James DiEugenio

Greg: You said the Paines did have a darkroom for sure?

Greg, Its my thread, go ahead and reply. I can't because I am kind of stupefied.

Pat, Are there not also several instances of witnesses saying this rewords were altered? Like for instance, Holland. And Victoria Adams. In the latter case, she thought her deposition was altered but she never had the original to compare it to. This was all in order to enact the whole Lovelady/Shelley charade to the railyards, that neither man mentioned in his first day affidavit.

Above, I see I left something unanswered. As I said, I do not think Hoover was in on the plot. And I gave a couple of reasons why I didn't think so. But then why did he go along with the cover up? In Reclaiming Parkland, I devote a chapter to the whole FBI cover up and how Bugliosi ignored it. But I also tried to explain why I think Hoover went along with the cover up. (See pgs. 211-13) 1. He and RFK despised each other personally because RFK actually tried to supervise Hoover and had a direct line into his office. 2. They were opposed to each other on the issues of civil rights, the prosecution of the Mob, and whether or not the FBI should devote so much time and money hunting down communists. 3. RFK planned on replacing Hoover after the 1964 election. 4. Hoover was much more friendly with and comfortable with LBJ. 5. Hoover was eager to conceal Oswald's status as an FBI informant. So what was the upside for Hoover in trying to find the truth about JFK's murder? I mean his feelings about the Kennedys are conveyed in his calls to RFK on the day of the assassination. Call number 1: "I have news for you. The president's been shot." 20 minutes later, Call number two: ""The president's dead." And he hung up. The next day he went to the track.

Greg: Why do you even deal with this guy? I mean, in my segment on this, I did not even approach whether or not the photos were forged. That is not the point of Jeff's work. He approached it from a different angle. Namely, who took the photos? And who's camera was the Imperial Reflex?

It is hard, I think, not to conclude from the above that the Paines were still spinning the case against Oswald into the nineties, and actually beyond. Because in 2003, Mike Paine again told his tale of seeing the BYP in April of 1963 to ABC for the Peter Jennings special. Gus Russo was the lead correspondent on that show, although his name was taken off the credits. (I know this for a fact since I corresponded with ABC over this program before it was broadcast.)

As Jeff shows in his essay, there was a report (very much buried) that a woman in a station wagon drove Marina and Lee, and their belongings, to the Neely Street apartment to move in. This, of course, is where the BYPs supposedly were taken. George DeMohrenschildt also visited the couple there. Jeff also makes a circumstantial case that it was Ruth Paine who took the photos of Marina and her child in New Orleans at the Magazine Street apartment. These were also taken with the Imperial Reflex camera. In the fall of 1963, when Marina and Lee moved back to Dallas, Mike Paine allegedly attended meetings of both the left and right, that is of the ACLU, of which he was a member, and the John Birch Society. He attended the former with Oswald. It is fascinating that in the nineties, Mike Paine began to change his story about the BYP's. He did this for Gus Russo, twice. He now said that Oswald actually showed him one of these in April of 1963! Something he had never said before. Which is a bit startling. Not just because he never said this before, but because it now made informed people wonder: Why then would you be puzzled by what was allegedly underneath that blanket in your garage, to the point that you thought it was camping equipment? And, why would you let someone like this stay in your home? But also, Paine said he saw one of the photos the night of the 22nd at DPD HQ. The problem with this is that they were not supposed to be found until the afternoon of the 23rd. The effect of all this Mike Paine revisionism is that it alleviates the claims by critics that the BYP's were forgeries. That is, they were not made up after the fact at all. This is the MSM version. But what critics should be asking is: Why did it take you decades to recall this information? Apparently, Gus Russo couldn't think of that one.

