Thomas Graves

Good eye for the cigarette, Duncan. --Tommy

Dear James, Do you know which step he's standing on? Respectfully, --Tommy

How tall was Billy Lovelady? --Tommy

Sorry, James. I don't understand your post. Are you saying that the person we've been calling Prayer Man is only about five feet tall? What exactly are you saying? That it might be Lovelady? Respectfully, --Tommy

Dear Jon, I know you disagree. You think he was just an "odd duck" who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Respectfully, --Tommy Isn't an intelligence agent, by definition, a "puppet," in that he or she does what they are told to do by their case officer?

James, I think you meant to congratulate Robert P., not me. I'm the fly in the ointment here. I'm the spanner in the works. I'm arguing that Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled down. I believe that the sleeve covering his right forearm is in the sun, making it appear to be lighter-colored in comparison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade. I believe his right sleeve is not rolled up, but it is a few inches short of his wrist. So, James, I disagree with your assessment that the person is "clearly" wearing a short sleeve shirt. If the person was wearing a short sleeved shirt, he had very hairy arms. And the hair stopped a few inches from his wrist. I think Prayer Man might be Billy Lovelady wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt with the sleeves rolled down. Respectfully, --Tommy Before we started talking about how tall Prayer Man was and which step he was standing on, we were talking about whether or not he was wearing a long sleeved shirt. .

Dear Jon, Here's the sixty-four thousand dollar question -- Was Oswald set up to be the poison pill patsy, or was he just framed by someone who knew that he had been the bait in the Mexico City mole hunt? Respectfully, --Tommy

Dear Jon, What we have learned from you: Oswald was an odd duck who was not set up to be the patsy but was unlucky enough to find work at the TSBD and to be framed for the assassination, after the fact, by McGeorge Bundy and his pals. Respectfully, --Tommy

Dear Jon, Whatever you say. Oswald was just an odd duck "Marxist" ex-Marine radar operator who had monitored the U-2 and had defected to Russia and threatened to commit espionage / sabotage while there but whom the State Department loaned money so that he could return to the U.S. with his Russian wife and who was unlucky enough to be working in the TSBD when JFK's limo drove by. Respectfully, --Tommy

James, I think you meant to congratulate Robert P., not me. I'm the fly in the ointment here. I'm the spanner in the works. I'm arguing that Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled down. I believe that the sleeve covering his right forearm is in the sun, making it appear to be lighter-colored in comparison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade. I believe his right sleeve is not rolled up, but it is a few inches short of his wrist. So, James, I disagree with your assessment that the person is "clearly" wearing a short sleeve shirt. If the person was wearing a short sleeved shirt, he had very hairy arms. And the hair stopped a few inches from his wrist. Respectfully, --Tommy edited to say "with the sleeves rolled"

The only way I can agree with you is if Prayer Man had very hairy arms. --Tommy

Dear Jon, Of course his hand is bare, as is his wrist. But not his forearm. IMHO, the sleeve stops short of his wrist. (Please see my "analysis" and the Weigman frame I'm talking about here in post # 1703, this thread.) --Tommy . PS The fact that Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt that is not rolled up is even more evident in this photo: (Bear in mind that some sunlight is hitting his right arm because he's holding it out a bit, in front of his body. Note that the sunlight is also hitting his side, below his right arm.) Unless that's Lovelady and he's wearing his short sleeved, red and white, vertically-striped shirt, it's hard for me to imagine Oswald (or Lovelady for that matter) rolling his the sleeves of his long sleeved shirt up and standing there in the shade like that on a cool, windy day. --Tommy

Then why do they give them to you? I save Indian Head pennies, but I only save ticket stubs for a few days. I throw it away when I realize it's still in my pocket. --Tommy

Thanks, Ray Ken, Your vote makes it -- Twelve "normals" to two "abnormals". --Tommy Time for a bump. Who else would like to cast their vote? Don't be shy. bumped to get it back on track

This is possibly the most insightful comment of the day. Yet it simply points out the obvious. Mark, I don't know if I should take that as a compliment or not. Either it's so obvious that no one ever thinks about it, or is been a spectacularly un-insightful day. Regardless, "Thanks!" --Tommy Bottom line: I figure Oswald did buy a ticket, and Julia Postal felt guilty about testifying to the contrary. But that raises another question -- shouldn't Oswald have had the ticket stub in his pocket?

