Thomas Graves

It would kill any "lone killer" scenario. Does it go "full on" Waldron and make the Mafia prime movers and shakers? Maybe. I don't see Ruby as an "intelligence" type despite his enlistment by the FBI as a sometimes informant. Was there an effort to build an "Oswald" myth leading up to November? maybe. I can see a scenario where Ruby drives Oswald over to McKeown's to buy 4 scoped rifles. Lets play a game: You are three time loser McKeown. The sentence above regarding Ruby and Oswald is true. What would be your actions? Note: McKeown didn't go to the authorities, it was Ruby who confessed to being involved with McKeown that prompted the initial visit by the FBI to McKeown. If Ruby hadn't slipped up it never would have come out. bumped in an attempt to get this thread back on track

Brian Doyle, on 25 Sept 2016 - 06:56 AM, said: Dear Brian, "They"? Chris Newton is the only one who has suggested anyone, Alan Bible, who, unfortunately for "us," didn't become a Senator until after the photographs were taken on May 6, 1953. The reason I haven't suggested, yet, any particular freshman Senator as being your "Ruby" is due to the fact that, on the internet, there are very few photographs of freshman Senators of the 83rd Congress that were taken circa 1953. You may have noticed that a person's face changes, obviously, quite a bit over time? The more time, the more change? -- Tommy

Moved and deleted.

As I've said before, if you did a lot of freeze-framing you could see Prayer Man's sideburns, when he turned his head rapidly to his right and then back again, in a large close-up GIF of PM's head that Duncan posted on this forum about a year ago, but then deleted after about a week. -- Tommy

D Dear Barto, Did I say that I knew the price? National Geographic tends to advertise high-quality stuff, yes? High-quality stuff tends to be expensive, yes? West German made. Four-element lens. Up to 1/1000 second shutter speed. Etc. Do you think it might have been within LHO's financial means? OK. Maybe he stole it. Or someone else did and gave it to him. -- Tommy PS Nice find, Greg Parker.

Interesting, Bart. Rather pricey for LHO, though, one would imagine. -- Tommy

I agree, Chris. I've already tried looking at photos of some of the brand new (but pre- May 6) 1953 "freshman" Senators on the Internet, but unfortunately all of the photos of these guys seem to have been taken when they were older and more "established," therefore making it difficult, so far, to find one who looks like the rather youngish-looking "Ruby impersonator." -- Tommy

Chris, Looking at "your" list, I see that some of the Republicans in it actually replaced Senators who died after the photos were taken on May 6, 1953, and that three Republicans replaced Democrats who died after that date! So for purposes of trying to figure out who the freshman Republican Senators were as of May 6, 1953, I think it's better to go from "my" list because it just shows the Senators who were elected in November of 1952, or who were chosen, sometime before the actual sitting of the 83rd Congress, to replace another Senator. https://en.wikipedia...elections,_1952 -- Tommy

Chris, I stand corrected. I mistakenly assumed that several of them had been reelected. Now I count nine eight freshman Republican Senators: Beall, Bush, Griswold, Payne, Goldwater, Purtell, Cooper, Potter, and Barnett. Who am I missing? -- Tommy

It's a press photograph of an event unrelated to anything we are discussing in this thread. So Ruby tied up a real Senator that day and impersonated him, so he could just by chance, of course, get captured in a press shot of the event? What are the odds? http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Odds Chris, Actually, I think Ruby impersonated a United States Senator so he could get that cool-looking hat. And wear it to Cuba. A few years later. -- Tommy Edit: It appears that Prescott was giving the hats to both Republican and Democrat "freshman" Senators, because other than himself, there were only two other "freshman" Republican Senators elected or appointed in 1952 -- James Glenn Beall (elected), and Dwight Griswold (appointed). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_elections,_1952 Note that in the two photos of the "anointing" of Nixon on this thread, there are three men who are wearing these hats (other than Nixon and Bush), therefore at least one of those men must be a Democrat.

