Thanks again for your help! It seems the negative paraffin test on LHO's face is at a minimum very strong evidence that he did not fire a rifle on that fateful Friday. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, 1 - Generally, the nitrates deposited that are picked up by the paraffin tests are embedded into to the pores of the skin, but can be compromised in nature by simple washing with water if it is rubbed into the surface. I had one individual who was locked down in a cell and the water turned off, who had apparently overheard what we were planning, deposit a bowel movement into his hands and rub it into all exposed skin surfaces. Obviously, we did not do the paraffin samples on him. 2 - Even closed bolt rifles will emenate the nitrates onto the skin of the face due to their proximety to the release of the nitrate carrying gases. Although they are less in volume than a autoloading bolt, the closed bolt still has to release the pressure back or it will lock up the action. Additional nitrates are released back after the bolt is opened and another round chamber in the case of multiple shots fired. 3 - False positive case law is what has made paraffin testing cease to be court acceptable in most jurisdictions. In the case of Oswald, by showing he handled material such as carbon paper, that would be sufficient to challenge the reliability of the paraffin test to show he fired a firearm. I believe a sophisticated challenge, especially with what we know today about the reliability of the paraffin tests, would throw out this as evidence that he fired any firearm. Al

I have tried a couple of time to persuade Robert Groden to join this forum. I will try again today. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> John, I put Groden at the level of Harold Weisberg on a scale of dedicated and respected researchers. To me, it is the highest level one can reach. To bring Robert Groden here would be fantastic to further forum discussion and research. Al

He did not look like James Bond. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It was a clever CIA disguise. Seriously, I think the statement attributed to JFK including the comment that he said it in disbelief was because Harvey did not look like James Bond. I read somewhere that Ted Shackley was very close to Harvey. Given Harvey's shape, he was sometimes refered to as "Pear" so some in the CIA started to refer to Shackley as "son of Pear". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim and John, Could it be that beyond his physical appearance, JFk may have been referring to Harvey's demeanor. He was a loud and obnoxious alcoholic by all reports who flashed his sidearm in meetings with mob heirarchy whom he idolized. And he was relied upon for the ZR-Rifle program? And then add Lansdale who had his own ego issues that included his reveling at being the Ugly American. Quite the super-secret operation we were running. In the case of Morales, he was nothing more than a shadow on the surface yet went onto head up Phoenix in SE Asia and it wasn't until much later, when he was working on contract for the DOD, that his own alcoholism loosened his tongue and he died of questionable causes. As to your intention of the thread, is there a fear in being open about aspects of the assassination, ask Tosh, for example. Al

I concur that the targeting of a political leader (or a military leader, for that matter) might sometimes be justified in a time of war but otherwise not at all. One can conceive of a situation when moral considerations could justify an exception, e.g. if the foreign leader was, clearly, engaging in genocide and his elimination could save thousands of innocent lives. (In American law, one can kill a third person if that person is about to kill another person, and few would doubt the morality of that.) But we do enter a "slippery slope" if we entertain killing of foreigners other than in a war situation. With respect to the Castro assassination plots, it is my understanding that some (but certainly not all of the plots) contemplated killing Fidel, Raul and Che. When we recently lifted the ban on assassinations, I wonder if the law imposed any restraints, or did it give the CIA unlimited discretion in this regard? (God forbid!) Anyone familiar with the actual law? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Realistically, Federal Law or constitutional ammendments have never played a part in controllling such operations. Note Boland 1 and 2 of the eighties and how it was violated on a regular basis and in the end, nothing was done about the violations as all basically walked away. And that is with the evidence that came out. The investigation never touched on the teams of US soldiers who went into Central America and assassinated key figures in cities and in the field. All we remember about that is Ollie taking the oath proudly and lying through his teeth. Joe Fernandez waltzed away with him and now they own a company that produces ballistic vests to LE and the military. JUSTICE eh? Al

