William Kelly
-
Posts
8,730 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by William Kelly
-
-
Apparently he was hunting, not fishing.
From "Lemay - The Life and Wars of General Curtis Lemay" by Warren Kozak (Regnery,History, 2009, p. 356):
"On November 22, 1963, while on a hunting trip in Michigan, Curtis Lemay heard that President Kennedy had been assassinated in Dallas. He immediately flew back to Washington."
"LeMay remembered a lot of people in Washington worrying that the entire series of events might be some type of attempted coup, a theory he never took seriously. LeMay was just too practical and knowing the military as he did, believed the United States was the least susceptible country in the world to a military takeover 'because the military profession is itself steeped in the tradition of civilian supremacy over the military....[and] the armed forces of the United States have repeatedly fostered and protected this principle.'"
Footnote cites American Is In Danger, Gen. Curtis E. LeMay and Maj. Gen. Dale O. Smith (N.Y. Funk & Wagnails, 1968)
In addition, the SAC base LeMay flew out of was in Wiarton, Canada.
http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2011/07/general-curtis-lemay-on-112263.html
For more links to these and other deep background items see:
http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspost.com/2013/07/air-force-one-radio-communications-links.html
BK
-
While general public interest might fade, I think the slew of art that is being inspired by the anniversary will carry on, and Jim Lesar is planning on a major conference in DC next September for the 50th Anniversary of the Warren Report, and the next election will elect the President who will be in office in 2017 when the remaining records are ordered unsealed and released to the public, unless they are kept sealed by the President. So it will be an election issue, and there should be a build up to the release of the records in 2017.
So while I always thought I'd put this behind me after this anniversary, others are going to keep it going.
BK
-
Apparently some ammo from that exact DA order (DA-23-196-ORD-27) is still floating around. Here you can buy a live round for as little as $24.95:
Yes, this is it. This is the one I wanted.
Thanks Chris.
BK
-
-
Project Speckled Trout Video
Researchers might be interested in capturing tail numbers from this:
Thanks for that one Chris,
So Speckled Trout wasn't just the name of a plane, it was an entire program with an Air WIng all its own -
If anyone with the technical capabilities can take the still photos of the radio shacks in this film so we can copy them, we should be able to identify the sideband radios and coding equipment used by Speckled Trout, which should be the same as Air Force One.
I'm also looking for a photo of the radio room behind the cockpit of Air Force One circa 1963, if anyone can come up with one.
BK
-
Paul, I've done some detailed posts on this that you should find in my blog and elsewhere. LeMay was in Canada, on vacation, out of touch. His aide and probably others were trying to get to him a number of methods. They were also trying to organize a flight back for him, to get in touch with that flight etc. With his position on the Joint Chiefs they wanted constant contact with him and no doubt LeMay wanted it as well. As head of SAC he had routinely carried a SSB radio with him at all times to remain in constant touch via the SAC world wide network. But then he had been flying in "his" own aircraft.
I'm pretty sure any aide to LeMay would be busting his rear to be in communications and arrange communications for his boss on Nov. 22, not being proactive would definitely be a career limiting move.
Paul, there is more to come on LeMay's aide Col. Dorman.
And Larry, great that you are on to this angle, that Peter Dale Scott has been harping about for years now, and for good reason.
Did you see the two articles about the former US Army officer who was recruited out of college ROTC to be part of the "Continuity of Government" and Interagency Communications Agency? He was at Mount Weather (Site R) during the Cuban Missile Crisis and at the White House on 11/22/63. Interesting guy.
As for LeMay, there is info about his flight plans detailed in the Andrews Log for 11/22/63 and the day RFK was killed, which was salvaged from a dumpster by a Andrews Air Force base civilian employee and turned over to the ARRB. That log indicates LeMay was a first to be picked up a Toronto, but after the flight from Andrews took off to pick him up there, the destination was changed - to a remote SAC base north of Toronto. The only thing I can figure is that if LeMay was in upstate Michigan fishing with his wife's family, who had a lodge there, he was taking a private plane from there to the closest base where a Special Air Mission jet could land, and that was the SAC base.
Then, on the Clifton tape only, we here a patch from Col. Dorman - Gen. LeMay's aide, saying that LeMay is enroute to DC on a plane - and he gives the type - a small executive jet, and tail number, and that he is due to land in a half hour - and that he has a very important message for LeMay that he must have before he lands.
Unfortunately Dorman died in Vietnam, his plane shot down - but I located and talked with his widow, who was working at the White House on the historical renovations on the day of the assassination. She said her husband - Col. Dorman called here there and told her the president was shot and to go home immediately. Her boss - apparently in charge of the renovations - a Mr. Castro, came in and closed the blinds and curtains on the windows and they all said a prayer together and then she went home. They lived on "General's Row" that borders Arlington Cemetery, and she stopped in the little church there and prayed some more. She had some teen age sons who I also talked to and they said that they witnessed the funeral and burial from a tree.
More significant however, one of the sons told me that his dad, LeMay's aide, took him to work one day, and he got a tour of "General LeMay's plane," which was named "Speckled Trout," that I found references to on the internet - a Command and Control plane of the "Silver Dollar" class.
