William Kelly

KW7 - TWX - ?

Bill,

KW-7

A crypto system known by the code name Orestes, employed a device called the KW-7...

http://www.knobstick.ca/museum/kw7.htm

“During return flight of AF-1 from Dallas, we were working the aircraft via KW-7. The operator aboard the aircraft was so busy that he could not attend the CKT.” - Specialist First Class Carriger

KW-7 (Orestes) http://jproc.ca/crypto/kw7.html

The Orestes crypto system employed the KW-7. It was an on-line, send/receive crypto unit installed in shore stations and aboard ships. In one application, it was used for ship to shore and for intership radioteletype communications. To send messages over a secure UHF teletype circuit, a model 28 Teletype or reader (T-D) sent the prepared message to the KW-7 which in turn keyed a UHF transmitter in the AM mode. Note, that the KW-7 was not a totally synchronous unit, therefore, it required a phasing signal to be sent in order to attain a lock on the received signal. top. The circuitry was all solid-state and fit in a fairly rugged housing that featured a Tempest-sealed lid on top, removable for servicing. The KW-7 was also used aboard aircraft such as EC/RC-135's.

SETTING THE DAILY KEY

THE WIRE CORD VERSION

The original KW-7 had 30 fixed wires coming out of the bottom half of the key area. Using a daily key list, the operator plugged the wires into the top half a flat block. Many operators joked that part of the KW-7 course consisted of basket weaving since that seemed to be a prerequisite skill for this task. The task of coding the plugblocks was sometimes referred to as knitting. The wires were about 14 to 18 inches long and it took forever to get them all plugged in and still be able to close the door over top of them. There were metal loops provided to help shorten the slack but it was still difficult to get them packed in.

Many a time, a KW-7 used in flying command posts for TTY traffic would be pulled in for maintenance only to discover there were little black loops of wire hanging outside of the edge of the locked door because it was such a tight fit inside. This was frowned on since the purpose of the gasket was to reduce Tempest......

It's not refuting what Dale Myers has to say, it's adding what he leaves out and doesn't tell you.

Myers relegates to a footnote, the incredible tale of Wes Wise and Carl Mather, and dismisses the fact that Oswald was seen driving Mather's Plymouth in the neighborhood of the murder of Mather's good friend J.D. Tippit.

And there was a Plymouth at the scene of Tippit's murder, and did those who later identified Oswald as the fleeing killer see Oswald or the guy who impersonated Oswald at Top Ten Records and beer and candy store that morning?

How come Oswald denied owning a rifle but acknowledged owning the pistol? How come the bullets found in Tippit couldn't be traced to that pistol? Where did the bullets come from?

And the shells found at the scene didn't match the bullet make? What is that all about?

Dale Myers may have convinced Tony Summers that Oswald shot Tippit based on the ballistics that match the shells found at the scene to the gun Oswald had on him, but where did the five unspent bullets come from that were found in Oswald's pockets over an hour after his arrest? The bullets that had spent considerable time in a leather holster.

And what was the story about the shooting of the car dealer who was a witness?

And did anybody look into to the IBM employees who were in the shoe store when Tippit's killer ducked in?

And did the ticket girl really later break down and cry and admit that she sold a ticket to Oswald earlier?

And did the popcorn guy actually say he sold some pop corn to Oswald who went up to the balcony?

And what happened to the official list of theater witnesses?

And who was the guy they took out the back door?

And how come Oswald has three wallets?

And what's the contents of the wallets again?

And Det. Bently - the cigar chomping planesclothes cop who escorted Oswald out of the theater,

what was his tie to ONI and the "extensive files ONI kept on Oswald."

By the way, that was one document Tony wouldn't use - the ONI document from San Diego, telling Bentley ONI had a big file on Oswald.

Well since Tony decided not to use it, we located the origin of that letter and forum members confirmed it, and I'm sure that if you go down Tony's list you will find that some of them if not many of them will someday be confirmed.

It's not the facts of Dale Myers book that I take issue with, its his conclusions that the most significant items in evidence in the case are not important.

BK

Sounds like Bill Kelly has his mind made up about a lot of things, even things he could have reasonably figured out from what I already mentioned in my post -- like reasons to be skeptical of Oswald sightings. In other cases -- IBM employees? -- Bill's curiosity seems a little overactive to me. (Consider posting your IBM file from the email list, Bill. It's a classic.)

Perhaps one of the reasons Anthony Summers has always been one of the most respected of all conspiracy-oriented authors, however he and I may disagree about some issues, is that he is not only an accomplished investigative journalist, but he seems to be uncommonly open-minded as well, and perfectly willing to challenge preconceptions on any side of the issue. But being open-minded can get you in trouble with people whose minds are made up already.

What's important is that so long as Bill Kelly has questions that haven't been answered to his satisfaction, there MUST have been a conspiracy, right?

HI DAVE, AS LONG AS THERE ARE QUESTIONS, WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO SEARCH FOR ANSWERS. YOU SEEM TO AVE ALL THE ANSWERS AND CAN'T SEEM TO PUT TOGETHER TWO SENTENCES WITHOUT SAYING THE WORD CONSPIRACY.

And as long as 9/11 Truthers have questions about 9/11, then 9/11 must have been an inside job, right?

NOW THERE YOU GO - DAVE - TRYING TO BRAND ME A 9/11 TRUTHER - YOU'RE THE INSIDE JOB.

And as long as creationists have questions about evolution, then there's no way in hell that any of us evolved from a common ancestor along with monkeys, right?

