William Kelly

.... Good Day.... I have JOHN ORR's report, "Analysis of Gunshots in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963," that he also sent to JANET RENO, and it is freely available + downloadable for you, here....

http://www.longislandfirearms.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=20446

Best Regards in Research

+++Don

Donald Roberdeau

United States Navy

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

For your key considerations + independent determinations....

Homepage: President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and Assassination Evidence, Witnesses, Photographers, Suspects, + Outstanding Researchers Discoveries + Key Considerations.... http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

The Dealey Plaza Detailed Map: Detailing 11-22-63 Victims Precise Locations + Reactions, Evidence, Witnesses Locations, Photographers, Suspected Bullet Trajectories, Important Information + Key Considerations, in One Convenient Resource....

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3966/dppluschartsupdated1111.gif

(updated map, + new information)

Visual Report: The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was Still Hidden Under the "magic-limbed-ricochet-tree"....

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif

Visual Report: Reality Versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-in, Garbage-out.... http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5066/jsf.gif

Discovery: "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS

Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap: West, Ultrafast, and

Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll"....

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States:

http://www.dhs.gov

Thanks for that Don, without having read the report I misunderstood what he was saying.

At the urging of Orr, the DOJ/FBI/NARA/ARRB "tested" the bullet fragments CE567 for DNA and came up "inconclusive" five years later, when in fact, Orr didn't request the DNA testing, he requested that the material embedded in the fragments be identified as either flesh and blood or body material or cloth from jfk's jacket, shirt or tie. If the former, the fragment came from the head shot, and if the latter, from the back-neck shot - which would scientifically disprove the Single Bullet theory.

BK

Detroit Free Press picks up on the Air Force One radio tapes story -

http://www.freep.com/article/20131110/NEWS07/311100070/jfk-air-force-one-assassination-tape

“The Air Force One tapes are sort of like the black box of the assassination. It has all the basic information there you want to know of what happened at the highest levels of government in the two hours after the assassination. And it all should be right there, but there’s some that’s missing,” said Kelly,...

“Spine chilling” is how Primeau describes listening to history come to life on the tapes,... “As I listen to the recordings, I can hear edits. I can actually go through and pick out spots where I believe there are pieces that were missing. And there’s lots of theories about why there would be pieces removed....What was taken out, who took them out and where are they?”

It also points to the possibility that the entire record of the radio transmissions is somewhere out there, says author and former Washington Post reporter Jefferson Morley, who has led the charge to have the CIA release still-classified material on the assassination.

“It’s not the tape itself. It’s what the tape tells us. And what the tape tells us is that there was a longer recording of the Air Force One communications on Nov. 22. That was never known before. What the tape tells us is there could be, somewhere, a recording of the reaction of the U.S. national security agencies to the president’s death,”....An original source tape with several more hours of content would be a big historical discovery. “It would be the record of the government’s response to the assassination itself,” .....

“Aside from what I might disagree with Kelly on, it’s always a good thing to try to get the historical record in better shape, to clarify the material,” said professor John McAdams ......

Morley says there’s no justification for continued official secrecy about the assassination. “Things are withheld on grounds of national security, and that’s not very plausible for 50-year-old documents about Cuba. The secrecy around the subject remains a big problem for public understanding, and it encourages suspicion.”

Primeau suspects the original source tapes of the Air Force One tapes may no longer exist. “Will they ever surface? I don’t think so. I think they’re destroyed, like parts of the Watergate tapes were destroyed, permanently gone so that nobody could ever find out.”

Even if that is the case, he adds, witnesses could still be found to speak to what was said all those years ago.

“I think it’s everybody’s hope that this might nudge somebody, I don’t know how else to say this, (who) is going to be around for a few more years and doesn’t care about telling the truth now, who might know something, and it might bring us another step closer to the truth.”

<snip>

3. When you refer to Oswald's FBI number, please be specific. Are you referring to an "informant" code? If so, what was it according to the Dallas District Attorney? And how did he supposedly learn about it?

Ernie, according to my notes, Dallas DA Henry Wade claimed in January, 1964, that Lee Harvey Oswald had FBI informant number S179. Wade also claimed that Oswald was being paid $200 monthly for providing information to the FBI.

The sources I've read suggest that Henry Wade's sources were undisclosed. However, Wade was accompanied by Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr, and together they brought this to the attention of the Warren Commission in early January, 1964, just as the Warren Commission was setting up its coffee machines, so to speak.

It then became necessary for J. Edgar Hoover to send a sworn affidavit to the Warren Commission flatly denying the truth of these allegations, and affirming that the FBI had no such interaction with Lee Harvey Oswald whatsoever. This affidavit is now a part of the Warren Commission volumes.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

I think this story has been traced back to a trio of "journalists" - Houston Chronicle reporter Lonnie Hudkins, Hugh Aynesworth and Joe Goulden, the latter two being certified CIA assets - who wanted to float a "trial balloon" to see if it floated, and made up the number, but Wade, himself a former FBI agent who ran informants - was serious, and thought Oswald could have been used by the FBI without them having any official record of it, as he said was the case with many of the informants he ran.

Thanks for those important tidbits Larry and Robert.

At the top, as for MacNamara's upgrading of CCC - Command Control Communications - and new satellite tech coming on line - I call attention - to JFK's September 23-24? Executive Order - -regarding Four Leaves - which (as Robert once pointed out) is only mentioned in the JFK Library in the President's Daily Diary - and it is described as some sort of military communications system.