There is also an earlier reference to LeMay on the existing tapes - a guy comes on and says "The Chief of Staff wants to know if the body is on board?" Air Force One, and the answer is yes, the body is on board. Now LeMay was the "Chief of Staff" of the Air Force, and these were Air Force officers talking to each other, so I think it is LeMay wanting to keep track of the body.
But the son told me that it was very strange for LeMay and his father not to be together because they were stuck like glue, and the fact that they sent a small executive jet to pick him up and not his regular Command and Control plane, "Speckled Trout," which may have been in use elsewhere.
In any case, the facts as they appear here seem to indicate that LeMay and his aide were taken by surprise by the assassination, and that they were not involved in any operational duties, or else they would have been in a command and control center bunker or aboard "Speckled Trout," monitoring the situation.
BK
-
Thanks Tom,I would like to find an original, clear copy of this memo, if it is available on line.
Jim Hargrove and Phil Hopley helped me find it before.
Thanks,
Does this say what I think it says?
BK
FBI
US Government Memo
Date: 12/2/63
To: Unreadable
From: ? H. Jovens
Subject : ASASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
My memorandum of 11/2263, set out additional information relating to the sale and distribution of the Western manufactured 6.5 mm Manlicher-Carcano ammunition used in the assassination. That memorandum was written in response to Mr. Belmont's instructions that every effort be made to track the ammunition on the possibility that some of it may be traced into Oswald's hands.
The Springfield office has advised that they have obtained through contact at the Wastern Cartridge Corporation, East Alton, Illinois, copies of that Corporation's records relating to the manufacture of this ammunition. Western manufactured four million rounds of this ammunition for the United States Marine Corps during 1954.
Attached is a two-page copy of the records of Western relating to the complete manufacture of this order of assassination was authorized under Government contract of
[unreadable]
The interesting thing about this order is that it is for ammunition which does not fit and cannot be fired in any of the USMC weapons.
This gives rise to the obvious speculation that it is a contract for ammunition placed by the CIA with Western under USMC cover for concealment purpose.
ACTION: This information is being furnished Division 5 and 6 for whatever further investigative activity is deemed warranted.
[/size]
- Mr. Tolson
- Mr. Belmont
- Mr. Mohr
- Mr. DeLoach
- Mr Rosen
- Mrs. Sullivan
- Mr. Thompson
A few items which may (or may not) prove to be ultimately worthwhile.
1. The "contract" is a Department of the Army (DA) reference.
2. The letter references the USMC and it's lack of weapons, without any confirmation that it was in fact the USMC or whoever, that placed the order with Western Cartridge Company for the ammunition.
3. Somewhere within my boxes I have the additional information that the order which directed the manufacture of these bullets, remains a classified document which is not even scheduled to be reviewed for de-classification until the year 2025.
In fact, somewhere, I once had a letter in which US Senator David Boren, Chairman, Senate Intelligence Committee, was informed of this, as well as the problems which this secrecy creates in attempting to correlate the originally designated purchaser & source for these bullets, with LHO and exactly how he would have known that this excellent quality ammunition for the Carcano was available.
Lastly! As those who have been around for some time may recall, (and again posted for those who were not here), manufacture of the 6.5mm Carcano ammo by Westeren Cartridge Company was about as clandestine as "Pink Elephant in the Wal-Mart Parking Lot"!
Each box of ammo contained a slip of paper which clearly identified the manufacturer of the ammo as well as the DA Ordinance Code to which the ammo was manufactured.
Each round of the ammo, clearly has stamped on the base of the cartridge casing "WCC 6.5mm".
Both items of which no doubt have their specific reasonings, and which most certainly have nothing to do with "cover for concealment".
If you can find those records that indicate that these documents are still sealed, we can list them among those items to be brought up during hearings on the JFK Act.
There's no dispute however, that the info in this particular doc is correct, and that the ammo casing found in the sniper's perch of TSBD were ordered by the US government DOD in 1954. Correct?
BK
All that is truly known is that information which is contained within the FBI memo, for whatever it's worth.
Although I got my bullets from an "ammo collecter" who actually worked at WCC when the ammo was produced, and thereafter "pilfered" an original and unopened box of the rounds for his collection, all that he could recall was "early 50's".
There are a variety of dates which run from 1949 :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carc...ry.html#1939box
WCC Western Cartridge Company East Alton, Illinois, USA US government contractor Early 1949
Winchester Repeating Arms, of the US, manufactured 6.5x52 Carcano under a CIA during the early 50's. The intended use is not clear, but varies from being supplemental production for the Italian Military, use during the Greek civil-war, anti-communist efforts in Albania, etc. These rounds found their way into the surplus market in the early 1960's. The rounds supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to assassinate President John F. Kennedy were from this production.
The JFK Commerative Cartridge
The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il. They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid during the Greek civil war. They were commonly avaible on the surplus market during the early 1960's. They were packed in typical american 20 round boxes of white cardboard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the 1954 era, there is absolutely no confirmation as to which episode in history these bullets were actually made/produced for.
Truthfully, about all that one can state with certainty is that this ammo was produced under the standards of a Department of the US Army Ordnance Specification.
In event that they were paid for through the USMC, then this is of course an additional lead.
Whatever, the rounds would not have been produced, as marked and identified, for any "covert" operation.