Taking your last thought first: we ought to prosecute both, shouldn't we? But if we catch the trigger man, law enforcement often bargains its way up, and I agree this is a defensible strategy to prosecute those ultimately responsible. Parenthetically, I have appreciated your posts and your law enforcement training gives you the training and credentials to comment knowingly on many of the issues. From my reading of Rosselli, I think he was probably intelligent enough to plan the assassination (but I am not yet sure if he did). Have you read the magisterial biography of Rosselli by Rappleye and Becker? And Mahoney in Sons and Brothers states that Giancana brought Rosselli in to orchestrate the Chicago mob's rigging of the 1960 election. Giancana realized he needed Rosselli's intelligence to supervise the Outfit's "get out the vote" efforts. (JFK would have won the election without Illinois, but not without Illinois and Texas.) Rosselli was known as the "Kissinger" of the mob for his intelligence. He wsas one of two men who helped construct the Tropicana Hotel. I do not believe Rosselli was involved in the ridiculous plots you mention: those were the brainwork of Lansdale and Fitzgerald. When I read of the various schemes they concocted, I wonder, what were these guys thinking? Rosselli was involved in giving CIA poison to Cubans who were to slip it into Castro's food or drink so his death would not even be considered a murder and the killer would escape with his life. The problem, as I see it, is that Rosselli was getting his Cubans from Trafficante who, I believe, was reporting to Fidel. I am also not sure I agree with you re LHO. Whether there was one Oswald or two, one was fluent enough in Russian to discuss Russian literature in fluent Russian, an indicia that he was more intelligent than he was often given credit for. It is possible LHO was a genuine Castro supporter but anti-Castro Cubans manipulated him to shoot Kennedy by pointing out to him, for instance, Castro's remarks to the AP reporter on September 7, 1963. Two staff counsel for the WC wrote a memo suggesting this possibility but, of course, it was never pursued. This scenario assumes that the ongoing Cubela affair was merely coincidental. This scenario could occur if LHO was a lone shooter or if the planners added shooters to complete the job if Oswald missed. Your thread about missing evidence is quite persuasive, however, re LHO's actual participation. The unfortunate thing, of course, is that both pro and anti Castro Cubans had reason to want Kennedy killed - so it is possible that the person(s) who did the killing were being manipulated by persons with a diametrically opposite agenda. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, I totally respect your opinions and you are an extremely competant researcher. My problem with utilizing the mob and the anti-Castro Cubans in this is that this is still unsolved. We can track the dirty deeds of the mobsters and the select anti-Castro Cubans prior to and after the assassination, because the their level of secrecy is far short of respectable. Yet we have been looking seriously at the JFK assassination for over forty years and we cannot do more than imply connections at best. The President's life was threatened with a realistic plan on two previous occasions in November of '63 with similarities as to the Dallas Operation. Both were compromised (Chicago and Miami) and Kennedy made it to Dallas where it succeeded. With what the intel community and the FBI were aware of during this period of these individuals, then how did they fail to isolate the threat in Dallas. How was it so quickly covered up when it went down? This was a professional operation that could not be traced then or now. The authorities obviously realized it at the time throughout November '63 and were helpless to prevent it in the long run. This type of operation was not one to be assigned to radical anti-Castro Cubans or mobsters. There is no precedence to show prior or latter operational standards consistant with this. Military ops has been doing this type of thing long before and to present day after the assassination of JFK. Al

Jim, I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage. You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing. Al <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very interesting thread. Al, do you have any comments on the paraffin test made on Oswald's face and hands? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, Parrafin tests are unreliable as there are many, many items that one can handle that will result in a false positive. That is why most agencies do not even conduct these tests anymore. The courts have not challenged them due to false negatives, as this has not been the case. With Oswald, his duties at the TSBD was to fill book orders. He handled order forms that contained carbon paper, which would give a false positive testing to the paraffin tests. As you know, his hands tested positive and his face tested negative. There is no way to fire a rifle such as the MC and not test positive on the face. The arguement to this has been that he simply washed his face after the shooting of JFK and not his hands after Tippitt. If this is the case, when did he do it? He didn't have time in the TSBD. Roberts did not advise of it at the rooming house. If he did it at the DPD after his arrest, did he use his feet to wash his face? I have always looked at this by trying to build a prosecution against LHO. Everything presented as a prosecution case would be open for challenge by the defense. This is simply one of many that would be successfully challenged and make LHO a free man. Al