THERE WAS A STUDY MENTIONED IN PITTSBURGH OF TRUTHERS, CREATIONISTS, HOLOCAUST DENIERS, GLOBAL WARMING DENIERS AND LONE NUTTERS - ALL HAVING AN EQUAL PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION - LONE NUTTERS ARE THE EXTREMIST NOT CONSPIRACY THEORISTS

This is known as argumentum ad ignorantiam, or the argument from ignorance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Basically it says, if you can't disprove everything I say, then I must be right.

Author and SKEPTIC publisher Michael Shermer has summed up the contrary position: "Unexplained is not inexplicable." Shermer observes, "Many people are overconfident enough to think that if THEY cannot explain something, it must be inexplicable..." Shermer is talking about the natural world, but it applies equally well to conspiracy theories. I discuss this in an article at my website:

http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk-fringe.html

I didn't start this thread to argue about whether there was a conspiracy in J.D. Tippit's death or anyone else's, but Bill seems to get positively apoplectic when a highly respected conspiracy-oriented author like Anthony Summers says that he thinks Dale Myers has refuted some of the arguments Summers himself made in earlier editions of his book.

DAVE, THE TOPIC IS MYERS AND HIS WORK - AND I SAY HE DOESN'T TELL THE WHOLE STORY - AND MYERS HASN'T REFUTED ANYTHING

Take it up with Tony Summers, Bill. I happen to know you have his email address.

ME AND TONY ARE COOL, YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SEEMS TO WANT TO ANOINT DALE MYERS THE POPE OF OAK CLIFF, AND I'M JUST SAYING HE'S LEFT THE BEST PART OUT AND YOU'LL JUST HAVE TO GET IT SOMEWHERE ELSE, AS DALE'S NOT GOING TO TELL YOU THE WHOLE STORY.

Dave

It's not refuting what Dale Myers has to say, it's adding what he leaves out and doesn't tell you.

Myers relegates to a footnote, the incredible tale of Wes Wise and Carl Mather, and dismisses the fact that Oswald was seen driving Mather's Plymouth in the neighborhood of the murder of Mather's good friend J.D. Tippit.

And there was a Plymouth at the scene of Tippit's murder, and did those who later identified Oswald as the fleeing killer see Oswald or the guy who impersonated Oswald at Top Ten Records and beer and candy store that morning?

How come Oswald denied owning a rifle but acknowledged owning the pistol? How come the bullets found in Tippit couldn't be traced to that pistol? Where did the bullets come from?

And the shells found at the scene didn't match the bullet make? What is that all about?

Dale Myers may have convinced Tony Summers that Oswald shot Tippit based on the ballistics that match the shells found at the scene to the gun Oswald had on him, but where did the five unspent bullets come from that were found in Oswald's pockets over an hour after his arrest? The bullets that had spent considerable time in a leather holster.

And what was the story about the shooting of the car dealer who was a witness?

And did anybody look into to the IBM employees who were in the shoe store when Tippit's killer ducked in?

And did the ticket girl really later break down and cry and admit that she sold a ticket to Oswald earlier?

And did the popcorn guy actually say he sold some pop corn to Oswald who went up to the balcony?

And what happened to the official list of theater witnesses?

And who was the guy they took out the back door?

And how come Oswald has three wallets?

And what's the contents of the wallets again?

And Det. Bently - the cigar chomping planesclothes cop who escorted Oswald out of the theater,

what was his tie to ONI and the "extensive files ONI kept on Oswald."

By the way, that was one document Tony wouldn't use - the ONI document from San Diego, telling Bentley ONI had a big file on Oswald.

Well since Tony decided not to use it, we located the origin of that letter and forum members confirmed it, and I'm sure that if you go down Tony's list you will find that some of them if not many of them will someday be confirmed.

It's not the facts of Dale Myers book that I take issue with, its his conclusions that the most significant items in evidence in the case are not important.

BK

I refer you to:

http://anthonysummersandrobbynswan.wordpress.com

in which Tony expresses his opinions "On When to Stop Asking Questions...?" - "Correcting the Record on Herminio Diaz" and my favorite, "A Few Thoughts on the Nature of Conspiracy."

There's a lot to digest in the latest edition of "Not In Your Lifetime," and as Jeff Morley said, it is the best one book on the assassination and number one on my list.

I'm also proud of the fact that Tony acknowledges my blog as a primary research source, and will later elaborate on the issues he mentions that I worked on and am familiar with - including Peter Noyes and Jim Braden and the Tippit murder.

In the meantime, NIYL 2013 is a full meal to digest but well worth it.

BK

http://acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_issue/jfk_spch.html

JFK: The Undelivered Speech - What follows is quote from the beginning of the text of the speech President Kennedy was to deliver in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

JFK: "I am honored to have this invitation to address the Dallas Citizens Council joined by the members of the Dallas Assembly - and pleased to have this opportunity to salute the Graduate Research Center of the Southwest...I congratulate those of you here in Dallas who recognized these basic facts through the creation of the unique and forward looking Graduate Research Center....This link between leadership and learning is not only essential at the community level, it is indispensable in world affairs. Ignorance and misinformation can handicap progress....and this country's security."

From what I can gather off the cuff, the Dallas Graduate Research Center, where Art Collins was on the board and closely associated, was originally a company called Geophysical Services, Inc., a company that was purchased with men of incredible foresight on December 6, 1941 - Eugene McDermott, Cecil Howard Green, Erick Jonsson and A. Earl Cullum, Jr., which metamorphosed into the General Industries Division that in 1951 became Texas Instruments.