Rather, it appears that they were intentionally produced and so marked as to indicate a "Red Flag" to someone, in order to fully convince that the US Government was fully backing some third world "Military Force".
Thus, this could run from Greece; Albania;, etc; , all the way to Guatemala, and even early support for Castro.
In that regards, one must correlate into the equation the wide availability of the Carcano Rifle, and exactly when it became massively available onto the maket.
Who authorized the production of these bullets; who paid for the rounds; and how they came to be mostly shipped out of country, only to return via Canada (from what little is reportedly known) would answer many questions relative to the Carcano as well as exactly why LHO chose this weapon above all others which were readily and cheaply available.
BUMP
-
This topic has come up elsewhere and I'd like to cut to the chase.
Is there a link to the original FBI document that says the Western Cartridge cases found on the sixth floor originated with a batch ordered by the USMC?
Is that document posted at Mary Ferrell or anywhere else?
Lisa Pease mentioned this document in her talk at the Wecht Conference, and said it was easily located on the web by googling Western.
Also, would it be possible to get a photo of the leather smudge marks on the .38 bullets found in Oswald's pockets?
Thanks,
BK
-
THANKS FOR TRYING TO GET THIS BACK ON TRACK THOMAS.
And don't be afraid of John Armstrong, just don't get bogged down in any dogma of any sort.
I had missed the whole segment of great quotes from Marrion Baker that I had not seen before.
"The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollections of what happened but I guess they weren't interested in what I said."
- Dallas Police motorcycle policeman and first law enforcement inside the TSBD
Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:
"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."
C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?
Thanks
DJ
Joseph,
It appears to be an oral statement made by Baker, "many years" after the assassination. I found it in a long article about the acoustical evidence by a "John C. Bowles."
http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html
Here's the pertinent but undated "statement," with appropriate introduction:
CHAPTER SIX
REFLECTIONS
Probably the most informed and the most ignored authorities on what happened and in what order in Dealey Plaza are the motorcade motor jockeys. They have been interviewed uncounted times by many people, ranging from official investigators to insufferable quacks. Again, they are referred to in this text by a "letter" name, hopeful that it will discourage further contacts, however well-intentioned. While their recollections are presented in the first person, their comments should not be taken as unalterable quotes. Too many years have passed for them to remember with unimpeachable certainty what they might have said earlier and what they say now. Accordingly, what they say here should be considered for the meaning rather than exactness. [emphasis added by T. Graves]
[...]
OFFICER "E" [obviously Marion Baker] --
It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.
The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.
A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.
The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.
The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.
_________________________________________________
What's interesting to me is that the above sentences in bold tend to substantiate Sean Murphy's theory.
Simply put, Baker suggests above that he and Truly realized only after they had encountered Oswald that the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor. From the Warren Report, we already know that Truly and Baker were on the first floor when they tried to get one of the freight elevators to come down, but couldn't, and went up the stairs instead. Therefore, Baker and Truly must have encountered Oswald on the first floor.
--Tommy
bumped in an attempt to get this thread back on topic
-
they were used just as examples not as interchangeable items. Check your egos at the door or we'll never solve this thing.
They could have shot him with any caliber they wanted since the fix was already in. To believe the "evidence" controlled by those with the most to hide is a clear sign of delusion.
As a homicide cop I attended hundreds of gunshot autopsies AND I never saw a rifle entrance wound in the back of the head that did not totally disrupt the facial features. Spending time based on the honesty of the Warren Commission is absolutely ludicrous. This was a homicide that was never competently investigated. I had murders of drug dealers were I preserved the crime scene, excluded all nonessential personnel and worked it hard until the right people were in jail. None of this was done in Dallas.
Evan Marshall
www,stoppingpower.net
Evan, there were a number of police officers and a few ex-cops and private investigators at the conference, and while former NYC prosecutor Robert Tanenbaum gave his talk at the same time mine was scheduled in another room, and I missed what he had to say, I did transcribe his presentation at the 2003 Wecht conference - in which he says "the police are the bedrock of every investigation."
http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/07/robert-k-tanenbaum-wecht-conference-html
Which you might find illuminating.
As for ballistics and science testing - Oswald was given a number of tests in his cell, including a nitrate test - that he allowed them to do - and even joked about it with the technicians testing him - saying "I know what you're doing, you're checking to see if I fired a gun."
And the tests for his cheeks came out negative, but hands positive, though they said the nitrates on the hands could have come from a source other than firing a pistol.
According to Lisa Pease, the FBI conducted many tests with the MC found on the Sixth Floor, and in every case the cheeks tested positive for nitrates, so they knew he didn't fire that rifle that day.
BK
-
We do know of some steps the Pentagon was taking, they were jumping the defcon level a stage and alerting various commands. CINCPAC even jumped the alert higher in his region. Also SAC was raising the interm alert levels at its missile sites. There are several states within each of the defense conditions that can be handled independently.
I also have to caution that LeMay's aide contacting him and calling him back would have been pretty SOP, the Chiefs had been taken by McNamara into the new national command center, at that point McNamara was the only national command authority and that was where he should have been.
Perhaps more interesting is Taylor's comment to Manchester that he had put a local Army unit on alert because his first thought was a coup - sure wish Manchester had asked him why and who he had in mind.