From an FBI report on interviews of Marina Oswald in December 1963 (FBI File # 100-10,461, Commission Exhibit 1403): “MARINA did not see OSWALD either take the rifle with him from the house in New Orleans or bring it back with him to the house on any occasion. She never saw him clean it, nor did he ever hold it in her presence as best she can recall. “She cannot recall that he ever practiced firing the rifle in New Orleans or in Dallas. She does not think he did practice in New Orleans because as a rule he stayed home when he was not working. When he did go out, she did not see him take the rifle. “OSWALD did not have any ammunition for the rifle to her knowledge either in Dallas or New Orleans, and he did not speak of buying ammunition.” http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol22_0404b.htm Now see her WC testimony on February 3, 1964: Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time? Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. Mr. RANKIN. And where do you remember his having it in the places you lived? Mrs. OSWALD. On Neely Street, in Dallas, and New Orleans. Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition? Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was for the rifle. Perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but I would not know the difference. Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time? Mrs. OSWALD. He had a box of about the size of this. Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? Was it 2 or 3 inches wide? Mrs. OSWALD. About the size here on the pad. Mr. RANKIN. About 3 inches wide and 6 inches long? Mrs. OSWALD. Probably. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for posting this Ron. This never made any sense to me either, other than to prove her testimony was coerced. Al

Hi Al, This has always struck me as strange, If one practices as much as the WC tried to make us believe Oswald did, then something would have turned up , empty ammo cartons, cleaning rods, bore patches, cleaning solvents, oil , etc. Of all the years ive been shooting, I never seem to get rid of something after I clean up after a shoot, just last night I found my bushing wrench for my 1911 that I was looking for for 6 months lol, and a set of NM sights for one of my M1's . I had stored these in a box in the garage and for the life of me couldnt remember where I placed them. IMHO Oswald was told to order that rifle, nothing more, nothing less. It reminds me of how the gangbangers work over here, telling the little guy to "hold" this until I need it. As they dont want anything linking them to the gun while not in use. It just makes no sense if Oswald owned that rifle and shot it as much as the WC said he did, that there was not "extras" found........Makes no sense. And his revolver goes right along with this....... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ryan, You may have a point about the rifle. I don't think there's any question in my mind LHO ordered it and had it in his possession. It gets pretty foggy after that. For someone that's been around guns, a cleaning kit is an essential. For someone who's not, who knows? Know of any of those gangbangers who sit around the kitchen table smokin crack cleaning their pistol after going to Wal Mart to buy a cleaning kit? Al, One thing I forgot to ask in my answer to your post... Since you been involved in many criminal investigations, how often have you gone to a crime scene at a house where gunplay was involved, and not found a cleaning kit or a box of ammo? RJS <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Richard, We see all levels of nonweapon persons involved in gunplay. I once raided a crack house and luckily took them by surprise on a no-knock search warrant and found a sawed off shotgun leaned against the wall just inside the front door. The low lifes loaded it with birdshot! Shows their knowlege of weapons and ballistics LOL. I have also seen cases where a search of the perps premises gave evidence directly linking them to the weapon and crime by the ammunition found. One extreme case was when two gang bangers held up a gas station and we took them down several blocks away. Their Tech22 and .22 smith revolver were found a hundred or so feet from where we took them down. All thirty bullets in the Tecg22 mag and the eight in the revolver cylinder were filed down at the tip. We did a search of one of the perps residences and found a half full box of ammo of the same brand, also with the tips filed down. It finally dawned on me why they took the time to file them down. The bullets were .22 long rifle and the revolver fired .22 shorts. The long rifle bullets had to be filed down for the cylinder to close in the revolver. They took the time to file all the bullets down. Talk about a slam dunk in trial to tie them to the guns and the crime. The big difference here, as Ryan has pointed out is that Oswald did have a military background that gave him basic knowlege of weapons and the importance of cleaning them to maintain their performance. He was dealing with a rifle he had mounted with a scope for a precision shot (as precise as one could get with that rifle and scope) and a fouled or pitted barrel would have considerable effect on the accuracy. And this rifle was found to be well maintained by the FBI lab. Failure to track the purchase of the ammunition is inexcusable in a case such as this with the resources the feds had. It tells me he did not purchase any ammo. Anyone with any common sense about weaponry would know that this was a weapon that was not found at every gunshop you would walk into and the ammo would be as rare. So why didn't he purchase the ammo along with the rifle through Klines, if he intended to use it? Al

