Thomas Graves

Hey Bob. I figure if we get one of those we'll be able to see two Marion Bakers running like madmen down the street to talk with four policemen on on the corner. (Just trying to interject a little humor here, folks.) -- Tommy

Tommy, I never claimed I had a proof -- but my dialectics remain rational. The evidence is there, and demands further research. As for proofs about Atsugi -- again, I rely on Jack White, who was usually brilliant, ahead of his time (and only slipped up with his ridiculous "Harvey & Lee" theory). My open question is whether Jack White was any relation to Roscoe White. Anybody know? Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, I see. So you have no actual proof that Roscoe White and Lee Harvey Oswald were at Atsugi at the same time. Except for Jack White's belief that they were, which in turn was based on a photograph of a Marine with a chin wider than Roscoe's, and bigger ears, too. Carry on. -- Tommy Bumped for Paul Trejo.

Dear Paul, Welcome to the rabbit hole. -- Tommy PS So now you're going to become a Harvey and Lee and Henry devotee? Bear in mind that LHO was only about 20 years old when he moved to the USSR. -- Tommy

De Dear Paul, Welcome to the rabbit hole. -- Tommy PS So now you're going to become a Harvey and Lee and Henry devotee?

Do you seriously expect us to believe that Ruby's gunrunning activities to Cuba went unnoticed by the CIA? Will your CIA excuse du jour involve total incompetence or something different? Why was Jack Ruby protected by the CIA? Not only was Ruby instrumental in getting Trafficante out of jail, he also tried to get Jake Lansky released. Everyone knows how the CIA and the Mob worked together in those Good Ole Days! Why did Jack Ruby communicate so often, even on the very day of the assassination, with David Atlee Phillips' close friend Gordon McLendon? Maybe Ruby wasn't working with / informing to the CIA per se, but the FBN, instead? -- Tommy

Tommy, I never claimed I had a proof -- but my dialectics remain rational. The evidence is there, and demands further research. As for proofs about Atsugi -- again, I rely on Jack White, who was usually brilliant, ahead of his time (and only slipped up with his ridiculous "Harvey & Lee" theory). My open question is whether Jack White was any relation to Roscoe White. Anybody know? Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, I see. So you have no actual proof that Roscoe White and Lee Harvey Oswald were at Atsugi at the same time. Except for Jack White's belief that they were, which in turn was based on a photograph of a Marine with a chin wider than Roscoe's, and bigger ears, too. Carry on. -- Tommy

Tommy, My only evidence is the theory of Jack White, who posted this photograph and others, to show that the chin, the neck, the shoulders, the back-leaning stance, and the lumpy right wrist -- are consistent with Roscoe White's photographs, and inconsistent with LHO's photographs. The question becomes -- what in the world links Roscoe White to LHO so that anybody would even think to examine Roscoe's photos in the first place? I find several points of connection -- some from Jack White, and some from other contributors: (1) Roscoe White was at Atsugi at the same time that LHO was at Atsugi (2) Roscoe White's picture appears in some of LHO's Marine photographs (3) Roscoe White's wife, Geneva, worked for Jack Ruby at one time. (4) Ron Lewis (1993) says that he saw Roscoe White in New Orleans in the context of 544 Camp Street. (5) Ron Lewis also says that LHO told him, personally, that Roscoe White was going to be the JFK shooter. (6) Roscoe White joined the Dallas Police Force on October 7, 1963 -- the same day that LHO returned from Mexico City. (7) Roscoe White, according to his son, Ricky White, confessed to being part of the JFK assassination plot. Adding all these up, it makes sense to me that Roscoe White had interaction with LHO in 1963, although the details are still unclear. Roscoe White also confessed (to his son and wife) that he was also present at the shooting of J.D. Tippit. It seems to me that Roscoe White was an Anticommunist and a follower of LHO in April 1963, when he believed that LHO was capable of infiltrating the Communists. That was why Roscoe participated in creating the BYP at LHO's request. LHO created the BYP's at his employer's, Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, which had superior camera equipment, at the same time he created the Alek J. Hidell fake ID. However, when LHO tried to assassinate General Walker, at the urging of George DeMohrenschildt, Roscoe White abandoned LHO, and instead joined General Walker and Guy Banister at 544 Camp Street to ensure that LHO paid the ultimate price. Roscoe White was one of the key people who transformed LHO into the JFK Patsy. Roscoe, like General Walker, will one day go down in US History like John Wilkes Booth. Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, Circular reasoning. You need to get back to the good old Dialectical Method. -- Tommy BTW, Can you prove that Roscoe White was at Atsugi at the same time LHO was at Atsugi?