Thanks for that Larry.
Can you tell me where the new National Command Center was located? In the Pentagon? At Weather Mountain? Site R?
BK
-
But from memory, if you are referring to the Salandria "Tale of the Tapes" article in which he quotes T.H. White's book "Making of a President 1964" when White says Bundy radioed AF1 from the WHSR and informed them that Oswald captured and no conspiracy, well that is not on the existing tapes. White, along with William Manchester and Pierre Salinger, were given access to a transcript of the AF1 tapes that must have been from the complete unedited tapes, as all three quote sections of the transcript that are not on the existing tapes. So there were a lot of parts edited out, and the unedited tapes are missing, and the transcript of the unedited tapes is also now missing from the existing records.
I do believe however, that we will someday soon locate the unedited tapes, as I think they still exist and we have a good lead on where they could possibly be.
Thanks for your interest in this,
BK
Thank you for your great work on this.
The Bundy line we have on tape about "the Pentagon is taking its own steps" possibly refers to the actions of Gen LeMay and the preparation for a strike on Cuba.
But Bundy himself way-laid those preparations when he informed LBJ that the lone assassin was captured.
Dueling cover-ups!
The lines attributed to Bundy - including "the Pentagon is taking its own steps" - are not on the existing tapes. Also missing are other the quotes White and Manchester attributed to a transcript they were permitted to read at the White House, but not take with them. Salinger was also sent a copy of the transcript which he quotes from in his book, and then passed on to the JFK Library in Boston. When Vince Salandria asked the LBJ library for the AF1 transcript that Salinger had and gave to them, they said they no longer had it. So the Dealey Plaza Clean Up Crew was hard at work.
Jim Bishop, who didn't have access to the tapes or the transcripts, wrote in his book that LBJ conversed with military commanders over the radio - this information apparently attained from an interview with one of the AF1 radio men, Air Force sergeants attached to the White House Communications Agency (WHCA).
A recent article in Esquire Magazine - Flight From Dallas - posted on another thread - also quotes this same radio man - and notes that he is still alive.
I agree with you that there were probably dueling cover-ups.
The original cover-story - that Castro Commies were behind the assassination, assumed that Oswald would be killed but that the assassination would be considered a conspiracy because there was more than one gunman, and the trail - rifle to Oswald - Oswald to FPCC/Mexico to Cuba - was clearly laid out, just as the evidence was linking Oswald to the crime - and the DPD Special Services Bureau cops who were also part of Army Reserves Intel #488 - Gannaway, Revel, Lumpkin, Stringfellow, et al., began to push for the Commie Conspiracy line - and Stringfellow sent the memo to the Florida Strike Force - alerting them to Oswald's Cuban Castro Commie background - they were pushing for the Cuban invasion backlash - the Northwoods twist to the Dealey Plaza operation. BUT
But LBJ took command, and the first decision he made as president was to go immediately to AF1 rather than the plane he flew in on, because as the Warren Commission tells us - it had better communications equipment. Once there, he makes a half dozen phone calls from the land line - run into AF1 that the WHCA claims was not recorded. JFK had only ordered the AF1 radio communications recorded when the plane was in the air. So LBJ calls Goldberg, the Dallas lawyer who tells him to have the swearing in right away, and have Judge Hughes do it. He then calls Judge Hughes' office and tells them to have her come to AF1 immediately. Then he calls RFK and asks for the words to the oath of office. Then he calls J.W. Bullion, his tax attorney and tells him he will now have to sell his Halliburton stock. RFK then calls him back and gives him the words to the oath.
In the meantime - we are told - by Bishop and Manchester and White, that he also talks to his generals about the Soviet threat, and by now - before they even take off - Oswald is captured and identified as FPCC, not by the White House Situation Room but by the news media - mainly the DRE - CIA assets - Hal Hendrix, et al., and the plane takes off. When they get back to Andrews, LBJ makes his speech and then he and his men - Valente, Cliff Carter, Bill Moyers, et al, take helicopters to the White House lawn. After looking into the Oval Office French Doors from the Rose Garden, LBJ decides to use his own VP office in the Executive Office Building next door, so they walk over there. If they had used the Oval Office we would have a tape of the calls he made, because LBJ kept JFK's recording system going for awhile. But in the EOB, the phones were not recorded, and a lot of important calls were made, including a number to Dallas - Barefoot Sanders, Dallas DA - Henry Wade - etc., trying to put a squelch on the rumor they had heard that Oswald was going to be charged with a the assassination as part of a commie conspiracy.
This rumor was being fueled by one Joseph Goulden, reporter for the Philadelphia Inquirer, who was talking directly to Dallas Asst. DA William Alexander, who had told Goulden he was indeed going to charge Oswald with being part of a communist conspiracy, but once LBJ heard that - and called three top Texas lawmen, all of whom called Wade, the DA went back to the office and asked about Oswald being charged with a conspiracy and Alexander denied it. Goulden, it turns out, was one of David Atlee Phillips top media assets, who later - with another CIA media asset Hugh Aynesworth - "made up" Oswald's FBI informant number - a trial balloon they sent up to see if it would fly. And while the commie conspiracy didn't fly, the FBI informant did, at least long enough to unnerve the Warren Commission.
