Wim Dankbaar

Above information comes from Chauncey Holt. I just found some corroboration for Franklyn and Downs in this book, page 48 http://books.google.com/books?id=shcVfvwog...zFtTjY#PPA49,M1

Cesar is still living in Chula Vista , CA. His son (same name) is a police leutenant. Spoke to him once over the phone. He said he had taken note of my "accusations" and would ask his father if he wanted to speak to me. I have heard nothing since. I think this was 2 or 3 years ago. My "accusations" were that Diosdado and David Morales were the mysterious visitors of Silvia Odio with Lee Oswald . I believe both were under David Phillips. I also believe Phillips sent Diosdado to Veciana after the assassination in order to check if Veciana would keep his mouth on the sighting of Phillips (as Maurice Bishop) with Oswald. Wim

James , meanwhile I found some more: Larry Downs Served his aprenticeship at JM/Wave in Miami during the halcyon days of the agence; later was CIA base chief at Can Tho. Was one of the "cowboys" who offered [Chauncey] Holt assistance after he was indicted. Tom Franklin Was deputy to Larry Dwons at Can Tho; also came from JM/Wave , Miami. Franklin was another cardcarrying CIA agent who offered [Chauncey] Holt "unofficial"assistance after he was indicted. Philip Custer Paramilitary expert with the CIA who trained merceneries in the U.S. in violation of the CIA charter; was later base chief in Danang.

Start reading at page 17 (Tanenbaum) : http://jfkmurdersolved.com/pdf/DiosdadoHSCA.pdf

Sorry, misread something. I took "siete semanas" as "siete meses". Hence I read six weeks later as six months later. There is nothing new in this article. However there is evidence that Oswald was in Mexico City (at the hotel Luma) in 1963, BEFORE september 1963. That is not widely known, but maybe that is because the CIA wanted pubility for his september visit, not for other visits to Mexico City. Wim http://www.notiver.com.mx/index.php?id=94204 Los días del asesino de Kennedy en México Publicado: 2007 Nov 22 - 16:04 • El asesinato del ex presidente de EU tiene claves dispersas en nuestro país. En 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald visitó el DF durante 5 días, y siete semanas después cometió el atentado en Dallas El asesinato de John F. Kennedy es un misterio sin resolver aún, con claves dispersas en México. Una hebra de la trama de crimen y activismo político que oculta la verdad, señala que el presunto magnicida solitario, Lee Harvey Oswald, durante cinco días visitó la capital mexicana, y siete semanas después cometió el atentado, en Dallas, Texas. En la ciudad de México entabló contactos dentro de la esfera del espionaje y contraespionaje de esas fechas de clímax de la Guerra Fría. Su nombre dio la vuelta al mundo el 22 de noviembre de 1963, como el asesino de Kennedy. Sin embargo, al tercer día fue muerto a tiros por Jacob Rubenstein, conocido en el mundo del hampa de Dallas, como Jack Ruby. Se llevó a la tumba los motivos del cuarto homicidio de un presidente de Estados Unidos. La investigación oficial del asesinato de Kennedy, de la Comisión Warren, concluyó que Oswald actuó solo, sin apoyo de una conspiración internacional o de grupos de su país. Con todo, 44 años después de aquél viernes 22 de noviembre que sacudió al mundo, sigue vigente la pregunta: ¿Quién mató a Kennedy? Aquel fin de semana en la ciudad de México, una vez que se conoció el nombre del atacante del presidente de Estados Unidos, los servicios de Inteligencia de la Secretaría de Gobernación fueron directos a los escenarios por los que había pasado el criminal. Lo habían “monitoreado”. Y tan sólo horas después, en lo que fue una investigación relámpago de la Dirección Federal de Seguridad (DFS), el gobierno contaba con un reporte detallado de las actividades del magnicida, entre el 26 de septiembre y el 3 de octubre de ese 1963. En el expediente JFK, resguardado por el Archivo General de la Nación (AGN), sobresale que Oswald visitó la Ciudad de México sólo como “fotógrafo”; realizó solicitudes de visas (que le fueron negadas), en los consulados de Cuba y la Unión Soviética; su enojo fue exacerbado ante las negativas consulares, que habrían frustrado su propósito de volver a Moscú. En agosto había sido encarcelado en Nueva Orleans por perturbar la paz, al ser atacado por anticastristas, cuando distribuía volantes del “Comité pro Juego Limpio con Cuba”. La Forma Migratoria número 8 (FM-8) de Oswald se conserva en la Galería 1 del AGN. Está mecanografiada en sus secciones de “entrada” y “salida” del país, y tiene su firma autógrafa: “Lee H Oswald”. No usó pasaporte, sino su acta de nacimiento. Así, su huella de salida a México quedó borrada para los servicios de seguridad que iba a derrotar al atacar a su presa, un presidente en campaña electoral. Una ficha informativa resume esa semana en México, de la cual nada supieron la CIA, FBI y el Departamento de Estado, que vigilaban desde hacía años a Oswald, por un aparente afecto a la causa de Fidel Castro. El Servicio Secreto también le perdió la pista. En 25 líneas, fechadas el 5 de diciembre, la Dirección Federal de Seguridad sintetizó horas y días de interrogatorios a un grupo de detenidos, y el rastreo de Oswald entre Nuevo Laredo y el Distrito Federal. “Se hospedó en el hotel ‘Comercio’, en la habitación 18, el 27 de septiembre; salió rumbo a Laredo en el autobús 340, de Transportes Frontera, el 2 de octubre, en el asiento 4, con el nombre: “Oswald”, se detalla. Dicho hotel, hoy es reducto urbano de drogadictos, prostitutas, homosexuales; es tierra de nadie, nido de inseguridad absoluta. No hay allí contemporáneos de aquél otoño en que alojó a la muerte por cinco días. El trabajo de la Federal de Seguridad tuvo su sello clásico, como lo confirma una respuesta a la queja de la embajada de Cuba, por la detención de la empleada (fue liberada con rapidez) que había atendido a Oswald cuando le negaron la visa. “En efecto (...) con la finalidad de precisar algunos hechos, la Dirección Federal de Seguridad la sometió a un interrogatorio”. En los papeles, guardados en el AGN, un declarante narra una novelesca trama internacional de conspiración magnicida, escenificada en calles de la capital... hasta que al final, “el de la voz” trunca el relato de intriga cubana y da un remate personal: Mentía hasta la fantasía, a fin de provocar una reacción enérgica de Estados Unidos, movido por su “profundo odio contra el comunismo”. Hoy, 44 años después, el cuarto 18 del hotel “Comercio” encierra uno de los misterios más grandes del siglo XX: ¿Quién mató a Kennedy?

