Thomas Graves

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=67811&relPageId=2 Marina's story is that she used to visit a female friend who was living in the same apartment building as was, evidently, Webster. Does the "Apt. 18" show up in her address book, or only the street address? -- Tommy

Excellent question. Paul. The scar was reported to be on and above the left eyebrow of a Hispanic-looking guy in both cases. Just like David Sanchez Morales. Probably just a coincidence, though. LOL -- Tommy

Yes, Craig. There was. Exactly one week later, on August 16, 1963. There were no arrests at that one, just TV coverage. -- Tommy

Paul, IMO, the term "unwitting asset" says it all. Joe Bauer has raised some interesting questions. Attempting to answer his questions may help clarify this rather complicated affair. As I see it, Oswald never knew or had any direct contact with any CIA "officials". His journey most likely began with ONI while in the Marine Corp.This assertion is corroborated by others who came into contact with Oswald both before and during his rather ambiguous defection which was most likely nothing more than an assignment, (dangle). Nothing overly complicated was expected of Oswald during this period, and in fact Oswald did little other than report to work in Minsk, and spent his spare time chasing the local girls. He never showed the slightest interest in attending communist party meetings, which he had the opportunity to do. Quite strange for someone with such a strong ideological POV. Some key facts to keep in mind are: Oswald never renounced his American citizenship. Secondly, anyone who wished to hand classified information over to the Soviets would never have told the U.S. embassy this beforehand. Gerry Hemming, a well known and acknowledged former CIA asset, described meeting Oswalfd prior to his discharge from the USMC. Hemming believed Oswald had been briefed by ONI prior to his discharge. During an interveiw for the documentary, The Killing of President Kennedy, Hemming stated, "I thought Oswald had been breifed". By whom? Hemming: "ONI" Why? Hemming: "Because of the types of questions he was asking, and his obvious knowledge of my background". Even the U.S. Consul in Moscow later wrote in an internal report that, "It appeared that Oswald may have been coached by someone or others...", "... he seemed to be using words he had learned, but did not fully understand...". To directly answer Joe's question about "compensation", I would say that Oswald was never on the CIA's payroll. Nor was Oswald's relationship with the intelligence community on a "quid pro quo" basis. That is not to say that Oswald was never rewarded for his actions. We must remember that it was George DeMohrenshildt, another figure with indirect ties to the CIA through French intelligence prior to and during WWII, who was able to get Oswald, a known "defector", a good job with a government contractor handling sensitive, classified, photographic materials. Quite a accomplishment to say the least. It was Oswald's flawed personality that cast him and his family into poverty. He had opportunities, but rather than settle in and wait, I believe that Oswald found favor in the type of work/lifestyle that his outspoken politics could generate. Looking at the world we lived in in 1963 there were many avenues one could pursue, and amazingly Oswald appears on the scene almost on cue. Oswald's failure at Jagger-Chiles-Stovall was probably not only a disappointment for Oswald, but for those interested in him. But by now there had to have been enough interest to go around. Enter the FBI. There is evidence to suggest that Oswald was on their payroll, even though it would appear to have been little more than enough to cover expenses, ($200-$250/month). This was most likely concerning Oswald's stay in New Orleans where he spent much of his time in an adjacent office to former FBI agent Guy Banister, and just a short walk to the ONI. In fact, Oswald was fired from his job in New Orleans for spending too much time hanging around a garage where the Secret Service and other government offices there had their cars serviced. And what was Oswald's great accomplishment while in New Orleans... television and radio appearances. More specifically a televised incident involving an altercation between he and anti-Castro Cubans outside the International Trade Mart. And again a radio interview following the altercation where a rattled Oswald made an unintentional revelation. When asked repeatedly about his defection to the Soviet Union Oswald answered, "... at no time was I ever without the protection of the U.S. government...". A statement he immediately attempted to reword. Another key fact to remember is that following Oswald's arrest in New Orleans, rather than pay a small fine and be released, Oswald requested an interview with the FBI and opted to spend the night in jail. Both these requests were granted. Much has been made of Oswald's trip to Mexico City. I see it as Oswald's end game, or at least what he believed should have been his end game. All of these subjects I have discussed here in this post, IMO, amounted to nothing less than a resume, (including his attempt on the life of Edwin Walker), carefully engineered and manipulated by the government and carried out by Oswald ultimately for the purpose of getting him into Cuba. This is were the government lied to Oswald, and this is when Oswald's attitude towards the government really began to sour. One last key issue... initially Oswald's anger had been roused by the government's decision to change his honorable discharge to dishonorable. In fact, he wrote former Secretary of the Navy John Connally regarding this issue not knowing that Connally had already resigned that post. Regards, Craig C. Dear Craig, LHO's altercation with the anti-Castro Cubans on August 9, 1963, wasn't outside the International Trade Mart, but two or three blocks away in the 700 block of Canal Street. http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_2895.pdf -- Tommy