So there were two alternative cover stories - the commie conspiracy and the lone nut, both untrue, but the latter more easier to swallow, at least for LBJ because he didn't have to go to war with Cuba and the Soviets, as the original cover story would have if they stuck to it. To placate the military, he told them he would give them their war but it would be in Vietnam instead - since Cuba was the reason JFK was killed, LBJ didn't want to have anything to do with it, and didn't.
That's my take on it, and it appears that the most important parts of the Air Force One tapes is what was once on it - and now isn't.
BK
-
Maj. Harold Patterson, also known on the tapes by his code name - “Stranger,” was in charge of the White House Situation Room at the time of the assassination. Shortly after the release of the tapes both Patterson and Mrs. Dorman were located and interviewed for the first time about what happened that day.
Major Patterson confirmed that he was the officer in charge of the White House situation room that day, but hasn’t yet heard the tapes and didn’t know he was on them. He did recall talking with Pierre Salinger on the cabinet plane, and the affirmed the fact that the plane’s code books were missing.
Bill,
When you say Patterson was "in charge" of the White House Situation Room, do we have reason to believe it was Patterson and not McGeorge Bundy who first radioed AF1 with news that the lone assassin had been captured?
Cliff, Patterson was "in charge" of the WHSR in the sense that there was one officer assigned from each branch of the service - and I believe they rotated responsibility for being "in charge," and it was Patterson's turn that day. The Navy guy there - Oliver Hallett, knew Oswald from his previous assignment in Moscow, where he was Navy attache and his wife was Snyder's secretary when Oswald turned in his passport.
Listening to the tapes, we can tell when Bundy is talking as we know his voice, and we now know Patterson and Hallet. I haven't gone over the tapes in awhile and will resume soon, as I revise the transcripts based on the new, cleaned up and combined tape we have created.
But from memory, if you are referring to the Salandria "Tale of the Tapes" article in which he quotes T.H. White's book "Making of a President 1964" when White says Bundy radioed AF1 from the WHSR and informed them that Oswald captured and no conspiracy, well that is not on the existing tapes. White, along with William Manchester and Pierre Salinger, were given access to a transcript of the AF1 tapes that must have been from the complete unedited tapes, as all three quote sections of the transcript that are not on the existing tapes. So there were a lot of parts edited out, and the unedited tapes are missing, and the transcript of the unedited tapes is also now missing from the existing records.
I do believe however, that we will someday soon locate the unedited tapes, as I think they still exist and we have a good lead on where they could possibly be.
Thanks for your interest in this,
BK
-
Wecht Conference Program - AF1 Radio Tapes Synopsis -
http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/10/from-program-cyril-w.html
THE AIR FORCE ONE RADIO TRANSMISSION TAPES - A FORENSIC ANALYSIS
By William E. Kelly
There are a number of audio tapes of forensic value in high profile crime cases, including Kent State, the RFK assassination and the assassination of President Kennedy.
While the controversial Dallas Police tape has received the most attention because some acoustical experts say it contains evidence of a fourth shot from the Grassy Knoll, also of interest are the recordings of Air Force One radio transmissions from 11/22/63, including the LBJ Library cassette recordings released in the late 1970s and the more recently discovered reel to reel Air Force One tapes found among the personal effects of Gen. Clifton, the president’s military aide.
Dissatisfied with the official transcript of the LBJ Library version of the tapes I compiled my own transcript, and when the Clifton tape was released by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA), I compiled a transcript of that as well, then compared the two. The Clifton tape is longer by about a half hour, but both contain unique information, so I put together a combined and annotated transcript that is still a work in progress.
Ed Primeau, an acoustical forensic specialist, studied the quality of the tapes and with the assistance of his staff created a combined copy, using the better quality of the two where they overlapped, and added the transcript to an audio visual recording so you can read along as you listen to the tapes. And we now have a high quality combined tape that will be used to conduct a complete forensic analysis. This will include a scientific, technical analysis that will try to determine how many frequencies were used, what frequencies they were, how many edits there are, as well as eliminate noise and enhance background conversations.
This forensic analysis will also include a review of the conversations – identify those who talk or are mentioned, translate all codes and technical language and compare it to what we know from other sources.
Since the Clifton tape is longer than the officially released LBJ version, it includes conversations that were edited out of the publicly released version, which allows us to try to determine why key elements were deleted from the public version and others not.
The newly released tapes also include new and possibly significant characters, including Major Harold Patterson and the widow of Col. Dorman, Air Force General LeMay’s aide, both of whom can be heard on the tapes.
Maj. Harold Patterson, also known on the tapes by his code name - “Stranger,” was in charge of the White House Situation Room at the time of the assassination. Shortly after the release of the tapes both Patterson and Mrs. Dorman were located and interviewed for the first time about what happened that day.
Major Patterson confirmed that he was the officer in charge of the White House situation room that day, but hasn’t yet heard the tapes and didn’t know he was on them. He did recall talking with Pierre Salinger on the cabinet plane, and the affirmed the fact that the plane’s code books were missing.
Gen. LeMay’s aide, Col. Dorman, is heard on the newly released tape in a section edited out of the publicly released version, with an urgent message for Gen. LeMay, who was flying back to Washington from Canada, where he was said to be on a fishing trip with his family.