Not the same guy. They have an opposite curve in the nose. Left nose is a slide, the other a bow. Wim

Could well have been Oswald's lunch. Dr. Pepper was his softdrink. http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/IMG_1212.JPG Wim

Maybe Lamar Wadron and Thom Hartmann, in light of the interview above, would be so kind to explain the statement on Dave Perry's site here: http://davesjfk.com/holt.html What exactly was not credible? Wim

Subject: Holt2 Date: 11-Jun-93 at 08:25 From: Thom Hartmann, 76702,765 TO: Anthony Marsh,72127,2301 1>lking about. A: Harvey was there. Q: OK, William Harvey. A: That is the only one. Q: OK. A: Cause I don't think there was anybody else there. But I have all, I have the initials of everyone on there. On the top as who was there and discussed this. And I scribbled this on a two pages. Q: What name were you going under at that time? A: December 1970. Pardon me? Q: What name were you going under? A: Sigler. Q: Was this the first time? Did you know Harvey before then? Q: That is what I was going to ask. So this was the first time you met with William Harvey? A: That is the first time I met him. Q: Was at this meeting? A: Yeah. It was at this meeting. Q: Who vouched for you? Who established your bonifides to be at that meeting? A: Licavoli. Q: Who many approximately were there? A: There was probably as many as eight people there. I, but I will have to look on the sheet and see who, that was there. Q: Fax that to me tomorrow. A: I will. Q: I have got a fax. A: Oh, yeah. Q: What was the purpose of this meeting? A: Well they were, they were, that is when they were going to discuss, the first time, that I had ever heard of Mongoose. As a matter of fact, they were discussing.. Q: Was it called Mongoose that day? A: No, I don't think so. I think that what, I think they more or lese decided they were going to call him Mongoose cause they were, they were talking about what acronym they were going to use and they said well obviously we can't use anything that we can't use Cuba. We can't use, we won't be able to use that, why don't we use something over in Thailand or something like that. So they, Thailand, that was MO, and they were thinking well, you know, well how about Mongoose? You know. So that is how they came up with that. Q: I am sorry - A: No go ahead. Q: So OK, the purpose of the meeting was just kind of a general planning meeting? A: A general planning meeting as to what was going to take off. We actually, we actually did absolutely practically nothing as far as, you know, as far as Mongoose was ….. Q: When you say we, you mean? A: Licavolie. Q: Licavoli and yourself. A: You know Licavoli at that time was, he was quite up in years, and I doubt that, you know, if they would I mean, they only selected the thing because he knew Giancana and Roselli real well. And, they probably felt they were rather safe because the Grace Ranch was a fortress. Had a tremendously huge gate, all kinds of security, and but, although they were always worried about sweeping it for bugs you know. If we went out, I went out and talked to Licavoli cause it hadn't have been swept very recently, we used to go out, where the cattle were, you know, and get out in the corral, or where the cattle roaming around you know. Q: So Licavoli really didn't, he didn't do much? A: He didn't do anything at all. Q: Was there any role? A: No, except …. Q: Kind of providing a place for meetings? A: Yes and providing the airstrip if anybody needed to be ….. Q: An airstrip? A: To come into there, an airstrip. Or, if they were anybody wanted to come in from out of the country illegally, they chose that route. They came to Frank Milano’s place, in Vera Cruz. He had a ranch in Vera Cruz. Then they would fly into, they would come into Tucson, you can come in there. The, uh, surveillance coming in,you know, when you come across, where you come across in Tucson, I have a mental block, I can't think of the name of that Mexican town. A little Mexican town, they came across there and they had, the terrain was very good, the terrain for flying. That you could fly under any kind of radar. That was the traditional, that was the traditional route for, and when Frank Camarado, who was Q: Drugs? A: Yeah, drugs. And, when Frank Camarado who was Licavoli's brother-in-law, he was deported twice and that he came back over, both times that route, and he was in Havana when he died. He was in Havana getting ready to come back the third time. So they fly out, they fly out from anywhere they wanted to. Central America, or anywhere, they would fly into Frank Milano's place and then on up to … .. Q: Right on out? A: They would fly right on out. Q: Let me ask you, that was the first time you met Harvey, did you have dealings with him later? A: Not much. Q: What would be? A: Not much. Q: Did you see him later or ever talk to him again? A: Well, maybe. Q: You didn't know that he was Central Intelligence that day? A: Oh yeah, yeah. Q: Well did you know Angleton? A: No, I knew of him. I knew who Angleton was. Never met him. Q: So on Harvey, you said you did or didn't talk to him again later? A: Oh yeah, I talked to him from time to time. Over the years, you know, all the way up until they, until they cashiered him out and so forth. Q: Was that like on an official level? Or, like an example. A: You know sort of a quasi official thing, you know, and but, he was meeting with, he was meeting all the time, meeting a lot of times with Roselli and he was meeting with Giancana, and meeting with Maheu. Q: Do you recall any other specific time when you did meet, like in the 60's? Maybe? A: No. Q: Or may have talked to him? A: I can't remember. After that .. Q: After that one meeting, in February A: The Bay of Pigs. No, I can't remember any specific conversations unless I, unless I had time to actually look through all these, I got just, I got boxes and boxes of stuff that has been stored in one place or another and every now and then I come across. I had all this stuff, I mean, I kept all this stuff all these years. And, the stuff back there, I probably never have any kind of a need for it you know, then I would keep it you know. Q: How many hours approximately can you remember how many hours that, December, 1960 meeting lasted? A: It was quite a while. Of course, it was almost like Q: A social Q: December 6, 61. A: 61. Q: This was after the Bay of Pigs? A: Yes. Q: 61, December 61. A: Well, you know it lasted quite a while because it was sort of a social type thing too. And I assume, I am just saying, but I assume that probably Roselli and Giancana and Licavoli were also talking about other things. Now when you came there, the Grace Ranch was set up like a motel. I mean they had a lot of, you know, just little, looked like a motel. You know, except the big ranch house. And, so everybody stayed there and everybody had their own rooms and this that and the other. And ….. Q: Sounds like a nice resort. A: Oh yeah, had two olympic sized swimming pools, and had a riding stable. Q: Had you been going there for a long time? A: Oh yeah. I had been there a long time. Q: I just noticed a couple of other people, we talked a lot about Montoya. Let me ask