Bernice Moore

Don: Here is one other, the third is too big, to post....so will send by email. B

""Do you, or anyone else, have any photo(s) captured from the TOP north sewer, looking east-north-east across the grassy knoll, towards President KENNEDY's Zf-313 Elm Street location point?"" Hi Don: These may be of interest... B..

Donald Wayne House and Kenneth Wilson... Anytime Dixie... b

""The Lansdale story is endless. What people do not do is study the entire environment of his strange career. For example: the most important part of my book, "The Secret Team", is not something that I wrote. It is Appendix III under the title, "Training Under The Mutual Security Program". This is a most important bit of material. It tells more about the period 1963 to 1990 than anything. I fought to have it included verbatim in the book. This material was the work of Lansdale and his crony General Dick Stillwell. Anyone interested in the "JFK Coup d'Etat" ought to know it by heart. "" ********************** Letter to Jim Garrison from Colonel Prouty: March 6, 1990 Dear Jim, It is amazing how things work, I am at home recuperating from a major back operation (to regain my ability to walk); so I was tossing around in bed last night...not too comfortable...and I began to think of Garrison. I thought, "I have got to write Jim a letter detailing how I believe the whole job was done." By another coincidence I had received a fine set of twenty photos from the Sprague collection in Springfield, Mass. As the odds would have it, he is now living just around the corner here in Alexandria. Why not? Lansdale lived here, Fensterwald lives here, Ford used to live here. Quite a community. I was studying those photos. One of them is the "Tramps" picture that appears in your book. It is glossy and clear. Lansdale is so clearly identifiable. Why, Lansdale in Dallas? The others don't matter, they are nothing but actors and not gunmen but they are interesting. Others who knew Lansdale as well as I did, have said the same thing, "That's him and what's he doing there?" As I was reading the paper the Federal Express man came with a book from Jim, that unusual "Lansdale" book. A terrible biography. There could be a great biography about Lansdale. He's no angel; but he is worth a good biography. Currey, a paid hack, did the job. His employers ought to have let him do it right. I had known Ed since 1952 in the Philippines. I used to fly there regularly with my MATS Heavy Transport Squadron. As a matter of fact, in those days we used to fly wounded men, who were recuperating, from hospitals in Japan to Saigon for R&R on the beaches of Cap St Jacque. That was 1952-1953. Saigon was the Paris of the Orient. And Lansdale was "King Maker" of the Philippines. We always went by way of Manila. I met his team. He had arrived in Manila in Sept 1945, after the war was over, for a while. He had been sent back there in 1950 by the CIA(OPC) to create a new leader of the Philippines and to get rid of Querino. Sort of like the Marcos deal, or the Noriega operation. Lansdale did it better. I have overthrown a government but I didn't splash it all around like Reagan and Bush have done. Now, who sent him there? Who sent him there in 1950 (Truman era) to do a job that was not done until 1953 (Ike era)? From 1950 to Feb. 1953 the Director of Central Intelligence was Eisenhower's old Chief of Staff, Gen Walter Bedell Smith. Smith had been Ambassador to Moscow from 1946 to 1949. The lesser guys in the CIA at the time were Allen Dulles, who was Deputy Director Central Intelligence from Aug. 1951 to Feb. 1953. Frank Wisner became the Deputy Director, Plans (Clandestine Activities) when Dulles became DDCI. Lansdale had to have received his orders from among these four men: Truman, Smith, Dulles, and Wisner. Of course the Sec State could have had some input...i.e. Acheson. Who wanted Querino out, that badly? Who wanted HUKS there? In Jan 1953 Eisenhower arrived. John Foster Dulles was at State and Gen Smith his Deputy. Allen Dulles was the DCI and General Cabel his deputy. None of them changed Lansdale's prior orders to "get" Querino. Lansdale operated with abandon in the Philippines. The Ambassador and the CIA Station Chief, George Aurell, did not know what he was doing. They believed he was some sort of kook Air Force Officer there...a role Lansdale played to the hilt. Magsaysay became President, Dec 30, 1953. With all of this on the record, and a lot more, this guy Currey comes out of the blue with this purported "Biography". I knew Ed well enough and long enough to know that he was a classic chameleon. He would tell the truth sparingly and he would fabricate a lot. Still, I can not believe that he told Currey the things Currey writes. Why would Lansdale want Currey to perpetuate such out and out bullxxxx about him? Can't be. This is a terribly fabricated book. It's not even true about me. I believe that this book was ordered and delineated by the CIA. At least I know the truth about myself and about Gen. Krulak. Currey libels us terribly. In fact it may be Krulak who caused the book to be taken off the shelves. Krulak and his Copley Press cohorts have the power to get that done, and I encouraged them to do just that when it first came out. Krulak was mad! Ed told me many a time how he operated in the Philippines. He said, "All I had was a blank checkbook signed by the U.S. government". He made friends with many influential Filipinos. I have met Johnny Orendain and Col Valeriano, among others, in Manila with Lansdale. He became acquainted