Col. Dorman’s wife, who was working at the White House that day, recalled what happened at the White House when the president was shot.
There are also riveting conversations among White House aides and the military officers on such subjects as the autopsy, the living arrangements of the new President and plans for the autopsy and funeral, and much to be learned from a complete forensic analysis of the tapes.
The entire combined tape is over eighty minutes in length.
The most recent article on the subject, "Flight From Dallas" published in Esquire (Oct. 1963), acknowledges in the editors column, that while the author was aware of the Clifton tape and listened to it, it was not used in the article, so that article is not the most recent up to date research or information we have.
The value of the discovery of the new version of the Air Force One radio transmissions from Air Force One cannot be underestimated, as it not only gives us a fuller picture of what happened that day, it has quickly led to the identification of a number of new and important witnesses, and gives us reason to believe that somewhere on the shelf of an archives other, even more complete and unedited tapes still exist and will one day be discovered so we will have an even better understanding of what happened that day.
To listen to the new, refined and combined AF1 radio transmission tapes:
-
Varnell can use the term to dismiss everything anybody else writes about the subject, and though he might get off on it, he didn't coin the term, and for the record, here is what Mysak said: "Sabato writes that the shooting, 'is critical both to understanding America's past and future paths and to the lasting legacy of John Kennedy.' No it isn't. the Kennedy legacy, such as it is, steadily diminishes with the passing of the years. What's left is assassination porn."
Bill,
I don't agree with the above statement, it's a worthless generalization, in my book..
A lot depends on context
A discussion of the head wounds in the context of the murder of JFK is "assassination porn" -- we can't know how many times he was hit in the head and we don't know if there was pre-autopsy surgery to the head.
Any study of the cover-up of the assassination, however, would address all the conflicts with the head wounds evidence.
But the head wounds don't tell us anything about the killing of JFK.
Neither does CE399. As a study of the cover-up within the FBI its a genuine area of study -- but when put into evidence as proof of conspiracy its just more noise, more Assassination Porn.
There may be value to studying Z-film alteration as a study of the cover-up, but it's Assassination Porn in my opinion because it distracts from crucial segments early in the film, the authenticity of which is not challenged.
How 'bout that Oswald! A great subject to study in the context of the competing cover-ups, but we can't rule out the possibility that Oswald's handlers were also groomed to be patsies given certain contingencies.
Not every subject is assassination porn, Bill.
You and Jim seem to have run a clean program.
btw, I take credit for coining The JFK Assassination Porn Industry. An update of Schotz 1998 critique, if you will.
Jeff Morley at www.jfkfacts.org/assassination/annals-of-denial-a-revealing-rant-about-jfk-porn/#more-7644
writes: The assassination of President John F. Kennedy is a difficult subject, whose complexities many historians and journalists deny or avoid. Now comes Joe Mysak, A BusinessWeek writer who wants to avert his eyes (and ours) from "JFK porn."
For Mysak, it seems the whole story is too graphic. It provokes lust and other uncontrollable emotions. His plea: "don't look at it." The impulse to deny has rarely been stated so frankly.
www.businessweek.com/news/2013-10-21/.kennedy-s-tainted-camelot-inspires-assassination-porn-review
"JFK subject matter could use a sabbatical"
-
The JFK Assassination Research Community is losing a generation.
Kids tune out because, in the words of one 25-year old I spoke with, "They make it so boring."
I had two conversations with this 25-year old, a young lady from New England as rock-ribbed as any of her generation.
I mentioned the "central issue" of the JFK assassination to her and she insisted I say what it was.
"JFK had a wound of entrance in the back, without an exit. There was no bullet recovered at the autopsy. He had a wound of entrance in his throat, without an exit. No bullet recovered during the autopsy."
She didn't know what to make of it, at first.
"Some people think the bullets were removed prior to the autopsy--" I said.
"--Or it was some government xxxx that dissolved!" she said, excited.
I had a wide smile at that one.
The Wecht Conference "Passing the Torch," often touched on the role of new young, researchers, and there were many there on Thursday and Friday, the first two days, when high school and college students could receive credit for attending, and I presume paying attention, but on the third day, someone took a hand count of how many people were in the audience who were under 40 years old and there were only a dozen or so.
But there were some good, young researchers there, including Zack and Steve Rosen, and Will Paris, all forum members who appear willing to carry the torch.
As David Talbot said, we have to figure out a way to continue by developing social media - networking, Facebook, Tweet, Blogs, etc., and one 70 year old retired school teacher asked, "What do you want us to do when we get home?" Her assignment is to begin networking a mass public movement to get Congressional Oversight of the JFK Act.
Can we bring the new generation into the act as the old generation checks out? Will anybody be there in October 2017 when the NARA releases the last secret document on the assassination?
Maybe somebody will make a great thriller suspense movie ala JFk, Bourne Legacy, that will be based on the assassination and garner the attention and interest of the next generation?
-
emphasis added
Jack cannon gave us the Glaser Safety Slug and Mitch Werbell a modern suppressor. Both were old China hands and experienced killers.
Bingo!
And WerBell had access to US Army Special Forces gear, right?
It was mentioned at the Wecht conference that there are still a lot of documents on Weerbell that are still being with held.