you one question about this, what about communications did you all establish any way to communicate with each other? Say you get in touch with me,in this way or, were there any codes or any? A: Well when I talked, when I talked to Licavoli, and the same thing if I talked to anyone else, Licavoli, for instance, or if he called me, he had a list of probably half a dozen public telephones. He would call me, say in Beverly Hills, he would call me. And he would, then I, he would ask me to call him back and he would say, #1, #2 or so forth, at such a time, and then I would call him back. And this was the way we operated almost with anybody, unless, if you were to go and talk to someone, or somebody called you and there was something innocent. And of course, that always was sometimes was kind of bad because Licavoli, when they were trying to nail Licavoli, and he had purchased this painting. These two kids had stolen a painting from their -- and was scribbling in my own hand writing, there is a lot of stuff, on there. That a lot of stuff on there, so that was that meeting and I don't remember how long it lasted, except for the meetings, the initials that are on there, I don't …… Q: Do you remember if they were discussing like assinating Castro? A: Oh yeah. They were talking, oh yeah. They were talking about, they were talking about assinating Kenn, then they were talking about weapons and they were talking about assinating him, what they were going to have to do and so forth, that is all on the memo. The full thing, just like, it is almost like the minutes of a corporate board meeting. Just sitting there, you know. Q: What, what, let me ask you too, cause we customs, a lot of people know a lot about Bosch and Veciana and ….. A: Oh yeah. Q: And we talked about Montoya. Let’s, we just want to get as much as you know about this guy named Sierra. What do you know about him? Like when did you meet him? What he knew about? A: Uh, well we met him, oh we probably met him 59 or 60. Maybe. Uh, and knew him up through oh, up until he got killed. Which was in the 70's. And, we were in Puerto Rico three or four days before, that he ….. Q: You mean in 59? A: No, no in, before he got killed. Q: Oh I see, OK. A: We had met him, he was from, he was from Puerto Rico. And, so he was down there and he had been making apparently they, he had been making, he had been making some statements about us. We went down to ask him if that was actually true. And uh, then, a few days later, you now, just, you know he was killed. Q: What was he doing? You said you met him around 59, what kind of things was he doing in 60, 61, 62, 63? A: Well he was a part of the, one of those violent Cuban groups, you know, he was connected with Alfa 66, and he was connected with Mano Blanco with the White Hand, two or three other …….. Q: Where did he mainly operate out of? Do you know? A: What area? Q: Yeah. A: Miami. Q: So he was one of the Miami guys? A: Yeah. He was in the Miami group. He was into terrorism, no matter what. Q: Terrorism in terms of hitting people, blowing stuff up? A: Anybody. Blowing up airplanes, anything else. He was just as violent as Orlando Bosch. Q: Do you know if he ever made any trips into Cuba or anything like that? A: Yeah, he was in Cuba all the time. Q: Where he was ever one of the people who tried to assassinate Castro? Is that anything he ever talked about? A: I don't remember specifically talking about it, but it probably could be. Q: What do you think happened to him after that day in Dallas? A: Oh, I think he went back, probably went back to Miami. Q: Did you …….. A: And, uh, I got a lot of stuff on him Q: On Seraphin? A: I, we Q: Did we get to finish this thing? Q: This is amazing. Q: What actually happened? A: I mean I always felt that hey wait a minute, Q: Description in 1963, how would you describe it to somebody? A: About an average height. About 5'8 or 9. You know typically Latin look. Q: But what did he look like? A: Oh, yeah he looked Latin. Q: Black hair? Dark hair? A: Very dark hair, dark, very dark eyes, uh, Q: Complexion? A: Had the dark Latin complexion, wore a beard a lot of the time. Variations of Q: Like mine? A: Sometimes he would have a little beard. Sometimes he would have a Van Dyke, sometimes he had a mustache, lot of times he was clean shaven. Q: Sort of like Loren Hall? A: He was very, he, actually he was very, very unassuming guy. I mean actually, no more than Bosch. You know Bosch, you look at Bosch and know he looks like a professional man. Which he is. You know, and he looked like it and you would never, ever think that he was what he was. It was the same way with, the same way with Seraphin. Very few of those guys, we had some of them up there that really looked, they really looked what they are. What they were. But, he was very, very, very unassuming. Low key. Very quiet. Q: Did he have a heavy accent? A: No, not really a heavy accent. I mean, he didn't have any trouble, he didn't have any trouble articulating. You know, and his accent, his accent wasn't like the traditional ones that you see, you know, that is Spanish from Puerto Rico. Because he, it was, he was more like a high class you know, more cultured. Q: Castillian? A: Yeah, more cultured type of tone. But, Q: When was probably the next time you ran into him after November 63? Was it a long time? A: Oh no, I didn't see him, I didn't see him until we went down to see him in, in uh, went down to see him in 75. Q: So it was, so it was that long before. A: No, I didn't, I had no contact, I had no contact with him. I forget what he was telling, he was going around and, somebody said that, oh, this information, this information came from, this information came from Serapin. So we went down to ….. Q: Check it out? A: To talk to him and ask him if, hey, you know, you, you know, if you got any of a loose mouth, you know. What we want to find out about it, see, then, of course, a few days later he got killed. And, we, they never Q: They tried to blame you all? A: Yeah. But, well, they found out we was there but that was about all. There wasn't really any way to really connect us up with it you know, we just happened to be there. We just were down there ostensibly on vacation at the Caribel. Q: Another guy kind of like him is this Bayard guy. What can you tell us about him? A: You mean Robert Bayard? Q: Yeah. A: Well, Bayard was a, he was a gun runner like you know, sold all kinds of weapons. Q: Was he American? A: Oh yeah, he was a Texan. Q: Oh, OK. So, A: He was, well he was like Vick Stadder or you know, he knew all those guys. Vick Stadder, Cottondale, probably knew Masen, sold all kinds of weapons. Q: Is that what he was doing say in 63? Was he still doing a lot of guns? A: Oh, yeah. Q: Who would somebody like that be running guns to and from? Around 63? A: Most of them to you know, most of them, that was the, you know, the Cuban groups. They were about the only ones that were in the business of buying guns. I mean, same way as like you know Reynolds, he probably sold guns to Reynolds too. Reynolds had a big, he had a big facility down there. Q: What was Bayard's description? Do you have any photos of him, do you? Q: Yeah. Q: How does he, what does he look like? Do you remember? A: Well, Q: I know it has been a long time. A: Well, yeah, you know he looks like, he was a typical, he looked like a typical American, you know. Uh, he looks like, maybe like a little younger version of McKeown, one of those guys. But, nothing about his appearance you know that makes him stand out. Q: You knew Thomas Masen? A: John. Well I didn't know him, we sent a lot of stuff over to him back and forth. Q: You had never seen him? A: No. So we sent a lot of stuff back and forth to him. We got a lot of ammunition from him. We did a lot of reloading. We did a lot of reloading. Q: Did you ever meet him in person? Mason? A: No. Q: Over what period of time did you sent him and currently do, have dealings with him, during the 61, 62, 63, 64? A: Up until, well we didn't have any dealings with him, we didn't have any dealings with him after probably uh, maybe, 64, 65 something like that. Q: How did you find out he was partners with Harrelson? A: We had heard he was partners with him. Q: So that was just kind of the rumor mill? A: Yeah. Q: That they were in it together? A: He's partners with Harrelson. I would swear to that. Q: In November, November 3rd, where the unregistered license in --, ammunition, John Thomas Masen had went to prison, November of 1963. Q: He was at the county jail, I mean the city jail when Oswald came in. Q: That is right. Q: Oh absolutely. Q: Oh yeah he went to prison. A: How long was he in? Do you know? Q: A couple of three years, wasn't he? A: Federal rap? Q: Probably Federal. A: Was it a ATF deal? Q: Another one of these guys A: Did they have, excuse me, good solid evidence against him? Q: Yeah. Q: For unregistered ammunition, that is what they got him on. Q: I think they got him once for selling an automatic, wasn't it? Q: Yeah. But not, it was November A: I thought he was a Class 3 dealer. Q: Maybe it was who he sold it to. A: Oh, maybe that is right. When he was killed. Q: When Bayard was killed? A: He was killed Q: He was shot July 3rd. Q: It was in 75 also when Seraphin was killed, right? A: He was killed in October. Q: OK. A: Bayard was killed in July. Q: OK. A: Hoffa was killed in July. Q: Where was Bayard killed? Do you know? A: Atlanta. Q: Oh, that is right, that was the A: I was with …… Q: That was on Oak and A: We got covered up, I remember that. Flew him over there. Q: I will look bad in front of the microphone, when I get back. Q: Now on Eschavarria, cause that is who we are particularly interested in. Gary, how would you describe him physically? If you had to give a description of him? A: Well, he didn't look as, he didn't look as Latin as, well Montoya didn't exactly look Latin, I mean Montoya looked like, he looked like he might have been some other extraction. It was hard to say from his accent, course he might have been. But he didn't look, Eschavarria, didn't look as, he didn't look as …….. Q: Can you pronounce that, cause I always mis-pronounce it? A: Eschavarria, Etchabaria, Homer Etchabaria. Uh, he didn't look, he wasn't as Latin as he actually -- What the hell was the name of the lawyer that moved down from, came down from Chicago, Paulino? Q: Sierra? A: Yeah Sierra. He was a, he knew him very well. And he was in part of his program and he had,at one time, had some kind of an obscure job with United Car Company, something like that, and he was trying to, get away, I think from the traditional Cuban image. He was trying to improve his, trying to improve his image, you know, and he spoke quite ….. Q: He was more Anglo? A: Yeah, right. He was a, he would like to appear, cause he sort of looked like a, he looked more like an Anglo. Q: Again, do you remember like height, weight? A: No. Q: Any kind of appearance? A: No, nothing unusual. Except, I would say he was bigger than, I started to say bigger than most Cubans. But some of them were pretty big. Uh, he was probably he is taller than I am. He is probably 5'7", something like that. Q: So he was like taller than Montoya maybe? A: Yeah. No, he wasn't taller than Montoya. Montoya, was uh, Montoya was a little bit taller than I am. Q: So you think maybe about the same height? A: Yeah. About the same height. You know 170 lbs. probably, you know. Q: Dark hair? A: Oh yeah, dark, dark hair. Q: I always have to ask that because I see that picture of Dee Aslantans. A: Yeah. No, dark hair, not Hispanic, not too dark, not too dark a complexion. Like he had a little, sight mixture of Caucasian and Cuban. But nothing that made him stand out except he wore dark glasses, which ….. Q: That is unusual. A: Yeah, he wore glasses. And, I don't think, well Bayard wore glasses too. Q: Like in Dallas that day were either of them wearing glasses that day, do you remember? A: Yeah, they both were wearing glasses. I think they wore glasses all the time. Q: When you are like me you have to. A: I did too. But most of the time. Q: Let me ask you some other things. These are other things that are like mentioned in the manuscript, just want to get a little more detail on them. Did you ever meet E. Howard Hunt, or just know him by reputation? A: Oh yeah, I met him, you know, but I mean I met him back there quite a ways back. When he was involved in the Bay of Pigs before he got, well he got into, he got into a hassle with, with uh, someone else, I forget who it was. Somebody higher, somebody ….. Q: Yeah there was a big flack. A: There was a big flap and they brought in a guy by the name of, I think his name was Engineer, I remember. Cause he talked that xxxx quite a bit. I think his name was Will Carr, I believe it is and he, now this guy came in and he really spoke, he really spoke very, very you know fluent Spanish. I mean, he spoke Spanish like a native. Q: Now was this the guy who kind of replaced Hunt, or not? A: Yeah he replaced Hunt in the Bay of Pigs. Q: When did you first meet Hunt? A: But the, he of course I don't think he was, I don't remember him being down in, I don't remember seeing him in Guatemala in 54. Probably when they were getting ready for the, probably when they were getting ready for the Bay of Pigs. And he was in and out of,he was in and out of Miami all that time before they took those guys and took them down to, you know, right to the, they were staying in Opelika at that time and they had a barracks up down there. And they …….. Q: How would you kind of run into him? Where would you see him? A: He would go, he was very, very close to the, he was very, very close to the Cubans you know. And uh, he was using that, he was using a name uh, Q: Eduardo. A: Eduardo, yeah, they called him, the, he was Eduardo. And they were always talking about him always talking about Edwardo. You know, and so, I didn't know, I didn't realize probably until a few months later that his name was really E. Howard Hunt. You know, Everett Howard Hunt. Q: Some people didn't realize it until 70. A: So I didn't really know that, I didn't really know that that was what his name was. You know, but, I, we found out that, you know, that that was what it was where they had this flack on with Carr and somebody mentioned that you know, they said hey, there is you know, the guy who is, I don't