Chris Davidson

Distance from TSBD physical corner to WC frame 161 approx 86Ft. Towner film at 18.3 fps runs 76 frames past JFK aligned with the TSBD. 76/18.3fps=4.15 sec. Myers mufti-film sync study has the limo (18.3 fps) traveling from the end of Towner to Z150 in 32 frames and 1.75 sec. If both camera's are actually running at 18.3 fps, then from the TSBD physical corner to Z150 this is approx 108 frames and 5.9 sec. To get to frame 161, another 11 frames is needed. Myers has the time between 10 frames (frame150 and 160 as .55sec.) One more frame would be another .05 sec added to .55= approx .6sec This scenario equates to 119 frames@6.5 sec=18.3fps A 24fps scenario equates to 24x6.5sec=156 frames. 5 frames short of the magic 161. But right at another splice in the extant film. Now take a look at WC CE884(provided previously) and the adjustment made between 161 and 166, they have the limo traveling .9ft in 5 frames. Warning!! Now I have a comparison of 119 frames and 161 frames between the two scenarios. That is a difference of approx 42 frames. A little relevant testimony provided. Drive it home Ford!! Caveat: Distance traveled in 119 frames is approx 78ft. Distance traveled in 161 frames approx 86ft. Still working on that one. chris

James, If you have the ability to reduce Drommer down to 71.5%, you would have my amended plat. If not, I will post it at that size, a little later. Just a quick recap. Physical corner of the TSBD is the alignment point for JFK while in the limo (Towner Splice) used by the WC as their starting point for measurements. Towner film at 18.3 fps runs 76 frames past JFK aligned with the TSBD. Towner film at 24 fps runs 100 frames past JFK aligned with the TSBD. Combined Drommer and FBI plat provided with measurements. chris

Hi James, Now would be an appropriate time to post the partial plat. A little explanation before I do. The plat is Drommer and the FBI 2/7/1964 plat combined. Complete and total credit for the FBI plat goes to TOM PURVIS for graciously providing me with it. To get these to align as close as possible this is what I have done: Drommer in its original form has the incorrect width for Houston St. (Thanks to Craig Lamson for pointing that out some time ago) In order to remedy that, I had to reduce Drommer to 71.5%, now Houston St. is 60ft wide. The scale is 1inch=10ft. The FBI plat was reduced down to 35.75% wide x 36% high. I don't like changing the aspect ratio on things, but I believe a 1/4 % difference is within reason due to paper folds, etc etc. I then rotated the complete plat 26 degrees clockwise. The fit among the 2 plats is within 1/8 inch or 1.25ft. The red text and lines are mine along with the thinner blue vertical and horizontal lines. Using this I will continue on with the shenanigans of the WC. chris

David, The film was running at approx 14 fps. 14/18.3=.76 chris P.S. Keep that 3/4 ratio in mind, though.

In a previous post these are the times and frames I gave for Tina Towner's film. 92frames x 18.3 fps=5.02 seconds. This aligns JFK with the physical corner of the TSBD. 76frames x 18.3 fps=4.15 seconds. I've always held to the belief that her camera was running at the speed it was manufactured to run at, in this case 18 fps but let's make it 18.3 so it's paralleling Z's camera. Myers has it syncing with all other films at 22.8 fps a 25% increase over its defined specs. If Towner is running at approx 18.3 fps then Z should be running at 22.8 fps or above. (More than likely, 24fps). There is that 18.3/24 fps ratio. But its Towner to Z, not Z to Towner. If Z is running at 24 fps for 5.02 seconds, the amount of time it takes to get JFK to the TSBD corner in Towner is: 24 fps x 5.02sec=120frames. And overall, if the Z film is running at 24 fps for the total frames in Towner, then it becomes: 24fps x 4.15sec=100frames = 120+100 So, a camera running at 24 fps the length of the Towner segment would yield a total of aprox 220 frames. Frame 1 would start with JFK aligned with the physical corner of the TSBD and end at frame 100 when filming at 24fps. Frame 100, now there's an easy number to work with. chris