with the wealthiest Filipino of them all, Soriano. Currey never even mentions him. Soriano set up Philippine Airlines and owned the big San Miguel beer company, among other things. Key man in Asia. Lansdale's greatest strategy was to create the "HUKS" as the enemy and to make Magsaysay the "Huk Killer." He would take Magsaysay's battalion out into a "Huk" infested area. He would use movies and "battlefield" sound systems, i.e. fireworks to scare the poor natives. Then one-half of Magsaysay's battalion, dressed as natives, would "attack" the village at night. They'd fire into the air and burn some shacks. In the morning the other half, in uniform, would attack and "capture" the "Huks". They would bind them up in front of the natives who crept back from the forests, and even have a "firing" squad "kill" some of them. Then they would have Magsaysay make a big speech to the people and the whole battalion would roll down the road to have breakfast together somewhere...ready for the next "show". Ed would always see that someone had arranged to have newsmen and camera men there and Magsaysay soon became a national hero. This was a tough game and Ed bragged that a lot of people were killed; but in the end Magsaysay became the "elected" President and Querino was ousted "legally." This formula endeared Ed to Allen Dulles. In 1954 Dulles established the Saigon Military Mission in Vietnam...counter to Eisenhower's orders. He had the French accept Lansdale as its chief. This mission was not in Saigon. It was not military, and its job was subversion in Vietnam. Its biggest job was that it got more than 1,100,000 northern Vietnamese to move south. 660,000 by U.S.Navy ships and the rest by CIA airline planes. These 1,100,000 north Vietnamese became the "subversive" element in South Vietnam and the principal cause of the warmaking. Lansdale and his cronies (Bohanon, Arundel, Phillips, Hand, Conein and many others) did all that using the same check book. I was with them many times during 1954. All Malthuseanism. I have heard him brag about capturing random Vietnamese and putting them in a Helicopter. Then they would work on them to make them "confess" to being Viet Minh. When they would not, they would toss them out of the chopper, one after the other, until the last ones talked. This was Ed's idea of fun...as related to me many times. Then Dulles, Adm. Radford and Cardinal Spellman set up Ngo Dinh Diem. He and his brother, Nhu, became Lansdale proteges. At about 1957 Lansdale was brought back to Washington and assigned to Air Force Headquarters in a Plans office near mine. He was a fish out of water. He didn't know Air Force people and Air Force ways. After about six months of that, Dulles got the Office of Special Operations under General Erskine to ask for Lansdale to work for the Secretary of Defense. Erskine was man enough to control him. By 1960 Erskine had me head the Air Force shop there. He had an Army shop and a Navy shop and we were responsible for all CIA relationships as well as for the National Security Agency. Ed was still out of his element because he did not know the services; but the CIA sent work his way. Then in the Fall of 1960 something happened that fired him up. Kennedy was elected over Nixon. Right away Lansdale figured out what he was going to do with the new President. Overnight he left for Saigon to see Diem and to set up a deal that would make him, Lansdale, Ambassador to Vietnam. He had me buy a "Father of his Country" gift for Diem...$700.00. I can't repeat all of this but you should get a copy of the Gravel edition, 5 Vol.'s, of the Pentagon Papers and read it. The Lansdale accounts are quite good and reasonably accurate. Ed came back just before the Inauguration and was brought into the White House for a long presentation to Kennedy about Vietnam. Kennedy was taken by it and promised he would have Lansdale back in Vietnam "in a high office". Ed told us in OSO he had the Ambassadorship sewed up. He lived for that job. He had not reckoned with some of JFK's inner staff, George Ball, etc. Finally the whole thing turned around and month by month Lansdale's star sank over the horizon. Erskine retired and his whole shop was scattered. The Navy men went back to the navy as did the Army folks. Gen Wheeler in the JCS asked to have me assigned to the Joint Staff. This wiped out the whole Erskine (Office of Special Operations) office. It was comical. There was Lansdale up there all by himself with no office and no one else. He boiled and he blamed it on Kennedy for not giving him the "promised" Ambassadorship to let him "save" Vietnam. Then with the failure of the Bay of Pigs, caused by that phone call to cancel the air strikes by McGeorge Bundy, the military was given the job of reconstituting some sort of Anti-Castro operation. It was headed by an Army Colonel; but somehow Lansdale (most likely CIA influence) got put into the plans for Operation Mongoose...to get Castro...ostensibly. The U.S. Army has a think-tank at American University. It was called "Operation Camelot". This is where the "Camelot" concept came from. It was anti-JFK's Vietnam strategy. The men running it were Lansdale types, Special Forces background. "Camelot" was King Arthur and Knights of the Round Table: not JFK...then. Through 1962 and 1963 Mongoose and "Camelot" became strong and silent organizations dedicated to countering JFK. Mongoose had access to the CIA's best "hit men" in the business and a lot of "strike" capability. Lansdale had many old friends in the media business such as Joe