Jim, I own the same model MC Rifle as the Oswald rifle and it does not have an under barrel rod storage. You are exactly right about the additional round left in the chamber. How convenient for future NAA testing. Al

Tim, Another excellent thread! A great deal of thought and cutting edge moral issues brought into this. I have a feeling that there will be considerable response to it which is fantastic, as it what this is all about. While I do not agree with you on who carried out the assassination, I respect your opinions as they are based on knowlege of the times. I do not agree that the anti-Castro Cubans would have set up the assassination without tipping their hands. They have been given a great deal more credit than they deserve in the field of Clandestine Operation secrecy. And the mafia line is not even a consideration IMHO as we had the likes of the Hollywood Pimp Roselli who worked with the likes of blowhard Lansdale to come up with rediculous schemes against Castro such as exploding seashells, poison cigars, etc.. None even came close to being realistically carried out, and could not compare with what happened in DP. I also believe too much weight is given to Oswald by many as a CIA or intelligence operative. He was low level to say the least as the Soviets and even the anti-Castro Cubans could see through him. Beyond a script, he fell apart. IMHO, he was an ideal patsy for the legend they created for him, in hindsight. The issue of the legality or even morality of government backed assassination, it is a complex issue that needs to be approached on case by case basis, as you have done on your initial posting on this thread. The issue of the Castro assassination attempts of the early sixties IMHO were totally unjustified as Castro came to power due to the majority of the people at the time of the takeover. If he became less than what the people wanted from their leader, then it was their responsibility to remove him from power. If the US could aid in this on a limited basis, then so be it, as long as it was what the majority of the Cuban populous wanted, not what the US government wanted. A classic example beyond Cuba circa early sixties is Nicaragua in the eighties. Was the US motivation to aid the majority of the country's populous or their own needs? Castro's overthrow failed because their was not an uprising within the island that was needed. The Sandanista regime overthrow initially failed for the same reason. It eventually succeeded because of covert tactics and starving them out. Is this what we want and who are we to Americanize the world? One last point, we must not prosecute the one who pulls the trigger, but those who ordered him to do so. There is a distinct difference between those who control and those who are controlled. Al

Some time back, I posted on another forum, the issue of missing ammunition and cleaning supplies for the Oswald rifle. I don't know if it has been touched on here, but feel it needs to be pointed out to those who support Oswald as a shooting in DP. The official findings found that Oswald was proficient with this rifle and had not only practiced with it but also fired at General Walker using it. If this is the case, then where is the cleaning supplies, such as rods, bore brushes, bore jags, solvents, oils, patches, etc., that he used to maintain the weapon and have it in the condition as it was found. The ammunition was packaged in boxes of 20. He supposedly fired one round at Walker, three at JFK and one live round was found in the chamber. That totals five with fifteen outstanding. Did he practice with fifteen and simply come to DP with four rounds remaining from the box? Where did he purchase the ammunition? The FBI was unable to track it down, even though there was limited retailers who sold the ammunition in the N.O. and Dallas area. Since he purchased the rifle and scope through mail order, why did he not purchase the hard to find ammo on the same order, as it was available through Klein's on the order form? Has Marina ever mentioned seeing cleaning supplies or ammunition for the rifle she claimed her husband practiced dry firing? Would Oswald take the time to dispose of the cleaning supplies and traces of ammuntion (extra bullets, box(es), etc.) when he left an easily traceable rifle at the scene of the crime? It was easily traceable as he supposedly carried his false ID at the time of his arrest, in the name of which it was purchased and shipped to the PO Box. Comments? Al