And someone mentioned that there was some ballistics testing done at Fort Detrick. What was that all about?
Bill, check out the following:
http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/pdfs94th/94intelligence_activities_I.pdf
Specifically Senseney's testimony here:
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf
I had seen the Church Committee records but hadn't read Senseney's testimony.
Senseney says he didn't make any policy decisions, that would have been the division chief - Dr. Cowan at University of Maryland.
They end the testimony seeking to question Dr. Cowan. I wonder if they ever got around to doing that?
I can't find ANYTHING on a Dr. Cowan at UM, and I don't believe the Church Committee questioned him, though I hope to be proven wrong by a more diligent researcher.
Rex Bradford did a real good presentation on the legacy of the Church Committee, based primarily on the limited documents that were released under the JFK Act, so most of the Church records remain sealed.
I was familiar with MKNAOMI - "The Army agreed that the Special Operations Division (SOD) at Fort Detrick would assist the CIA in developing testing and maintaining biological weapons suited for CIA use...The National Security Council staff, charged by the President with determining what U.S. policy should be, did not discover MKNAOMI in the course of its study, and did not, there fore, consider the possibility that the CIA had biological weapons....The CIA employee who claims to have made the decision, on his own, to retain the toxin received no written instructions to destroy them. Kept outside the National Security Council's study, the employee had to rely only on the newspaper account of the President's announcement and on his own interpretation of it."
It is possible that Dr./Col. Jose Rivera, who knew of Oswald's role in the Walker shooting before the assassination and Oswald's New Orleans apartment address before Oswald knew it, worked at Fort Detrick on a still secret project that may have been MKNAOMI.
And they were wrong when they claimed that they didn't test the chemical agents on human subjects because they did -on prisoners at Holmesburg prison in Pennsylvania, as reported in the US Army Inspector General's Report on the Use of Human Subjects in Chemical Agent Research.
BK
-
emphasis added
Jack cannon gave us the Glaser Safety Slug and Mitch Werbell a modern suppressor. Both were old China hands and experienced killers.
Bingo!
And WerBell had access to US Army Special Forces gear, right?
It was mentioned at the Wecht conference that there are still a lot of documents on Weerbell that are still being with held.
And someone mentioned that there was some ballistics testing done at Fort Detrick. What was that all about?
-
Cyril Wecht said he didn't expect this headline
JFK Files Ordered Released - New Investigation Underway
Government Officially Reopens JFK Case
http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/10/jfk-files-ordered-released-new.html
-
-
If JFK was shot from the back rear and the exit wound was in the front - then how come his handsome face wasn't destroyed and there was no distortion to the part of his face that should have been blown out if he had indeed been killed by a bullet from the rear?
I ask this to David V P or anyone who believes that the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest was the origin of the head shot, which appears to originate from the right front.
The bullet very likely changed course slightly after entering JFK's head. Which, IMO, is to be expected after striking such a hard object head-on at full speed. Plus, the angle at which Kennedy's head was tilted and angled at Z313 probably played a part in it too.
Plus, just one look at the Z-Film and the autopsy photos tells us where the large wound was located--and the photos also tell us that JFK's face is intact after the shot passed through his head. You don't think the Z-Film AND the photos are fakes, do you Bill?
What's the point of even having autopsy photos and X-rays if nobody is going to believe what they show? (And virtually no conspiracist believes anything they show.)
No David, i don't believe all the photos and x-rays are faked, I do believe that the Parkland doctors and SS agent Hill and Mrs. JFK when they say there was a huge gaping hole the size of a grapefruit in the back of JFK's head and the Harper fragment found on the street came from that part of the head - and that we could clearly see the entrance wound to the head if they would have done a standard forensic autopsy procedure and shave all the hair from the head so the wounds could have been clearly seen - a regular procedure that every mortician I have ever met told me is routinely done - but wasn't done for the autopsy of the President of the United States.
The only real option today is for the body to be exhumed and subjected to a proper, forensic autopsy with the best and most sophisticated equipment - x-rays, MRIs, photos from every angle and the proper probing of the wounds to determine if the single-bullet-theory is correct, and the proper examination of the head wounds to determine the exact beveling of the bones that indicate entrance-exit.
If the victim was anyone other than the president of the USA, any suspicious death would require the local DA and medical examiner to exhume the body and have it subjected to a proper forensic autopsy the purpose of which would be to create new photos and x-rays and MRIs and other tests, the provenance of which would be maintained in order to be introduced into a court of law - at either grand jury or trial.
None of the existing autopsy photos or x-rays have a provenance that would be accepted by any court of law, so new ones would have to be obtained, and their provenance maintained for the court.
Whether JFK was shot by the left and the rear or the right and the front, the MO of the assassination was that of a covert intelligence operation, and the bullets came from the Pentagon.
BK
-
Hey Cliff
In his opening welcome spiel, Cyril Wect himself asked the question.
he didn't know the answer and he asked the question.
Others had different answers, but I'll have to get back to you on it.
BK
Excellent!
Thank you, Bill!
I'm gathering so far I owe Tami a buck.
Cyril Wecht asked the central question -- and then went on TV with an utterly pornographic answer.