It's obviously not Ruby. Maybe it's Harvey Oswald's father? Or Lee's? Or an uncle of both of them? (I don't suppose Douglas Caddy is old enough to know who this "Ruby impostor" is? Where did this "crowning of Nixon" take place, anyway? The "Ruby impostor" is probably just a local Republican Party hack.) -- Tommy

The individual behind Bush and Nixon does not have a cleft chin. [photos deleted to save memory or whatever] And the individual's nose is less bulbous. Sandy, John Armstrong / Jim Hargrove don't make mistakes. -- Tommy

I'd bet $0.25 that's not Ruby. -- Tommy

You're right about this, Ron. So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers. I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread. Regards, --Paul Trejo Precisely, Paul. In fact, I don't think Lipsey was actually "supporting" anyone, CTer or LNer. I don't think it even occurred to him that anyone was doing anything underhanded at the autopsy, even years later in the HSCA interview. "SECTION 2 LIPSEY: And once again, and I'm sorry, the best I can tell you is my recollection after all these years and obviously some speculation on my part. The only thing, and it's certainly not going to hold up under any court of law-type thing. But, I can remember when the Warren Commission was formed. Everybody's writing books about it. All the comments on how many times he was shot and the angles. I remember Walter Cronkite doing this big CBS thing on who shot him -- how many directions it came from. I can remember vividly in my mind on literally hundreds of occasions, saying these people are crazy. I watched the autopsy and I know for a fact he was shot three times. And the doctors were firmly convinced they all came out of the same gun because of the type of wounds or the entrances, whatever. I wish I could be more specific. I remember going back to the autopsy. I can remember specifically the next week, the next month. Over the period of the next year or so. Which was when I really remember what went on in the room. These people were crazy. I can remember in my own mind, they're trying to read something into it that didn't happen. One book came out that he was shot from three different angles, another report came out he was only shot once, another that he was shot seven times. All kinds of…Everybody had their own versions of what happened, how many sounds they heard, and the angles of the fire they came from. I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots." He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable. Robert, Regardless of which direction or directions the shots came from, the fact that Lipsey recounts the autopsy doctors' talking about three separate shots to JFK is the critical thing, right? (Taking into consideration the fact that Tague, down by the Triple Underpass, was hit by a piece of concrete blasted off the curb by an errant shot, the fact that there wasn't enough time for four shots from the Carcano, and the implausibility of the Magic Bullet Theory, right?) Do you believe that all of the shots that hit JFK came from the rear? From the same window? (Just curious.) -- Tommy Nope. Dear Robert, Which part nope? -- Tommy

You're right about this, Ron. So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers. I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread. Regards, --Paul Trejo Precisely, Paul. In fact, I don't think Lipsey was actually "supporting" anyone, CTer or LNer. I don't think it even occurred to him that anyone was doing anything underhanded at the autopsy, even years later in the HSCA interview. "SECTION 2 LIPSEY: And once again, and I'm sorry, the best I can tell you is my recollection after all these years and obviously some speculation on my part. The only thing, and it's certainly not going to hold up under any court of law-type thing. But, I can remember when the Warren Commission was formed. Everybody's writing books about it. All the comments on how many times he was shot and the angles. I remember Walter Cronkite doing this big CBS thing on who shot him -- how many directions it came from. I can remember vividly in my mind on literally hundreds of occasions, saying these people are crazy. I watched the autopsy and I know for a fact he was shot three times. And the doctors were firmly convinced they all came out of the same gun because of the type of wounds or the entrances, whatever. I wish I could be more specific. I remember going back to the autopsy. I can remember specifically the next week, the next month. Over the period of the next year or so. Which was when I really remember what went on in the room. These people were crazy. I can remember in my own mind, they're trying to read something into it that didn't happen. One book came out that he was shot from three different angles, another report came out he was only shot once, another that he was shot seven times. All kinds of…Everybody had their own versions of what happened, how many sounds they heard, and the angles of the fire they came from. I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots." He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable. Robert, Regardless of which direction or directions the shots came from, the fact that Lipsey recounts the autopsy doctors' talking about three separate shots to JFK is the critical thing, right? (Taking into consideration the fact that Tague, down by the Triple Underpass, was hit by a piece of concrete blasted off the curb by an errant shot, the fact that there wasn't enough time for four shots from the Carcano, and the implausibility of the Magic Bullet Theory, right?) Do you believe that all of the shots that hit JFK came from the rear? From the same window? (Just curious.) -- Tommy

