Thomas Graves

Thanks, Ray. Excellent observation. Look at how the shirt's stripes line up identically in both photos. Note the same face (photographed in different "profiles," from different angles, and possibly with different focal-length lenses), too. It's Lovelady, as far as I'm concerned. -- Tommy

Dear Sandy, The combination of different days, different camera angles, different lighting, and different cameras can make the same person look different, especially when he's exhaling cigarette smoke in one photo but not in the other. Regarding Lovelady's hair, it looks like he needed a haircut on 11/22/63. Wouldn't surprise me if he got a haircut and took a shower and shaved, etc, for the FBI. Hey, Sandy. I'm not going to argue any more with you or Prudhomme on this. I'm personally convinced that Shelley and Lovelady were filmed walking down Elm Street Extension a few seconds after the assassination, and that at a certain point Shelley started crossing over towards the "island" while Lovelady started running towards the Parking Lot. You guys are free to believe any darn thing you want to. --Tommy bumped PS The question you and Prudhomme really ought to be asking yourselves is: "Who the heck is this guy, if not Billy Nolan Lovelady?" A 2012 post by Richard Hocking: Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:38 PM To followup on the TSBD employees who went to the Dallas Police Station:In CE 1381, the following men state they went and gave statements. Each one gave a time reference as to when they left the TSBD or when they arrived at the Station. Danny Arce: about 1:00 Jack Dougherty: Left at 1:30 Charles Givens: About and hour after the shooting [1:30] Billy Lovelady: 1:45 William Shelley: about 1:30 [mentions he saw LHO at the police station] BR Williams: shortly after 1:00 DPD Officer Senkel: Brown and I left the Texas School Book Depository with witnesses William Shelley, Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Garcia Arce. http://jfk.ci.dallas...15/1548-002.gif That leaves Lovelady, Givens and Dougherty presumably getting a lift from someone else. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note that the clock on the stand behind Lovelady says 2:02. [Chris Davidson gif] -- Tommy

Dear Sandy, The combination of different days, different camera angles, different lighting, and different cameras can make the same person look different, especially when he's exhaling cigarette smoke in one photo but not in the other. Regarding Lovelady's hair, it looks like he needed a haircut on 11/22/63. Wouldn't surprise me if he got a haircut and took a shower and shaved, etc, for the FBI. Hey, Sandy. I'm not going to argue any more with you or Prudhomme on this. I'm personally convinced that Shelley and Lovelady were filmed walking down Elm Street Extension a few seconds after the assassination, and that at a certain point Shelley started crossing over towards the "island" while Lovelady started running towards the Parking Lot. You guys are free to believe any darn thing you want to. --Tommy bumped PS The question you and Prudhomme really ought to be asking yourselves is: "Who the heck is this guy, if not Billy Nolan Lovelady?"

Dear Sandy, The combination of different days, different camera angles, different lighting, and different cameras can make the same person look different, especially when he's exhaling cigarette smoke in one photo but not in the other. Regarding Lovelady's hair, it looks like he needed a haircut on 11/22/63. Wouldn't surprise me if he got a haircut and took a shower and shaved, etc, for the FBI. Hey, Sandy. I'm not going to argue any more with you or Prudhomme on this. I'm personally convinced that Shelley and Lovelady were filmed walking down Elm Street Extension a few seconds after the assassination, and that at a certain point Shelley started crossing over towards the "island" while Lovelady started running towards the Parking Lot. You guys are free to believe any darn thing you want to. --Tommy

Howdy Bob, Just a little erratic spider-webbery "pattern," or a bold and easy-to-see, geometrical plaid on their faces, Bob? How could the "altering" of Lovelady's shirt have affected the people's faces, Bob? Did the magical incantations and the hoodoo chemicals the alterationist used get a little out of control?