"The President was shot three times--once, striking him in the back, and exiting from the front of his neck. Yeah, that's the shot you see when he emerges from behind the Stemmons Freeway sign, and his hands come up in this kind of defensive posture."
What a joke.
The JFK Assassination Porn Industry richly deserves the title.
As far as I can tell it was Steve Sailer's Assassination Porn blog of February 26, 2008 that first used the term porn in relation to the assassination,
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2008/02/assassination-porn.html,
and the most recent, other than Cliff Varnell's repeated use of it here, is Joe Mysak's October 21, Bloomberg News article "Kennedy's Tainted Camelot Inspires Assassination Porn."
But it is Cliff Varnell's who makes it seem that he is using it for sexual pleasure, so I call upon the moderators to monitor these posts, as while some like CV may think what we are discussing is a joke, the mental or sexual perversions of some members of the forum shouldn't prevent others from considering the seriousness of our topic.
Varnell can use the term to dismiss everything anybody else writes about the subject, and though he might get off on it, he didn't coin the term, and for the record, here is what Mysak said: "Sabato writes that the shooting, 'is critical both to understanding America's past and future paths and to the lasting legacy of John Kennedy.' No it isn't. the Kennedy legacy, such as it is, steadily diminishes with the passing of the years. What's left is assassination porn."
Now that we know Mysak's opinion we don't have to subscribe to it, and can continue researching and writing about what we think is an important topic, and we know CV's opinion, that it is or we are a "joke,' but I don't think we have to be continually reminded and subjected to it.
If he thinks it is a joke and porn he should be politely asked to go visit porn sites that get him off and not visit those he thinks are jokes.
And I'd like to hear some more from Anthony and other forum members who were at the Wecht porn fest to hear what they have to say about it.
BK
-
Hi Bill - The tapes pose more questions than they answer. Who decided to bring the body to Bethesda? It seems that Burkley thought the autopsy would be done at Walter Reed, but there is no evidence on the tapes that he put up much of a fight. And was it Secret Service agent Behn that made the Bethesda decision? Was this part of the tape from the LBJ version or Clifton or both?
The main question I have, and which will surely not be answered, is who edited the tapes? Why did Clifton have a longer yet still edited tape?
Hey Paul,
I'm with you, I have the same questions as you do, and I think we can answer them all - but we are just getting started - we just combined them for the first time, and as Jeff Morley said, we are doing something Pro Bono - without pay - something that the government should be doing - and only now, that we have combined the tapes and cleaned them up a bit - can we examine them closely and determine exactly what is on them.
It has been said that the DPD dictabelt is the "black box" of the the JFK assassination, but I don't think so, as only scientists can decipher it - as to whether or not there are gunshots on the tape and what they mean - when the AF1 radio transmissions can easily be understood by anyone who knows English and the meaning of the codes they use. So the Air Force One Radio transmissions are one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case, and as Jeff Morley described it as giving us a clear picture of what was going on at the highest levels of government in the immediate hours after the assassination.
In answer to your questions, Maj. Patterson, who is heard on the tapes using his code name "Stranger," was the officer in charge of the White House Situation Room at the time of the assassination. After learning of his identity from the tapes, as i transcribed them, I off the cuff Googled his name and located him and called him on the telephone. I told him I was transcribing the AF1 radio communications and heard him on them, and asked him - my first question was who edited them - and he said the White House Communications Agency (WHCA), the office to which he was assigned, recorded everything, but didn't edit them. So it must have been, he suggested, the White House who edited them.
As to the length, the LBJ Library Tape has an official introduction that explains that they were edited, and they were released to the public as a series of cassette tapes in the late 1970s, while the Clifton tapes were two, exact duplicates of reel to reel tapes - obviously a generation closer to the original, yet still edited.
The Clifton tape, while a half hour - 30 minutes longer than the LBJ tape, begins about ten minutes into the officially released LBJ tapes, and some of what is on the longer version is not in the shorter version, so while the Clifton tape is longer, each tape contains unique information that is not on the other tape, so what we did was keep things in sequence and using the best of the two where they overlapped, combined them to one tape so its possible to hear the whole thing at one time and not have to go back and forth and listen to both without knowing what is or what is not on either of them.
After studying both for quite some time, I think that we have provided a unique service to those who want to seriously study these tapes, and I hope, as Dave Reitzes put it, study them in a sober and meaningful way.
Let the analysis begin!
BK
-
I hope someone is planning to post a video of this conference on the internet.
My understanding is that no video set for the conference will be available, as they still had plenty of left-overs from the last one. I was told by Ben Wecht, however, that at some point they would make DVDs of individual presentations available.
They certainly recorded every presentation with the best equipment and have a very comprehensive record of it, and I know that it will someday be available to the public, certainly before the official government records are released.
Two articles on JFK's relationship with the Military
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Have you read David Talbot's "Devil Dog"? It's a lavishly illustrated book about Smedley Butler and how he rejected leading a coup for big business.
If you read the book "Coup d'état - A Practical Handbook," by Edward Lutwak, it details the steps necessary to take over a country, and while it is focused on Third World Banana Republics, the basic principles could be applied anywhere, and one of the things that is absolutely necessary is the complete control over the communications and media - which leads to the Air Force One Radio communications, how the military controlled it, and why so much is missing today.
BK
BK