Wim, you and others cannot be that simple minded to believe this? He is supposedly firing on a crossing target, moving at varying speeds, firing a hand held scoped weapon and he is upset because he missed his point of aim by a few inches? So it just had to be that JFK's head was moved forward by a shot impact from the rear from the Dal-Tex that left his frontal lobe intact? And the icing on the cake for this portion of this moronic tale, how did Files know where his shot impacted? He saw the impact on a thirty yard shot that that the bullet was travelling at roughly 2400fps? The man must have no reflex nerve functions and the upper body of a gorilla. How did his shot enter the right temple and exit the right rear portion of the skull? It's obvious that Jimmy has done considerable reading, he has simply chosen the wrong authors to read. So the FBI should not challenge his credibility since he knows some organized crime figures and LE officers in the Chicago area? Now that does make him credible. Can you clear up for me when he was a hitman for the mob? I recall him talking about driving Chuckie and running guns to Louisiana from Illinois and in later years working in a chopshop for the mob. Just when was it that he was a hitman for them and why was he demoted to the status of chopshop worker? Was this before or after he drove the MM killers and was there an alien abduction in their somewhere? Files was poorly educated so he didn't know the difference between Missouri and Kansas because they border each other, even though he spent eight weeks there in Basic? And Dave Phillips chose to get him out of a psychiatric hospital to train Cubans because of his qualifications? And the mafia relied on him to be a part of the assassination of a President? I did my basic and intial AIT at Ft. McClelland which is some fifty miles from the Georgia border, but knew right away I was in Alabama. When I went to Ft. Benning, I knew right away I was in Georgia. When I was sent to Marathon, I knew immediately I was in Florida. And I am just an ignorant Iowan. And explain to me why Files refused to comment on other murders he was involved with because he feared for the safety of his children, yet he was willing to disclose details on the assassination of a president? Do you think for a moment that if Files was telling the truth, even a hint of what he was about to disclose would have found him cold in his cell at Statesville? Oh, I forgot, he is a tough guy who took out three black inmates who had shims and he used his bare hands to do it. Stop, my side is killing me from the laughter! Files couldn't even be credible on a soap opera watched by overweight housewives who believe that characters are real. Al

Wim, Just a few concerns here off the top of my head. Files could not remember if jump school was six or eight weeks? He mentions classroom and four jumps, but fails to mention the tower? He took "crash courses" in Chinese, Russian and Laotian during a six to eight week period? Dave Phillips recruited him out of a veterans hospital psych unit to train Cubans? Phillips didn't have access to stable qualified soldiers but had the authority to get him out of there? Files went from escorting a mob hitman and running guns and assassinating a president to working in a chop shop? Was the mob short on 17 year old Latinos at the time in the chop shops? Illinois was the closest source of weapons for the Louisina operation? Files was able to see Chuckie's bullet impact the back of Kennedy's head before he saw his impact the right front temple? Kennedy's head has a downward, not forward movement, at I believe Z311 and then the visible frontal impact reaction at Z314. That is three frames which are at 18fps which would put the seperation of the two at 1/6 of a second. And he detected this? And he saw his shot impact the right temple on a shot of 30yds? Anyone out there fire a scoped rifle at 30yds and see the bullet impact the target? Has Files heard of recoil and startle reaction of detonation? And why would Files need to have present his previous interview notes with West and documentation on the JFK Assassination if he was reporting on what he did? Files refused to comment on any other murders in fear of mob retribution on his children? Yet he is willing to go on record stating that the JFK Assassination was a mob contract? The more this man opens his mouth, the more he comes off as the washed up mobster looking for attention that he is. Thank Jimmy for the laughs. Al