Well, Tommy, I'd been trying to explain my Walker theory here for about six years now, but with each small step I have typically met a mountain of objections. I've spent six years just answering objections to small points. Your thread is the first one to ask me about the major points of my CT. So I appreciate it. The answer to your pointed question above, is that the only people who knew with certainty whether LHO shot at Walker were the other members of the Walker Kill Team -- even if only one other person. Nobody caught them -- and nobody saw their faces. Nobody, IMHO. So -- how can we be certain it was LHO? The only certainty we have is the testimony of Marina Oswald, who repeated what LHO had allegedly told her, personally -- that he was the one. Yet LHO clearly lied to Marina with three lies: (1) that he was alone; (2) that he was on foot; and (3) that he buried his rifle. If (and only if) LHO told Marina the truth about shooting at Walker, then we know that these three lies were lies because of actual eye-witnesses at the scene of the crime at 9pm on that Wednesday 10 April 1963. The kid who saw the shooters escaping in at least one, if not two cars (as two cars raced away together after three persons ran into them and sped off) -- could not see their faces, but he could definitely see three men. Two got into one car, and one of them put something on the floorboards before getting in. So, the DPD record shows: (1) the shooter was not alone; and (2) the shooter was not on foot. As for Marina's claim that LHO said he had "buried" his rifle -- Ruth Paine wants to remind everybody that the word in Russian for "buried" is also used to mean "hidden." So, that could be a translation mistake, rather than a lie. The likelihood is that LHO actually left his rifle in the other person's car. Again, the evidence does not show that LHO used his own rifle, but only that he might have taken it with him, just in case (e.g. Marina thought the rifle was missing). Marina might have guessed a few other facts, but the Warren Commission wasn't interested in her guesses -- only in her knowledge. But as Marina said, LHO kept her in the dark as much as possible. If we refuse to accept Marina's testimony -- then we must ask why in the world she chose to say that, and furthermore, why George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt would also accuse LHO of the Walker shooting, and then how the DPD got ahold of the BYP, there in at Ruth Paine's garage -- and how Roscoe White's widow had a BYP, and how George DeMorhenschildt had a BYP, and how The Militant newspaper had a BYP. The most obvious solution is that Marina was telling the truth. The most obvious explanation for how General Walker found out within days, is that Mrs. Voshinin told the FBI on April 14th, and the FBI, or somebody close to them, told Walker. Walker took this grudge to his grave. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, How do you know that Marina didn't tell the WC what Ruth Paine, George Demohrenschildt (or her putative "Russian control," for that matter) told her to say? Because LHO had written the possibly self-incriminating "Walker Note"? Was the Walker Note Authentic? The note was undated, and did not mention General Walker or any reason why Oswald might find himself under arrest. There are several reasons to doubt the authenticity of the handwritten note: Ruth Paine’s home had been searched thoroughly on the afternoon of the assassination, and again the following day, when Paine claimed to have seen officers specifically looking for loose papers within books (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.87). The inventory of items discovered is 49 pages long, but does not mention the note (FBI HQ Oswald File, 105–82555–24). Although the FBI’s handwriting expert considered that the note was in Oswald’s handwriting (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.437), only one of the three experts who were consulted by the House Select Committee on Assassinations considered the note to be authentic (HSCA Report, appendix vol.8, pp.232–246). The Bureau’s fingerprint expert found seven sets of fingerprints on the note. None of them belonged to either Lee or Marina Oswald (FBI HQ JFK Assassination File, 62–109060–36). http://22november1963.org.uk/did-lee-oswald-shoot-general-edwin-walker -- Tommy