Now, how did the Imperial Reflex enter the record? From Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition (p. 203) "On December 8th, two weeks after the Paine household search was concluded, with three cameras already in evidence, Robert Oswald picked up a box of Oswald's articles at Ruth Paine's house. Inside that box was the Imperial Reflex camera, which did use 620 roll film...... Robert kept the camera for over two months. On February 24th he turned it over to the FBI. On February 1, Marina said the Cuera and the Stereo Realist appeared to be Oswald's two cameras. Then on February 25, when shown the newly retrieved Imperial Reflex, she now said it was Oswald's. In the interval between the February 1 and February 19 FBI interviews, Marina had temporarily lived with Robert Oswald, who had the Imperial Reflex at that time. On August 12th, the Stereo Realist camera was finally given to Ruth Paine, who said it was hers. Apparently she never looked for it in that entire six month span." Pretty slick huh?

Hoover and the FBI understood this problem. So did the police. So four DPD officers were interviewed by the Bureau--Adamcik, Stovall, Rose, Moore. They all told the Bureau that they had never seen the Imperial Reflex during their search of the Paine residence. If they had, they would have seized it as they did the others. Hmm. Was the Imperial Reflex camera there then? If it was not, then did someone else take the BYP's or the shot of Walker's house? There had to be an out somewhere. There was. His name was John McCabe. McCabe was not with DPD. He was with the Irving Police Department, which had jurisdiction since the Paine home was in Irving. It was this department that Ruth Paine worked with to supply more evidence after the initial search e.g. the so-called Walker note. Now, listen carefully to this story. McCabe did say he saw the Imperial Reflex in a box. But for some reason he did not tell the other investigating officers about this discovery. He added that he did not consider it to be important. Hmm, with all those photos and all those other cameras, including a Minox, somehow this one was not important. McCabe must have realized this was kind of weak, so he did add that the camera looked too old and rickety to him. The FBI now re-interviewed the DPD officers. They said that they went through all the boxes also. Including the one McCabe said he saw. They never saw that camera. And as Jeff Carter notes in his fine essay on the subject, it appears that the DPD did search the box McCabe is talking about. They inventoried it also. In that inventory, there is no camera attributed to that box. (If you have not read Jeff Carter's multi part essay on this subject, you should: (http://www.ctka.net/2015/JeffCarterBYP1-3.html)

Now, to get back to the mystery of the Imperial Reflex which was not there. Since the film used in the three confiscated cameras did not match the incriminating photos, this left a problem when the Imperial Reflex did finally surface ( a point we will get to later.) Namely: How did a small platoon of police, searching the Paine home for two days, miss it? Especially since, as shown above, they did take into evidence, not one, not two, but three other cameras! And to make that even more puzzling, one of these was the miniature Minox. So, how could they see this cigarette box pygmy, but miss the much larger Imperial Reflex?

Jon: I am leaving the whole H and L debate out of this. I am talking about the guy Jack Ruby killed in Dallas. As per a FOIA request, I don't think that would work. Because as John Newman has noted, and Angleton's biographer Tom Mangold also had written, James Angleton had a filing system that was independent of the CIA's central and grouped system. (This is how much power and independence Dulles and Helms granted this fruitcake.) I believe, and I have advanced evidence owing mostly to Newman, that Oswald's ultimate control agent was Angleton. (Destiny Betrayed pgs, 137-44) In my view, since Helms made Angleton handler of the Oswald case with the WC, those files are gone. Just as I think that, since Phillips was directly involved with Oswald in the anti FPCC campaign, those would be gone after the assassination. But what we do have, which I tried to summarize in this seven pages is pretty convincing. And that does not include his activities in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 with Ferrie, Shaw and Banister. Or the fact that the KGB bugged his apartment since they also suspected he was an agent.