I agree wholeheartedly. There was apparently a huge amount of time between the initial vollies and the later ones, during which time the limo driving was incompetent at best. Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim and Shanet, I have spent a great deal of time looking at the reactions and responses of the USSS in DP. Besides my background in Dignitary Protection, I have also worked on studies involving Action v. Reaction v. Response in Law Enforcement cases. The initial study done on this was by Professor Bill Lewinski of the University of Minnesota and an associate of the esteemed Caliber Press Training Program. I asisted Larry Hahn, who has authored text books for LE and for Caliber Press and who is also longtime instructor for the annual ASLET International Training Seminars, in breaking down the action v. reaction v. response with hands on experiments. What we found was that the average experienced LE officer will take between 1 and 1.5 seconds to react to a direct threat (generally a one-on-one situation) and then 1 to 1 1/2 times as much time as the reaction, to respond. This deals with issues of perception, processing what is seen and heard, and then subconscious planning and acting on response. The DP incident would even slow the reaction and response more as the threat would not be in a one-on-one sequence of events, the noise detection would be compromised by the sounds of the motorcade, the noise detection would be challenged by possible backfiring of the motorcycles and even nearly consistent with fireworks that were heard earlier, and lastly the fact that the motorcade has just exited a congested Main Street into a nearly vacant DP with the Stemmons ahead. The latter would subconsciously cause the agents to relax somewhat. In vieiwng the films and photos of the event, I was able to determine that if Hill reacted immediately to the first shot, as seen in Altgens 6 and which is comparable to Zapruder frame 217, taking into context his testimony that he turned to face the source of the shot and observed JFK clutching reaction as his view passed over the limo as he was looking back, and his reaching the limo at Zapruder Frame 327, the film travelling at 18fps, this would have taken roughly 5.5 seconds. Take away the 2 - 2.5 seconds it would have taken Hill to close on the moving limo from the follow-up car, his response time would have been roughly 3 to 3.5 seconds. This is even better than one would expect. If we use Altgens 6 and Zapruder 217 as a basis, Greer reacted slower to the audio stimulous than Hill, and his response was parallel in time as he accelerated when Hill reached the limo. His overall response would have been in the neighborhood of 5 seconds. Then consider his additional responsibility of driving the limo and focusing on the road ahead, the overpass and the crowds to his right front, it is still acceptable. There are other factos involved here also of a political nature that somewhat handicapped the response time of the agents. These were laid out by Kennedy's team in keeping agents off the limo as much as possible, the open limo and the route. These compromises were established for the sake of exposure to the people. Al

Shanet, I keep forgetting that I am relatively new here and that the majority of my posts have been on another forum. I do not challenge the fact that Greer did brake. Witnesses saw the brake lights. The speed of the limo dramatically decreased from the time of the first shot to the last. It is to understand the possible reasons why he consciously or subconsciouly applied the brakes is what is important. One consideration is that due to multiple shooters firing from multiple angles, it could have been confusing as to where the shots were originating. Even Kellerman referred to the "flurry of shots that entered the limo". Also consider that Greer was looking over his shoulder after hearing the initial shot(s) and hearing a possible commotion behind him in the passenger compartment of the limo. Is it logical to consider that he subconsciously applied the brakes when he took his eyes off the road and looked into the back of the limo? As much heat as Greer is getting for braking at this time, we must also consider this; By braking, the limo's conisistent speed of roughly 12mph was reduced and a pan on a moving object by the shooters became more difficult as to lead and timing of the shot. The slowing of the limo may very well have caused the north knoll shooter, who was firing at a crossing target, to have lead the target too much and missed. As far as the application of the brakes causing the forward movement of the passengers of the limo, it is not realistic IMO as the limo was originally moving at a mere 12mph and slowed to 5-7mph at the time of the headshot. It was not as if he slammed on the brakes. My article in the DP Echo in March of '03 details this considerably and also explains action v. reaction to explain the delay of response on the part of the USSS. If DPUK has no objection, I will send you the Word Document of the article that I submitted. Al

Al, Would removing a section of curb to facilitate going "straight down Main through DP" yet still getting over onto Stemmons have been unrealistic? Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, In hindsight it would sound reasonable maybe, but not so at the time. This would have taken considerable work to remove the island, post it to keep idiots from using it prior to the motorcade when the road was open, and then a crew to fill the island again. In dealing with it on a city government issue, they would likely to have had it approved through council reading. Considering the short period of time of setting the routes and the event, it would not have worked. In a recent visit by the President, I had a primary route approved where we travelled on a secondary thoroughfare that was mostly outlying residential for about a mile of the route. The advance agent in charge of the motorcade and route requested that it be posted on the one side that allowed parking along the curb as NO PARKING. I arranged for temporary signs placed using lathe board. This agent was not pleased with this as he saw as it a security issue where the spectators could pull them out and throw or strike the passing limo with them. I explained to him that permanent signs would require an ordenance approved by council which would take two weeks to pass after initial reading. We went with the lathe board posts. Al