Around that time, it was decided - as a national policy - to break up security industries into different areas of the country - the major defense contractors that constructed high security defense products moved to different geographic areas - one of which was to be Dallas-Fort Worth, so all of a sudden a number of big defense contractors showed up - including Bell Helicopter (with Michael Paine in tow), Collins Radio and other defense contractors relocated some of their production to Texas. But there was a severe need for young engineers, and they had to be recruited from out of state - until they began their own engineering student factory - the Graduate Research Center, 1961.

Originally based at the Fondren Science Library at Southern Methodist University, and affiliated with the Lab on Earth and Planetary Sciences - Founders Building, it is now part of the University of Texas at Dallas and known as the Southwest Center for Advance Sciences (SCAS).

So JFK knew what these guys were up to and begins his Undelivered speech by mentioning the Graduate Research Center, which was being spearheaded by Arthur A. Collins of Collins Radio, Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Some of Arthur Collins and Collins Radio company records have been archived at the University of Iowa (Cedar Rapids, Library), and the company affiliated RockwellCollins Museum has a neat inventory of Collins products that we can check out.

And all of this reminds me that LBJ originally arranged for Texas Christian University (?) to invite JFK to Dallas to receive an honorary degree, but then the offer was rescinded by the university board of trustees, and that was a major embarrassment to the city - as JFK had to have an official reason for being there - and technically they had to mix the politicking with official business - usually with the military as an excuse - such as inspecting a base or new weapon. In any case, the official reason for JFK to go to Dallas was suddenly withdrawn, and they quickly got Plan B - together - the sponsors as mentioned in the first paragraph of JFK's speech, and the purpose of the annual luncheon was to honor the Graduate Research Center.

So I imagine Art Collins, a director of the GRC, was at the Trade Mart waiting for JFK to deliver the speech, as was the director of Texas Instruments.

www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/25th_issue/jfk_speech.html

If that link doesn't work just search for JFK's Undelivered Speech.

I think that JFK's copy of this speech, kept in his sports coat pocket, was found bloodied. I wonder if that bloody copy was preserved?

This link may help ID some of that equipment. It's Navy "oriented" but I'm not sure that matters too much.

http://www.virhistory.com/navy/index.htm

Maybe the site admin may be some help?

The current issues of Esquire "Flight From Dallas" - and Washingtonian Magazine "Angel is Airborne," are generating considerable interest in the AF1 radio tapes, and I believe the author of the Esquire article interviewed radioman Trimble, whose After Action report is among these:

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/05/a6-radioman-whca-after-action-reports.html

I think they are some pretty riveting reports, as Trimble ends his, 'unbelievable.'

In today's world of cell phones, satellites and drones, its kind of hard to imagine them using short wave HAM radios to communicate over public airwaves, but they did, and anybody with the right equipment and the frequency could listen in, and did. There was a group of civilian amateur HAM radio buffs out of Colorado who made it a hobby of listening in to SAM - Special Air Mission radio communications - which went under the name "Mystic Star."

I believe that an amateur HAM radio buff may have tape recorded many of the radio communications that are missing from the existing AF1 radio tapes - and these recordings are just out there, their owners not realizing they have missing pieces to the big puzzle.

They were using a Collins Radio sideband radio equipment and using frequencies set by the Collins HQ radio station "Liberty" - aka "Fish Bowl."

I believe they make mention of a KW7 - ? and a TWX - ?

I have something on the KW7. Must be 1963 era.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2008/01/collins-radio-connections.html

I don't know if any of these links work, but will check them and correct them if necessary.

Over and out.

Chris, I think you're on the right track.

Arthur Collins, while a young student, built his own short wave radio set that could communicate with the US Navy expedition to the South Pole led by Admiral Richard Byrd, the cousin of Harold Byrd, owner of the TSBD building on November 22, 1963.

Working out of his parent's garage in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, Collins built radios that were simple to assemble and durable, and when World War II began, his company began to receive government-military contracts that continue today.

After the war Collins met another HAM radio enthusiast Curtis LeMay, who had Collins address a military gathering in the early 1950s, and Collins received the contracts to serve the Strategic Air Command (SAC) bombers and the Special Air Mission (SAM) that serviced the top administration officials and generals.

In 1962 Arthur Collins became a director of a Texas graduate research center in Dallas, which was the state of the art of research at the time - and I believe that it is mentioned in JFK's Undelivered Speech that he was to make that day, so JFK - at least his top aides who prepared his speech, were aware of Collins and his research, so maybe so should we.

KW7 - TWX - ?

The implications of just having Martino's name written as a notation means someone said it, most likely Oswald and that is earth shattering.

If a conspiratorial name is going to be mentioned that Oswald would know, then Martino makes perfect sense. He ties to all levels of the actual conspiracy from David Morales down to the Cuban exile shooters.

I agree with Larry, Fitz and Co. knew more about the conspiracy than they publically admitted and that information would have come from Oswald, including the name John Martino.

I believe more attention should be given to what Ellis said. Zach's post above is a vital one with serious implications.

Nice pix James,

I wrote an article on JFK in Atlantic City that makes mention of Martino's early roots.

Is there any background to that photo of Martino?

BK

From where I am sitting, not always in the best position to judge, I don't think Oswald was in his room long enough to change anything, shirts or pants, and he just picked up pistol, sans holster, and jacket. I don't think he changed his pants or shirt, and the shirt he was arrested in is the same shirt he had on when he didn't kill JFK. Just my opinion that doesn't mean jack.