David, Thank you for showing the WC "rate x time =distance" formula is bogus. Hi James, The 644 frames is an end point for "total frames vs frames per second" when used as a ratio of 3/4. In other words, a 3/4 ratio would equate to 483/644 which also equates to approx 18.3/24 ratio. 486/644=.754 still very close to 3/4. Keep in mind, the difference between 644 and 483 is 161. It's called working both ends of a math problem. What I subtract from the front needs adding back at some point. I don't want to discuss the distances just yet, pertaining to WC CE884, but I will eventually. Hang in there. chris

Films usually have a starting point (frame 1) and end point (last frame). Math starts with a question and ends with an answer. I'll start with Zone1 from the previous post since that includes frame 1-(161 WC starting point). If the WC started their calculations with frame 161, that tells me there must be a frame 1 starting point. If they didn't have footage of the limo, at the beginning of the Z film, around the Elm St. turn, they could use the Towner film. How so? They could have used a landmark within the plaza to align JFK and start their frame counting from that spot. (Landmark would be the physical corner of the TSBD). Now, to do that, they would have to be in possession of the Towner film back in 1963/64. What does the Towner film show when JFK is near the TSBD corner? It shows a splice and removal of frames. The position of JFK after the splice is aligned with the corner of the TSBD. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/TownerSplice-1.gif So a starting point has been set. The WC quite easily could have used the Towner frame count at 18.3 FPS to arrive at approx 167 or 168 total frames depending on the missing spliced frame count. How would the math work on this? Including the splice frames (approx 8) to where JFK is aligned with the corner of the TSBD is 92 frames. That leaves 76 frames from the corner on down Elm St. 92 frames at 18.3 fps=5.02 sec. 76frames at 18.3 fps=4.15 sec. Apparently they thought about starting the frame calculations at frame 168 but eventually changed their minds. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Frame168.png Instead, there is an approx 7 to 8 frame splice and their official calculations start with Frame 161. Frame 168-161 = 7 frames. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Frame161-1.png Also take note of the distance adjustment made for frames 161-166 of .9ft traveled in 5 frames. chris

The following numbers are fairly accurate, within 3 frames I believe in the overall scheme of things. Frame 161 = Where the WC starts there measurements=161 frames Frame 322=Halfway point in film Frame 483=Total frames in MPI version of Z film (Actually 486, but this is not divisible by 4 in whole frames) Frame 644=End of film. The relationship of these numbers is 161+161=322+161=483 +161=644 I'll refer to them as four equal zones. 161=1/4 322=2/4 483=3/4 644=4/4 chris

Thanks David, My frame100 reference has nothing to do with the pre-limo footage, at least in relation to what I am looking for. chris

Hi David, Thank you but, All credit goes to Tom, I was just the delivery boy on this one. Your following quote is very applicable to the entire scenario: Add to this the incorrect survey data and the final shot at station 4+95 (15 feet in front of Altgens) and we all can see the real problems in using any of the photos/films in relation to one another... I will try enlightening you with some more math in a little bit. Hang in there, chris P.S. If you or someone else remembers testimony about "frame100" and Tom Purvis commenting about the cat almost being let out of the bag, I'd appreciate it being posted. I thought it was Shaneyfelt's testimony but I can't find it.

Photos next.

Tom has asked me to post the following on this forum. Photos will come after his descriptions. chris

Chris, The link doesn't work. Greg, Thanks for the heads up. Check back to my #322 posting, I have deleted the link and reposted it. Sorry about that !!! chris

Best frame I could find. This would be approx. 4 seconds after the Altgen's photo, according to available extant films. chris

It might be easier to remove the flap and/or pocket off the existing shirt. chris

Still worth asking....when, if alterations were made, was the time frame that this could happen in?....I ask in all sincerity... And Bernice and Robin, thanks for the pics...The original paper scans show much the same.... Hi Steve, Over on Duncan's forum, I once again posted this, which is from a 11-23-63 newspaper. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Altgens6.png The red arrows indicate detail in the limo flag which I have not seen on any version of Altgen's, ever!!! A response back from Thierry was this: interesting pic, but this one is altered as were many prints in newspaper. The tradition was to get a negative paper from the picture and DRAW upon it with a pencil. so it was clearer were the the pencil was. On this print we can see airbrush behind lovelady, jfk's head stretched and they put grey clear on heads and the limo. http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/alteredp.jpg I just don't believe someone took the time to figure out what was missing from the flag and then recreated the detail. If so, they did an exquisite job on this part of it. A look at the original neg would help greatly. chris