The only explanation I can think of is that "Lansdale" was somehow interacting with the "E. Howard Hunt" tramp by saying "Good job" or "Don't let them have that radio inside your bag," or something like that. --Tommy

Dear Robert, James Gordon has just notified me that you have been warned for accusing me of "intellectual dishonesty.". I do not want to be put on moderation again, so I'm trying to "tone it down" and to behave myself. Therefore, I will not be provoked by you or anyone else. My suggestion to you is that you start your own informal poll, on another thread. Please do not try to derail this thread (I believe there are EF rules against that) or to engage me in any further "debate." Respectfully, --Tommy

Have you tried googling "three tramps" "dealey plaza" all at the same time and using quotation marks just like that? Using quotation marks in google search can do wonderful things. good luck --Tommy

Dear Robert, Reflected sunlight off of a white wall is funny thing, isn't it. If you look closely at Gerda Dunkel's blowup, you'll see that "Lovelady" on the Elm Street Extension in bending his left arm at the elbow because he's walking fast, and that he is, indeed, wearing a long sleeved shirt. BTW, do you think that the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" clips were both photographically altered, or do you think they were staged (With an actor? With Lovelady?) at a later date? I'm afraid you must answer these questions before we proceed. Respectfully, --Tommy

The tramps were taken off a freight train that had left the railway yard behind the grassy knoll and had traveled about half-a-mile down the tracks to the south east, close to where those skyscraper hotels are today. Then they were marched back to Dealey Plaza. My memory tells me it was around 2:30 PM when those photos of the tramps were taken. --Tommy

Dear Jon, The problem is, although the physical description of the assassin (5'10", 165 lbs, 30-years-oldish) in those radio calls may have been intended to be part of the frame job, it was an inaccurate description of the 24-year old, 5'9", 131-pounds-at-autopsy Oswald, and as such could not have been expected to lead to the arrest of Oswald. So either Police Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer was inadvertently given old "marked card" information on Oswald / Webster, or somebody really did see the 30-year-old, 5'10", 165 lb. assassin (not Oswald) as he was running away from the TSBD. The description of the assassin in the radio calls would not, in-and-of-themselves, have led to the apprehension of Oswald, IMHO. The Tippit murder was required, as was Johnny Brewer's alleged witnessing of Oswald's sneaking into the Texas Theater. It's interesting that Julia Postal burst into tears several years after the assassination when asked whether or not she had sold a ticket to Oswald. I believe that she had. After all, even if Oswald was the assassin, why would he want to draw attention to himself by sneaking into a stupid theater? Better to just act nonchalant and pay the stupid ninety cents (or whatever it was). Respectfully, --Tommy

Thanks, Ray Ken, Your vote makes it -- Twelve "normals" to two "abnormals". --Tommy Time for a bump. Who else would like to cast their vote? Don't be shy.

Dear Jon, Of course his hand is bare, as is his wrist. But not his forearm. IMHO, the sleeve stops short of his wrist. (Please see my "analysis" and the Weigman frame I'm talking about here in post # 1703, this thread.) --Tommy . PS The fact that Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt that is not rolled up is even more evident in this photo: (Bear in mind that some sunlight is hitting his right arm because he's holding it out a bit, in front of his body. Note that the sunlight is also hitting his side, below his right arm.)

Dear Mr. Tidd, I respectfully disagree. I think Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt , not rolled up, and that there is sunlight on his right forearm (which is sticking out a bit from his body), making the sleeve on his right forearm look lighter than it really was in comparison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade. Note that this lighter color starts right at his right elbow, not a little bit below it which would be the case if the sleeve were rolled up or if he were wearing a short sleeved shirt. Lovelady's long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt was of fairly heavy material like flannel, so it would have been difficult for him to roll it up that far. I think you can even make out where the right sleeve ends a little short of Prayer Man's right wrist, and the "plaid" pattern on the forearm part of the sleeve. I'm starting to think that Prayer Man was Billy Lovelady after all, and that Altgens 6 "Doorman" and Weigman's "Prayer Man" were one and the same person -- Lovelady. But the question remains: Where is Bill Shelley in either Altgens 6 or Weigman? --Tommy edited and bumped

Dear Mr. Tidd, I respectfully disagree. I think Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt , not rolled up, and that there is sunlight on his right forearm, making the sleeve on his right forearm look lighter than it really was in comparrison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade. Note that this lighter color starts right at his right elbow, not a little bit below it which would be the case if the sleeve were rolled up or if he were wearing a short sleeved shirt. I think you can even make out where the right sleeve ends a little short of Prayer Man's right wrist, and the "plaid" pattern on the forearm part of the sleeve. I'm starting to think that Prayer Man was Billy Lovelady after all, and that Altgens 6 "Doorman" and Weigman's "Prayer Man" were one and the same person -- Lovelady. But the question remains: Where is Bill Shelley in either Altgens 6 or Weigman? --Tommy