Tommy, here are my answers by the numbers: (1) How did Walker find out so quickly that LHO shot at him? Walker changed his source on this several times, but he was always consistent about his claim that "somebody in authority" told him only days after the shooting. (1.1) For example, in 1975 Walker said that a "Lieutenant in the Dallas Police" told him -- but apparently off the record -- because Walker always complained that DPD Chief Jesse Curry always denied it. (1.2) For example, here is a newsletter to the "Friends of Walker" in 1969, which complains about Jesse Curry personally, regarding Curry's advocacy of the Warren Report. http://www.pet880.com/images/19691212_Curry_Boo_Boo.pdf (1.3) So, Walker never claimed that it was *official* from this Lieutenant. (1.4) Dick Russell has a different theory that lends itself to a theory that somebody close to the FBI told Walker off the record. According to Dick Russell (TMWKTM, 1992), George DeMohrenschildt told Mr. and Mrs. Igor Voshinin four days after the Walker shooting (i.e. on Easter Sunday, April 14, 1963), and Mrs. Voshinin called the FBI and told them right away. Easter Sunday. The implication I derive is that somebody close to the FBI told Walker, since this was a threat to his life. (1.5) Yet the take-away here is that Walker continually demanded from the DPD, the FBI and the CIA to know the TRUTH about the Walker shooting, since he was convinced they knew who the second shooter was, but refused to tell him. Walker accused the officials for lying to him -- but he didn't accuse the rank-and-file -- he felt they were on his side. (2.0) Regarding the question, would Walker telling the authorities get LHO arrested and convicted -- review Walker's letter to Frank Church: There you see that Walker believed firmly that LHO had already been arrested, but that RFK ordered the DPD to release LHO. (2.1) It is a fact that at least two psychiatrists suspected Ex-General Walker of paranoia. (2.2) I myself don't believe that LHO was already arrested by the DPD, until RFK let LHO free. But I do strongly believe that Walker himself believed it. (3.0) As for Guy Banister, he did not believe in getting people arrested -- he believed in blackmailing people to do his bidding. Banister was a power-hungry Ex-FBI chief who ran for public office in New Orleans. But he was thoroughly corrupt. (3.1) According to Ron Lewis, Guy Banister was only interested in Ron Lewis as a volunteer spy because LHO told Banister that Ron Lewis was running from the police because of bounced checks, and so Ron could easily be blackmailed. (4.0) How could LHO tell the police about Guy Banister, since LHO was the one who shot at Walker? LHO was no friend of the police. (4.1) The same goes for Ron Lewis -- he was running from the police. The underground was the only life he knew at the time. (4.2) Also, neither Ron Lewis nor LHO connected the dots between Guy Banister and General Walker -- as far as they knew, according to Ron -- Guy Banister was the king of their underground world. (5.0) When LHO lived in Dallas, he would associate with Roscoe White, who was looking for work, IIRC. That is how Roscoe became the body-double of the BYP (according to Jack White). But after the Walker shooting, Roscoe broke with LHO. (5.1) Heck -- after the Walker shooting, even George DeMohrenschildt, Volkmar Schmidt and Michael Paine broke with LHO. (5.2) After George DeMohrenschildt figured out that LHO was the Walker shooter, he never saw LHO again in his life. (5.3) Volkmar Schmidt told Frontline in 1989, "I did try to convince LHO that General Walker was as bad as Hitler, but I didn't intend for LHO to actually shoot him!" (6.0) I have no idea what LHO's criteria were for including somebody in his address book. He had the name of at least one Nazi in there (according to Jeff Caufield) and also the name of James Hosty. Regards, --Paul Trejo Gosh, Paul. I didn't realize the answers to my questions would be so complicated and convoluted. Here's a new question for you, and then sometime I'll go back and re-ask some of the above questions that I don't think you answered, or at least not very well. How could anyone (a DPD Lieutenant, the FBI, a Dallas White Russian, Marina Oswald, etc) know for sure so quickly that LHO had shot at Walker? Did someone see him do it? Or is it simply that he confessed to Marina, and she ratted him out? Also, what about Robert Pridhomme's question, If Walker knew so quickly, why then did he complain about the DPD's and the FBI's refusing to confirm what he supposedly already knew? -- Tommy

