Mark Knight

From a 1964 FBI interview with Allen R. Felde, a former Marine enlistee with LHO, it was learned that Oswald took a cab with fellow Marines into "Tiajuana" [sic], and that he rode a bus with other marines into Los Angeles when they were on leave from Camp Pendleton. So Ozzie wasn't staying on base then. http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11624#relPageId=4 Nelson Delgado said in an interview that Oswald went to Tijuana with himself and several other marines in 1959 also. Oswald recommended a particular bar, and later they all found some girls and spent time [and money] to rent separate hotel rooms. Does that sound like a guy who spent all his free time on base hoarding his money? http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10797&search=Oswald_Marines#relPageId=3&tab=page

After Ozzie got "busted" by the USMC for possession of the unauthorized pistol, he was busted from a PFC to a basic private...an E-1. Here's the Navy pay chart for 1958-1962: https://www.navycs.com/charts/1958-military-pay-chart.html So basically Ozzie was making $83.20 a month from that point. From there, if he never spent another cent, he'd have take over 19 months to accumulate $1,600. His pay at the time of his enlistment was about the same: https://www.navycs.com/charts/1955-military-pay-chart. The Mosby interview occurred AFTER he entered the Soviet Union (13 Nov 1959), so Oswald might have told her ANYTHING. Because he TOLD Mosby he had saved the money does NOT mean he actually did save the money. He spent SOME money when he was going off base in Japan.... Mr. Trejo, I HAVE "shown you the money." Or at least how much he made while in the Marines. The odds are greatest that the $1,600 savings only existed in his claim to Mosby, and not here in the real world. [In 2016 dollars, that $1,600 from 1959 would be $13,270.27.]

That, indeed, was my point. If you are going to cite testimony--that to which one testifies--it MIGHT be a good thing to produce such testimony. A RUMOR that he had $1,600 is NOT "testimony." Nor is WC discussion of such a rumor. Again, I challenge Mr. Trejo: SHOW ME THE MONEY. Or the testimony, actually. Just Marguerite citing that a newspaper article said that Oswald had $1,600 is NOT evidence that Oswald ACTUALLY had $1,600. SHOW ME THE MONEY. According to Epstein, Oswald apparently spent considerable funds "socializing" while in Japan. How is that consistent with YOUR portrayal of Ozzie the miser who saved every penny? Either one account or the other is false. Oswald purchased a .22 when he was in Japan. When he was busted for the illegal possession of a weapon, he took a pay cut in addition to his reduction in rank. SHOW ME THE MONEY.

Mr. Trejo, I'm NOT saying you pulled the $1,600 figure from thin air. I'm just asking you to provide a source that this amount of money actually existed. You continue to state it as if it was a FACT, when, at this point, you haven't produced a source who can corroborate this so-called "fact." So...are you saying he TOLD a reporter he had $1,600? If so, didn't he also TELL the Soviet Embassy that the FBI was no longer interested in him in 1963? What part of what Oswald told others do we believe...and what part is embellishment? HOW do YOU decide which is which?

Mr. Trejo, you can put the dispute about Oswald's cash to bed by citing a reliable source for the $1,600 figure. Who might have had reason to KNOW THIS TO BE AN INDISPUTABLE FACT? I don't want to see that the WC "said" that Marguerite said it; I want to see WHERE Marguerite said this, IF indeed she said this. WHO WAS IN A POSITION TO KNOW? Mr. DiEugenio took us there; you steered us AWAY from direct evidence. SHOW ME THE MONEY, to borrow a famous movie quote. PROVE it actually existed...after Oswald's nighttime "excursions" to the bars in Japan, for example. Doesn't sound like he was all THAT frugal during his time in the service. SHOW us...don't just TELL us, and expect us to "believe" because it's YOU telling us.

As do I.