As everyone knows, the infamous BYP and the pic of Walkers' house were allegedly found on Saturday, the 23rd, the second day of the search at the Paine home. Now, as most of us know, there were cameras found at the garage. But as some of us do not know, the Imperial Reflex camera was not one of them. And this is the camera that the WC and FBI will say was used to take the incriminating photos listed above. The cameras the DPD found were 1.) an American Stereo Realist, 2.) a Russian Cuera, and 3.) the Minox--which Hoover was so desperate to make disappear. That was it. There was no Imperial Reflex camera listed on the DPD initial property report. As I wrote in Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, this created a serious evidentiary problem: "All three cameras produced pictures equivalent to 35 mm photos. Yet the photos in evidence were developed on 620 roll film."

Let us recap: I have shown here at least four rather fascinating instances in which the Paines, especially Ruth, have been shown to be in rather compromising positions in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald, both before and after the assassination. I list them below with a result after; whether or not these results were deliberate, I do not really know, but they did happen. 1. The camouflage of Oswald's Minox camera Result: altering evidence to discount Oswald's intel ties 2. The failure to relay the Adams call Result: Oswald takes the job at the TSBD, putting him on the motorcade route 3. The hogwash about the garage light being left on by Oswald the night before the assassination Result: implying Oswald had picked up and wrapped the MC rifle the night before in order to kill Kennedy 4. The Buddy Walters/Luby's incident. Result: Clearly indicating the Paines were involved in monitoring left leaning students and Castro sympathizers in Dallas Now, I have also adduced plentiful evidence to demonstrate that the Paines are not what they appear to be, at least before the Warren Commission. That they were directly related to extremely well off people who worked with and for the CIA in various overthrow attempts of foreign governments. That Mike Paine was on at least two trust funds at the time owing to those relatives. And that Ruth's father and sister were directly related to the CIA--something that Ruth refused to admit to under oath at the Clay Shaw grand jury, even though she was asked the direct question. Let us now turn to another camera related issue which emanates from that curious collection of evidence that so conveniently appeared from Mrs. Paine's garage.

To Brancato and Dave H: If you go back and read the first post I made here, you will see that I deliberately started this thread so I would not have to post on the previous one started by PT. And I explained my reasons for this there--because IMO, PT does not know how to handle evidence and/or facts. The statement he makes above about me and the FBI now shows that not only does he not know how to measure evidence in the case, but now he wants to completely distort what I have written about this case and my view of it. I have never said or even implied that the FBI, or Hoover was in on the plot. There is no doubt in my mind they were in on the cover up. And one of the worst parts of Bugliosi's inflated book is where he tries to deny this. And I deliberately chose to write a chapter in Reclaiming Parkland showing he was wrong. But to give you just one example, I am of the school that one of the key points in the conspiracy is Mexico City. I tend to believe that Oswald likely did not go to Mexico. If he did, he did not do any of the things the WC and CIA said he did. About six weeks after the assassination, Hoover wrote on the marginalia of a memo, words to the effect: OK, but I cannot forget how the CIA snowed us on Oswald in Mexico City. If you ever needed any further evidence that Hoover was not in on the plot, that should be it. In fact, as many writers have said, the JFK case was the real beginning of the split between the CIA and FBI. Not just on Oswald in MC, but also with Nosenko. The FBI said Nosenko was a genuine defector. Angleton said he was not. The FBI was right, as I also think this was part of CIA camouflage about the JFK case. If Hoover had been in on it, he would not have disagreed. So, no, I do not think, and never have thought, that Hoover and the FBI was in on the plot. In fact, this is one of the biggest gripes I have against that pile of baloney the Torbitt Document. They say that the plot was carried out by Division Five of the FBI--with about six other agencies. All except the CIA. This is one more example of PT's distorting lens.