BK

This link may help ID some of that equipment. It's Navy "oriented" but I'm not sure that matters too much.

http://www.virhistory.com/navy/index.htm

Maybe the site admin may be some help?

The current issues of Esquire "Flight From Dallas" - and Washingtonian Magazine "Angel is Airborne," are generating considerable interest in the AF1 radio tapes, and I believe the author of the Esquire article interviewed radioman Trimble, whose After Action report is among these:

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/05/a6-radioman-whca-after-action-reports.html

I think they are some pretty riveting reports, as Trimble ends his, 'unbelievable.'

In today's world of cell phones, satellites and drones, its kind of hard to imagine them using short wave HAM radios to communicate over public airwaves, but they did, and anybody with the right equipment and the frequency could listen in, and did. There was a group of civilian amateur HAM radio buffs out of Colorado who made it a hobby of listening in to SAM - Special Air Mission radio communications - which went under the name "Mystic Star."

I believe that an amateur HAM radio buff may have tape recorded many of the radio communications that are missing from the existing AF1 radio tapes - and these recordings are just out there, their owners not realizing they have missing pieces to the big puzzle.

They were using a Collins Radio sideband radio equipment and using frequencies set by the Collins HQ radio station "Liberty" - aka "Fish Bowl."

I believe they make mention of a KW7 - ? and a TWX - ?

I have something on the KW7. Must be 1963 era.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2008/01/collins-radio-connections.html

I don't know if any of these links work, but will check them and correct them if necessary.

Over and out.

Well, its quite clear that a lot of people talk about the medical evidence and dont' know what they are talking about.

Care to be specific? What exactly don't I know?

I'd be happy to debate Wecht any day.

Pat Speer knows better than to go down that road.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW AND DON'T CARE.

YOU CAN DEBATE YOURSELF AS WECHT WON'T GIVE YOU THE TIME OF DAY

PAT KNOWS MORE THAN I DO ABOUT THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE AND KNOWS BETTER THAN TO EVEN ENGAGE IN COVERSATION WITH YOU.

i will believe Cyril and Pat - though they often don't agree, but I'll listen to them before i will pay attention to you anymore.

When did you pay attention to me in the first place?

BY EVEN RESPPONDING TO YOU I AM PAYING ATTENTION, BUT YOU KEEP REPEATING YOURSELF

While the case you make is simple enough and good example of the types of evidence being ignored, it is not going to break the case.

So I make a simple case providing a good example of the types of evidence being ignored.

GAETON FONZI DID THE SAME THING DECADES AGO AND NOW HES DEAD AND GONE AND WE'RE STILL HERE ARGUING ABOUT IT

But because that case will not, by itself, bring the perps to justice it should be ignored...?

Is that what you're saying?

I DIDN'T SAY IT SHOULD BE IGNORED, I JUST SAID THAT THERE IS MORE EVIDENCE IN THE CASE THAT IS MORE CONVINCING

How many of the perps are still alive to face justice, anyway?

MY GOAL ISN'T TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE - THAT'S THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB - I JUST WANT TO CONFRONT THEM

I have listened to you and have taken the time to respond and all you do is insult me and my friends.

I present original research and cogent criticism. You and your friends are not above being criticized, Bill.

WHAT'S YOUR ORIGINAL RESARCH - HAVEN'T SEEN THAT YET? WHAT HAPPENED TO FORT DETRICK?

AND ME AND MY FRIENDS ARE AWAITING COGENT CRITICISM - NOT SOMEONE SAYING WE HAVE OUR HEADS UP OUR ARSE

The basic evidence you site I have reviewed, and reviewed again, and then moved on while you keep at it.

Excuse me?

You only read Senseney's testimony a few days ago!

AND I'M NOT DONE WITH SENSENEY YET. DID HE ACTUALLLY SAY THEY HAD STORED SHELLFISH TOXINS AT A REMOTE SITE NEAR THE JFK CENTER?

NOW THAT'S REALLY FASCINATING IF TRUE.

You haven't seen my entire argument, since you obviously don't read my posts.

I DO READ YOUR POSTS AND AM RESPONDING TO YOU RIGHT NOW WHEN I HAVE BETTER THIGNS TO DO

Okay, you keep at it, but my purpose at this time and place is to attempt to identify and locate new or previously unknown documents and witnesses and attempt to get them on the record, and I have been pretty successful to date.

You didn't know George Ball and W. Averell Harriman -- the two guys most responsible for ramming Cable 243 down Kennedy's throat -- were the top two government officials in Washington DC that afternoon.

Did you?

I think that fact is more significant than anything you'll ever dig up, Bill.

FROM THE AF1 TAPES WE KNOW THAT LBJ DIDN'T WANT TO MEET WITH BALL WHEN HE GOT BACK TO DC, BUT ENDED UP MEETING HIM ANYWAY.

You can argue with people on the internet, insult them and me and call people names, and do it in the name of the kids, but I'm going to call you out on it when you are wrong, and you are wrong.

Wrong about what? The Rabbit Hole Digging Machine a/k/a the JFK Assassination Critical Research Community?

YOU ARE WRONG THAT THE BEST APPROACH TO THE ASSASSINTION IS TO CALL PEOPLE NAMES AND ARGUE ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET

When it comes to the medical evidence 95% of the discussion concerns things we cannot know -- how many times was he shot in the head? Was there pre-autopsy surgery to the head?