Alsop, Henry Luce among others. With this background and with his poisoned motivation I am positive that he got collateral orders to manage the Dallas event under the guise of "getting" Castro. It is so simple at that level. A nod from the right place, source immaterial, and the job's done. The "hit" is the easy part. The "escape" must be quick and professional. The cover-up and the scenario are the big jobs. They more than anything else prove the Lansdale mastery. Lansdale was a master writer and planner. He was a great "scenario" guy. It still have a lot of his personally typed material in my files. I am certain that he was behind the elaborate plan and mostly the intricate and enduring cover-up. Given a little help from friends at PEPSICO he could easily have gotten Nixon into Dallas, for "orientation': and LBJ in the cavalcade at the same time, contrary to Secret Service policy. He knew the "Protection" units and the "Secret Service", who was needed and who wasn't. Those were routine calls for him, and they would have believed him. Cabell could handle the police. The "hit men" were from CIA overseas sources, for instance, from the "Camp near Athena, Greece. They are trained, stateless, and ready to go at any time. They ask no questions: speak to no one. They are simply told what to do, when and where. Then they are told how they will be removed and protected. After all, they work for the U.S. Government. The "Tramps" were actors doing the job of cover-up. The hit men are just pros. They do the job for the CIA anywhere. They are impersonal. They get paid. They get protected, and they have enough experience to "blackmail" anyone, if anyone ever turns on them...just like Drug agents. The job was clean, quick and neat. No ripples. The whole story of the POWER of the Cover-up comes down to a few points. There has never been a Grand Jury and trial in Texas. Without a trial there can be nothing. Without a trial it does no good for researchers to dig up data. It has no place to go and what the researchers reveal just helps make the cover-up tighter, or they eliminate that evidence and the researcher. The first man LBJ met with on Nov 29th, after he had cleared the foreign dignitaries out of Washington was Waggoner Carr, Atty Gen'l, Texas to tell him, "No trial in Texas...ever." The next man he met, also on Nov 29th, was J. Edgar Hoover. The first question LBJ asked his old "19 year" neighbor in DC was "Were THEY shooting at me?" LBJ thought that THEY had been shooting at him also as they shot at his friend John Connally. Note that he asked, "Were THEY shooting at me?" LBJ knew there were several hitmen. That's the ultimate clue...THEY. The Connallys said the same thing...THEY. Not Oswald. Then came the heavily loaded press releases about Oswald all written before the deal and released actually before LHO had ever been charged with the crime. I bought the first newspaper EXTRA on the streets of Christchurch, New Zealand with the whole LHO story in that first news...photos and columns of it before the police in Dallas had yet to charge him with that crime. All this canned material about LHO was flashed around the world. Lansdale and his Time-Life and other media friends, with Valenti in Hollywood, have been doing that cover-up since Nov 1963. Even the deMorenschildt story enhances all of this. In deM's personal telephone/address notebook he had the name of an Air Force Colonel friend of mine, Howard Burrus. Burrus was always deep in intelligence. He had been in one of the most sensitive Attache spots in Europe...Switzerland. He was a close friend of another Air Force Colonel and Attache, Godfrey McHugh, who used to date Jackie Bouvier. DeM had Burrus listed under a DC telephone number and on that same telephone number he had "L.B.Johnson, Congressman." Quite a connection. Why...from the Fifties yet.? Godfrey McHugh was the Air Force Attache in Paris. Another most important job. I knew him well, and I transferred his former Ass't Attache to my office in the Pentagon. This gave me access to a lot of information I wanted in the Fifties. This is how I learned that McHugh's long-time special "date" was the fair Jacqueline...yes, the same Jackie Bouvier. Sen. Kennedy met Jackie in Paris when he was on a trip. At that time JFK was dating a beautiful SAS Airline Stewardess who was the date of that Ass't Attache who came to my office. JFK dumped her and stole Jackie away from McHugh. Leaves McHugh happy???? At the JFK Inaugural Ball who should be there but the SAS stewardess, Jackie--of course, and Col Godfrey McHugh. JFK made McHugh a General and made him his "Military Advisor" in the White House where he was near Jackie while JFK was doing all that official travelling connected with his office AND other special interests. Who recommended McHugh for the job? General McHugh was in Dallas and was on Air Force One, with Jackie, on the flight back to Washington..as was Jack Valenti. Why was LBJ's old cohort there at that time and why was he on Air Force One? He is now the Movie Czar. Why in Dallas? See how carefully all of this is interwoven. Burrus is now a very wealthy man in Washington. I have lost track of McHugh. And Jackie is doing well. All in the Lansdale--deM shadows. One of Lansdale's special "black" intelligence associates in the Pentagon was Dorothy Matlack of U.S. Army Intelligence. How does it happen that when deM. flew from Haiti to testify, he was met at the National Airport by Dorothy? The Lansdale story is endless. What people do not do is study the entire environment of