know whether it was, I don't know whether it was Tracy Barnes that couldn't get along with him. Or, maybe it was Bissell himself. Q: Did you run into Hunt after the Bay of Pigs? Do you remember? A: I remember -- to the Bay of Pigs. Uh, I don't know whether he came out, I don't know whether he was, I don't think he went out to California or not when he came out there to, they came out to Dr. Fielding's office. And, Gordon Liddy was out there though and Eugeno Martinez was out there. And somebody else. Somebody came in and said he was a detective and came in and said he was from Technical Services Division and needs photographic work done. And some processing and we had a really good processing film, but I am not sure what or not that, what connections, what kind. I certainly didn't have any close connection. Q: Cause I was going to ask you if you had heard from that Martinez, Sturgis? A: Yeah. Well, yeah Sturgis, I sort of met him. But there again, I really never had anything to do with Sturgis, or Martinez either, because although I mean he was a legend down there and was going back and forth to Havana all the time. You know, and Bernard Barker, oh yeah, he was another one that was out there in California. Q: Yeah. A: I didn't, I never knew him either. Q: How about Perry Williams or Artime? A: No. Q: Manuel Ortega? A: No, you mean the golden boy? Q: Yep. A: Well, you know the problem is, I really think I think I really knew him at one time because uh, he was partners or somebody he knew. He was partners with Bebe Rebozo in a meat processing plant or something there in Miami. And when I saw pictures later of him, you know, and it just seemed like that that was that. But I don't really know one way or the other or not. Q: I know we have talked about some of these people like Christian Dobeed and those people, did you ever know any of those guys? Who were you know involved in that French connection? Kind of? Drug smuggling thing? Some of that went up like through Montreal, like Sarti you know these names better than I would. Belard, any of those guys? A: Except the one we, that we learned through, when we got the official, when the examined, they did the study in Atlanta, why all those guys were dying. Q: Thats, did you reach him there? A: See, what happened is so, the guy came in one day, he came in the office there in at the hospital and said hey I got, I really got something for you here. And, the point is that he has got this, for your eyes only, for the Wardens eyes only, study of, for the FBI, study of why eleven people were killed in five days in Atlanta. See, I still have got the report. You will find that fascinating reading. Q: That would be interesting. A: Because they got diagrams of the thing and how, boy the way they use, this guy was chocked to death. This guy, got him with a hatchet. This guy was burned to death. And they were all, they never used the same method. Well but one I really, that really thought was how they did, how they killed Orceede. Dominick Orcede. Uh, they said that he was part of the, he was in the witness protection program, but, the prison authorities at Atlanta had not been advised, and so they didn't stick him. They put him out in the population. Well they killed him. Vincent Poppa, they killed him the same day. But some of them they found out who they were. I mean, what happened, some of them were out and out contracts, that was left there in the institution and they -- The only thing that he would shrink from. Anything else he didn't. Q: He would do? A: He would do anything at all and liked doing it. I mean he made, he made a fortune in real estate and didn't mean a thing to him. I mean, you could talk to him, he would make a, he would sell some property, make money, -- but you mention a scam to him. I don't care if it was you know, minor or not, and his eyes would light up. He, I think he, I think he really, I think that is what kept him alive. He would complain to me, the press was bothering, the press was harassing me but, I am nothing but a bootlegger. I haven't done nothing in my life, you know, they were running around with a suitcase full of stolen securities, you know, we are trying to sell. Q: Speaking with Lemay too, how did he feel about Robert Kennedy's crack down on organized crime? Was he as much of a target? Did he like, I would assume he would be kind of pissed off. A: Well he was. And, of course, he was, he you know, he thought he was grandstanding and he said that you know he had often commented about the fact that, hell Joe Kennedy made his fortune you know, in doing that and he had all these bootlegging friends and everything, why should they treat me any different than say the Rosenfields or the Bonthans? I mean, we were all in the same business at that time. And, of course, he simply detested Kennedy. Q: Bobby? A: Bobby Q: Bobby more than John? A: Yeah. Either one of them and he said oh they are grandstanding and this and that and the other. Trying to make hay out of us and he would say of course, hey look, they are harassing us. See, he would say that. They were harassing him. Q: What do you think, just personally think, about all the theories that organized crime was basically behind Kennedy's assignation? A: Well, Q: Or did you ever hear any of the talk in those kind of terms? A: Well, they certainly, they were interested in -- In that they wasn't the type of -- I think, my own personal opinion, is they would have done it -- Between all of the intelligence agencies and organized crime. And disorganized crime, criminals of all stripes, they went very, very deep. And they scratched each others backs. But you will find, you will never find a Mafia hit like the Kennedy assignation. They do not hit that way. I mean, they, they they do not. It is just like the example of how they killed Albert Anastasia. OK. They go up behind Albert Anastasis, they shot him eleven times. Or shoot eleven times. Standing right behind him. Five shots miss, and of the other shots, only the final shot, is fatal. The Mafia, none of those Mafia killers, are really, really skilled like snipers and that sort of thing. They can't depend on that. They depend on up close and personal. They depend on bombs and so forth. And, but any other reason I would say hey, the organized crime per se, didn't do it, but, they did, they would say they might, they might utilize someone else you know. Now Harrelson, of course, he shot Wood, he shot him with a rifle. Didn't he? Q: Uh, huh. A: How far away was he? Do you know? Q: Was he close? A: Fairly close. Q: I would, he was, it sticks in my mind he was close enough that it was an easy rifle shot. A: What was he doing? Getting in his car or something? Q: Yeah, getting in his car. Q: Seems to me, like he wasn't over 75 yards. A: Yeah, well, that’s point blank. Q: That is point blank. A: Yeah, with a rifle. So, I would, if I tell you this, if somebody like, I will comment on the person I knew best, that was Licabaldi. Licabaldi was typical of those guys that had, that had, was involved in three of the most sensational murders in the twentieth century. He was a principal, he had planned, he had planned, he had probably been responsible