(1) Tommy -- as for Roscoe White's number in LHO's book -- I thought you had said that you saw it there -- so I misunderstood your question. I myself never saw it there. Sorry for that confusion. (2) As for Ron Lewis learning about the General Walker shooting, he claims he heard it from LHO himself. There was a period in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans (the only period in which Ron Lewis knew LHO) in which LHO became very dark and disturbed. LHO said he felt sort of trapped, and he was obsessed with hi-jacking an airplane to Cuba, says Ron Lewis. It was during this period that LHO told Ron that he had been a shooter at General Walker. (3) Ron Lewis also says that LHO claimed to have slipped into confessing to Guy Banister about the General Walker shooting. IIRC, it happened something like this: Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw and their comrades were praising LHO for his superb service in faking an FPCC there in New Orleans, and thereby "infiltrating" the Communists. LHO let his guard down and started boasting -- and then he let it slip that he had been General Walker's shooter. If this is true -- and I suspect that it is -- it portrays LHO as an immature person; but this also correlates with the statements by George DeMohrenschildt (I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy!) and Volkmar Schmidt (Frontline) when they said they were able to convince LHO that General Walker was as bad as Hitler, and that it would be a heroic act to eliminate him. That also shows immaturity. So, yes, LHO wanted to be a US Intelligence Agent with all his heart, but he had no experience with wealthy people like George De Mohrenschildt, and LHO misinterpreted all the signals. He really messed up his life by participating in the conspiracy to assassinate General Walker. That's my reading of it. (4) In my reading of the evidence, General Walker knew that LHO was his shooter only days after the Walker shooting on 10 April 1963. We have General Walker's own claim that this is true -- in multiple places in his personal papers, including this one: http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf We also have Dick Russell's claim that Walker knew about LHO in his famous book, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992), in his interview with Mr. and Mrs. Igor Voshinin, who were two good friends of George DeMohrenschildt, and also two Warren Commission witnesses. They told Dick Russell that George visited them on Easter Sunday (a few days after the Walker shooting) and said that he and Jeanne had been to the Oswald's the night before, and they were pretty sure that LHO was the Walker shooter that everybody was talking about on the radio and TV. They urged George to tell the police, but he refused; he was on his way to Haiti, never to see the Oswald's again. As soon as he left on Easter Sunday, says Mrs. Voshinin, she called the FBI and told them everything. This corresponds roughly to Walker's claim, because the FBI policy would inform a citizen about any threats to them. Or it could be possible that Roscoe White himself told General Walker. The point is that Walker found out about LHO in only a few days. Walker was already prejudiced against LHO, because LHO had lived in the USSR, and had allegedly tried to defect. This was extremely bad in Walker's eyes. So -- given that General Walker found out about LHO being his shooter, and he went to work immediately with his old military, paramilitary and political connections. Because of General Walker, somebody in Guy Banister's office -- probably David Ferrie -- called up LHO out of the blue, flattering him, praising him, and offering him a job in the CIA. (Of course this was a bogus offer.) LHO's new job was to move to New Orleans and go underground, and start up a local FPCC chapter, in order to infiltrate the Communists. Once LHO did that, he would then get publicity for it, and with that publicity he woudl go to Mexico City to obtain an instant visa into Cuba, as all FPCC officers obtain. Once in Cuba, LHO would meet a Fidel Kill Team, and support them in this CIA-backed operation. So, that's what LHO thought he was doing, originally. In private, Guy Banister, David Ferrie and General Walker were having a laugh -- they knew that LHO would never get into Cuba that way -- but instead they were sheep-dipping LHO to be portrayed as a Communist in newspapers, radio and TV. LHO didn't know this -- LHO originally thought he was being groomed in an Anti-Fidel plot. Guy Banister lied to many people about the Walker plot -- even to David Atlee Phillips, who believed that LHO was going to be of great service in his AMLASH project with Alpha 66 and Antonio Veciana. (I'm referring here to Phillip's 1988 manuscript, The AMLASH Legacy. as well as Veciana's famous sighting of Phillips with LHO.) So, that could explain what LHO thought he was doing. At a certain point, however, according to Ron Lewis -- perhaps shortly before his Mexico City period -- LHO began to hear rumors about the JFK plot. Yet LHO and Ron Lewis were convinced that Roscoe White was going to be the shooter for that. By that time, however, even though LHO didn't like his Radical Right leaders anymore, he felt trapped and went along with the program. That's my reading from the WC, the HSCA, hundreds of CT books in the past 25 years, including the Ron Lewis book, Flashback (1993), the Lopez Report (2002), also Bill Simpich's State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014) and Jeff Caufield's new book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy (2015) -- as well as General Walker's personal papers. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Even if Oswald had shot at Walker, and even if Walker had figured that out (btw, how did Walker supposedly figure that out so quickly?), would Walker's telling the authorities have gotten Oswald arrested and convicted? If not, how could Banister / Walker have used it as leverage on Oswald to get him to do anything Banister told him to do? Why didn't Oswald or Lewis tell the authorities about the Walker / Bannister plot to kill JFK? If Oswald and Roscoe were such buddies, don't you think Roscoe's phone number would be in Oswald's address book? And Lewis', too? -- Tommy