his strange career. For example: the most important part of my book, "The Secret Team", is not something that I wrote. It is Appendix III under the title, "Training Under The Mutual Security Program". This is a most important bit of material. It tells more about the period 1963 to 1990 than anything. I fought to have it included verbatim in the book. This material was the work of Lansdale and his crony General Dick Stillwell. Anyone interested in the "JFK Coup d'Etat" ought to know it by heart. I believe this document tells why the Coup took place. It was to reverse the sudden JFK re-orientation of the U.S. Government from Asia to Europe, in keeping with plans made in 1943 at Cairo and Teheran by T.V. Soong and his Asian masterminds. Lansdale and Stillwell were long-time "Asia hands" as were Gen Erskine, Adm Radford, Cardinal Spellman, Henry Luce and so many others. In October 1963, JFK had just signalled this reversal, to Europe, when he published National Security Action Memorandum #263 saying...among other things...that he was taking 1000 troops home from Vietnam by Christmas 1963 and ALL AMERICANS out of Vietnam by the end of 1965. That cost him his life. JFK came to that "Pro-Europe" conclusion in the Summer of 1963 and sent Gen Krulak to Vietnam for advance work. Kurlak and I (with others) wrote that long "Taylor-McNamara" Report of their "Visit to Vietnam" (obviously they did not write, illustrate and bind it as they traveled). Krulak got his information daily in the White House. We simply wrote it. That led to NSAM #263. This same Trip Report is Document #142 and appears on page 751 to 766 of Vol. II of the Gravel Edition of the Pentagon Papers. NSAM #263 appears on pages 769-770 (It makes the Report official). This major Report and NSAM indicated an enormous shift in the orientation of U.S. Foreign Policy from Asia back to Europe. JFK was much more Europe- oriented, as was his father, than pro-Asia. This position was anathema to the Asia-born Luces, etc. There is the story from an insider. I sat in the same office with Lansdale, (OSO of OSD) for years. I listened to him in Manila and read his flurry of notes from 1952 to 1964. I know all this stuff, and much more. I could write ten books. I send this to you because I believe you are one of the most sincere of the "true researchers". You may do with it as you please. I know you will do it right. I may give copies of this to certain other people of our persuasion. (Years ago I told this to Mae Brussell on the promise she would hold it. She did.) Now you can see why I have always said that identification of the "Tramps" was unnecessary, i.e. they are actors. The first time I saw that picture I saw the man I knew and I realized why he was there. He caused the political world to spin on its axis. Now, back to recuperating. L. Fletcher Prouty http://www.prouty.org/garrison.html http://www.prouty.org/main.html http://www.ratical.com/ratville/JFK/USO/chp3_p1.html

In this photograph one can see clearly that the western entrance to the TSBD, through the shipping department, was wide open. I've noticed this before in some of the films. Even so, I don't remember a single person testifying that that door was ever closed or blocked off. When Billy Lovelady discussed this door in his WC testimony it was clear the WC counsel--was it Belin?--had no idea this door existed, and the discussion quickly changed course. Here was an effective escape route. Walk right out the shipping department into the crowd. A year or so ago I read the WC testimony of every DPD officer who went to the building, and I don't remember one of them discussing this door. If anyone has better pictures of it, or if anyone knows of testimony indicating this escape route was blocked off, I'd appreciate it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ********************* Pat: This shows you the back of the TSBD......the shipping dock area..it may be of some help...Taken in 1963....credit Scott Myers.. In all I have ever read there was one DPD stationed at the back door entrance, before the assassination..but no name was mentioned...

************ Hi James: Here is another from my folders..to add to your collection, a photo of Gen.Lansdale, that I believe is a good comparison..the lankiness, and showing the gait of his stance..also his hair does seem to be of the same style and length..Also I recall that Colonel Prouty also stated he recognised the ring..and wasn't there something about the twist of the hand (not sure)??? as well as others noting the ring ? but I cannot recall any details right now.. Hi Ron: I believe the timing may be out re the comparison of the man in the photo taken by Murray approximately within the next 20 minutes after the assassination he states, in "POTP"..pages 494..495.....of the photo of the dirt Street of Elm, that went towards the front door of the TSBD..and Houston St........where we see your man.( he also seems to not have the bearing (military?) of the man they call Gen.Lansdale, ( in the Tramps photo) ( your man seems to slump )...and... The series of Tramps photos were taken sometime after 2.19 pm..page 550 "POTP"..by Smith, Beers and Allen.. So unless he walked down towards the TSBD and Houston at approximately ten to one for Murray to photograph him....and then turned around and walked back again in the other direction, approximately 2.19 pm...?? well it is possible..but I am wondering if he perhaps had been one of the many to have already checked out the Knoll..parking lot..and was simply heading home ..??.......