I'm re-reading the testimony of Ruth Paine to the WC. In it, she says that on Veterans Day. "...I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home." Apparently Paine claims that LHO was at her home the weekend of November 9-11: Mr. JENNER - Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed? Mrs. PAINE - Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau. Mr. JENNER - And some few small articles were purchased? Mrs. PAINE - That is right. Mr. JENNER - And you arrived home when--about noon? Mrs. PAINE - For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained, Marina, both at once. Mr. JENNER - What did he do that afternoon, if you recall? Mrs. PAINE - I don't recall. Mr. JENNER - Did he look at television? Mrs. PAINE - My guess is that he certainly looked at television. Mr. JENNER - Did you leave your home late that afternoon? Mrs. PAINE - I went to vote. This would be a trip of perhaps 20 minutes. Mr. JENNER - And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned? Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Mr. JENNER - Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - Either going to or from the driver's license bureau? Mrs. PAINE - No, we did not stop at a car dealers. Mr. JENNER - What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day? Mrs. PAINE - I think he could not have been. Mr. JENNER - Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day? Mrs. PAINE - It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time. Mr. JENNER - In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day. Mrs. PAINE - The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th? Mr. JENNER - Yes, please. Mrs. PAINE - It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon. Mr. JENNER - That is Sunday afternoon? Mrs. PAINE - On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City--I will add to that testimony here--I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around. Mr. JENNER - The two men were Lee Oswald and your husband? Mrs. PAINE - That is right Mr. JENNER - And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary. Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Mr. JENNER - And---- Mrs. PAINE - After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up. Mr. JENNER - You had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it? Mrs. PAINE - That's right. Mr. JENNER - And that was out in the open. Mrs. PAINE - That's right. Mr. JENNER - Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend? Mrs. PAINE - Yes. And again: Representative FORD - On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative? Mrs. PAINE - No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him--give Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened. Representative FORD - This was in October of 1963? Mrs. PAINE - October and November. I think the last lesson was November 10, being the last Sunday. Mr. DULLES - What progress did he make over that period? Mrs. PAINE - Considerable. Mr. DULLES - Reasonable progress? Mrs. PAINE - Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really began to understand the feeling of parking. Representative FORD - Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a driver's license? Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section. Mr. JENNER - I was about to go into that. Mr. DULLES - There was some testimony on that point, I believe. Mrs. PAINE - Yes. Representative FORD - Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering whether he mentioned it to you? Mr. DULLES - Got in line. Mrs. PAINE - Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in Texas. Mr. JENNER - This was the weekend he was home? Mrs. PAINE - This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last weekend he was home, don't call it home though. Mr. JENNER - I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your home? Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. Mr. JENNER - And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon? Mrs. PAINE - That is correct. Mr. JENNER - Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the course of events? Mrs. PAINE - Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there that is all of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak Cliff--when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we returned. The next weekend--- Mr. JENNER - Excuse me, before you reach that. Mrs. PAINE - Right. Mr. JENNER - Are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to Irving the previous afternoon? Mrs. PAINE - Certainly. Mr. JENNER - Perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a weekend in which Lee Harvey Oswald called from Dallas and said to Marina that he would not be in that Friday afternoon because he was going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come the next day? Could it be that this was that weekend? Mrs. PAINE - Well, he had already had 'a job that weekend, didn't he? So he wouldn't have been job hunting. I recall he was there in the morning, Saturday morning. Mr. JENNER - Looking for another job? Mrs. PAINE - Oh, Well, no. Mr. JENNER - You don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied with the job at the Texas School Book Depository? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - And was undertaking to look for another job? Mrs. PAINE - No. Mr. JENNER - There is no discussion? Mrs. PAINE - There is one Saturday that he came out later but that was still in October. It was the second weekend that he came out, altogether he came out on the weekend of the 4th, so he would have come out on October 12, Saturday. It doesn't check with my recollection. Mr. JENNER - So just to make sure, it is your present recollection that you can recall no occasion when you were advised by Marina or directly that Lee Harvey Oswald called and said he would not be in on that particular Friday but would come the next day? Mrs. PAINE - I would be quite certain it was not that weekend. It is possible that this happened, I don't recall any discussion, nor did I have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for a different job. Mr. JENNER - Never any discussion on that subject? Mrs. PAINE - Never. Just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, I will go on to the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but I---- Representative FORD - That would be the weekend of the 18th? Mrs. PAINE - Just prior to the assassination. The 16th I was having a birthday party for my little girl and said I couldn't possibly take him again to this place so he could take a test. But that he didn't need a car. This was news to him. He thought he needed a car for his initial test, learner's permit. I said he could go himself from Dallas. So Mrs. Payne TWICE testified that LHO WAS at her home in Irving on the weekend of November 9-11. And she testified that the birthday party was the following weekend, when LHO did NOT come to Irving.

OK, let's get serious about when the letter MAY have been mailed. Did the post office in Irving pick up mail from deposit boxes [such as the ones found outside post offices] on Sundays in 1963? IF NOT, since November 11th was Veterans Day and the Post office was closed, that letter could have been mailed in Irving anytime between Saturday evening November 9th after the last mail collection, and Tuesday morning November 12th. So if LHO was in Irving the entire weekend, he could have walked to the post office and mailed the letter anytime after Saturday evening. OR, if he was riding with Frazier, he could have even had Frazier take him past the Irving post office on Tuesday morning on their way to work. THAT is the framework we have to work with. The letter didn't necessarily have to be mailed during postal working hours on Tuesday the 12th.