Rob, there are many documents in Walker's personal papers that confirm Walker's early suspicions of LHO, as well as the WC testmony of James Herbert Martin, and confirmed by Dick Russell, in my reading. The first and best document is perhaps the German newspaper, Deutsche Nationalzeitung, of 11/29/1963, which first spoke of Oswald being Walker's shooter. When the German FBI grilled that writer, he confessed that General Walker was the source of that story only 18 hours after the JFK assassination, at 6am on 11/23/1963. (This is thoroughly documented on the Mary Ferrell web site.) http://www.pet880.com/images/19631129_Deutsche_NZ.jpg On that same morning of 11/23/1963, the Houston Post published a similar article, naming LHO as Walker's April 10th shooter. The writer refused to disclose his source -- but the German newspaper article is IMHO strong evidence that Walker was also that source. Then, in February 1964, the National Enquirer published that LHO had been Walker's shooter. They also refused to disclose their source -- but I strongly suspect Walker as that source, as well. Also there was the 1968 occassion of the assassination of RFK, when Walker again repeated that JFK would still be alive if LHO had not tried to Walker him back in 1963. http://www.pet880.com/images/19680612_RFK_released_Oswald.pdf There are many other examples in Walker's personal papers. Here is one more -- in three parts -- which is a newsletter from the "Friends of Walker" there in Dallas, from 12/12/1981: http://www.pet880.com/images/19811212_Walker_on_JFK_1.JPG http://www.pet880.com/images/19811212_Walker_on_JFK_2.JPG http://www.pet880.com/images/19811212_Walker_on_JFK_3.JPG And here is Walker's final article on this topic, to the best of my knowledge, published in 1992. http://www.pet880.com/images/19920119_EAW_Oswald_arrested.pdf There's even more. Deep down, General Walker really wanted the world to know his role in the JFK assassination. Regards, --Paul Trejo [deleted]

I rely on everything Marina said under oath -- however, Marina herself admitted that she knew very little -- mainly what Lee told her, and he was often an unreliable source. As for the Imperial Reflex camera -- even granting your one-sided observations and suspicion about Ruth Paine -- photographic experts at the very least concluded that the BYP were made with the Imperial Reflex camera -- to the exclusion of all other cameras. Marina claimed ignorance about cameras as she claimed ignorance about rifles and guns. In the early 1960's, that was common for females. Very little of USA life was co-ed in the early 1960's -- it was very much like the 1950's until JFK was assassinated. Do you wish to review Marina's testimony about the Imperial Reflex in this thread, Rob? I believe it is defensible. IMHO, Oswald used both the cheap Imperial Reflex camera as well as the expensive, sophisticated camera equipment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall to create at least four different BYP's himself -- deliberately -- for plausible deniability. He used the assistance of Roscoe White for this purpose. After having done this back in March 1963, when LHO was confronted on November 23, 1963 with one of the BYP by Captain Will Fritz, LHO predictably said, "That photo is a Fake! It is my face stuck on somebody else's body! I know a lot about photography and I can prove that!" In other words, LHO had immediate plausible deniability -- and he had rehearsed that little speech for six months! Every word he said there was true! Regards, --Paul Trejo Being "under oath" with the WC meant very little for several reasons. Firstly, they never enforced a perjury charge against any witness, thus, they never enforced a "must tell the truth" approach.Secondly, there was no cross-examination, therefore, it is not legal testimony that you will find in a court of law. Numerous witnesses brought lawyers with them to testify, but there was no lawyer for LHO. That is wrong. You have the right to believe everything that Marina said, but both the WC and HSCA had doubts about her truthfulness on quite a few issues. I choose to be more careful and that is my right. You call my account of the camera "one-sided", but it is based on the evidence. Do you have different evidence? If so, please let me know about it. You seem willing to believe claims by Marina and lay the issue on LHO, but that is not how I see it. Anything LHO would have told her in private was protected under law so all we would have is her claim that it was said. I don't need to review the testimony in this thread as I have reviewed it for thirty years, therefore, I know that there is no evidence showing that LHO owned that camera or that Marina ever took any photos. Just so you know, I am new here, but I am not new to this topic. Rob, I don't know if Marina had a lawyer during her WC interrogations (I would imagine that she did), but her coming to the US from the USSR, a regime not known for ensuring fair judicial proceedings, might have put the fear of god into her regarding her WC testimony, and therefore might have caused her to be more truthful under that kind of questioning than she otherwise would have been. Just sayin'. -- Tommy Hi Tommy. Your point is good as it makes sense she would be afraid of being deported, but the record is still the record. She was extremely unreliable in many cases and outright untruthful in quite a few other situations. That is not me saying that but rather the WC and the HSCA saying that.She did have a lawyer by the way. As for the legal system in her country I am not aware of the fact that she was ever in legal trouble, but I could be wrong. I have learned a lot of new things about her in the last few months that have made me doubt the innocent girl she portrayed. Marguerite Oswald thought that both Marina and Ruth Paine were involved in the conspiracy. Given both of their track records it is hard for me to just up and discount this claim. They both gave a lot of testimony against LHO. Ruth Paine kept "finding" evidence after the assassination when the DPD had searched her home twice and had not found it. Call me skeptical. Rob, I wasn't trying to suggest that Marina might have been particularly afraid of being deported back to Russia (USSR, actually), but that she might have been concerned about being taken to the basement of our own "Lubyanka"! Rumors of prostitution aside, I don't know if she ever had any problems with the law in Russia. Regardless, everyone in Russia must have been aware of the horrors of Khrushchev's predecessors' purges and show trials, and the way Soviet "justice" worked in general. She might have assumed it was almost as bad here. -- Tommy