How come we can't get anything more on Four Leaves - fifty years later?

I don't know if it is connected to Falling Leaves - which was the sudden deployment of ICBM radar towards Cuba.

I haven't looked into them yet, but Collins Radio annual reports indicate they were part of the vanguard of defense contractors involved

Excerpt from Collins History - ".....Another area of broadcast radio equipment for Collins Radio Company in the post-war years as equipment for the State Department’s Voice of America network. In the conflict of ideologies with the Communist block countries, later coined the “Cold War,” the weapons was radio. In 1950 the VOA began an expansion to lengthen its radio time, and Collins had a big part in equipping the radio ship Courier for its debut in the propaganda war. The project, called “Operation Vagabond,” was a facet of the “ring plan” designed to ring all of the world’s critical areas with extremely high-powered communications acilities. The Feather Ridge studies by Dr. Dale McCoy and C.M. Hepperle, led to construction by Collins of a giant aluminum dish antenna for the Naval Laboratory at Anacostia, D.C. in 1950."

It would be nice if someone can get a make on "Operation Vagabond," "The Feather Ridge Studies," or Four Leaves."

On the street level - Tippit's good friend Carl Mather worked at Collins on the radio equipment aboard the Vice President's plane at Brandywine, which I think is a base in Maryland which is part of the Mystic Star network - though they didn't call it that in 1963, which was the last year that they used the open air way frequencies that anyone could listen to if they had the right equipment and knew the frequency or had a scanner.

When I first read the reports on the ARRB-DOJ-FBI-NARA agreements to test CE567 it became apparent that Orr was behind it. He was the chief anti-trust attorney in Atlanta, who studied the ballistics on his own time.

Orr suggested that the bullet that hit the President in the head and shattered, was not the same composition as the full-metal copper jacketed bullet like CE 399, found nearly intact on a stretcher at Parkland and deemed the bullet that did all of the non-fatal wounds in both JFK and Connally.

DOJ Memo Jan. 4, 1996 from Acting Chief of Gen. Litigation and Legal Section to John C.

Keeney, Acting Asst. Attorney Gen. Criminal Division

“John T. Orr, Jr., Chief of the Antitrust Division’s Atlanta Field Office, wrote to the Attorney General in April t advise her of his conclusions that President Kennedy was killed by a second gunman acting in concert with Lee Harvey Oswald. John Hogan, Chief of Staff in the Office of the Attorney General, referred Mr. Orr’s submission, which Mr. Orr indicated was the result of research conducted during non-duty hours, to the Criminal Division for review.”

“We met with Mr. Orr, while he was in Washington to receive a Distinguished Service Award from the Attorney General, and we have since reviewed the report which he prepared. It is our opinion that Mr. Orr’s observations justify the performance of certain modest preliminary investigative measures to test the foundation of his assassination conspiracy theory.”

“Jurisdiction. Federal criminal statutes covering the assassination of the President and assaults against federal officials generally were enacted after 1963. Accordingly, the criminal statutes of Texas represent the best, and probably only viable, mechanism for prosecution of any living person determined to have been involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. Despite the lack of apparent federal prosecutorial jurisdiction over the November 1963 assassination of President Kennedy, Congress and the Executive Branch have historically recognized Department of Justice investigative jurisdiction over the matter, concurrent with Texas investigative jurisdiction. The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been deemed the appropriate federal investigative agency for this matter, partly in recognition of the potential appearance of a conflict of interest which the Secret Service, as the protective force at the time of the assassination, would confront.”

“...It is our view that the Department has retained investigative jurisdiction over the assassination, though such investigation is restricted to activities which are not based upon the expectation of an eventual federal prosecution. Thus, the examination of evidence in federal possession is seemingly appropriate, which obtaining evidence by grand jury subpoena would like be inappropriate. This position was adopted by the Division and endorsed b the Office of the Deputy Attorney General when we declined to seek a court order for exhumation of former Governor Connally’s body following allegations that bullet fragments remaining in his body from the incident would reveal, by weight or composition, the existence of additional bullets.”

“Mr. Orr’s Theory. Mr. Orr has challenged the Warren Commission and House Select Committee trajectory findings. It is his view that Mr. Oswald and a conspirator fired two distinctly different types of ammunition from different locations in a coordinated attack. He believes that Oswald shot both the President and Governor Connally, while a marksman shot the President once in the center of the back of the head, actually causing the President’s death.”

“Mr. Orr believes that the second gunman assassinated the President with a single shot to the President’s head, fired after Oswald’s second shot. He believes that the ammunition used was very different from Oswald’s – a soft-nose or hollow-point bullet very different from the military style full-metal-jacket bullets which have been attributed to Oswald. He believes that the trajectory and impact of this “third shot” proves conclusively that neither Oswald’s ammunition nor Oswald’s location could have been the source of that fatal shot. Mr. Orr cites the fragment pattern documented by x-rays, in general, and the presence of fragments (visible in x-rays), outside the skull next to the entry would, or a type associated with soft-nose ammunition.”

While Mr. Orr has suggested rather complex measures, such as computer recreation of the assassination, to confirm his theory, he has also proposed certain investigative tasks which are relatively simple and inexpensive but which have the potential of confirming or refuting the foundation of his theory.”