Since we cannot know the answer to those questions, why the overwhelming obsession with the head wounds?

BECAUASE THAT'S WHAT KILLED HIM AND THE MOTION OF THE JFK'S HEAD IN THE Z-FILM IS THE NUMBER ONE FACT THAT CONVINCES MOST PEOPLE THERE WAS A SHOT FROM THE FRONT AND THUS A CONSPIRACY

You want to insult those who attended and made presentations at the Wecht conference you should have been there.

Why? I made a big deal ahead of time that these crucial issues -- which you acknowledge have been ignored -- would not be addressed at Wecht.

THEY WERE ADDRESSED AT WECHT. I TOLD YOU WECHT HIMSELF ASKED THE SAME QUESTIONS YOU DO.

I was right.

Charles Barkley once said of basketball beat writers -- "The more they watch the game the less they understand it."

AND CHOCHOLATE THUNDER WAS A SELF-OBSESSED IDIOT

Same is true of a lot of JFK assassination researchers -- the longer they study the case the less they understand it.

I LEARN SOMETHING NEW EVERY DAY AND NEVER CLAIMED TO UNDERSTAND IT

AND MOST REAL RESEARCHERS WON'T BOTHER POSTING ON FORUMS BECAUSE OF SELF-OBSESSED POSTERS WHO CONTINUALLY REPEAT THEMSELVES

AND ROBERT, YOU ARE WRONG TOO FOR HARPING ON THE SAME FEW ISSUES OVER AND OVER.

BK

One of the elements that has to go into this equation is that the Castro Did It theme was reintroduced again and again during the two months following the assassination. It

was not something that was "shut down" immediately by anyone. You find it all over the place, coming from either Cuban exiles or particularly from CIA officers working with

the exiles. The FBI was quite interested in some of the leads and Hoover even asked permission to put something in the FBI report about foreign influence since he was still

looking for Cuban involvement....and Martino was feeding a chain of reports upstream through the Miami field office.

Another element, that will become clearer once Bill Simpich gets his book out, is that the highest levels in Washington had a major worry over the weekend following the

assassination, and that was that US intelligence officers or someone who had gotten inside information from them about Lee Oswald had been involved in linking Oswald to

Castro and Cuba in Mexico City. It would have been the same concern that JMWAVE had when Shackley ordered a secret investigation of exile involvement and then suppressed

the reports. And in the end, it would have been the same thing David Phillips admitted to not long before his death when he admitted that a conspiracy involving American

intelligence officers had occurred. I'll leave that to Bill, but starting on Saturday morning and going on over the weekend, there was ample reason to suspect that any

true investigation of the murder would not lead to Castro but rather to something domestic...and the notes from the national security level meetings on that are gone...we know

the subject was discussed but the content of the discussion never went on record..of course few real deep national security discussions ever do, its all verbal.

BUMP

Well, its quite clear that a lot of people talk about the medical evidence and dont' know what they are talking about.

i will believe Cyril and Pat - though they often don't agree, but I'll listen to them before i will pay attention to you anymore.

While the case you make is simple enough and good example of the types of evidence being ignored, it is not going to break the case.

I have listened to you and have taken the time to respond and all you do is insult me and my friends.

The basic evidence you site I have reviewed, and reviewed again, and then moved on while you keep at it.

Okay, you keep at it, but my purpose at this time and place is to attempt to identify and locate new or previously unknown documents and witnesses and attempt to get them on the record, and I have been pretty successful to date.

You can argue with people on the internet, insult them and me and call people names, and do it in the name of the kids, but I'm going to call you out on it when you are wrong, and you are wrong.

You want to insult those who attended and made presentations at the Wecht conference you should have been there.

Now i'm going to leave the kids to you and others, and move on to other, more important matters.

I object to anyone saying that those who were at the conference has their head up their butt.

No, has their head in JFK's head wounds. That didn't apply to you at this conference, right?

Why would it seem silly to grey beards that a ice bullet would be used, when the same notion was expressed more than once?

Because every time the subject is raised the grey-beards bring up Dick Tracy, Get Smart and James Bond.

The kids are not shackled to this 60's-based pop culture bias.

As David Talbot put it, JFK said in his inaugural speech that the torch has been passed to the next generation, and then when he was killed it was passed back to the old generation - LBJ, Nixon, Reagan.....

I met Zach and Steve Rosen at the Wecht Conference, and I think they are the next generation of researchers and I have much faith in them, as well as Will Paris, who is writing an essay or article on the subject of the next generation.

Anyone who is obsessed with one piece of evidence is the one who misguided and easily dismissed.

You haven't mustered up one single argument with which to dismiss me.

Neither you or anyone else in this so-called Community can come here and make a fact-based, collegial argument against anything I post.

I admit I am old and gray and will not be doing this very much longer - but I'm doing what I can, and not just sitting back at my computer complaining about everyone else ignoring the holes like CV seems to do.

It's not only the clothing holes you guys are ignoring, it's the central issue of his killing you guys tap dance around.

Your questions were raised, by Cyril Wecht in his opening remarks, and it was discussed a number of times throughout the conference.

You should have been there.

I don't disagree with your assertions, I just think that they aren't the only ones, and since I'm not into the medical evidence, I leave that to others.

I just disagree with your continually bringing this up over and over and over again.

What are the possible answers to your questions?

Why can't you pursue your answers on your own, why do you insist that others answer them, and why me, someone who knows nothing about the medical evidence?