And there was a Yurily Mikhaylov, too. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111183&relPageId=228&search=aksenov_prusakova

It seems to me that LHO was used by intelligence, but not necessarily one of them. There is ample evidence that his movements were tracked by both sides. I think Nosenko was correct in saying that the Soviets realized LHO was unstable and would not make a good spy. According to Mr. Hosty, LHO was not smart enough to be a spy, but he seemed convinced Marina was a sleeper agent. Interesting about Hosty seemingly being convinced that Marina was a sleeper agent. Wasn't Marina's father tied into russian intelligence/KGB? Her uncle, Ilya Vasilyevich Prusakov, was a colonel in the MVD, a predecessor of the KGB. He is apparently identified as "MVD Colonel Nikolay Aksenov" in this newspaper article: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Taylor%20Henry%20J/Item%2006.pdf https://books.google.com/books?id=rFE7nTO-iLcC&pg=PR11&dq=Col.+Ilya+Vasilyevich+Prusakov&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8vaexl9HPAhVL52MKHaxqCpMQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Col.%20Ilya%20Vasilyevich%20Prusakov&f=false -- Tommy PS He was apparently misidentified as "her uncle Vasili Khritinin" in this Life article. https://books.google.com/books?id=mkEEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=khritinin+marina+oswald&source=bl&ots=duyyHWNs3s&sig=C8fSvrN6MMwCAr2dCYInwhItJxc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGpJPbmtHPAhUE5mMKHSbVDEYQ6AEISDAJ#v=onepage&q=khritinin%20marina%20oswald&f=false

Sandy, I like your proof of forgery by the stairway shadows compared with other shadows. Your theory of a tripod is interesting -- yet it also seems incompatible with Marina's testimony. Your theory finds three separate photos -- but there had to be a fourth -- that is, there had to be a photo with Oswald's face as well. My main challenge to your theory is that Marina was lying about taking the photo. I see no reason for her to lie. Reading her testimony over and over, we see that Marina resisted the WC putting words into her mouth -- although they were forceful about it. Marina insisted that she took one and only one photo. She couldn't explain how the WC had two different poses. She knew she had taken only one -- but she could not explain the material evidence repeatedly forced under her nose by the WC. She was obliged to conclude that she "must have" taken two -- by accident. Then, of course, we have the Roscoe White version of the BYP, and so there was a third photograph -- and so the WC argument fall apart quickly. Marina took one photograph of LHO, not of Roscoe White. Definitely not using a tripod. Definitely. This is the source of the head of LHO that was pasted onto the body of Roscoe White, IMHO. Is it possible for your theory to be harmonized with the theory that Marina Oswald was telling the truth (even though LHO was working very hard to keep her in the dark)? Regards, --Paul Trejo Dear Paul, How do you know that's Roscoe White (with Oswald's face) in the back yard photographs? Have you found any pictures of a verified Roscoe White with a bump on his wrist like that? Other than this unverified one, of course, which shows a big-eared "Roscoe" dude in a snapshot developed and printed in May, 1959. -- Tommy

Yes, Chris. I "seen" it. It's Oswald's writing. The unusual "G" in ATSUGI is the same as the one in "PHOTOGRAPHER" and in "MAGAZINE" in his September, 1963, Application for Tourist Card to Visit Mexico. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2481.pdf It still doesn't tell us when and where the "bumpy wrist' photo was taken, however. Last night I started looking at all of the photos, one-by-one, to see how many of them were printed on the same kind of scalloped-edge paper that the "bumpy wrist" one was. Not finished yet, but early on I found one like that that was dated "Dec 1958," and was taken from inside a ship, looking over the gunwale at the ocean. The ship is probably the USS Terrell County, which Oswald took from Japan to San Francisco in December of 1958. -- Tommy