“…We endorse Mr. Orr’s proposal that a complete study of the bullet and bullet fragments housed at the National Archives be conducted, to include their color, texgture, density, and shape, and the presence of any foreign matter contamination. Alleged fiber evidence embedded in the bullet nose recovered from the front seat of the limousine should have characteristics consistent with the President’s shirt collar, tie, and tie liner – thus establishing a different trajectory than that previously identified.”

“A comparison of suspected pieces of the same round should be conducted. If Mr. Orr’s theory is correct, evaluation of identified wounds and bullet fragments should confirm the use of two very different types of ammunition, suggesting but not proving the involvement of two shooters....”

“...If the fabric evidence confirms Mr. Orr’s view of the likely trajectory of the ‘first shot’ and the ammunition ‘footprint’ and residue confirm that the ‘third bullet’ was very different in composition from the others, we believe that there will then be a sufficient basis to further test Mr. Orr’s theory.”

Dave wrote:

Let me know what you think of Lambert's book and my article, Bill.

BK: And i thought you knew better than that Dave, as the Garrison case against Shaw certainly polarized the "research community" and its still divided among those who think Garrison on the right track but was co-opted by CIA infiltrators, and those who think he never really had a case.

Me, of the evidence examined by the New Orleans grand jury, the Houma Bunker raid was more important to me, and showed clearly that the Bannister-Ferrie operations were off the cuff and incapable of conducting an assassination operation, at least the one that succeeded like the one at Dealey Plaza, which in my case book, was well planned and executed by an experienced and professional crew - and not the Yah-whoos who did the Houma Bunker raid.

Maybe they helped set up Oswald as the Patsy, but they didn't kill JFK.

The following deserves close scrutiny Robert

Document # 104-10018-10002 is a one page cable dated 12/09/63. It is from CIA to FBI. "Richard Beymer, American Movie Actor was in touch with Cuban embassy, Mexico City."1. The Mexico City News of 5 December 1963 carried a picture of Richard Beymer, American movie actor, who was a delegate to the film festival being held in Acapulco."2. Beymer was in touch with the Cuban embassy in Mexico City on 2 December, and a person believed to be Beymer was in touch with the embassy on 30 November. He wanted to speak to Silvia Duran, who was not at the embassy. Another employee told him that no reply had been received from Cuba. "3. This office has no information on Beymer."This is signed by Jane Roman, as the releasing officer, L.N. Gallery, as the authenticating officer, and a B. I. R. or B.E. R handwritten in. END

There are 13 docs which pullup under simple search “actor” @ NARA.....It appears 9 of these docs pertain to the actor Richard Beymer

http://www.nara.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/20587/jfksnew.txt

Now you know why they say truth is stranger than fiction.

What an amazing story? However, I recently discovered that the CIA made full-use of people working in Hollywood as agents.

Christine Keeler met Earl Fenton, at a New Year party. Keeler claims that he was working for the CIA. According to Mandy Rice-Davies, Fenton was a screen-writer who introduced her to Robert Mitchum. The following month Fenton contacted Keeler. According to her account: "Stephen had been telling him lies, feeding him false information and indicating that I was spying for the Russians because of my love for Eugene. The message was to leave the country, say nothing about anything I might have seen or heard."

As you can see, Earl Fenton did very little work in Hollywood:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0272037/

Yea, I too find that amazing and deserves closer scrutiny, and I'm sorry I missed this thread when it was started.

Apparently Richard Beymer, of "West Side Story" fame, was the previously un-named American actor who was at the Twist Party Oswald and other were said to have attended at the home of Silvia Duran, so his presence in Mexico around that time and his calling Duran at the Cuban embassy substantiates that at least he was in the picture, so to speak.

BK

Len Osanic, the Canadian researcher and producer of the internet's best Black Op Radio, and Jeff Carter are producing 50 short videos on the Kennedy assassination for the 50th anniversary - and devoted #47 on my Air Force One radio transmission reserch.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOpje8kixcV-skbCZOOiNlw/videos?view=0&flow=list&live_view=500&sort=dd

Harry - could you fill in any details on what you wrote?

Yes, Harry, could you fill in the redactions for us so we know what type of info they don't want us to read?

I'd like to know why, if Harry's letters were unsolicited, why they would be redacted at all?

And i'm really surprised that J. E. Hoover and other high government officials would even bother to write up documents about Harry if he had no relationship with them at all.

I know how the FBI dealt with one of John O'Neil's undercover informants - who infiltrated an animal rights group - and how he kept things compartmentalized and didn't write up any official reports for the files - that I can find.

And then there's Henry Wade, the Dallas DA who had been an FBI agent who ran informants in Mexico and said that he knew how the FBI handled informants when he worked for them, how they were contacted, how they were controlled, how they were paid, and how there were virtually no records kept of their work.

So if Harry recognized that Oswald had a similar relationship to the government as he did - while in the Chicago FPCC, then why are we surprised that the top echelon of FBI deny any relationship with Harry or Oswald?

BK

I don't know if these docs are at Mary Ferrell or not, and have not revisited this in years, but I did locate a few redacted documents that I pulled out of Harry's file a few years ago to ask him about it - and got sidetracked.

In any case, here's one document from Harry's file that I pulled and wanted to ask him about.

Harry, did you write this letter or is it someone else who wrote it and your name is written in at the bottom for some other reason? And who redacted it? Thanks - BK

Tony blogs on New Yorker's swipe at Conspiracy buffs.