Howdy Bob, If you really do accept the fact that Lovelady was wearing his red and white and black and grey plaid shirt on 11/22/63, then you should be able to admit to yourself that Lovelady was captured on film walking down Elm Street Extension just a few seconds after the assassination. Why? Because he was wearing the same darn shirt. When you see that distinctive shirt in and around Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, you know it's being worn by Billy Nolan Lovelady. -- Tommy I hate to keep raining on your parade, Thomas, but, what was Shelley wearing as he walked down the Elm St. extension? I don't think Shelley had a plaid jacket on that day but, doesn't he appear to be wearing plaid or checks in the stills in your post? BTW, have you found out how tall Shelley was yet? P.S. On closer examination, Shelley's and Lovelady's heads appear to be plaid or checked, as well. Half the people in these photos look to be plaid or checked. Howdy Bob! Why do you keep avoiding the subject of Billy Lovelady's bald spot and his distinctive plaid shirt in the photos Bart posted above, Bob? Do you think the bold geometric pattern of his shirt was photoshopped in, or that it's just the result of "photographic artifacts caused by the development process"? And look how "barrel chested" he is, too! Just like that smoking Neanderthal Dude (with the bald spot in exactly the same place!) who was captured on film while standing on the TSBD steps with Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce in the Martin and Hughes films! LOL -- Tommy

Dear Sandy, For your information, the "barrel-chested Neanderthal-looking" guy who was wearing a boldy-striped, reddish-colored plaid shirt on the front steps of the TSBD was smoking a cigarette, and was caught on film jutting his jaw out and exhaling smoke through his mouth, thereby distorting his face. I've never known a smoker whose forehead changes shape and ears grow when taking a drag on a cigarette. The guy who was caught on film with a bald spot on the top of his head and sitting in a chair while the police took Oswald past him was wearing the same shirt as the TSBD front-steps-cigarette-smoker, and, FWIW, had a pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket. Oh yeah, the other plaid-shirt wearing guy who looked like neither Lovelady nor the plaid-shirt wearing guy standing in front of the TSBD. I admit he could be Lovelady. But not the other guy. (He actually looks like a friend of mine.) Do you really think Fetzer - Cinque's "unidentified" smoking-and- plaid-shirt-wearing "Neanderthal Man" was taken to the Homicide and Robbery Department for questioning during that critical period of time on 11/22/63, or do you think it just might have been Billy Nolan Lovelady? Who was "Neanderthal Man," Sandy? And who was the guy sitting in the chair in the Homicide and Robbery Department watching LHO walk past him? I don't know. And most importantly of all, who was the guy with the bald spot and wearing the boldly-striped plaid shirt while walking down Elm Street Extension? Answer to all three, Sandy: Billy Nolan Lovelady. Lovelady said he wore a striped shirt that day. Not plaid. I consider this an unsettled issue. -- Tommy PS You can get a fleeting glimpse of the bald spot on the top-back part of "Neanderthal Man's" head at 01:41 of the Robert Hughes film: Dear Sandy, Please note the big central "notch" in Lovelady's receding hairline in the 1967 image of him on the left, and the 11/22/63 one on the right. BTW, do you think the FBI or the CIA went out and bought Lovelady that shirt sometime after the assassination? -- Tommy PS Here's another shot of Lovelady's bald spot. There are three male TSBD workers in this still from the Martin film: Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce (partially hidden), and Billy Lovelady.

I highly recommend it, Doug. That, and and John Newman's Oswald and the CIA and Bill Simpich's State Secret. -- Tommy

Dear Sandy, For your information, the "barrel-chested Neanderthal-looking" guy who was wearing a boldy-striped, reddish-colored plaid shirt on the front steps of the TSBD was smoking a cigarette, and was caught on film jutting his jaw out and exhaling smoke through his mouth, thereby distorting his face. The guy who was caught on film with a bald spot on the top of his head and sitting in a chair while the police took Oswald past him was wearing the same shirt as the TSBD front-steps-cigarette-smoker, and, FWIW, had a pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket. Do you really think Fetzer - Cinque's "unidentified" smoking-and- plaid-shirt-wearing "Neanderthal Man" was taken to the Homicide and Robbery Department for questioning during that critical period of time on 11/22/63, or do you think it just might have been Billy Nolan Lovelady? Who was "Neanderthal Man," Sandy? And who was the guy sitting in the chair in the Homicide and Robbery Department watching LHO walk past him? And most importantly of all, who was the guy with the bald spot and wearing the boldly-striped plaid shirt while walking down Elm Street Extension? Answer to all three, Sandy: Billy Nolan Lovelady. -- Tommy PS You can get a fleeting glimpse of the bald spot on the top-back part of "Neanderthal Man's" head at 01:41 of the Robert Hughes film:

Dan, Thanks for the discussion. Actually, given my Walker-did-it CT, I believe I can explain away the HSCA related deaths of Johnny Roselli and Santos Trafficante quite easily. They were in the Mafia. That was their first problem. Also, the CIA wanted Fidel Castro dead so badly that they stooped into the gutter for help. The CIA actually asked the Mafia to help assassinate Fidel Castro. Naturally, that had to be a State Secret for decades -- but it was also a big deal for the Mafia -- it upheld the Mafia Mythos. There was even a low-budget movie made of this era, portraying the Mafia as great patriots in the Cold War against Communism. The moral of the movie was, "for all their faults, they had their good side." The movie was a stinker. So, the Mafia continues to keep that Mythos alive today. People like James Files, for example, who spent several decades attempting to give the entire "credit" for the JFK assassination to Mafia superstar, Charles Nicoletti, feeds into this Mythos. It's a testosterone thing. Yet as Jim Garrison reportedly said, "The Mafia wouldn't have the guts or the power for this sort of thing." That is quite correct. I admit that Santos Trafficante, Sam Gianca and Carlos Marcello all donated millions to kill JFK -- but they didn't provide any hitmen. That was all left to professionals -- people with actual paramilitary experience. Some of the recipients of that money would include American soldiers of fortune, obviously -- people like Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, William Seymour, Frank Sturgis and so on. But most of that money was wasted. I admit the role of the CIA, Cuba and JFK in the entire Fidel Castro period -- it was the culture that led to the JFK assassination. But I really care about the Ground Crew. Some people say that we're close enough if we just admit there were more than three shots. I don't. I care about the Ground Crew. We have a few people who have already confessed (plausibly) to the JFK assassination. I don't count James Files. Here are the people I count: (1) Frank Sturgis (who really boasted about it) (2) Gerry Patrick Hemming (to A.J. Weberman) (3) David Morales (to Ruben Carbajal) (4) Howard Hunt (to his son on his deathbed) (5) Johnny Martino (to his son) (6) David Ferrie (to Jim Garrison) (7) Roscoe White (to his wife and son) (8) Lee Harvey Oswald (I'm just a patsy!) There are a few more, but these are the main ones that stand out. Notice than none of these are Mafia guys. I repeat -- the Mafia was involved in secret CIA plots to assassinate Fidel Castro. Their rules demand absolute secrecy, so that when Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli agreed to testify before the HSCA, they were shot dead on sheer principle. They didn't know squat about the JFK assassination, except that they had given this or that soldier of fortune lots of money. By the way, remember what Gerry Patrick Hemming told this very FORUM shortly before he died. The reason he refused to tell the whole Truth about the JFK assassination, is that he would have quickly been killed -- but not by the JFK plotters -- instead, he would have been killed by hit men working for people who only believed that the money they donated went to the actual JFK murder, and so they were paranoid of being named. See -- some of the swindlers who had taken money from rich people early in 1963 to kill JFK, and squandered the money, then went back to these "donors" after the JFK murder, and tried to blackmail them, saying, "You and I know that you donated money to kill JFK, and unless you give me more money, I'll tell the newspapers." Gerry Patrick Hemming said that there were already lots Mafia hits carried out to rub out these blackmailers. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, AFAIK, David Ferrie confessed to Jim Garrison only in the film JFK. -- Tommy

Howdy Bob, If you really do accept the fact that Lovelady was wearing his red and white and black and grey plaid shirt on 11/22/63, then you should be able to admit to yourself that Lovelady was captured on film walking down Elm Street Extension just a few seconds after the assassination. Why? Because he was wearing the same darn shirt. When you see that distinctive shirt in and around Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63, you know it's being worn by Billy Nolan Lovelady. -- Tommy