""Researcher William Turner has turned up evidence in Milwaukee and surrounding towns in Wisconsin that Bremer received money from a group associated with Dennis Cossini, Donald Segretti and J. Timothy Gratz. Several other young "leftists" were seen with Bremer on several occasions in Milwaukee and on the ferry crossing at Lake Michigan. "" Are we going to see the evidence that William Turner turned up.... for clarities sake here....We all can say and quote anything we would like, but we must be prepared to have the documentation and or evidence to prove such an accusation, if not noted as being supposition..... IMO...B

From.." Martha..The Life of Martha Mitchell".. by Winzola McLendon..79.. They called her "The Mouth That Roared" and she certainly did.... Martha Mitchell 1918/74..she was 56 years old. Born Martha Elizabeth Beall born Pine Bluff, Arkansas Sep.2nd..Her Father was a cotton broker her Mother a teacher..of "elocution".. Martha Mitchell "captivated Middle America cheered the Right, infuriated the Left' flipped the pompous ,and thoroly (sic) disproved the theory that the meek shall inherit the earth"..London Times. She was buried on June 3rd,74.. in her naitve Arkansas in the shade of massive oaks at the foot of her Mother's grave..It wasn't what she wanted, her desire to be buried beside her Mother, but then again, none of her final wishes were carried out as she had hoped..Some ignored completely, including those of her last will and testament .. One thing that Martha did not want was that John have anything to do with her funeral, but seeing that he was still her husband Dr.Meyer notified him first , John didn't go to the hospital,the Doctor went to his apartment. She had two children. Son Jay Nov 2/47.. ( first marriage to Clyde Jennings Oct.5/46).. Daughter Martha Elizabeth Jr.Mitchell ( called Marty) Jan 10/61 ..to John Mitchell. Martha's husband John Mitchell and daughter Marty did not accompany her body to Arkansas..John had told Jay he was glad he had called him as he did not know what Martha wanted..When Jay arrived at the funeral home, he found that John had taken over the funeral arrangements from Ray..Mitchell also let it be known he and his daughter Marty would not be attending the furneral home, neither was there to be reserved seating, except for the 8 immediate family members, not even for the Governor who attended..John also requested that there be no visitations at the Ralph Robinson & Son Mortuary..where she would be until it was taken to the First Presbyterian Church.. The Associated press later reported that" Hundreds of residents of this Arkansas River community were kept outside locked doors at Mitchell's orders." Also firm rules for the press, none were to be allowed anywhere near him and photographers were to be placed so far away from the secluded side door of the church, ( where he and Marty would enter) that there would be no chance of getting a picture.Later when Dr.Desiderio Demeco, a professor at the University of Arkansas, took a picture of the casket, the film was confiscated. All media were kept 30 feet from the gravesite including network television. Tempers ran high and one reporter asked the mortuary spokesman why they would lay down such strict rules for Mitchell, saying " This man is a convicted felon".."His fifteen year old daughter isn't" was the reply.. When told that reporters could only sit in one of the last rows of the santuary,Myra McPherson of the Washington Post complained "We, won't be able to see a thing", she was told "You are a very perspective young lady".. John Mitchell while in Pine Bluff, spent his time avoiding the press and Martha's friends.as much as possib,but her son Jay Jennings appreciated that so many were there..at a dinner given the night before the funeral by Ray West Sr.at such they told antedotes about Martha with great affectionate humour... as she would have loved, it was her kind of party.. The next morning when the casket arrived at the church the press and television camera crews standing on the curb across the street, along with the townspeople ..John Mitchell and his daugher arrived through the side door, they did not appear to look at the coffin or at the two ministers who conducted the service,they stared straight ahead or looked at the church windows...One woman noted "..He's trying to ignore her in death as he ignored her in life " Jay with tears in his eyes ,seemed to struggle to keep his composure..as the coffin was taken out the centre aisle at the end of the service Marty started to follow it ..but Mitchell grabbed her arm and they left by the same side door.. The service at the graveside was five minutes long, and MItchell left immediately without speaking to anyone. Prominent among the floral arrangelents,which included a piece from President and Mrs Ford........was a Large green spray with white chrysanthemums spelling out in block letters the message " MARTHA WAS RIGHT "..the funeral director refused to say who had sent them....some people were offended but others thought it so right........In fact many of Martha's obituarys mentioned the fact that Matrha was right..she had told the truth but had been ignored.. Mark Goodman writing for the New Times magazine, said.."With a telephone in one hand and a glass of whiskey in the other, she