I refer you to:

http://anthonysummersandrobbynswan.wordpress.com

in which Tony expresses his opinions "On When to Stop Asking Questions...?" - "Correcting the Record on Herminio Diaz" and my favorite, "A Few Thoughts on the Nature of Conspiracy."

blogs

There's a lot to digest in the latest edition of "Not In Your Lifetime," and as Jeff Morley said, it is the best one book on the assassination and number one on my list.

I'm also proud of the fact that Tony acknowledges my blog as a primary research source, and will later elaborate on the issues he mentions that I worked on and am familiar with - including Peter Noyes and Jim Braden and the Tippit murder.

In the meantime, NIYL 2013 is a full meal to digest but well worth it.

BK

David, I don't see any reason to delete a rational discourse, one that I don't think has played out in full. While his 9/11 book didn't satisfy many "Truthers" trying to pin the tail on the Bushes, Tony did properly label the 9/11 Commission for what it was - and elaborated on the Saudi connections when others refused to go there.

In the same vein, some conspiracy theorists are disappointed that Summers won't commit himself to any particular theory or suspect, when he tells you from the get go, that's not his game, and Not In Your Lifetime 2012 is what it is - the best objective reporting on the assassination going into the 50th year since the murder.

While I don't know his reasoning for making his decisions on what to drop or what to keep, I do know a lot about Jim Braden and other aspects of the assassination that Tony has covered, and I think he's done so exceptionally well, and that it would be good if we all payed more attention to what he has to say, rather than what he's not saying.

BK

Mr. Aynesworth has an opinion, in fact, the same opinion he has had since the assassination. I do not agree with him, but my question to Billy King, Thomas Graves,Pat Speer and Bill Davies, witheach having your opinion, is; do each of you have the same, or a different opinion/theory, as to the who and why concerning what occured in Dallas on that fateful day. The sheer number of theories is, IMO, why we have not been able to work toward getting another grand jury to look at this. I certainly, as Pat Speer indicated, do not appreciate his words: "fruitcakes and frauds". He has done a terrible injustice to the dedicated researchers who have basically spent their lives attempting to get at the truth. But we do have some whacked out theories out there, such as Bill Greer as the shooter, or the Secret Service man accidentally killing him with his Ak47. I could go on and on, but it is clear that the researchers here, which I do not begin to include myself as one, must work toward some consensus in order to counter such name calling by such people as Mr Aynesworth.

Terry,

Be assured that some people are working behind the scenes towards a grand jury investigation, its just that they are mainly internet shy, and for good reason.

As for Aynsworth, his role as a CIA asset has been well documented, but he's not just working for the opposition, he does have some investigative instincts, as his article exposing the head of the Dallas Crime Commission as a criminal on the lam using an alias and wanted for fraud. It's a great story, and its a same he didn't apply the same journalist instincts to recognize that Oswald couldn't have committed the assassination alone, or at all.

At first I thought that the 50th was the end of the game, and that not only public interest would die, but I would get out of the game.

Well now, with the upcoming media blitz, and recalling how one movie - JFK - startled a whole generation into paying attention to the assassination - I think this media blitz will do the same - and while over doing it may turn some kids off, others will become intrigued and maybe start asking questions.

There will be a major conference on the Warren Report in DC next year and maybe people will still be interested in October 2017 when they are required to release the remaining sealed files - unless the president holds them back - which means the JFK records will be a campaign issue in the next election.

New comments in red:

My comments in blue:

Dave,

In addition to Pat's comments regarding Brennan as a witness.-

You have to add to your list those witnesses who identified Oswald as Tippit's killer in the bogus lineups.

I will shed nary a tear if we toss out all the testimony of individual eyewitnesses to the JFK and Tippit slayings, and focus primarily on forensic evidence -- as my SKEPTIC article does.

As for Clinton, how do you account for eight different individuals testifying that Oswald was there?

Please read my article, or Lambert's material on Clinton and Jackson, or both. If questions still persist, I would be happy to address them.

If Lampert says they were all KKK - and all lied - then that's a crime AND a conspiracy.

BK

Please refrain from assuming premises in Lambert's work, and instead consult her work directly. Once you have familiarized yourself with the research in question, a dialogue may ensue about a variety of matters.

Dave

Sorry Dave, I based my premises on what you wrote about it, but I'm not interested in that area right now and I don't have time to familiarize myself with Pat Lambert's book, unless some one sends it to me, but I've heard conflicting reports on it. In the end you can't introduce a book as evidence in a court of law - but the fact that Tony Summers apparently finds her convincing enough to impeach the Clinton witnesses. I'm not interested in that aspect of the case at this time - though I think something happened there with Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw - and if those eight people who testified against them - if they were all KKK who lied, If that's the case, then eight people lied to the New Orleans grand jury.

I know Pat Lambert has a good reputation as a researcher and worked closely with David Lifton, and I know that the whole Clifton tale - has been investigated on the ground - by Summers, diEugenio, Davey, Lambert and others, so I don't understand why anyone who knows all that xxxxe can't put the whole Clinton Affair together in one sentence or paragraph. What was going on there?

You mean what was going on in relation to the JFK assassination? Or Oswald? Or espionage? Or sheep-dipping?

The answer is: nothing. Nothing was going on there. The whole thing was made up a few years later.