BTW, before beginning on the Imperial Reflex Camera mystery, as part of the whole Paine garage quagmire, let me wrap up Carol's wonderful work on the whole Minox Camera charade. As I noted on the BOR excerpt, it strongly appears that Hoover enlisted both Odum and Shanklin in order to make Oswald's Minox camera disappear, even though it had been clearly noted on the Dallas Police inventory and photographed. He also wanted the FBI to interview the Paines on this. To make a long story short--and i strongly advise the reader to listen to the Black Op excerpt noted above in this thread on page 1,--the Paines participated in the little playlet directed by Hoover and the FBI, and now Oswald's Minox, which was clearly found by the Dallas Police, became for the FBI, Mike Paine's Minox. Incredibly, this whole fiction was never explored by the WC. But here is my question, if the FBI buys all of that, then why today are there TWO MINOXES in the National Archives? And further, why is one sealed shut? Like I have always maintained, you don't have to pull off a perfect crime. You just control the cover up.

EL: The question is; what exactly were Ruth, Mike and Bouhe up to? I think it had something to do with Oswald’s employment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. ​Isn't there also evidence that the Baron was in on getting LHO that job also? “[stovall] said that when Oswald came to work he gave an address in Irving which he later changed to a post office Box number presumably in Dallas.” I agree Ed, this is interesting also. And I assume your point about the transportation is that you suspect it was Ruth driving him around?

Robert Charles Dunne, one of the best writers and researchers this board ever saw, once went through this whole "Oswald beat his wife" issue at length and in depth. In a tour de force performance, one worthy of Sylvia Meagher, he demonstrated that this whole rigamarole originated from a single source. Which, of course, if that is accurate, it raises a lot of questions about Bouhe and the White Russian community that the Paines interacted with. (A question that George Micahel Evica also brought up in his final book A Certain Arrogance.) If you recall, Bouhe also advised Marina after the assassination, that it was just a coincidence that he shared a pool with Jack Ruby, And in something really inexplicable, there is the following: " On the Property Clerk's Invoice for the search of Ruth Paine's home on the 23rd, the following item appears, Postal Form bearing George A. Bouhe, 4740 Homer St., Dallas, Tex. Postal Form bearing name Lee Oswald dated 11/20/63" This perhaps means that the form for Oswald was then attached to one for Bouhe. But what on earth would a postage due form be doing at Ruth Paine's? And who wold attach it t the form due for Oswald's mystery package? And why? Bouhe is the man who's name surfaced in Marian Oswald's testimony to Garrison's grand jury in an odd way. Marina mentioned him as one of her English tutors in Dallas. Garrison asked if she knew that Bouhe lived a door down from Jack Ruby; that they knew each other, and shared a common swimming pool. Marina said she did know that. Because right after the assassination, Bouhe came to visit her. He told her that it was all just a coincidence that he happened to live next door to her husband's killer. Bouhe was the "organization man" who kept the files for the White Russian community." (Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, pgs. 206-07) As Evica notes, it is not easy to explain the Paines' close relationship with the White Russian community either from a religious point of view, or from an ideological point of view. But we do know through the work of Melanson that the Tolstoy Foundation was part of the funding for their Russian Orthodox Church, and as he noted, that foundation was CIA associated. And as I have shown at length above, the family ties of Ruth and Michael certainly suggest a CIA attar. In my book quoted above, I touched on this apparent paradox in a glancing way. (p. 196) But I probably should have gone into it a bit deeper. I hope Greg does so in his next volume since I think its an important point. Because, I for one, have always been intrigued by the association of the supposedly liberal and progressive Paines with the rather rightwing White Russian community, which, as Evica pointed out, had religious rites and customs that were not at all Quakerish. Because if one looks closely at this combination of maneuvering by the Paines and the White Russians, around Oswald and Marina, it does more than slightly resemble the book and film Rosemary's Baby. If one recalls, that sixties mystery thriller was about a witches/warlock coven that secretly bribes, drugs and then seduces a young couple to fulfill an agenda of their own. In my view, its an apt parallel.

Greg: Your other comment about Krystinik's memory of Michael, I should add, that is really interesting also. A guy who had access to that kind of a trust fund, and he is worried about his bank account balance. BTW, isn't Tommy a riot? All of this great info here, and all he cares to do is take a shot at me. Sandy was right about him. When will your new volume be coming out? PS And no I did not forget about the possible Ekdahl, Hyde relationship. That would be a killer. It would seem to bolster the 1957 Navy document I sued in the first edition of Destiny Betrayed.