first sounded the alarm .... We did not listen to Martha Mitchell, and we paid for it...".. Eugene Patterson of the St Petersburg ( Florida) Times said, she wasn't believed "Because she told the truth indiscreetly ...she was written off as a kook in Washington." He also wrote," She married the wrong man, connected with the wrong political crowd, and tried to find her place in the wrong town, at the wrong time.". Following the funeral John Mitchell and Marty went to San Clemente, to visit the Richard Nixons for almost two weeks.It was said by a friend they "interviewed each other for their books".. After John went to 1030 Fifth Ave.Martha's appartment for the first time in two years, he did not ask Jay to go with him..he took Marty and Jill Reed his eldest daughter who later became temporary executrix of Martha's estate .Her clothes were given away no one knew where, and could not be traced they were taken out in bags... friends were told they were given to the Cancer Society but when checked they had not......someone did have the presence of mind to check pockets and her pearls given her by the Japanese government were found in a pocket of a negligee, her diamond rings and other jewellry were not said to be found. Her furnishings many pieces belonging to her family were disposed of .Some showed up on New Yorks Third Ave...Many things were left behind for the new owners of the apartment..Martha had many treasured belongings from her family handed down through the years, they were left and Moses (Moey) Segal, Florida Lawyer//Investor used them till their own arrived, such things as a blue satin, down filled sofa was later spotted on the trash heap in an alley alongside 1030 Fifth Ave.Martha had always said that, people didn't understand what possessions meant to people of the South..they cherished what few possessions they had left after the Civil War..and they lived as decently with them as they could ...so her Mothers belongings as well as her own disappeared......She had wanted Jay and Marty to have them, as of the writing of this book, Jay Jennungs had not received anything from his Mothers estate...5 years later.... Martha has become something of a folk heroine..Every day people..strangers and friends visit her grave..some brining flowers....and sometimes leaving an American flag.....some visit her childhood home, which is now a museum.. "Two things happened in Setember 1977, which intensified interest in Martha. (1) Her hometown paper, the Pine Bluff Commercial..announced it was starting a Martha Mitchell fund drive in the hope of raising enough money to erect a suitable memorial to the town's famous daughter...probably a fountain in the civic centre.. And (2) Richard Nixon went on television and told David Frost ."If it hadn't been for Martha Mitchell, there'd have been no Watergate"... People were outraged at Nixon's accusation. The Commercial Newspaper was flooded with letters and contributions from men and women defending Martha and condemning Richard Nixon...They wrote ""Thank God she told the truth ,which is more than we can say about those involved in the scandal""...""She was a kind of a dippy Saint, a dizzy yet right-on-the-target woman to whom freedom and honesty meant more than protocol and "appropriate behaviour"..... ""I could not believe that even Richard Nixon would have the effrontery to make the statement ( about Martha and Watergate)""..and " if it weren't for her , this (corruption in government) would still be going on and only get worse."" ""Some people, though, saw Richard Nixon's attack on Martha as a "fitting tribute" ,since by doing so he had honored her beyond all expectations."" Bravo Martha... Here are a few sites.. "Why Was Martha Mitchell Kidnapped ?" Mae Brusell http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...ed%20-%201.html "Martha Mitchell, the Watergate Scandel" http://sc.essortment.com/watergatescande_rays.htm Martha recalled in ":Dirty Tricks".. http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20...14705-3931r.htm "And Now the Spiro and Martha Show" http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0...,943302,00.html "Magruder A "Congenital" xxxx"...( More Martha ) http://www.nixonlibrary.org/nrc/030730bLarue.shtml B..

Hi Lee: Recall also Charles Brehm, and the third shot as he called it ,that he heard, he stated it really "frightened him" as "it had a different sound to it, and that anybody knows who has been down under targets in the Army ....clip.......you know when a bullet passes over you..the cracking sound it makes, and that bullet had an absolute crack to it...I do believe that shot was wild .It didn't hit anybody."..... But he also states that this last shot , that he heard, that passed over him..and he does say it came from the TSBD area, was after the President had been hit in the head, and the Limo had started to move..? Hi James : This other tape I have,re the Laser tests, (and no I have not found the correct one as yet...) It is not narrated by Roger Moore, ....that is another... This is like a third party who made a tape of all that occurred during the Laser studies...it seems to me....more like a report...??.I don't believe it follows anyones opinion....and remarks on some happenings that are not on the KGB one........I will continue to look.... B....