for killing 100 people. Q: Are you stating it? A: I am talking about the murder of Jerry Buckley, in Detroit, the crusading radio commentator, who played both sides of the street, you know, just like Jake Lingle did in Chicago. He was friends, he took money and then decided he would turn on them. The second one was the killing of the beer baron of Toledo, who's name was Jackie Kennedy, he shot him. Killed him and his four body guards, that is what Yonnie Licavoli, his brother, went to prison for. And of course, the third and the most famous was the St. Valentines Day Massacre, you know, because they were the ones that, it was because of them, you know, it was their trucks that Buggs Moran -- Told that there was going to be a incident created and it was going to be in Miami. Then we it was the thing changed, and they -- got to be changed and either got to be in San Antonio or Houston, or Dallas, or some place like that. These people but they never, ever -- Creates some problems for these, for -- And after that, there won't be any more romancing between Kennedy and Castro. I never heard the word. Q: Who is they? A: Well it came, who, the guy was talking about that, was Q: Who was telling you? A: Philip Twombly was telling us. Also, things came from Francis Sherry -- Ex-CIA guy that was down in, was down in Mexico. And, we were hearing from, we heard it from a lot of different sources. We heard from Lee Echols, there was a Q: Who was Lee Echols? A: Lee Echols was an ex-CIA guy that was living in San Diego at that time. I don't think Q: -- (can't hear) we had something very similar right here, it was planned just before the Kennedy visit here, we have got some police department memos, where the, they were planning, where General Walker, wasn't he the -- and his group were planning to create an incident and blame it, make it appear and it was Les Winters doing it. And we have got it right out here, on police memos. Q: Police memos. A: Well that was essentially Q: It was like Echols and Twomley and Sheridan. A: Echols, Twombly, as a matter of fact, I don't think, whoever, Echols was the guy that said hey, that we are getting, we are getting this stuff from, comes right down from Desmond Fitzgerald who is the, who is now the, is chief of the Cuban desk at Langley. Now, Desmond Fitzgerald, had come back from the Far East, he had been the, he had been chief of station, I mean division chief of the far east division, which is a plum, I mean boy, I mean, you want, that is what yo want to be. Coming back to take over the Cuban desk, at Langley, in my opinion, and everybody else I talked to, was like almost like a demotion for him. And they were saying that, I never, I couldn't , I couldn't swear I have said, I have said in the book, and it is my own personal opinion, I have said in the book that Desmond Fitzgerald, Gordon Meyer, were responsible for somebody high up in the CIA, had to know, it wasn't some rogue agents, some rogue agents, they wouldn't really take this on their own, I don't believe that they would. I don't think they could, I don't believe they could at all. Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. So, there is a hell of a lot in there that is supposition from what people are telling me, what they were telling us and what people who are now most, a lot of people are now dead. Cord Meyer I think is still alive. Course naturally he would swear up and down this is blasphemy. I mean, this is, this is taking a man with an honorable, long career, you know, and black balling him. And if you were wrong about it, you would sure hate, you would sure as hell hate to do it. Q: That is why I wanted to find out from you, cause I wanted to distinguish here what people had told you or what you had tried to figure out for yourself? And just try to get a good feel for that? A: A lot of it is you know, a lot of it is what people say, comes to piecemeal, it is just like, it is just like when Twombly says we will, he says to you, hey look I giving you this money to do this. Now you are going to be contacted by somebody and this guy is Ok, his name is so and so, he is coming to get this. Now, make this guy up, you know, give this guy identification, do this, do that, or now we want you to forge, we want you to forge some money. Not American money. Although we did have the plates. Q: I will turn off the recorder. A: No, no, no. Q: I will bet Cuban money though, right? A: Yeah, Cuban money, Chilean money. Q: I meant to ask you, when you all were in, you know, from like Arizona to Dallas, and back, I think do you have anybody you were supposed to contact if you had a big problem or anything like that? A: Not anybody locally no. Q: I mean nationally? A: Oh, well, we always had, we would, we always had like for instance, Twombly. We would call Twombly. Twombly, of course, you know, he owned a bank. I mean, he could, there was no doubt that if you had any kind of problem that money would solve, you could …….. Q: He could do it. Q: Is he still alive? A: I don't know. He asked me the same thing. Probably is. I will find out as soon as I get back. He had a big ranch in Fullerton and so I have a feeling. I know he, I know he was alive up in the 1980's. And he really wasn't that old, although he had been around a long time, and he had been a vice president, executive vice president of Coca-Cola, he was an executive vice president of Coca-Cola when he was 29 years old. You know in charge of Caribbean operations and so, he probably, chances are, he is probably still alive. But he would only be three years older than I am, you know. So he is probably, a lot of those guys from Bank America area still, those guys from Bank of America who also were alive are still alive, had matter of fact, they, one of their names came up the other day, because they helped form BCCI. Q: Yeah. Q: It all comes around. A: So they had that, so a lot of those guys, I don't know whether they are alive or not, because I never had any reason, I never had any reason to contact them or anything. But, when I go back, I will try to find them. I promised Gary that I would try to get everybody that I can think of, that will be able to tell him something about me. Some of them may say, hey wait a minute. Including, I have to mention, I will get the attorney, the attorneys that you know I had talked to, they represented me at various stages, one of whom is now the commissioner of insurance for the state of California. Uh, the judge who sentenced me, who saw the, who saw and read the CIA file. And as you remember, you, when you talked to Sue, you remember she told you what happened with that, they came down there with two big, thick files, I mean they were thick and let one guy read one sentence out of there, all it said was that Chauncey Holt, Kearney Siegler, John R Moon, William Dean Rutz, right down the line, are not now and never have been employees of the Central Intelligence Agency. That is all they said. And ofcourse, that, so they left them read that in, and they wouldn't let the, wouldn't let my attorney cross examine him, or do anything. He just got up, the agents gots up and read this into the record. What they do -- (End of Tape)