Was Oswald there? Was Ferrie there? Was Shaw there? What the hell were they doing?

No. No. No. Nothing.

What does the CORE voter registration drive have to do with anything, and what was the connection with the Cuban doctor at the hospital ?

It has nothing to do with anything. The Cuban doctor had nothing to do with anything.

If the Clinton Affair was an operation, what was its purpose?

There was no Clinton Affair of any kind until 1967, when an operation arose among some KKK types to link Oswald to the Klan's nemesis, CORE, presumably to hurt CORE. This last part is better documented in my article than in Lambert's book, due to one particular "smoking gun" document I was fortunate enough to turn up. But placing Oswald alone in Clinton would have been no help to Big Jim, so two of Garrison's suspects were injected into the story.

And what was the story with Gloria Wilson?

Now I thought I heard everything but I missed Gloria Wilson, who was mentioned at the Wecht conference and Joan Mellen told me about her.

Here's a bone for you Dave, you want to debunk a conspiracy theory and a mystery death, get a make on Gloria Wilson, a tart 18 year old from Clinton who hung out at two bars east of Baton Rouge - the Audubon and the Hawaiian Lounge - with her aunt Gladys Palmer and sometimes with Lee Harvey Oswald, and they drove a black Cadillac.

Gloria worked at Cochran's Drug Store in Jackson when she "dated" Oswald in May 1963..

While Gladys Palmer married a man named Earl Wilson and moved to Baton Rouge, Gloria Wilson, who they say kept a diary, died mysteriously, possibly murdered when she was 18. She left her diary at Cochrans, but it disappeared.

I'd like to see a photo of the 18 year old Gloria Wilson, one of the Clinton witnesses who didn't survive. Must have been a Babe.

Does Pat Lambert mention Gloria Wilson in her book?

No. Lambert apparently didn't consider the story credible, for understandable reasons. It's based entirely on third-hand hearsay and would have required Oswald to have been in East Feliciana Parish more times than seems plausible. It's discussed briefly in Joan Mellen's book, however, a book I rank in terms of credibility somewhere between Judyth's books and perhaps Robert Morrow's FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE. It's also briefly referred to in a Lancer NID DVD from an interview with NODA investigator Anne Dischler, a major source for both Lambert and Mellen.

Dave

So Dave, congratulations, you and Pat Lampert have proven a conspiracy involving Oswald - not being in Clinton, when eight upstanding citizens of Clinton, La. got together and decided to lie and perjure themselves before the New Orleans grand jury to implicate Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw.

I'll add Clinton to the list of crimes to be properly reinvestigated.

If Shaw and the Trade Mart didn't have a black Caddy, maybe there is something to the Gloria - G-L-O-R-I-A - (there's a song there) Gloria Wilson and Gladys Palmer story after all, and if Lambert thought it not worthwhile to follow up on maybe somebody should.

I'm really surprised that Fruge, a Louisiana State cop, was fooled by all those people, as I thought he was an outstanding Wrong Copper - that is he was the wrong cop to try to bribe or get to do something wrong.

As Bob Tanenbaum said at Wecht conference, "The police are the bedrock of every investigation," and in this case, we depend on the police on the scene asking questions to get it right.

Now someone with the time and inclination has to "research the hell" out of Gloria Wilson and Gladys Palmer and see if they lead anywhere.

BK

Dr. Gary North wrote the follow on his website today:

“You get to certain events, such as the Kennedy assassination, and there are incomplete records. Some of the records are inaccurate. Some of the records have been suppressed. You can establish certain kinds of patterns, such as what was going on with the CIA, or the mob, or in the morning events of Lee Harvey Oswald. The problem, above all, is this: connecting what happened in the Texas book depository with what happened, or maybe didn't happen, on the grassy knoll. It's the timing factor. If JFK was shot from behind, how was the timing coordinated with whoever shot him up from the grassy knoll? People can make all kinds of connections between Oswald and other groups, but in a few seconds, recorded on Zapruder's film, the events come together in just a few frames. The coordination of those brief sequences of causation is really inconceivable. That is what baffles historians. There are the other issues, such as what happened to Kennedy's body while it was in the airplane. But, ultimately, it is the coordination of the events of the actual shooting that has to be explained, and it resists explanation.

“I contend that virtually every event has the same problems, but most events are not worth assembling the documentation. I call it the irreducible complexity of an historical event. The event is a combination of multiple chains of causation, and every time you look in detail at these chains of causation, you cannot sort all of them out. Furthermore, there are not historical records for most of them.”

http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~anderson/PDF_files/Chaos.pdf

Thanks for that thoughtful insight Mr. Caddy, as it is so true - the details of the event have escaped - everyone - not only historians.

BK

Well, I still don't know what Cliff has to say about what happened at Fort Detrick, and look forward to his report.

As for Joe Backes and Evelyn King, from what I understand, Backes reported in his blog on a presentation made by Casey Quinlin at a JFK Lancer conference in Dallas, when CQ reported on meeting Michael Brownlow and Evelyn King on the Grassy Knoll when he took a high school class there. Casey said that King wouldn't talk to him directly but she told her story through Michael Brownlow, who was a young lad who viewed the assassination with his aunt from Houston street, and now hangs out at Dealey Plaza giving tours of assassination hot spots.