Hi Don, Yes, I agree, 4th or 5th floor. My source is indeed a member here at the Education Forum and very much enjoys the discussions . He was never a member of the DPD but did have a solid contact from their ranks. That contact (I don't know his identity) passed away several years ago. I know my friend won't be interviewed. I also know that when a certain individual passes away, he will allow me to post some interesting material. James <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi James, Re the trajectories, when the Laser study was done, and is on video...Groden disagreed with them many times, there were many tough differences of opinion..... One laser study did pin point the Dal Tex second storey window as leading directly to the Tague hit......He also could not get them to do a Laser study to the fence, re the BDM. I will have to watch it again..but I do believe I recall this much....will check. B

Hi Mel: Bernice,Quote:" I notice you relate to Lee Harvey Oswald..in your article ...as being :presumed to be the: lone assassin: Oswald as a self appointed champion of Castro: Lone Madman: L.H.O. murdered Police Officer Tippit within an hour of shooting the President : also crazed assassin... But that he is not referred to as the Alleged or as an Accused... He was never found guilty... in a court of law..therefore he is not.....I am sure the membership awaits, your proof of such...." Are we going to see any proof of any of your insinuations,above pertaining to LHO, that you have stated since you began this thread?? BTW: you stated there was no conspiracy so I left you a link for the Consp. Novice, where do you think anyone begins?? it was not meant as an insult it was meant to be as much help in a condescending way, to you as you posting Rahn's link all over the Forum..for others.......touchy aren't we....? Quote Mel: "", bogus witnesses like Ed Hoffman and Beverly Oliver ‘selling’ their autographs"".. I am also asking for your proof of the above accusations ... when and where did you ever see Beverly sign and accept money for her autograph...??? or was that information related to you, if so would you tell us by whom...?? This accusation, unfounded and not proven so far, is a very serious remark.... Quote Mel: about Alan's reply"..."His use of ridicule, sneers and unfounded accusations reveal exactly what frame of mind he is in."....- Like more of the pot calling the kettle burnt arse I believe.....!! You expect a serious discussion when your article, and each of your following posts have been so condescending...you set the theme, and then are complaining about such...?? It just doesn't work that way..where is your proof...?? It is very easy to make any accusation towards anyone, but then not back up such, nor answer to when questioned...and go on to the next kindly written response to you ,ignoring what has been asked in relpy in a previous post.. ..You simply ignore what you cannot prove, yet continue to do so, and choose to complain, when people become somewhat fed up with your performance, and that to me is exactly what it is, same old, same pat answers...Like a one sided game, that has been going on for nearly 42 years..... everyone be respectful to me, even though I am not, or I shall take my toys and go home...I am so important that if I do you shall all be sorry......about what??...there has been no "Beef" shown so far......same old ... Most have seen this all before, if not read and pay attention, you will not see this often..this is how the LNrs always perform.....Some may think Mel is somewhat brave to come and attend a Conspiracy Forum, IMO...no, he is not, they, he and his buds,on the Rahn site, are hoping they are accomplishing what they set out to do, how many of you have stopped your research and have been spending your time instead attending to and researching this particular thread...and how many newbies, may have had some doubts he has imposed upon you without showing you any proof of such...in relation to something specific he has stated.... That is why he is here, not for any great debate, not for any civil discussion, nor to show you his proof.......not for the relating of any information that may lead to any astounding new breakthrough...... in otherwards he is here to waste your time,and the Forums resources and try to create doubts....Well it isn't working for this Conspiracy believer, and it sure as hell doesn't appear to be working for many others.....You are a Classic, Gov ,WC defender which just in case no one has told you, the public never bought, because they can read..... If there was no conspiracy why do you ,your cohorts ,the Posners,and such ,along with the Media and the Government work so hard at trying to prove there wasn't... and make out that 82% of the public are "conspiracy nut bars"??????? Carry on, but when you do pick up your toys, and leave,don't forget to make sure the Forum and it's membership are to blame...not all of course...and not the few LNrs, who will continue to sit in the background....and report to you and yours....and not those that try to sit in the middle and try to use both sides to forward their future ,just the members that asked for your proof, who you will say insulted you...because you cannot take what you give out.......therefore you cannot carry on under such conditions as it is useless.......same old..... Ron and David.....good posts B

Thank you for this. You should get Chris Dolmar to join the JFK Forum. I also had an exchange of emails with Ken Rahn. I objected to the idea that he presented the views expressed on his website as being academic and objective. Much of his work involves smearing those who have argued in favour of a conspiracy. His favourite term is “leftist”. Rahn believes this mean that “leftists” are not to be trusted. Like Joe McCarthy, Rahn believes that a leftist is anyone who has ever associated with anyone who is left of centre. The evidence he uses for this is from writers and journals under the control of the CIA. (See Operation Mockingbird) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm His treatment of right-wing conspiracy theorists is interesting. For example, he does not mention that Billy James Hargis was a member of the John Birch Society and other extreme right-wing groups. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhargis.htm I invited Ken Rahn to defend his views on our Forum. He refused, saying he did not think it was “educational”. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ***************************** Dr.J. Fetzer : Quote: "Has no one observed that Ken Rahn's work is useless as evidence that implicates Lee Oswald because (1) the lead used to manufacture Mannlicher-Carcano ammo was recycled and therefore is not sufficiently uni- form to establish comparisons and (2) that even if his work were "good as gold", it would establish at most that some of the rounds were fired using Mann- licher-Carcanos but not (a) that they were fired from the Book Depository as opposed to the Dal-Tex, for example, much less ( that they were fired by Lee Oswald, who was actually on the second floor drinking a coke at the time of the assassination? I don't know why anyone takes Ken Rahn seriously." Jim B..