This is a great question in the context of this thread. If Roscoe White is truly the body-double in the BYP, as Jack White had argued back in 1995, then we are justified in asking the question -- why? We should first remember that Roscoe White was not a Dallas Police Officer at this time. Roscoe's wife, Geneva, was working at the Carousel Club at the time. Also, Jack White has photographic evidence that LHO and Roscoe had known each other in the Marines, there in Atsugi, Japan. According to Dr. Jeff Caufield, LHO was a right-winger, who hoped to be hired by some US Intelligence program as a double-agent, by pretending to be a Communist. Yet LHO never joined any Communist cell, nor ever had any Communist friends -- it was all by mail, leaving a deliberate paper trail. LHO always maintained plausible deniability. IMHO, Roscoe White was impressed with LHO in the early part of 1963. LHO was trying to create a Communist persona by using fake ID (e.g. Alek J. Hidell) and we know that LHO sent one of his BYP to the Communist newspaper, The Militant, in early 1963 (yes, they finally admitted that they had one). So, it seems to me that LHO and Roscoe White were getting along as pals in March 1963, and LHO was boasting to Roscoe that he was going to infiltrate the Communists by using photography -- by sending a BYP to The Militant newspaper. However, to do this, LHO would have explained to Roscoe White, LHO needed plausible deniability, and sold him on the idea of the BYP, which would use the body of Roscoe White, and pasting the face of LHO over the body-double, so that LHO could later "prove" that the photo was a fake. To start, he insisted that Marina take his own picture, dressed in all-black, holding his rifle and wearing his pistol, and holding Communist newspapers in his right hand. Marina remembers taking one and only one photo. That was all LHO needed at the start. And she would also remain ignorant of all of the rest of LHO's plans here. Marina saw no other poses. Marina never met Roscoe (who couldn't speak Russian). So -- why would Roscoe pose for four more BYP photos? IMHO, because Roscoe was impressed with LHO's Anticommunist plans to infiltrate the Communists, that's why. Roscoe kept as a souvenir one of the BYP, which was found many years later. However -- once LHO was side-tracked by George DeMohrenschildt and Volkmar Schmidt to try to assassinate General Walker (whom they insisted was too far to the right), Roscoe was no longer impressed. In fact, he would run to the aid of General Walker. Roscoe White would eventually join the team of General Walker to get revenge on LHO by helping to set up LHO as the Patsy for the JFK assassination. According to his son, Ricky White, Roscoe was one of the shooters at JFK that day, but also was one of the shooters of J.D. Tippit. For some strange reason, LHO continued to trust the plotters to rescue him from this mess "to come forward and give me legal assistance." Jack Ruby was pulled into the plot only at the very last minute -- by the DPD rogues who were also supporting Roscoe White and General Walker, IMHO. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Thanks for answering my question. I hate to admit it, but I rather like your answer. -- Tommy Did LHO happen to have Roscoe's phone number in his little book? How do you know Roscoe joined "Walker's team"? Tommy, on this point I refer to Ron Lewis and his book, Flashback: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald (1993). I realize very few people refer to this book, and I do admit that Ron sometimes exaggerates his case a bit (by claiming he was LHO's "best friend"). Yet I find Ron's story to be believable in its general outline and in its naivete. In brief, Ron's story is this: (1) Ron was in New Orleans hiding out from the law because of some bounced checks in the Northeastern US. Ron was also a less-than-honorably discharged Marine. Ron had a quickly deployable skill -- meat packing. He walked to work passing by Reily Coffee Company. One day in the summer of 1963, Ron met LHO on the street, handing out FPCC fliers. (2) Ron and LHO struck up a conversation, and developed a rapport. Ron was convinced