Shanet, The problem I have with the issue of the limo braking causing JFK's head to go forward just prior to being thrown back, is that the brakes were not slammed on, and that no one other than Kellerman is reacting to this in this manner. Jackie is seated sideways without support of the seat and the Connally's are in jumpseats. JFK's forward movement just prior to being thrust backward has been explained by the breaking and also a miraculously timed rear headimpact with the frontal impact, as Fetzer's group and Files proclaims the latter. The simple reason for the frontal movement was discussed on Lancer some time ago and was posted by myself and Bill Miller several times. JFK's head was facing downward and to the left at the time of the headshot. Impact to the front of the head above the hairline would naturally initially drive his head downward before the trac of the energy would thrust him back. The downward push of the head is what we see as forward movement. Look closely at the head and you will see it going down, not forward. You can see this by the position of it to the backdrop (Jackie). Wim has an issue with a South Knoll/End atop underpass shot origin for the head shot because there is no evidence of an entry wound on the left side of JFK's head. He is correct that there was not an entrance wound on the left side of the head. JFK's head was facing left and downward and the right side of his head would have been partially exposed to the South shooter, allowing for impact to the right side of the head and a woundtrac that was only on the right side of the interior skull. A north knoll shot origin would not result in such a woundtrac. Al

It seems to me I read about a similar armory burglary in Texas within a couple of months prior to the JFK assassination. Does anyone know anything about that? Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, If I remember correctly, the main armory at Ft. Sam outside San Antonio was hit in October of '63 and then two Texas National Guard Armories were hit in November. I believe there was a death involved in one of the Guard Armory burlgaries. Al

Shanet, IMO, Which I base my experience and more so on the expertise of Sherry over at Lancer who is a Blood Stain Pattern Analyst and who is recognized here as a handful of experts in the field, no, it is not possible. Check out the Lancer forum on her postings and threads which show spatter issues of entry and exit. Bill Miller has also posted on several of these tests which show a fine narrow mist of blood and fluid at point of entry and a wide pattern of blood, fluid and debris at the point of exit. The rate of limo does not even configure with the rate of dispersion of the wound(s). Al

Wim: I have to take exception on this time line. I went into the National Guard when I was 14. (1952) However when they were going to upgrade my MOS to 1795; tank driver. I could not get past the screening and received an honorable minority discharge. I entered the US Army at 16 (1953) and when I was going to ship out to S/E Asia, in (1954) I could not go because I did not have enough credits or time in training to be able to go with the Unit I had trained with. I had to have a total of 16 weeks of training in addition to the eight weeks of basic at Fort Bliss Texas. I wanted to go into a 'Special Airborne school and I would have to have had an additional 24 weeks split in two 12 week TDY stations in the USA. That comes to: 48 weeks min. not counting the two weeks leave required between each duty assignment; add 6 weeks. That is a min. of 54 weeks of training and leave to even meet the min. for overseas duty in a special Army Unit like the White Star and others. In addition to those requirements your training scores had to be above average...in the 85 to 90 percent range and too, you had to be recommended by at least three drill Sgt and a base Commander. Most all those boys in those specialized units had completed at least one tour of active duty in a regular army unit. That is min one year in Reserves or National Guard, or two years in regular. The min. age for most of these boys was 20 years old and there were only a hand full of those; most were much older and had previous combat experience in Korea from the 1950-54 era. (serving in 1954-59) I think this time line should really be looked into. What is files MOS for the White Star Unit. What is Files Service Number. The sequencing of his service number would help a lot as certifying the year he was in the military. If he was in S/E Asia then he would remember those two numbers. "Name Rank S?N". That is drilled into you even while you sleep. Men from WWI and WWII have never forgot these numbers. I hope this helps. I am trying Hard to stay with FACTS. I am not challenging you or Files. I am trying hard to help on establishing facts which can be vertified. Its like my story. I do not expect anyone to believe me because I say it happened. I too, am trying hard to find FACTS and spacifics to support what I say.. When I find what I think is a 'tid bit' of fact or documentation, then I share it with the community. I think that is the professional approach as to establishing truth of what one says. If they do not believe me then I don't get mad. I just walk away and keep looking for spacifics and facts. I want the record to speak for me and I feel Files should also...if he is for real... Thanks for your understanding on this matter. Tosh <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tosh, So much of research is interpretation, trying to relate one issue to another, opinion, etc.. I was going to jump on this myself until I read what you posted above. You have said it far better than I could have. Hard to argue with facts. I believe the ball is still in Files court and I don't see him trying to volley in the near future. Once again, an excellent post that gets to the nitty gritty. Al