Thanks for the correction Greg. I did not have the book in front of me. You are right, that does make it even more interesting in the possible context of Oswald.

JT: I don't care at all about my antecedents. Not one wit. Did Ruth or Michael care about their antecedents? You don't care about your brother or sister? Not one wit. Most unusual man. Ruth sure did. She would not tell Garrison who Sylvia worked for, and then mislead him on where she lived. (Sylvia did not live in Virginia at the time, she lived in Maryland.) And if, like Mike Paine, I was collecting money from a trust fund from two family trusts, which was the equivalent of over 2 million today, yep I would care about them.

Now, Ruth had a sister named Sylvia. Her husband, John, also worked for AID. When Ruth was testifying before the Clay Shaw Grand Jury, Garrison asked her about this relationship. Specifically, what branch of government Sylvia worked for. Ruth replied that , no she did not know. Even though she had visited her in the summer of 1963. Garrison then asked, if she knew why her sister's file was classified by the National Archives. Ruth's reply was priceless: "No, is it?" Garrison said most of it was, would Ruth know the reason. To which Ruth replied no. It turns out, as Greg Parker has discovered, that Sylvia was involved in a series of tests for pilots to the precursor of the U 2 program. In other words she was used in CIA screening projects, and that is who she was working for in 1963. Now please count the connections I have enumerated above. They are absolutely myriad, from United Fruit and Guatemala, to Bay of Pigs and David Phillips, to CIA overflight operations. Why is virtually none of this in either the WR or the HSCA volumes? Why did the critical community have to discover what Allen Dulles knew on his own? Maybe that explains why Hoover was so confident that the Paines could help him out in hiding Oswald's Minox camera? Or what Mike Paine was doing at Luby's across from SMU? And there is still more to come. Have a Happy New Year.

Jon, I am not done yet with this angle.

Ruth Paine's family originated from New York before moving to Ohio. Her father, William Avery Hyde was a high executive for Nationwide Insurance. He had worked for the OSS in World War II. He ended up becoming the Agency for International Development's (AID) regional director for all of Latin America. As most of us know, AID was later revealed to be a frequent CIA cover agency. And the CIA used it a lot for covert operations. Her father once worked for ICA, International Cooperative Alliance, a CIA associated agency that George DeMohrenschidt also worked for at one time. As Steve Jones reported later, all these indications turned out to be more than suggestive. Ruth later admitted to a friend after she left Central America during the Contra war that her father did work for the CIA.

Now that we have shown some rather questionable actions by Ruth and Michael Paine, and also have indicated the awareness of Allen Dulles about these areas, let us peel back the curtain on their full backgrounds. Doing each separately. Michael's ancestors go back to the Forbes and Cabots, the so called First Families of America. His grand uncle, Cameron Forbes was governor and later ambassador to the Philippines. In fact, Michael was benefiting from six digit trust funds at the time of the assassination from these families. More to the point, Cameron was on the board, along with other Cabot relatives, of Untied Fruit. One of these relatves was Thomas Dudley Cabot, another cousin of Michael In fact, Thomas was actually a former president of United Fruit. In 1951, he was working in security affairs of the State Dept. His brother, John, was also in the State Department around this time. John was exchanging information with Maurice Gatlin, Guy Banister's legal buddy. The were talking about the upcoming CIA coup in Guatemala. Later, in the early sixties, Thomas was president of Gibraltar Steamship Corporation, which leased barren land off the coast of Honduras called Swan Island. Gibraltar was a phony company, a CIA front. It was on this island that David Phillips established Radio Swan, the CIA station broadcasting into Cuba during the Bay of Pigs operation.

A blow up sheep? That's pretty bad. Glad she is in a retirement center.