that LHO was a Socialist, looking out for the little guy, and that they had much in common. (3) One day LHO offered Ron a volunteer position working for Guy Banister on the Russell Long campaign. Ron was to join the Russell Long campaign and spy on them, and bring reports to Guy Banister. Ron decided to do it for the intrigue. It turned out that Ron had a great time doing that. (4) Ron would get up early in the morning on his way to work just to meet LHO at Thomas Alba's Garage for camaraderie and Long campaign gossip. (5) At one point, LHO told Ron to listen to the radio to hear LHO in support of the FPCC. Ron was delighted with what he heard. (6) However, around the same time, LHO changed his personality. He became darker. He demanded that Ron help him hijack an airplane to Cuba. Ron back-pedaled as fast as he could, and told LHO that Cuba is only 50 miles from Florida, and the best way to Cuba would be to take a small, private airplane from Miami. (7) To make a long story short, in the context of their brief summer relationship, Ron visited Guy Banister's office once, which was swarming with Cuban refugees -- and Ron soon learned that LHO was not really a Socialist, but was actually working for the Radical Right. Rather than support Fidel Castro, LHO was more likely to assassinate Fidel Castro. (8) Among the Radical Right folks that Ron Lewis saw in New Orleans in Guy Banister's circle in 1963 was Roscoe White. Ron remembers the name very clearly, because of the association with the cartoon "Roscoe Rabbit," and Ron and LHO used to joke about Roscoe's name. That's very abstract -- but this could explain why LHO had Roscoe White's contact info in his address book. In other words, Roscoe White was working with Guy Banister, even in the summer of 1963 -- along with David Ferrie, and with mercenaries like Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Roy Hargraves, William Seymour, and countless Cuban refugees. (This was part-time, though, because Roscoe lived in Dallas.) Their common goal was to assassinate Fidel Castro -- but there was a secondary goal known only to a very few -- namely, to assassinate JFK. In his book, Flashback, Ron Lewis says that he confronted LHO with this shocking plot, and LHO confessed that when Guy Banister learned that LHO had been General Walker's shooter, that Guy Banister began to put pressure on LHO to force his cooperation. That is -- General Walker played a direct role in Guy Banister's New Orleans operation. In Jeff Caufield's new book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015) we see a confirmation that Guy Banister and General Walker were close political allies (along with folks like Joseph Milteer). In the Radical Right in Dallas in 1963, General Walker was the leading figure. Roscoe White, who was also in the Radical Right, would have moved in General Walker's circles (as did J.D. Tippit). When Roscoe White joined the Dallas Police in October, 1963, it was not by accident. Anyway -- this is a rational connection between Roscoe White and LHO on the one hand and General Walker on the other hand. I admit that Ron's story is abstract and incomplete -- but I also believe it harmonizes more facts about LHO's summer and LHO's connections than anything else I've read from the past 50 years, until Caufield's book. Finally, as you may know, Ron Lewis was one of Oliver Stone's advisers for his 1992 movie, JFK. Regards, --Paul Trejo "LHO had Roscoe White's contact info in his address book." Can you tell me where to find it? "In his book, Flashback, Ron Lewis says that he confronted LHO with this shocking [JFK assassination plot], and LHO confessed that when Guy Banister learned that LHO had been General Walker's shooter, that Guy Banister began to put pressure on LHO to force his cooperation." How did Ron Lewis learn of General Walker's JFK assassination plot? (Did LHO spill the beans?) How did Guy Banister learn that LHO had shot at Walker? (Did LHO let the cat out of the bag?) What did LHO think his own role was in Walker's JFK plot? -- Tommy

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OK, Chris, I'll try to remedy that. -- Tommy Edit: OK, fire away.