I wonder if Wikileaks will ever give us any of Paul Manafort's e-mails? -- Tommy

Paul. IDK. But let me ask you. If it were true, would you expect to find "supporting evidence" for Webster's claim? You do know that Marina allegedly told a friend of hers that her American husband had worked for an American exhibition in Moscow in 1959, don't you? But also that he worked in some kind of factory in Minsk? And that Webster told Dick Russell in 1997 that he had met Marina in Russia in 1959, and that she spoke Russian pretty well at that time? I'm starting to wonder, though, whether Marina didn't meet Webster, and that LHO lied to her when they first met and said he had worked at an American exhibition in Moscow, thereby reinforcing the CIA's "marked card" operation which intentionally mixed and merged Webster's identity with Oswald's. And that Marina believed him. Regardless, so that you can do your own "research" in the future on questions like this, here are a few hints: Google Search: webster moscow exhibition marina . That will take you to Simpich's State Secret Chapter 1, and all the other websites that talk about this very issue. Once on Simpich's Chapter 1, press F and ctrl at the same time and type the word "exhibition" in the little drop-down search box. (Doing so will highlight the word "exhibition" in the text for you, making that subject or issue very easy to find in the longish text.) There. See how easy it is? Just think! You, too, can be a "researcher," Paul! -- Tommy ' she spoke Russian pretty well at that time." I reckon that's a pretty good assumption, Tommy. I was wondering if you'd catch that, Ray. You passed that test with flying colors! Thanks for not sending me a discrete PM informing me of your incredible powers of observation. You've really "made your bones" here on the EF. Now we're actually thinking about inviting you to Camp Perry for the indoctrination program. -- Tommy PS I obviously meant to say "Mandarin Chinese."

Paul. IDK. But let me ask you. If it were true, would you expect to find "supporting evidence" for Webster's claim? You do know that Marina allegedly told a friend of hers that her American husband had worked for an American exhibition in Moscow in 1959, don't you? But also that he worked in some kind of factory in Minsk? And that Webster told Dick Russell in 1997 that he had met Marina in Russia in 1959, and that she spoke Russian "Mandarin Chinese" pretty well at that time? I'm starting to wonder, though, whether Marina didn't meet Webster, and that LHO lied to her when they first met and said he had worked at an American exhibition in Moscow, thereby reinforcing the CIA's "marked card" operation which intentionally mixed and merged Webster's identity with Oswald's. And that Marina believed him. Regardless, so that you can do your own "research" in the future on questions like this, here are a few hints: Google Search: webster moscow exhibition marina . That will take you to Simpich's State Secret Chapter 1, and all the other websites that talk about this very issue. Once on Simpich's Chapter 1, press F and ctrl at the same time and type the word "exhibition" in the little drop-down search box. (Doing so will highlight the word "exhibition" in the text for you, making that subject or issue very easy to find in the longish text.) There. See how easy it is? Just think! You, too, can be a "researcher," Paul! -- Tommy

Dear Jim, Not sure which photo you tried to post because they don't "show up." Did you test the link [WebsterandOswald.jpg?dl=0] after you posted it here? -- Tommy PS -- I don't remember saying "uncanny resemblance," but maybe I did. One of the problems for the research community over the years is the fact that John Armstrong misinterpreted the incorrect descriptions of Lee Harvey Oswald that were intentionally put in "marked cards" to catch "Popov's Mole" (starting in early 1960), and the Mexico City Impersonator (starting in October, 1963). Armstrong evidently thought these different descriptions of Oswald in the government's documents indicated that there had been more than one Oswald running around from at least when LHO "defected" to the U.S.S.R. in late 1959. Dear Jim, To answer your question, I guess Webster and LHO looked sufficiently alike for Marina to confuse them in her memory. And for the CIA to base a big-time "marked card" operation upon them. -- Tommy