Before Gary Mack gets all bent out of shape over this, I'll explain where the 240 minute figure comes from.

The time it took for AF1 to fly from Love Field, Dallas to Andrews AFB, Maryland was two hours seventeen minutes.

There were probably four short wave sideband radios on the plane, one used by the pilot, and three in the radio shack - on which Master Sgt. Trimble said "I had three phone patches going simultaneously most of the time."

Doug Horne, both in his ARRB memo and his book "Inside the ARRB" (Vol. V. p. 1662) says that conservatively using two hours times three is six, the number of hours that should be on the tape - when in fact we have less than two hours on the existing tapes - indicates that there are four hours of tape missing - and four times 60 minutes in each hour is 240 minutes.

Doug Horne: "It appears safe to say, then, that the amount of time edited out of the existing tapes is twice as long as the length of the information released by the LBJ Library. This is extremely troubling."

I object to anyone saying that those who were at the conference has their head up their butt.

Why would it seem silly to grey beards that a ice bullet would be used, when the same notion was expressed more than once?

As David Talbot put it, JFK said in his inaugural speech that the torch has been passed to the next generation, and then when he was killed it was passed back to the old generation - LBJ, Nixon, Reagan.....

I met Zach and Steve Rosen at the Wecht Conference, and I think they are the next generation of researchers and I have much faith in them, as well as Will Paris, who is writing an essay or article on the subject of the next generation.

Anyone who is obsessed with one piece of evidence is the one who misguided and easily dismissed.

I admit I am old and gray and will not be doing this very much longer - but I'm doing what I can, and not just sitting back at my computer complaining about everyone else ignoring the holes like CV seems to do.

Jeff Morley's Wecht presentation included a survey of the JFK assassination records still being withheld for reasons of national security, and demonstrated a way that you can do it through the NARA internet system.

Of the eight or so test subjects that Morley surveyed to see how many records related to them were still being withheld, including Morales, it came out to many thousands.

Morales was definitely an operations guy who admitted to some deep xxxxe before he died, and is suspected to have participated in a lot of successful covert operations that we will never even know about.

And can anyone identify the location of that fountain where Morales is standing - and around what year it is?

Thanks James, you the best! You okay down there this summer?

BK

I don't think this is a matter of speculation. Either you will positively ID one of the guys and through him all the others, or you won't ever know anything.

STOP! HOLD THE PRESSES!

THIS JUST IN. Jeff Morley has an OpEd piece in Sundays Dallas Morning News, which refers to the Air Force One radio tapes and lists them as among the most significant records still being withheld, after the CIA records.

Jeff mentions the fact that the tapes in the public record are severely edited, and estimates that there may be as much as 240 minutes of tape edited from the tape that was released to the public in the 1970s and the tape discovered in 2011.

The math behind the estimated 240 minutes is based on what Doug Horne wrote in his book, "Inside the ARRB": (Vol. V, p. 1662)

"As an ARRB staff member I was very concerned with determining whether or not a significant portion of time had been excised from the original recordings. Anyone concerned with this exercise must begin with the flight time from Love Field back to Andrews AFB: 2 hours, and 17 minutes. Next, since Trimble had written that he had 'three phone patches going simultaneously most of the time," it is wise to take a conservative approach....two hours times three radio circuits = six hours of unedited voice conversations as the length of the unedited Air Force One tapes from November 22, 1963. Since the tapes at the Archives II are a maximum of two hours in length, approximately four hours have been excised. It appears safe to say, then, that the amount of time edited out of the existing tapes is twice as long as the length of the information released by the LBJ Library. This is extremely disturbing."

So the 240 minutes estimated to have been excised from the original unedited tapes comes from Doug Horne's "conservative" figure of four hours or 240 minutes.

BK

Bill, as you know, Michigan borders lakes Superior, Michigan and Huron, and contains within its borders numerous smaller lakes throughout the state. Michigan's "lake region " could be places as spread out as Sault Ste. Marie, Escanaba, Mackinaw City, Port Huron, Indiana City, Bay City, Cheboygan, Traverse City, Muskegon, etc., so the description provided by that relative is meaningless. ( I have been to each of these places, which extol their lake regions). There are many other hunting spots with small lakes, but I 'm to tired to name them all.

Sorry to sidetrack your great thread. If you come North, l would be pleased to buy you a drink of your choice!

Agree with your observation Ken. "Lake Region" could be applied to large portions of the state. Lacking other informative details though, I would speculate that the Upper Portion of the lower peninsula is the most likely candidate for Lemay's cabin. The biggest lakes are found there, and the north woods surrounding the lakes are a prime hunting destination for hunters from the bigger cities in the southern portion of the state.

Regarding Wiarton, Ontario, it would be an odd choice for a departure site, because it is so remote on the other side of Lake Huron.

There were however, two SAC bases in Michigan in 1963.

Kincheloe Air Force Base was at the eastern tip of the upper peninsula, not far from the Mackinac bridge. It would have been reasonably close to a northern Michigan cabin.

If the cabin were farther south, Selfridge AFB, north of Detroit may have been closer.

Would it be possible for someone with the graphics capability to post a map with Michigan and Wiarton and Toronto all on the same page?

Also, would like to see a still photo of the picture of the radio shack on "Speckled Trout," the Command and Control plane.

Thanks,

BK

If Lemay was part of either the casket switching and/or privy to the actual extra surgery that was performed then it would explain his interference at the "official" autopsy. He had to suppress as much evidence as possible, although as we know, some clues remained.