Browlow told Casey and Casey told the Lancer conference and Backes and Backes wrote it up in his blog that Evelyn King saw a Dallas cop with a rifle behind the picket fence, possibly two of them, but this is so far removed from its original source that it loses credibility.

What is needed is for Evelyn King to come forward and be properly interviewed by someone like Jeff Morley, Tony Summers or David Talbot, who we can trust to present Evelyn King's story truthfully.

If Cliff wants to be Joe Backes when he grows up, I think he's already there. You are now tall enough to get on the ride.

Congrats Cliff, you've achieved your goal, but you should have set the bar a little higher and you might have surprised yourself.

And thank you Mr. Caddy for your video of Oswald proclaiming his innocence and being framed as a Patsy, which flies in the face of all those who claim that Oswald killed JFK to seek notorety.

BK

Before I ever knew him I had a thick file on Harry Dean of documents that were released under the JFK Act. I haven't looked at it in years, but the US government records on Harry Dean are extensive, and detail his role with FPCC in Chicago, his trip(s) to Cuba and his cooperation with various domestic intelligence agencies, including the CIA and FBI, and the use of him as a informant and agent provocateur.

Besides recognizing Oswald as someone who was used - like himself - as an operative - in the same way Robert Hardy was being used in Camden to infiltrate the Camden 28, Harry Dean personally knew Hall and Howard and others who became entwined in the Dealey Plaza operation, so he is a valuable informant, especially to those who are interested in these affairs.

Since I have known Harry, I have found him to be an opinionated, but valuable source on the activities of the FPCC, JBS and other groups who were active in the Sixties and became entwined in the assassination events.

Of course if the information he knows was of no consequence he would be ignored, but it is important, so his credibility is attacked, but that's okay, everyone can make up their own minds as whether to believe Harry Dean or not. I believe him.

Bill Kelly

My comments in blue:

Dave,

In addition to Pat's comments regarding Brennan as a witness.-

You have to add to your list those witnesses who identified Oswald as Tippit's killer in the bogus lineups.

I will shed nary a tear if we toss out all the testimony of individual eyewitnesses to the JFK and Tippit slayings, and focus primarily on forensic evidence -- as my SKEPTIC article does.

As for Clinton, how do you account for eight different individuals testifying that Oswald was there?

Please read my article, or Lambert's material on Clinton and Jackson, or both. If questions still persist, I would be happy to address them.

If Lampert says they were all KKK - and all lied - then that's a crime AND a conspiracy.

BK

Please refrain from assuming premises in Lambert's work, and instead consult her work directly. Once you have familiarized yourself with the research in question, a dialogue may ensue about a variety of matters.

Dave

Sorry Dave, I based my premises on what you wrote about it, but I'm not interested in that area right now and I don't have time to familiarize myself with Pat Lambert's book, unless some one sends it to me, but I've heard conflicting reports on it. In the end you can't introduce a book as evidence in a court of law - but the fact that Tony Summers apparently finds her convincing enough to impeach the Clinton witnesses. I'm not interested in that aspect of the case at this time - though I think something happened there with Oswald, Ferrie and Shaw - and if those eight people who testified against them - if they were all KKK who lied, If that's the case, then eight people lied to the New Orleans grand jury.

I know Pat Lambert has a good reputation as a researcher and worked closely with David Lifton, and I know that the whole Clifton tale - has been investigated on the ground - by Summers, diEugenio, Davey, Lambert and others, so I don't understand why anyone who knows all that xxxxe can't put the whole Clinton Affair together in one sentence or paragraph. What was going on there?

Was Oswald there? Was Ferrie there? Was Shaw there? What the hell were they doing?

What does the CORE voter registration drive have to do with anything, and what was the connection with the Cuban doctor at the hospital ?

If the Clinton Affair was an operation, what was its purpose?

And what was the story with Gloria Wilson?

Now I thought I heard everything but I missed Gloria Wilson, who was mentioned at the Wecht conference and Joan Mellen told me about her.

Here's a bone for you Dave, you want to debunk a conspiracy theory and a mystery death, get a make on Gloria Wilson, a tart 18 year old from Clinton who hung out at two bars east of Baton Rouge - the Audubon and the Hawaiian Lounge - with her aunt Gladys Palmer and sometimes with Lee Harvey Oswald, and they drove a black Cadillac.

Gloria worked at Cochran's Drug Store in Jackson when she "dated" Oswald in May 1963..

While Gladys Palmer married a man named Earl Wilson and moved to Baton Rouge, Gloria Wilson, who they say kept a diary, died mysteriously, possibly murdered when she was 18. She left her diary at Cochrans, but it disappeared.

I'd like to see a photo of the 18 year old Gloria Wilson, one of the Clinton witnesses who didn't survive. Must have been a Babe.

Does Pat Lambert mention Gloria Wilson in her book?

Good stuff Chris, And thanks for your input Dave,

I wonder if any of this can be linked to the Presidential Executive Order of September 24 - that JFK signed - regarding Project Four Leaves - establishing a national communications system?

P. 49

“…On 5 September JCS asked DDR&E and the Weapons Systems Evaluation Group to participate on a JCRG Standards Committee to carry out JCS responsibilities for preparing common terms and reporting formats for the National Military Command System….”