Duncan, great picture. No need to say more. Wim

(4) David Corn, Blond Ghost: Ted Shackley and the CIA's Crusades (1994) On a winter's day, Shackley drove to Capitol Hill for unpleasant business. In Church's office, Levinson and Blum were amused to meet this man. Levinson had heard from his CIA contacts that some spooks referred to the blond fellow sitting across from him as the "Butcher of Laos." He looked more like an uptight businessman-tough, but no secret agent. He was stiff, no-nonsense all the way. He made no small talk. He was there to discuss the ground rules for what would be a historic occasion: the public testimony of a CIA officer. From: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhecksher.htm Shackley was called The Butcher? How known is that? Only in inner circles or widely? Wim

"They" didn't. This demolishes the Zapruder film? This is soooo typical Jack White. Presenting his observations as facts, and then drawing conclusions from it. Maybe we should be a bit more critical: A - If an officer and motorcycle to begin with, how is this officer Chaney? B - How is this officer Ellis, if anyone? I don't see an officer talking to anyone, and certainly not Curry. C - Chief Curry in the stopped lead car? Gee, Jack can see everyone and everything in blobs of light and shadows. JFK's car is that blob under the triple underpass? Sure? So an officer would already have parked his bike at the side of the street and stepped off it in the time between the last headshot and JFK's car speeding away under the underpass???? Key question: What was the reason for all this tricking and faking that Jack sees? And if they faked so many films, why did they overlook Wiegman? Wim

Thank you for that. I suggest all members watch this 5 part video. Yes, it make you mad to realize what the bastards did to good men like him. I suggest to give Roger Craig posthumely the "David Atlee Phillips award". That would be a laugh. I don't know who he is , but all the stuff of that user is good. http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=10G...bozia01&p=r Maybe you could send him an invitation. Does Bernice have a clearer copy of that photo? With some less harsh contrast maybe? What is the Marsh collection? Is this Anthony Marsh? When did this picture exactly come available? Little doubt in my mind we're talking about this man: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmorales.htm

Tony, There's a rule of thumb for this case: The most credible evidence is discredited the most. And people behave like sheep in a herd. Keep that in mind while researching this case. I'll give you a funny example. When I discovered that David Mantik (great researcher and scientist by the way) had published an article, wherein he said that the X-rays of JFK's skull could well show a cloud of mercury particles, I called him and I asked him if he ever heard of the James Files story? He said yes, but he never looked into it, "because fellow researachers advised me to stay clear of it". I then asked him if he knew that Files claims to have shot a mercury round. He said no. And he added "I will look at the Files story now". Wim

Searh for "Two men In Dallas" on Youtube or Google video. Great stuff! Wim

Tony, Why is James Files "a sore subject here"? Malcolm Summers is dead, he died about two years ago if I am not mistaken, I spoke to him shortly before he died about the man with strange gun he claimed to have seen. But I can assure that Summers, if he was credible, did not see the getaway of Files , Nicoletti and Roselli, as Summers claimed this was 15-20 minutes after the assassination (unless his deposition was changed too). Files , Nicoletti and Roselli drove away within two minutes after the final shots. In terms of the "working car" that Jimmy described, this is more interesting: http://www.ganglandnews.com/column80.htm ASK ANDY This week, Andy, seen in this familiar pose - apparantly too familiar to one Gang Land reader who's been bugging us for a new shot of our organized crime expert - reading one of his all time favorite books, "Mob Star," answers a query from reader Chip Regalmuto about old time Chicago gangster - Charles Nicoletti. Charles (Chuckie) Nicoletti was one of the Chicago Outfit's top triggerman during the 1950's and early 1960's. Nicoletti was involved in as many as 20 mob hits during his days as a Chicago soldier, according to Bill Roemer, the late FBI agent and author. Born in 1916, Chuckie had a tumultuous childhood and quit school after eight grade. Nicoletti started training for his life's career rather early. In 1929, Nicoletti killed his father in what was eventually ruled a justifiable homicide. He quickly moved into the orbit of the Chicago Outfit - joining the "42 Gang," a teenage street gang that was a farm team for the mob. The 42 Gang included three future Chicago mob bosses, Sam Giancana, Sam Battaglia and Phil Alderisio. After they had all moved up to the big leagues of Chicago crime, Nicoletti's clout was greatly enhanced. By the late 1950's, Nicoletti had a feared reputation as a hitman and was one of the usual suspects brought in for questioning whenever cops thought they had a gangland-style-slaying on their hands. In 1962, he was arrested while driving a so-called "work" car, specially equipped with hidden compartments for guns, rear lights that turned off, a souped up engine, special reinforcement on both sides, bullet proof glass and a rotating rear license plate. It was no surprise the next day when a mob associate was found slain near where Nicoletti had been detained. Around this time, Nicoletti agreed to meet with Agent Roemer, who was trying to develop informants. Despite a long cat-and-mouse discussion in which Nicoletti disclosed that he showed legitimate income by claiming to work for various car dealerships, Roemer failed to turn the gangster. In the mid-1960's however, Nicoletti's luck began to sour. In 1965, Giancana was jailed for contempt of court for refusing to testify before a grand jury. When he was released the next year, mob powerhouse Tony Accardo officially dethroned Giancana and Nicoletti's stature began to decline, even though Battaglia and Alderisio had two-year-runs at the top. GiancannaBy 1975, Giancana (left) was ailing, and he was killed in an insurance play by the leaders of the Outfit. They didn't fear a Giancana comeback but were concerned that his ill health might make him susceptible to increasing federal pressure. If Giancana talked, the entire Outfit hierarchy could go down. Nicoletti was not happy about his friend's killing and foolishly voiced his displeasure several times. His inability to stifle himself proved to be a fatal mistake. On March 29, 1977, Nicoletti took three .38 caliber slugs behind the ear as he sat in the front seat of his car. At first, the mob floated a story that Nicoletti had been killed in a revenge slaying for his hit on a Milwaukee mob leader. This was just smoke and mirrors. The Outfit had silenced an unhappy employee who could prove to be dangerous either with his gun or his mouth.