Howdy Bob, So either the FBI assumed incorrectly and brazenly put words in Lovelady's mouth, or Lovelady, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, remembered incorrectly. Didn't Lovelady, either before or after this FBI interview, identify himself in the Altgens 6 photo, Bob? When you look at a good enlargement of Altgens 6, does it look to you as though "Door Man" / Lovelady is wearing that bold red and white vertically-striped, short-sleeved shirt on that cool and blustery late-November day? Don't get all Cinqueish and Feltzerish on me now, Bob. What do you think Lovelady was wearing during the assassination, Bob? Why can't you accept the fact that that's Lovelady walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the Parking Lot, and that he starts running in that direction while Shelley starts crossing over the street towards the "island"? -- Tommy

Howdy Bob, It would appear, then, that the FBI either misunderstood Lovelady, or that they intentionally screwed it up. There's plenty of photographic evidence that Lovelady was wearing his red and white and black and grey plaid shirt on 11/22/63. (Note the pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket.) Sounds like the shirt Lovelady was wearing wasn't the only thing the FBI screwed up on. -- Tommy BTW, 170 lbs. or 160 lbs? Better check again, Bob. The question is, why would the FBI try to establish Lovelady was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt? Howdy Bob, Why always think so conspiratorially, Bob? The explanation I read is that Lovelady put on his favorite short-sleeved shirt the day the FBI came to his house to interview him, and the FBI assumed that it was the shirt he had worn on 11/22/63. Sorry for such a mundane explanation. -- Tommy

Howdy Bob, It would appear, then, that the FBI either misunderstood Lovelady, or that they intentionally screwed it up. There's plenty of photographic evidence that Lovelady was wearing his red and white and black and grey plaid shirt on 11/22/63. (Note the pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket.) Sounds like the shirt Lovelady was wearing wasn't the only thing the FBI screwed up on. -- Tommy BTW, 170 lbs. or 160 lbs? Better check again, Bob.

Howdy Bob, Gary Mack was mistaken, or Buell Wesley Frazier was mistaken? -- Tommy

Howdy, Bob! Who the heck told you Lovelady was 5' 8" ? Buell Wesley Frazier told Gary Mack that Lovelady was only about 5' 4". Gary: Lee was about 5’9” or so [5' 9.5"]. How tall was Billy [Lovelady]? Buell: I don’t actually know how tall he was, but I would probably say Billy was probably maybe in the 5’2”/5’3” area. And I’m not sure about whether that’s correct or not, but I… maybe 5’4” at the most probably. http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5647.125;wap2 While we're at it, Bob, would you like to comment on the distinctive shirt Lovelady's wearing in the photos Bart posted, above? Or do you think that guy isn't Lovelady at all, but Ralph Cinque's / Jim Fetzer's "Neanderthal Man," instead (who is visible blowing cigarette smoke out of his mouth on the front steps of the TSBD several minutes after the assassination in the Hughes and Martin films, and also visible sitting in a chair in the police department, watching them bring Oswald in right past him). And that it's just a coincidence that Lovelady and "Neanderthal Man" were wearing the same exact shirt? LOL ! -- Tommy

Sandy, If that's the case, shouldn't we see a brim in the front, as well? Or do you think he's wearing a baseball cap backwards, like Cheap Trick? Gerda Dunckel gif https://youtu.be/OL1PrKDumd4 -- Tommy