The Altarnate NCC

(S-Gp3) The Alternate National Military Command Center (ANMCC) was part of a large complex that included the Alternate Joint Communications Center, Ft. Ritchie, and numerous subsystems. Site ‘R’ of this complex, located underground in the Blue Ridge summit at Raven Rock, contained five buildings. The ANMCC and Presidential quarters were in Building D.* *(S-Gp3) Building D, especiall designed to meet ANMCC needs, was completed in 1964.

p. 49

“(S-Gp 1) A permanent UHF ground terminal at Waldorf, Md., served as the primary communications link between the NEACP, the NMCC/ANMCC and the Navy alternate (NECPA). Established early in 1962 the Waldorf station became fully operational the following December with 12 UHF/AM channels. In addition three mobile communication vans were set up in 1962 – at Otis AFB, Mass., Greenville, S.C., and Homestead AFB, Fla. – to cover the routes most traveled by the Presidential aircraft. The Air Force always air lifted a van-housed grand terminal whenever the President journeyed outside the range of the above-listed terminals. 4

After President Kennedy’s assassination, the Otis and Homestead vans were relocated at Jackson, Miss.,

Got it David, that's great stuff. I recognize most of it; I worked Air Force Communications Service handling AUTOVON voice switching equipment fed off Tropo. so I'm not that familiar with the radio gear. Separate personnel handled the radio and then we had tech controllers in between the radio and land line circuits. We just worried about switching.

Anyway, that's exactly what I expected would be the long distance SSB gear. Per discussion with Bill I'm still assuming that AF1 would have had to have at least four SSB sets to hold up four long distance circuits. Also, if all four were at Andrews that would be four units there with a tape recorder on each for that channel. Which really means multiple tapes, one for each voice channel.

Let me know if that sounds stupid...grin, Larry

Larry,

I can see it too!

Somewhere there's a wall with three or four 1/2 inch thick tape recorders going - and they're recording the AF1 and other SAM radio communications that JFK had ordered they be recorded - so we know for a fact that they were ordered recorded and were in fact recorded by WHCA - and have knowledge of transcripts of same.

I think that these tapes and transcripts still exist - if we look for them in the right places - and really pin xxxxx them about it -

And if we force them to dig deeper, whatever they come up with will be something.

BK

Bill, do you know where the Specialist First Class who was attempting to work the circuit was located - it sounds like he was not on AF1 but was trying to set up secure comm but the AF1 techs were too busy with voice circuits to attend to the teletype - which is pretty interesting since apparently the teletype was on the only secure circuit - which would be the military command and control circuit.

It will also help us understand if the secure equipment was on a relatively short range UHF circuit or a much longer range SSB circuit.

-- Larry

Radiomen After Action Reports lists Carrigan as "Communications Center Washington DC" -

From what I can gather - those in the radio loop - they later called Mystic Star - are:

1) White House - Crown

2) White House Situation Room -

3) Liberty Station - "Fish Bowl" - Collins Radio HQ Cedar Rapids, Iowa

4) Andrews Air Force Base - A big place -

5) Command Post - SAM - Strategic Air Mission - Andrews

6) Air Force One - Four radios each on different frequency - Pilot (Swindal), Radioman (Trimble), office phone at desk, bedroom phone.

7) VP Plane

8) 86972 Cabinet Plane

9) Cargo Plane -

10) Dallas White House - Dallas Sheraton - w/Links to Trade Mart, Parkland (See: Bales)

11) Secret Service Office Executive Office Building (EOB - Gerald Behn?)

12) State Department -

13) Pentagon - Command Post?

14) Other

The above are those radios that are on the AF1 radio tapes - though there are probably others - Brandywine, Weather Mountain, etc.

All of these interesting reports should be read closely as they make many fine details and give you an idea of how people responded to the assassination. While I think Bales' report is probably the most important - Trimble's is fascinating. And while I haven't confirmed this yet, I think Trimble is still alive and was a source for the Esquire article "Flight From Dallas."

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/03/whca-comm-center-after-action-reports.html

CWO Arthur W. Bales, Jr.

WHCA Trip Officer for Presidential Visit to Dallas, Texas

SSG Brazell, Chief Switchboard Operator

White House Switchboard in Dallas, Texas

MSG Tarbell, Chief Switchboard Operator

Signal Switchboard, Washington, D.C.

SFB Carriger, Chief Operator,

Communications Center, Washington D.C.

SP4 Witte, Operator, Communications Center

Washington D.C.

SGT Bodenstiner, Operator, Communications Center,

Washington D.C.

MSG John Trimble, Radio Operator

Aboard AF-1 for flight from Dallas, Texas to Washington D.C.

After an overnight at Ft. Worth, Air Force One departed Carswell AFB at 1125 AM (Local Time) for Dallas. After a short flight we arrived at Dallas and blocked in at 1140 AM.

After the rain storm of the previous night the sun seemed particularly bright as the President and First Lady deplaned to the warm greeting of what was probably the largest crowd of the Texas tour. The Last we were to see of them together was when they departed the airport in their open car.

The first indication that anything was amiss came when one of the WHCA representatives, Theron Burgess, who was on duty at the airport, told me that someone in the motorcade had been hurt. My first reaction was that one of the Secret Service Agents had fallen from the car. About 15 minutes later we were told the ready the airplane for immediate take-off. At this time we were not told why we were leaving or what our destination would be. No information was forthcoming at this time and since we at least needed a destination for flight clearance purpose Col. Swindal asked me to check with the switchboard. After identifying myself to the switchboard operator he told me that the President had been shot and that no other information was available. This was relayed to Col. Swindal although he had just heard it himself from another source.