The other thing is that someone other than LeMay performed that surreptitious surgery on the corpse. Obviously, he's not covered in blood and gore at the official autopsy. There are no speaking witnesses to the "other" autopsy so it stands to reason everyone present would have either been a participant of the plot or silenced permanently.

Could Lt. Cmdr. Pitzer be one of the perps here? His death is already suspicious and it was reported that he had some photos and film of one of the autopsies.

I don't know if Lemay was a the autopsy or not, but I do not believe that he would have tried to alter the evidence to indicate a Lone Nut was responsible for the assassination, because the whole point of setting up Oswald as The Patsy was to blame the Dealey Plaza operation on the Cuban Commies so they could go to war with Cuba - invade, like they wanted to do during Cuban Missile Crisis and were prevented from doing.

Lemay would have been Gung Ho to keep the Cuban Commie Conspiracy together - the original cover story - and it was LBJ who switched the plan from one to the other.

It appears, from the tapes, he was keeping track of the body, and his chief exec had a very important message for him, a fact he had to know before he landed, a fact that may have diverted his destination from Andrews to DC National.

BK

Hi Cliff, -

Bill, as you know, Michigan borders lakes Superior, Michigan and Huron, and contains within its borders numerous smaller lakes throughout the state. Michigan's "lake region " could be places as spread out as Sault Ste. Marie, Escanaba, Mackinaw City, Port Huron, Indiana City, Bay City, Cheboygan, Traverse City, Muskegon, etc., so the description provided by that relative is meaningless. ( I have been to each of these places, which extol their lake regions). There are many other hunting spots with small lakes, but I 'm to tired to name them all.

Sorry to sidetrack your great thread. If you come North, l would be pleased to buy you a drink of your choice!

Well we should be able to narrow it down. I wrote to the Lemay Foundation a few years ago asking them about the Michigan connection but no response. The Lemay Foundation is based I think in Southern California, so maybe somebody in that part of the woods can mosey on over there and ask a few questions.

There might be something I've missed in the other books written about Lemay or his oral history he did that's on line at the LBJ Library - I think.

If Larry is right about the meetings at the Pentagon Command Center - there should be records of those meetings - at least who was present.

And the article I did in 2011 - led to another article I'm trying to find - I think its titled "Was Lemay at Camp X?" as when I first searched for Wiarton I was directed to the Camp X site.

I apologize for repeating the false factoids that Lemay was on a fishing trip - it was a hunting trip - and that Wiarton is a SAC base - as Larry notes, that is something to be picky about.

BK

I haven't really visited this area since July 2011, but this is what I wrote then:

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2011/07/general-curtis-lemay-on-112263

If the link doesn't work you'll have to go to my blog posts of July 2011 but I'll try to get the link to work.

From what I understand, the family of Lemay's wife had a cabin in the lake area of Michigan.

Her family continues to run the Lemay Foundation, in California, that takes care of the families of Air men.

The source for some the info on Lemay's return to DC on 11/22/63 comes from the Andrews Log, that I think I quote relevant references to at the bottom of that article.

So we can forget about the SAC base in Canada, and I don't really think the references to Camp X fit into the picture either.

BK

Tonight's Black Op Radio Show with Len Osanic's interview of Doug Horne is a MUST hear.

It is show #569.

http://blackopradio....chives2012.html

Doug is at his best. His interpretation of the evidence is stellar. His conclusion is very

astute, namely that: Those in government, most notably those in relevant government

positions post 1975 era, are cowards. They know the truth and are simply too petrified

of the ramifications to reveal the truth. Indeed, they are much too petrified to allow the

records themselves (even minus any logical damning conclusions) to be released to

the public.

This dovetails nicely with the sentiments of Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, who said:

"If these things became widely known...what really happened...the fear is that it could

bring down the entire government. It is primarily for this reason that the cover up is still

perpetuated."

Thanks for that Greg,

I too think its an important issue and hope we can develop it further.

BK

JFKcountercoup

Black Op Radio

Doug Horne on Black Op Radio

From what I understand the program was very successful, Doug touched on a lot of important points, Len asked good questions, and the show was listened to by a lot of people from all over North American and Europe.

The map at the bottom of this post shows the locations of those who tuned in live:

JFKcountercoup: Doug Horne on Black Op Radio

Here's the synopsis:

Show #569

Original airdate: March 8, 2012

Guest: Doug Horne

Topics: Transcripts of the Air Force One Tapes

Play Part One - Doug Horne (3:00:00) RealMedia or MP3download

 Doug performedstaff work on the ARRB andwrote a five volume book (2009)

 Air Force One audio tapes, Cedar Rapids, theFishbowl, call-sign Liberty, Collins Radio,Bill Kelly

 SAM 26000, David Lifton,the AP article,Clifton, 2:20 long, on-line recordings,2 mp3's

 Doug's blog, take off/landing timesfor Air Force Two, Col. Dorman tryingto get hold of Gen. LeMay

 MSgt. Trimble,4 simultaneous frequencies, the 02:17:00flight should have 6 hrs of recorded conversation

 Still missingmessages, to Salinger and Asst. Sec. State Robert Manning fromWH Situation Room

 The Making of thePresident 1964,Oswald guilty message passed to Air Force One

 General LeMay,what was he doing the day of the assassination?