Bart, Didn't you already post these images? -- Tommy Never mind, I see they are larger, and we can now make out the plaid pattern on LL's shirt. And the bald spot on top of his head!!! Doesn't the Bill Shelley character in Bart's photo appear to be wearing a hat? I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of Shelley wearing a hat. P.S. Tommy, do you believe that Lovelady is also crossing the road at an angle, like Shelley is? I thought that he continued on a straight course and that is how we can see that Shelley veered to the left. (BTW, I believe that Lovelady is walking right next to the sidewalk, and takes one step up on it and then immediately down off of it again. Because his head pops up for just that moment.) A hat? Nope. Well that's a neat trick. Stop the motion of the video and make the picture so clear that we can see one guy's bald spot and the other guy's hat. Conclude that one guy has a bald spot. Then revert to the blurry video running at a high speed where we can see neither the bald spot nor the hat. Conclude that the other guy doesn't have a hat. Talk about a double standard! P.S. I'm not saying that the Shelley character definitely has a hat. I'm saying that you're using an unfair method to prove what you believe. Anyone who thinks Shelley is wearing a hat is mistaking his exaggerated Edd "Kookie" Byrnes hairstyle for a hat. -- Tommy PS It's interesting how none of the detractors want to comment on Lovelady's distinctive shirt.

Howdy, Bob! Well. if Shelley was so much taller than Lovelady, I don't suppose he could have been walking in the street while Lovelady was walking on the sidewalk? Regardless, do you think Lovelady's distinctive shirt and bald spot on the top / rear of his head were photoshopped in Gerda's GIF, or maybe even "kinda fudged in" by the bad guys back in '63 - '64? -- Tommy

Hi Bob!, Just curious -- What does it matter? If it's really important, I might be able to find out for you... Your buddy, -- Tommy Let me guess. You don't think that's Shelly walking with Lovelady, right?

Hi Bob!, Just curious -- What does it matter? If it's really important, I might be able to find out for you... Your buddy, -- Tommy

Bart, Didn't you already post these images? -- Tommy Never mind, I see they are larger, and we can now make out the plaid pattern on LL's shirt. And the bald spot on top of his head!!! Seems to me I tried to point out LL's plaid shirt and Shelly's white collar in this clip about a year ago, to no avail. So, thanks for vindicating me, Bart! Yep. Post #58 this thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22197&page=4&hl=%2Bcollar+%2Bextension+%2Btommy#entry313803 Here they are, crossing Elm Street Extension diagonally and heading towards the "island." Note Running Woman (or Marion Baker?) passing out of the frame, to the right. -- Tommy Doesn't the Bill Shelley character in Bart's photo appear to be wearing a hat? I don't believe I've ever seen a photo of Shelley wearing a hat. P.S. Tommy, do you believe that Lovelady is also crossing the road at an angle, like Shelley is? I thought that he continued on a straight course and that is how we can see that Shelley veered to the left. (BTW, I believe that Lovelady is walking right next to the sidewalk, and takes one step up on it and then immediately down off of it again. Because his head pops up for just that moment.) Sandy, I rather like that idea. -- Tommy PS Shelley's hair stood up a lot in the front because he combed it straight back. Also, he was walking fast and the "wind" is holding it up, IMHO.

Only because someone tried to connect LHO to him. -- Tommy Tommy, Yes, that's the main point. Bill Simpich scientifically showed that somebody had impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald at the Mexico City Cuban Consulate one day after Oswald had left Mexico. (?) That person (who was probably David Morales, says Simpich) used the most wire-tapped phone on earth to call the USSR Embassy, and claimed to be Lee Harvey Oswald, and asked to speak with KGB Agent Valerie Kostikov. Now -- that fact was a deep, deep secret, known only to the CIA high-command. As Bill Simpich relates the account, the CIA high-command realized that this was not Oswald, and that it had to be a mole. This was proved by Bill Simpich by a careful analysis of CIA documents, showing a clear, top-secret CIA Mole-Hunt had begun in September 1963. This is the summary of Simpich's free eBook, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014). Yet James Hosty had claimed that he himself had knowledge of Kostikov during 1963, and to him, this proved that Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald were Communists. Well -- that is exactly what the JFK Killers wanted all of America to believe, according to Dr. Jeff Caufield in his recent, 900-page book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015). Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, An Oswald impostor, speaking bad Russian, called the M.C. Soviet Consulate on Tuesday, October 1. Oswald left Mexico City the next morning, Wednesday, October 2, and arrived at the border in Laredo around 1:30 am, October 3. -- Tommy

Only because someone tried to connect LHO to him. -- Tommy

Shouldn't this be moved to another part of the EF? -- Tommy