Dear Jim, Not sure which photo you tried to post because they don't "show up." Did you test the link [WebsterandOswald.jpg?dl=0] after you posted it here? -- Tommy PS -- I don't remember saying "uncanny resemblance," but maybe I did. One of the problems for the research community over the years is the fact that John Armstrong misinterpreted the incorrect descriptions of Lee Harvey Oswald that were intentionally put in "marked cards" to catch "Popov's Mole" (starting in 1960), and the Mexico City Impersonator (starting in October, 1963). Armstrong evidently thought these different (and false) descriptions of Oswald indicated that there was more than one Oswald running around ever since LHO "defected" to the U.S.S.R.

Bart, Robert Prudhomme will be sorely disappointed. -- Tommy

Bart, Didn't you already post these images? -- Tommy Never mind, I see they are larger, and we can now make out the plaid pattern on LL's shirt. And the bald spot on top of his head!!! Seems to me I tried to point out LL's plaid shirt and Shelly's white collar in this clip about a year ago, to no avail. So, thanks for vindicating me, Bart! Yep. Post #58 this thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22197&page=4&hl=%2Bcollar+%2Bextension+%2Btommy#entry313803 Here they are, crossing Elm Street Extension diagonally and heading towards the "island." Note Running Woman (or Marion Baker?) passing out of the frame, to the right. -- Tommy

Dear Jim, The real significance of the two ONI documents you posted is that they have a couple of intentional "marked card" / "barium meal" inaccuracies. Can you spot them? Bear in mind that about two weeks before these documents were written, a U.S. spy, GRU Colonel Popov, had been arrested in Moscow, and that Oswald had (coincidentally?) shown up in Moscow on the very same day. Also bear in mind that Robert E. Webster, who facially resembled Oswald, was already there, and renounced his US citizenship in Consul Richard Snyder's office two weeks before Oswald tried to do the same. -- Tommy

They couldn't be from the Moon, though, because the Moon is made out of green cheese. -- Tommy

Douglas, I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for the head's up. -- Tommy Oh, I just realized it already happened. -- Tommy

Douglas, I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for the head's up. -- Tommy

Paul, I don't buy the CIA's excuse that their camera was broken that day or those days. After the fall of the Iron Curtain, at least one of the Russians who dealt with Oswald on Saturday, September 28, said when LHO left the Embassy / Consulate, he pulled his jacket up over his head to hide himself from any secret cameras. Winn Scott is said to have had photos of Oswald entering / leaving an Embassy / Consulate in his personal safe in Mexico City. If true, it wouldn't surprise me if Angleton ended up with those. It would be "interesting," indeed, if it turned out that Morales accompanied LHO in Mexico. I guess all we can do is speculate about that right now. -- Tommy

Paul, I don't know what the impersonators were trying to accomplish in the "incoherent" Saturday, September 28 phone call. "To trick someone into giving up their identity"? Or, maybe just to "show their hand"? Whom? (Oswald? Kostikov? Someone else?) How? -- Tommy

Thanks, Bart. What's interesting is that in a fragmentary bit of Couch or Darnell (I have a hard time keeping track of them), we can see Shelly and Lovelady, after Running Woman has passed them and they have passed the "geometrical artwork" of the TSBD side gate, starting to cross over Elm Street Extension towards the "island." -- Tommy

Dear Bart, Pray tell, counting from left to right, which one of the 13 pages is the misdemeanor on? It would take me a good 10 minutes to "open" all of the rather boring 1969 ones to find it. -- Tommy

Yes, Jim. The Mexico City Mole Hunt was necessitated by the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald (and Cubn Consulate secretary Slyvia Duran) were impersonated in an improbable Saturday September 28, 1963, telephone call from the Cuban Consulate to the Russian Embassy in which a man who was identified by pseudo-Duran as "an American" said he had visited the Russian Embassy earlier that day, and not much else. This same man later identified himself as "Oswald" in an October 2 call to the Russian Embassy (and maybe even the day before, in a call whose transcript is now mysteriously missing). On October 10, two weeks after the original call, the Mexico City CIA Station and CIA Headquarters finally mounted separate-but-coordinated "marked card" operations to try to catch the perpetrator(s) of the ostensibly information-seeking ruse. Since the impersonator had identified himself as "Oswald" on October 2, the above-mentioned "marked cards" involved the same man who really was trying to get a Russian visa in Mexico City and who, ironically (?), had been involved in a "Popov's Mole" marked-card operation three years earlier in the USSR -- Lee Harvey Oswald -- and also, by implication, his 1960 "marked card" look-alike and fellow false-defector, the then thirty-one year old, 5'10", 165-pound, dark-blonde-haired, blue-eyed Robert E. Webster. -- Tommy