Hi David, Thank you for the info. So, if I wanted to convert from slower to faster, lets say 18 to 24fps, would this include the same process? chris

From Gerda over at Duncan's forum: Chris, the Bell sequence with the limo towards the underpass does not have 80 frames in the original version. The Lost Bullet Bell sequence you chose for your example is 80+ frames because it is slowed down and contains inbetween frames that were created because NG used a slo-mo filter on them. I'll post more when I have the time... Thanks Gerda, I did not know they had created extra movement frames by using a slow motion filter. The gif I created shows the movement in each frame. Do you have a copy of an original Bell, (not Grodens), which shows this segment in its entirety? thanks, chris

Or perhaps how much MORE time was erased from Zapruder than Bell. (Also notice the man in Bell reacting in shock not at anything regarding the Presidential Limo, but rather at the Queen Mary passing.) Hi Daniel, No matter how it's sliced, it comes up sour grapes. chris

Nix ending frame. Altgen's last photo of limo. http://24.152.179.96:8400/D0EA4/Nix_Ends Jackie starts her "too fast" slide back into her seat. http://24.152.179.96:8400/DFF7C/J2.gif Z doesn't fit with Bell. Previous post. Bell film starts after previous mentioned actions. Add selective splicing to the mix. All occurring around the same time. chris

It's always nice to have common objects in different films. For instance, the couple in the background of Z381, and the shadow caused by the overpass in Z469. That's a span of 88 Zframes. http://24.152.179.96:8400/DED86/common.png Both are seen in the Bell gif I have supplied. http://24.152.179.96:8400/71131/common.gif The Bell gif is 80 frames. There is a BIG PROBLEM with these two segments. It takes the limo approx the same amount of frames from what we see in Bell, as what we see in Z, for the rear end of the limo to be covered by the overpass shadow. What's the problem??? Look at the position of the limo in relation to the couple in both films. They are not even close, yet it takes the approx same number of frames for the limo to reach it's common point. Reality says the limo should be much farther down the street than what we see in Z381 in order to match the frame count in Bell. Now, think of the SS followup car as being in the approx position the limo is at Z381. This should give you a pretty good idea as to how much time was erased from Z. As a measuring tool, I used the light pole down on the north side of Elm, just ahead of the limo, that we see in the beginning of Bell. Then timed how long it takes for the SS followup car to get to the same position. It looks like at least 5 seconds and probably even longer. chris

http://24.152.179.96:8400/45DA3/Altgens.png The red line indicates Jackie's back and behind. The green line runs along the top of the rear seat. The yellow arrow points to something which rises above the rear seat and is between Jackie and the rear seat. The only object I know of that fits this description, JFK'S HEAD This creates a problem for the Zfilm as JFK's head is never between Jackie and the rear seat. Please watch the initial gif I supplied and compare. Also, JFK's head begins to fall (putting it below the top of the rear seat, even when viewed from Z's position) as Jackie is sliding back into the limo. You can match Jackie's head position in Altgen's with one of those frames. chris P.S. As I stated previously, JFK was in Jackie's way when she tried to sit back down. Hence the Jackie pause we see in the film and her incredible speed at which she accomplished this feat. Frames get pulled and "film action" accelerates.

http://24.152.179.96:8400/2C732/A.gif Using John Costella's panorama for size and position, I have taken the questionable ghost image and sized it to fit. You can find it just above the full sprocket hole. The red line aligns with the Main St. curb line, which traverses the red coat/white hooded person, if you have troubles locating him or her. This should now give you a fairly accurate position for this person when viewing the Nix gif posted previously. chris

http://24.152.179.96:8400/4C594/NIX.gif Nix stabilized. Still looking for the red jacket/white hooded person. chris

Something to ponder. When does the Nix film stop in relation to the previously posted Jackie sequence? Coincidence!!! chris