Checking with a supervisor before allowing the workers to remain atop the underpass is reminiscent of Roy Truly vouching for Oswald to the DPD before his getaway as a result of not securing the TSBD. These behaviors may have been benign, including the insecure basement of the DPD and the first live TV murder. Added together, there is a more malicious appearance. As for the press truck not being close by, what kind of luck would have Dave Powers' camera run out of film just prior to the killing? I'm not being snide in that; I certainly don't believe that Dave Powers was complicit in anything. It really is just bad luck, history's misfortune, that such a sequence of events transpired. But Oswald's murder? Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tim, These were three seperate incidents involving three seperate groups. Considering all that had to be contended with, the human factor and Murphy's Law, I don't see this as being conspiratorial. I have had my share of Malox moments when LE personnel failed to do there job as assigned, because of miscommunication, poor performance and other reasons. On one recent motorcade this year, my pilot car would have had to ram a vehicle who tried to converge into the motorcade if it wasn't for an advance unit that I notified just in time who was able to block them off. The officer assigned to the offramp from one highway to ours, misunderstood his posting and was not in place. The Scout car failed to see his absence. I had another unit on this same motorcade route that failed to shut down because his radio was on scan and my traffic to close down was cut off by radio traffic on another frequency. Al

Shanet and Ron, Then and now, LE along a motorcade route primary duty is for traffic and crowd control. They are to watch nearby buildings for threats, but to have to address open windows or even persons looking out open windows is not reasonable, other than if there is something that appears to be a threat. Agents and LE within the MC do scan crowds, buildings and intersections as they progress and each has an area of responsibility. Considering the buildings and crowds in Dallas, they had their hands full. Al

Shanet, I am not saying that the .221 could not have caused this wound, but I challenge the angle of trajectory more than I do the load. There is a rollover of energy through impact of resistant by penetrable material such as the skull that causes the bullet to roll inward as opposed to deflecting. A shot origin from the right would create damage to the left portion of the skull upon exit. Both Dr. Minkin and Pat Speers work was excellent. There are so many variables in recreating wounds and in order to have an inclusive database to satisfy all, the tests would have to be numerous with repeating all angle variations. I have yet to see data on recreation to accept a rear entry that would keep the frontal lobe intact. The energy dispersion through the path of the cavity would create considerable disruption both internally and externally. The x-rays do show this to a degree, yet none of the photos, films or witness accounts for this degree of trauma to the frontal lobe or orbitals that would be an obvious result, is there. I have opnions on Connally's wounds but they are not worth posting as there is still too many questions as to when the wounds actually occurred. Lancer has had ongoing discussions on this and several researchers make excellent arguements for different timeframes. I am confident however that the CE399 did not inflict the wound to the governor's wrist. This is rediculous from a wound ballistic standpoint and anyone who believes in it should try to repeat it in any form of recreation. CE399 is far to pristine to have caused this. Would appreciate hearing from John and Ryan on this also. Al

Tom, You make excellent points and I guess it would come down to if this played out to cover evidence of additional assasins by the planners or if the evidence logged was selectively chosen by those who covered it up, while the planners and operators would care less and even gladly leave evidence of multiple shooters, after the act. The issue I still have is relying on the quality of the weapon for such an operation and the less than quality ballistic and accuracy issues with this particular caliber. Thanks for the e-mail, sorry about not getting back to you. The info is greatly appreciated and I will try and hunt one of these down. Al