Thanks, Chris!

If I recall the theory of the late Tom Purvis, he believed that the third shot from the TSBD was fired when the limo was at the Altgens location. According to his theory, JFK had already fallen forward in the seat, and the bullet tunneled upward from the hairline to the EOP, and exited the top of JFK's head. Where I disagreed with Purvis was... with Hill running toward the limo, there's no way such a shot came from the alleged "sniper's nest" in the southeast corner of the TSBD. If such a shot came from the TSBD, it must have come from the southwest window... negating the concept of a lone gunman. The survey work done in Dealy Plaza originally seemed to conform to this scenario. It was only in attempting to "prove" the SBT that this third shot at the Altgens location...simply disappeared. Chris Davidson, could you chime in here and make sure I'm correctly stating Purvis' theory?

At what point did Silvio Odio "agree" that Oswald's "accomplices...were taking Oswald from New Orleans to Mexico City"?? Please give me a citation where this was said by Odio. [If Sylvia Odio never said this, than your statement is misleading at best, and at worst a willful untruth.] Odio couldn't comment about the "[t]elephone impersonation of Oswald" because she had NO firsthand knowledge of it. But if it makes your theory work.....

Great stuff, Bart! The Bernabei material is amazing in his seeing something that it took the rest of us almost 40 years more to find.

Glad to hear of the alternate backups. I really hope this gets us back on track with the restoration.

Sad to hear of her passing.

In other words...the JURE ruse that you propose is simply.... CONJECTURE ...on your part. And you really have no idea that the purpose you stated was actually in play. Is that correct? A simple "yes" or "no" will do.

I still don't see it. IF the folks of JURE managed to get Oswald into Cuba, how is this yanqui' who speaks English and Russian, but LITTLE TO NO SPANISH, going to keep from drawing attention to himself in Cuba? I'm trying to connect the dots, and they just aren't there.

JURE, the Junta Revolucionaria Cubana, was an anti-Castro organization. How would LHO figure to get into Cuba by portraying himself as a member of an ANTI-CASTRO group, at the Mexico City embassy of Castro's Cuban government? If anything, JURE membership would likely get Oswald turned down for a visa so fast it would make him dizzy. So you're saying that a fake JURE membership would get Oswald SMUGGLED into Cuba? I daresay he could likely do that on his own, without resorting to joining what, if discovered by Castro's forces, would be incriminating political connections. Your argument fails the logic test, Mr. Trejo.

According to Wikipedia, the .22 Hornet was introduced in 1930. I'd therefore doubt the availability of black powder loads for that caliber.

Judith Very Unbelievable.

OK, you guys have been verbally abusing one another for awhile now. Prudhomme wants facts, such as the actual heights of the two men. Why does that place him out in never-never land? If you men want to debate the facts, this IS the place for that. If you simply want to swap insults, why not just PM each other until THAT gets tiresome?

As an administrator, I decided to let this thread continue because it seems we all needed a place to vent about current politics, and it CAN be tied, with varying degrees of success, to the JFK assassination. STILL, I think it would be better suited for the Controversial Issues discussion board...BUT...I'm not going to change course now. I'm NOT out to censor discussion; I merely ask, "Relevance?" MAYBE there is some.Or, if you're a LN, such as Mr. Von Pein, you see no connection to the Lone Nut who killed JFK, but you still wish to make the folks on this board your whipping boys for another round. Whatever works for you.

I understand the analogy, Cliff. But I'm not sure whether discussing this will further out understanding of the JFK assassination, other than proving the continuity of the next generation, if you will, of the assassination mindset.

Place your cursor to the left of the title of the thread you wish to view. In Chrome, there is a dot or button there. In IE, the button is invisible...BUT it still works.

As an administrator, I'm trying hard to justify allowing this thread to stand. I understand the emotions being expressed, and believe me, this election's results are a shock. But I struggle to tie this topic to the discussion of the assassination of JFK....which is, after all the purpose of this particular discussion board.

This should be a sufficient rebuttal, I would think, to anyone who believes that JFK's intention was to INCREASE the US military presence in Viet Nam [two words back then]. It probably WON'T be, but it SHOULD be.