 Airman Gilmore,contact LeMay, log bookrescued from trash, Chuck Holmes

 Airplane sent to Toronto,diverted to Wairton, Secretary ofthe Air Force orders plane to Andrews

 Lands at National,a civilian airport in a military craft at 5:12 PM EST, 52 minutes before AF1 lands

 Warren Kozak book,p356, "on a hunting trip in Michigan", a strong dislike between LeMayand JFK

 JCS, SAC, Gen. Power, Seven Daysin May (1962), LeMay calling Kennedy a coward

 Missile Crisis,quotes from transcript, Timothy Naftali, Munich,Cuba had tactical nuclear weapons

 Russian Beartesticles, "We've won", "We've been had", LeMay,"Won, hell!, We lost", first strike

 Paul O'Conner, Navy man atautopsy, LeMay was at the autopsy, smoking a cigar,

 Why is LeMays aidenot with him?, Why a special flight to get him? Lying about where he was thatday

 67 Japanese citiesdestroyed by firebombing,a cheerleader of the coup, SIOP-62

 The autopsy site andthe mode of transportation forthe body

 Context, threecasket entries to the morgue, 6:35 pm,cheap metal shipping casket, 6:55, 8:15

 Kellerman to Behn,"Waiting for swearing in", "After the uh, body"

 Aft starboardgalley door, Dr. Rose,Aubrey Rike, Mrs. Kennedyon board, flying command post

 Col. Hornbuckle,where will the autopsy be? Kellerman, Adm. Burkley,ambulance to Walter Reed

 Behn, "No, byhelicopter to Bethesda",Burkley, to Walter Reed, "Choppered to South Grounds"

 "Body by heloto Bethesda", Clifton/Watchman, Heaton,ambulance to Walter Reed,

 Mortuary ambulance,"Black car...black Cadillac", Col. Swindal, rampforward on starboard side

 NBC,6:04 pm, AF One rolls to a stop,"an Army helo has just landed", gray Naval ambulance

 6:09 ambulance departs, Jackie stayed with the coffin,"ambulance to helicopters"

 6:20 TV coverage is cut, Lifton/Lancer 1996,interviewed a Marine helicopter pilot

 Hid his chopperbehind some trees, to approach unnoticed if possible, fly body to Bethesda

 HMX Squadron, Anacostia,the Hot Team, flew back to Quantico,motorcade took 45 or 46 minutes

 The actual intentof those controlling theautopsy, Gawler's FuneralHome, Tom Robinson

 The body wasremoved before the swearing-in,reunite his body with the casket at Walter Reed

 Early entry toperform inspection, post-mortem/pre-autopsy surgery, remove evidence of frontalshots

 Walter Reed, 1997Dr. Dick Davis, AFIP,all set to do a craniotomy, the body never arrived

 Originally to go toWalter Reed, altered there, then Humes and Boswell toserve as dupes,

 Dallascasket/ambulance lost andfound on Bethesda grounds, signed letters ofsilence

 Lipsey (HSCA)mentions decoy ambulance, diagram ofwounds description, three hits from behind

 Humes told FBI twoshots, the chain of custody was broken, a clandestine operation was afoot

 Remaining minutesof the recording? recordings made at Liberty, WHCA property

 Salandria,White, Manning,fingering the lone assassin way too early in the game, absurd

 Crown/Behn/Bundy,sceptical, wonderful if another tape showed up, government search, they refused

 Behind a wall ofsilence, risk, blame and exposure, raise a massive uproar, political cowardice

 Covered up in the60's by guilty men and to prevent WWIII, perpetuated by cowards

 We don't need to beprotected from the truth, AARB cop-out, no official investigation orconclusions

 Anna Nelson, DeMohrenschildt linkedto VP Johnson, FBI bugged KBG,Johnson responsible

 SS InspectorGeneral Tom Kelley opposeda bill making Pres. assassination afederal crime

 Melvin Eisenberg memo, EarlWarren, to shut down rumors Johnson was involved

 Brain, tissueslides, photographs, x-rays missing, altered, accessory after the fact

 Pre-autopsysurgery? Robinson sawhead sawed open, x-raytechnician Ed Reed, the forehead, photographs, x-rays

 8:00 "autopsy", altering the wounds, expand thehead wound, destruction ofevidence, a charade

 Secret or shadowgovernment still in control? Eisenhower warned us,Military/Industrial complex

 Jeremy Gunn,ARRB charter forbade investigation and conclusions, Blakey,a limited hangout

 Autopsy attendees?A list,unusual, LeMay was there to gloat, the gallery wasfull, Galloway/Burkley

 Thomas Jefferson,

 Hooverand Johnson, essential enablers, Sibert and O'Neill report,"surgery of the head area"

 The WC buried thatevidence, Ebersol,Gerald Custer,story kept changing, Ed Reed,occipital

 Boswell ARRB deposition,bone missing, but it looked intact, burning ofautopsy notes

 Fink's notesdisappeared, a first draft reviewed without Fink, Capt. Canada,Capt. Stover

 Galloway,third written version, Doug's book, Joannides,assigned as CIA liason toHSCA

 A big conspiracy, amassive government cover-up, implemented immediately, too soon

 Do notblindly accept the pronouncements of authority, demand the right to know

Bill,

You've been extremely instrumental in bringing all of this Collin's Radio business to light. It is far more important than

most researchers first imagined it to be. Your pursuit of relevant information about it over the years has led us to a whole

new understanding of what this means.

Kudos--

Thanks Monk, I'm glad others are catching on. There's a lot more to be done on this angle.

Here's some docs from Doug Horne's files - WHCA radio operators After Action Reports.

JFKcountercoup: WHCA Comm Center After Action Reports

BUMP