I stand corrected. Thanks. One of the others in the collection says "ATSUGI NAS". Chris, I missed that one. Where do I access it? Thanks, -- Tommy

YOKO.. HAMA -- Tommy

Chris, I forgot to mention that somebody said the "Bump On The Wrist" photo was taken during "artillery radar training." Did the Marines have that in Panama? I don't think the word [P]ANAMA is in Oswald's handwriting. The "M" in particular. As far as I know, Oswald left Japan in December, 1958 and was back at El Toro by May, 1959. Who could have taken the photo and given / sent it to Oswald, and why? Because they wanted to show him the guy who was going to be impersonating him in Mexico City? (I'm talking about the big guy who's pointing a pistol or something at himself but also pointing a finger at the photographer in the "Bumpy Wrist" photo. Note facial resemblance and slouching shoulders.) -- Tommy

Sandy, Probably because whoever was impersonating Oswald had blond hair. It's possible that the bad guys had been misled by some three-year-old (but still ongoing) CIA Popov's Mole-based "marked card" information that had given dark-blond hair to Oswald-in-Russia,and which information was still in some of Oswald's CIA and military intel files in 1963. This is the 1959 false defector (formerly with the United States Air Force), Robert E. Webster [q.v.], from whom Oswald "got" his dark-blond hair: Webster in the USSR -- Tommy Edited and bumped for Sandy Larsen. Thanks Tommy. But I thought you were joking. I can't think of any reason McKeown would even be aware of Robert Webster. Doesn't it strike anybody else as odd that McKeown would think Oswald was blond? BTW, I used to also think Oswald was blond. "Dark blond" like Robert Webster. Which is why I took notice of this. I've since wondered if it's a common mistake. Maybe due to Oswald's fair skin and thinning hair. Something like that. Dear Sandy, I'm afraid you don't understand. I'm saying the bad guys could have chosen a blond-haired Oswald impersonator because they mistakenly thought Oswald was blond. And why did they mistakenly think /Oswald was blond? Because in a CIA / FBI mole-catching operation in Russia from 1959 on, Oswald's and Webster's physical descriptions were intentionally mixed and merged. And the bad guys were relying on the false description of Oswald therein. -- Tommy

Chris, I think you're right. When you zoom in a lot on the photo in the upper right hand corner, you can see the right side of the building going down below the top surface of the ground. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346982/m1/1/ If you're right that the "bump on the wrist photo" was taken in Panama, then it's very unlikely that it was taken by Oswald. Something to ponder: Was the photo taken with his medium format Imperial Reflex? Or with his cheapo 35 mm? -- Tommy

Looks more like a big truck to me. -- Tommy

Yes, although that one's not marked "May 59," so it's not exactly "probative." The one with the bump on the wrist is the same format, but with scalloped edges, and is marked "May 59." Scroll down to: Slide 73: Oswald snapshot http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-jfkwhite/id/3180 The partial snapshot on the left was taken from farther back. Note the squarish thing in the background in both photos. -- Tommy PS I believe Oswald was supposed to have been back at El Toro by May, 1959.

Tommy, poorly written. But the DP Detective Cody is certainly interesting, he is ex-Army C/I who was assigned to Dallas while in that role. I'd think that as a trained observer his testimony has a high chance to be more accurate than a regular person's. I was thinking about Jack Ruby's good skating abilities and Ferrie's trip to Galveston/Houston. Chris, Yeah, that's what I thought you might be thinking about. Alvin Beaubouef told me over the phone about 8 years ago (and Stephen Roy [RIP], too,according to a PM Roy sent me) that Ferrie was CIA.: "[...] For years [beaubouef] said no, Dave had nothing to do with CIA to his knowledge, but later changed and said he did, after becoming friends with some researcher. (Before he met Al, Dave had a claim to CIA: He was a volunteer with the local FRD, a CIA-created group, until his morals problems.) [...]" Beaubouef also told me over the phone that he (Beaubouef) had been a champion ice skater when he was a teenager, and that he and Ferrie were thinking about building an ice skating place in New Orleans, and that that was why he and Ferrie drove to Houston the night of the assassination -- to go ice skating there and to check out the feasibility of starting that kind of business in New Orleans. -- Tommy