My communications equipment had been on since receiving the immediate take-off order. I had cleared a voice and teletype frequency with Andrews Airways. Even though I was using the call sign AF 26000 and could not tell the reason for clearing a voice frequency, Andrews cooperated fully. I was making periodic signal checks with Andrews when someone entered the airplane and said the President was dead.

All the chatter ceased and I think we were all numb and did out jobs automatically as we waited --- waited for the body to arrive from the hospital; waited for President Johnson; and finally for the judge to arrive and perform the swearing-in ceremony.

We departed Dallas at 1447 Dallas time for the three hour flight to Washington.

I was busy every minute of the trip and had three phone patches going simultaneously for much of the time. The normal HF air to ground communications had to yield to higher priority traffic. Some position reports were sent, some were not. Quite a bit of time was spent by Dr. Burkley and General Clifton in the air and General Heaton on the ground concerning removal and preparation of the body after reaching Andrews.

My circuits were in continuous use and Andrews always had a waiting list of various officials who wanted to communicate with the airplane. Due to the limited facilities on both ends, many times I had to decide who we would talk with next. I had a good knowledge of the Kennedy team and don’t think I made any mistakes in this respect.

We had been cleared to an altitude of 29,000 feet upon leaving Dallas. I was able to send one of the few position reports over Nashville and found that we were then at 41,000 feet because of winds and weather.

About this time I received a call from the rear of the plane saying that President Johnson wanted a phone patch with Mrs. Rose Kennedy. I immediately seized my best frequency and placed the call through Andrews and the WHCA switchboard. A short time later both the President and Mrs. Johnson offered their condolences to Mrs. Rose Kennedy. These Mrs. Kennedy accepted in a strong, clear voice.

A few minutes later I placed a call, again through the WHCA switchboard to the wife of Governor Connely in Dallas. Both the President and the First Lady talked with Mrs. Connely and assured her that the Governor would be all right.

The rest of the flight was about as hectic as the first. We landed at Andrews and blocked in at 1805 local time.

A large crowd and many bright lights were visible when the doors were opened. Mrs. Kennedy was scheduled to leave by another exit but insisted on being lowered to the ramp with the remains. She entered the ambulance and accompanied the body out of sight.

After President Johnson made his very short talk and departed, I remember thinking what irony that this terrible thing had to happen at all --- but to have it happen in the United States. Somehow it was still unbelievable.

JOHN C. TRIMBLE MSGT, WHCA

Bill,

Just wondering what your post just above this means- it quotes me, but there is no quote, and no response from you.

Hi Don,

I was responding to your post - just going to say that I think we should let Tony Summers answer some of the questions posted, and not let Dave Reitzes answer them, when Tony himself posted a response.

So I didn't want to detract from what Tony was saying and tried to delete the post.

I think that each of the items that Tony decided to leave out of his update are worth discussing, and while Tony had deadlines and page limits, we aren't so confied and can, in Tony's words, "research the hell out of it," and come to some firm conclusions.

For instance, if Pat Lampert is correct in that the whole story of Oswald being in Clinton with Ferrie and Shaw can be challenged by demonstrating that eight witnesses who place them there - were KKK and lied - then that is a crime to lie before the Grand Jury that indicted shaw - and it is proof of a conspiracy - at least among those eight people.

I first came into this case on the heels of Jim Braden being arrested at Dealey Plaza and Camden NJ, and though Tony says he is "not a good guy," I don't think he was a violent person, his background indicates that he was a gambler, golfer, swindler and confidence man who seduced wealthy widows - including the widow of the founder of Magnolia Oil - and find it interesting that Oswald met the Paines at a Magnolia Oil party that had nothing to do with Braden. But Braden was taken into custody at Dealey Plaza, not properly investigated, and when questioned by the HSCA, his testimony sealed and locked away - even though Braden himself wanted it released. When it was finally released - we learn that Braden lived in New Orleans in the summer of '63, a very interesting place at the time, and worked out of the office of an oil man on the same floor of the same building as Marcello's attorney - G. Ray Gill. More coincidences piling up. There's more to Jim Braden than meets the eye, but he didn't shoot JFK, as some have alleged.

We can go down Tony's list of subjects left out of the new update, or we can discuss the many new things that he does include in his fine book - the best of the lot in my opinion.

BK

Dave,

In addition to Pat's comments regarding Brennan as a witness.-

You have to add to your list those witnesses who identified Oswald as Tippit's killer in the bogus lineups.

As for Clinton, how do you account for eight different individuals testifying that Oswald was there?

If Lampert says they were all KKK - and all lied - then that's a crime AND a conspiracy.

BK

Since Dave Reitzes has brought up this subject again, in relation to Tony Summers reading Pat Lambert's book and deciding the Clinton incident not worth including in his updated book, I thought I would revive this thread.

For starters, if Pat Lambert shows that eight witnesses from Clinton lied to the grand jury that indicted Clay Shaw, then that's called perjury, and they lied under oath.

In addition, she then proves there was a conspiracy, as they had to get their stories straight if they all lied.

Something happened in Clinton, La., something that involved Oswald and probably Shaw and Ferrie, and I'd like someone who figured it all out to explain it.

And I also recently learned that there was a young teenage girl from Clinton who knew Oswald and died suspiciously, does anyone know anything more about her?

BK