FWIW, Bill Simpich thinks the conflated descriptions of look-alike "defectors" Lee Harvey Oswald (approx. 135 pound, 20-year-old, Marine) and Robert E. Webster (165 pound, 31 year-old, ex Air Force) were used by the CIA to try to uncover "Popov's Mole." The theory is that the physical descriptions of the two men were mixed and merged in counter-intelligence "marked cards." Oswald was given Webster-like physical attributes in a report https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6665&relPageId=8 by Fort Worth FBI agent John Fain, who interviewed Marguerite Oswald in early May, 1960, about six months after LHO had defected to the USSR, and Fain wrote the report as though she had described her son as being 5'10" tall (he was 5'9.5"), having blue eyes and light-brown wavy hair, and weighing a whopping 165 pounds. This report was forwarded to CIA's Russia division, and integrated into the CIA's files on LHO. All of which could help explain why at 12:44 pm on 11/22/63, Dallas Police Officer J. Herbert Sawyer broadcast a description of the yet-unnamed "suspected assassin" as being a very Webster-like "about 30, 5' 10", 165 pounds," having probably been (unintentionally?) fed that "marked card" mis-information about Oswald by local Army Intel. https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html -- Tommy

Bart, Which, if any, of those 13 documents has to do with his 1960 criminal record? (They are very slow to "open" on my computer.) All I see is 1969. Is his 1960 problem only mentioned in one of them? -- Tommy

Dear Paul, Welcome to the rabbit hole. -- Tommy PS So now you're going to become a Harvey and Lee and Henry devotee? Bear in mind that LHO was only about 20 years old when he moved to the USSR. -- Tommy The so-called Harvey & Lee theory was one of the great disappointments from an otherwise great CT analyst, Jack White. Jack made some great observations about the BYP, and then he tried to extend that indefinitely -- and beyond his expertise. What got Jack White started was that the USSR made photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald using a "plausible denial" technique, which consists of taking a normal photograph, and reversing the left side of the fact onto the right side. A completely different photo could be made by reversing the right side of the face onto the left side. This makes a photograph that is undeniably the person photographed, but notice that the two results (the two lefts and the two rights) look like two different people! Try it on your own photograph, and you can see the dramatic difference. People regularly assume that the two sides of their face match -- but most of us really don't match very well -- all faces are slightly lopsided. Anyway -- add these truly Fake photographs of LHO in with the regular photos of LHO at different ages in his life -- which are vastly different, as they are for everybody. To see this in action, just find photographs of Judy Garland as a teenager with Judy Garland in her twenties. Different people? Then add the regular photos of an individual from cheap cameras compared with professional cameras -- where the individual also looks vastly different. Then add photos that are posed along with surprise photos. Then add photos when one is dressed up, and photos when one needs a bath -- and Jack White tried to make the case that there were many different Oswalds -- and at least two in a CIA super-plot which began with LHO's childhood. This disappointment came from the brilliant guy who correctly identified Roscoe White's body in the BYP. Regards, --Paul Trejo [Jack White was] the brilliant guy who correctly identified Roscoe White's body in the BYP. -- Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Other than the one photograph (which was developed and printed in May, 1959, after LHO had returned to the U.S.) of the bumpy-wristed Marine who somewhat resembled Roscoe White (except, of course, for the too-wide chin and the too-large ears), do you have any other "proof" that Lee Harvey Oswald and Roscoe White were at Atsugi at the same time? -- Tommy

Dear Paul, http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=5469.0;wap2 Google Search terms: parkland kantor ruby pm "About 13,300 results" -- Tommy

Dear Jim, Syria? Really? Or is it more likely that Liberty was monitoring the massing of Israeli soldiers and tanks, etc, as Israel prepared to secretly invade Sinai, the Golan Heights (Syria), and that Israel was afraid Liberty's transmissions would be intercepted by the Soviets and forwarded to the Egyptians. -- Tommy (edited 10/12/16)