The two photos marked "May 59" on this page might give us a clue as to where the photo was taken, and by whom. https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth346982/m1/1/ -- Tommy

Sandy, Probably because whoever was impersonating Oswald had blond hair. It's possible that the bad guys had been misled by some three-year-old (but still ongoing) CIA Popov's Mole-based "marked card" information that had given dark-blond hair to Oswald-in-Russia,and which information was still in some of Oswald's CIA and military intel files in 1963. This is the 1959 false defector (formerly with the United States Air Force), Robert E. Webster [q.v.], from whom Oswald "got" his dark-blond hair: Webster in the USSR -- Tommy Edited and bumped for Sandy Larsen.

Great work, guys! Now for a little shocker regarding the body Oswald's face was was pasted onto, I am no longer convinced that it was Roscoe White. The Marine with the bump on his wrist in this May, 1959, photo seems to have larger ears and a bigger chin than Roscoe did. -- Tommy Tommy, I thought it was established that the marine in the photo is Roscoe. Am I wrong about that? BTW, it seems to me that the marine has a thicker body than what we see in the photos. The BYP body looks like Oswald's to me. Not saying it is Oswald's, just that it looks like his. Skinny. Sandy, I have been assuming for several years that the Marine with his hand on his hip and the bump on his wrist was Roscoe White. Now I'm beginning to think that I, and many other people, were wrong. Just tonight I realized that the Marine's ears and chin are significantly larger than White's, especially the ears. Look for yourself at the photos in my previous post. I would like to find photos of Oswald's and White's right wrists, to see if either of them have a bump like the one that's visible in the back yard photo that's the subject of this thread BTW, I agree with you that "Oswald's" the upper torso looks punier than that of Roscoe "Rock" White. I noticed that some time ago, but didn't want to say anything about it. My personal feeling is that very few things indeed have already been "established" in this fascinating, but highly-frustrating, case. -- Tommy Tommy, Yes, I agree that the marine's ears and chin are bigger than Roscoe's. When Jack White said he thought the BYP body was Roscoe's, did he base that statement on the above photo of the marine? Or did he see the large wrist protrusion on a photo that he knew was indeed of Roscoe? (From what you wrote, it sounds like you agree with the former, not the latter.) [...] --------------------------------------------------------------- Sandy, I have no idea what Jack White's thought process on this was. Unfortunately, Jack was put "upon a pedestal" by many researchers / serious students, myself included. -- Tommy

Observation: Does the report conflate the Korean War and WW II, or is it just kinda poorly-written? -- Tommy

Great work, guys! Now for a little shocker regarding the body Oswald's face was was pasted onto, I am no longer convinced that it was Roscoe White. The Marine with the bump on his wrist in this May, 1959, photo seems to have larger ears and a bigger chin than Roscoe did. -- Tommy Tommy, I thought it was established that the marine in the photo is Roscoe. Am I wrong about that? BTW, it seems to me that the marine has a thicker body than what we see in the photos. The BYP body looks like Oswald's to me. Not saying it is Oswald's, just that it looks like his. Skinny. Sandy, I have been assuming for several years that the Marine with his hand on his hip and the bump on his wrist was Roscoe White. Now I'm beginning to think that I, and many other people, were wrong. Just tonight I realized that the Marine's ears and chin are significantly larger than White's, especially the ears. Look for yourself at the photos in my previous post. I would like to find photos of Oswald's and White's right wrists, to see if either of them have a bump like the one that's visible in the back yard photo that's the subject of this thread BTW, I agree with you that "Oswald's" the upper torso looks punier than that of Roscoe "Rock" White. I noticed that some time ago, but didn't want to say anything about it. My personal feeling is that very few things indeed have already been "established" in this fascinating, but highly-frustrating, case. -- Tommy

Great work, guys! Now for a little shocker regarding the body Oswald's face was was pasted onto, I am no longer convinced that it was Roscoe White. The Marine with the bump on his wrist in this May, 1959, photo seems to have larger ears and a bigger chin than Roscoe did. -- Tommy