I still would like to have an answer on the issue below. Maybe Lamar Waldron or Thom Hartmann could jump in? Wim Another interview with Chauncey Holt This is only a part of transcript I found on the Internet in february 2005. It is full of transcript spelling errors by the way. A rather strange thing happened. When I found the email address of the interviewer Thom Hartmann, I asked him: Hello Thom, did you do this interview with Chauncey Holt? http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/HOLT.TXT If so, can you provide me with the first part? Wim Dankbaar I got the following reply: Wim, How do I get in touch with the person who posted this? Thom So I answered that it was probably Ken Rahn or Anthony Marsh, and I gave him their website addresses. The interview appears to be gone from the web now. You can try the link. Wim I never got an answer to the email below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Wim Dankbaar To: thom@thomhartmann.com Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Hello Thom, did you do this interview with Chauncey Holt? Why were you so concerned about this interview on the web? And why is it gone now? Wim

Yes, late afternoon, judging from the shadows. What is really remarkable is that the place was not fenced off as a crimescene. For crying out loud , we are talking about the murder of a President. It's still a wonder that Billy Harper found that bone fragment the next day. Wim

This the same logic as used hereunder: Many witnesses recall the car came to a full stop. No film (Zapruder, Muchmore, Nix, Hughes) shows the car come to a stop. THEREFORE THE FILMS AND PHOTOS ARE NECESSARILY FORGED! Sounds familiar? In effect I am asked to accept that some eyewitnesses are more reliable than 4 films. Wim

Yes, but he said it was a lie, for a valid reason (= he didn't want to tell the truth without immunity). It was also obvious that it was a lie. He doesn't show up in any of the known pictures of that area. Moreover, you suggested that I said he lied about where he hit JFK. That is why I said that I certainly did not say that. Wim

Bernice, he says "some day", not Sunday: Q: I have a picture of you standing behind the fence, will you autograph it for me someday? A: Someday...but not now. And the Daltex has a parking lot, but maybe not according to your definition: J – The School Book Depository is over here and the Daltex building is over here! JF – Yeah, right! J – Ah .. Did you park on that street? JF – I parked on the street right next to it, yeah. J – Was it head-in parking, or was it a parking lot, or was it straight JF – Well, what you want to call it. A parking space, parking lot. Aah .. parking aisle, whatever you want to call it. Cars were parked there. W – A row of cars? JF – Rail of cars, row of cars. I backed it in there and parked it so he (Nicoletti) could have access to the trunk. J – So the back end to your … the front end to the road ? JF – Yeah, Well, front end pointing forward. J – Yeah, forward towards the road. I’m getting ahead here, but when you left you turned right? JF – When I came out of there, I made a right hand turn. Bernice, can you do better pointing out where Files lies? I'm always interested. Wim

Wim, I can't follow this logic at all. I realize that he said something else in 2003, but if he'd want his story believed, of course, he'd have to do some backpedaling. How is that left/right thing "a mistake only the real grassy knoll gunman could've made?" I find you having to apologize for what he says--you say he lies--how do you know when he is telling you the truth? I am sorry you can't follow the logic. I will try again: If I look at you your right eye is on the left side for me. So it's logical for me to make that "mistake". It depends what is right or left from whose position. Therefore it is logical for the real grassy knoll assassin to make that "mistake" as well. And of course it not a real mistake, it's just how the human mind works, especially considering the fact that the grassy knoll was on Kennedy's right side, you cannot even hit him from there on the left side. By the way , if you want to do some backpedaling, you will notice that he ALSO explained this in the 1994 interview, I made it bold and red for you in the quote below. Hence, he didn't say something else back then and I certainly did not say he lies.

Miles, I am not the one who has said that Files took the first shot ... it is just one of the many ever changing stories I have heard that has been attributed to Files. My opinion is that Files never fired any shots, nor was he even in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. Bill Miller I am not the one who has said that Files took the first shot ... No one ever said that Files took the first shot. No one ever said that Files ever said that he took the first shot. Files has always said that he did not take the first shot. Everyone has always said that Files did not take the first shot. it is just one of the many ever changing stories There has never been a story that Files took the first shot. I have heard that has been attributed to Files. Cite your source & do not make up an apocryphal, non-existent source, please. You do not have a source. My opinion is that Files never fired any shots, nor was he even in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. But you have asserted that you have heard a story that no one ever told, a story that never existed, a story you have no source for. What is your opinion worth, that being the case? The very FIRST thing one learns from the earliest & most rudimentary acquaintance with Files' confession is that he claims to have fired the Z-313 shot & that shot alone, firing only once. Files says that he counted shots before firing his one shot. Are you making up this alleged story that you heard this alleged story of Files firing the first shot? Because you do not want it to be known that you have not studied the Files case, at all? No? Then, cite your source. Miles, You're great, especially for not divulging any stuff I shared with you confidentially. I know that must be hard Wim PS: Indeed Files never said he fired the first shot. He doesn't know how many shots were fired, and his shot would probably have been the last shot, unless another shooter made one more miss. Oh man , these conversations are so boring and tiring. Why can't "JFK researchers" do some research before they talk?

Dear Kathy, Did Files not say he was the grassy knoll shooter? Then you would expect him to know that he was shooting at JFK from the right side, right? Indeed he said in in 1994, he hit JFK in the left side of his head. A mistake of a conman, that has read into the JFK assassination? Or a mistake that only the real grassy knoll gunman could have made? From the interview with James Files 2003: J - where were you aiming? JF - Oh, I was aiming for his right eye, which to me is the left side of his head looking head on. But for him it would be his right eye, and when I pulled the trigger, and I'm right in on it, and it's almost like looking 6 feet away through the scope. As I squeezed, take off my round, his head moved forward, I missed and I come in right along the temple. Just right behind the eye.