Hi Mr, Ayton: I notice you relate to Lee Harvey Oswald..in your article ...as being :presumed to be the: lone assassin: Oswald as a self appointed champion of Castro: Lone Madman: L.H.O. murdered Police Officer Tippit within an hour of shooting the President : also crazed assassin... But that he is not referred to as the Alleged or as an Accused... He was never found guilty... in a court of law..therefore he is not.....I am sure the membership awaits, your proof of such.... I also notice your article was written and printed in 2003 the 40th Anniversary of the Assassination....so was this article below.....for your information...and the other members... Not all Spam comes via e-mail http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/40th.htm Seeing that you have been adding your link to some other members Bios, as you see fit for their needed studies... I thought perhaps along with a welcome to the Forum , it would be a nice idea to also provide you with one.. for your needed studies...as well.... The Kennedy Assassination for the Novice. http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/ Play fair: B....

Ron:""In his book Harvey and Lee, John Armstrong quotes Robert Oswald as saying, "One of (Lee's) favorite programs was I Led Three Lives . . . In the early 1950's, Lee watched that show every week without fail. When I left home to join the Marines, he was still watching the reruns." Armstrong points out that Robert left home to join the Marines on July 15, 1952, a year and two months before I Led Three Lives was first released (September 1953). Therefore Lee could not possibly have watched the program before Robert left."" ********************************** As Armstrong asks, "why would Robert knowingly make false statements about his dead 'brother,' and for what purpose?" (p. 42). Ron Ecker This is the kind of thing that gets us into trouble. Armstrongs says "knowingly," as if he has any way of knowing Robert's thoughts. The more likely situation is that Robert remembered that Oswald watched the show, and incorrectly remembered him watching it during a certain time period. The "re-runs" he remembers Lee watching were probably the first runs. Sometimes we forget that most people don't use fact-checkers when they write their memoirs, or when being interviewed on their own life. It is the arrogance of the human species that we prefer to believe our memories are solid, when they are really more like putty. Pat Speer &&&&&&&&&&& Hi : John Armstrong ... "Armstrong points out that Robert left home to join the Marines on July 15, 1952, a year and two months before I Led Three Lives was first released (September 1953). Therefore Lee could not possibly have watched the program before Robert left."" Once Robert left home, in July 1952, he never lived nor visited home again, so he could not have seen LHO watching any reruns...Nor the program before as it had not made its premier on the telly as yet... This is a Robert Oswald quote, from "Lee" 1967 "One of (Lee's) favorite programs was I Led Three Lives . . . In the early 1950's, Lee watched that show every week without fail. When I left home to join the Marines, he was still watching the reruns." what reruns??? ""When he left home to join the Marines.""....so this was not a case of later, after he was out of the Marines, and married, he clearly states before....he left home..July 52, a year and two months before the program was first released in Sept. 53.., these were not reruns, couldn't possibley have been.... so it could not have been him incorrectly remembering during any other certain time period... There are many statements that Robert made in his WC testimony about where they lived ,where they visited ,what schools they attended and on, and on....and when comparing his memories to John Pic's, the other brother, in the WC....there are so many differences it is attrocious....and I am not speaking of perhaps their testimony being changed or some deleted,I am speaking of, not the same, addresses they moved to or lived at, or when, not the same schools being named, that they attended etc... if you have never read nor compared, Roberts and John's WC testimonies, sometimes try to find a little time...you will find that these two brothers supposedly raised side by side, in all matters, do not have the same memories.....there is something very wrong with the scenario, of Robert Oswald and John Pic... Also his book Lee was written in 1967....15 years after he left for the Marines, 4 years after the death of Lee, I don't know about you, but why would Robert even mention the TV series ?? Why would it stick in his mind, when it couldn't have happened..?.and he says it did,..... then was he making up stories, to perhaps make his book somewhat more colourful ?? because the TV program was not even on TV when he left..as he was so specific about it being "I Led Three Lives" or perhaps trying to associate Lee with the spy scenario, young nut, influenced by TV programs, got it into his head to be a spy, and of course he was nothing of the kind, just a mixed up kid, who shot a President all by himeslf, .......sure he did.. .as we know Robert also agrees and says his brother Lee, did kill the President ..? "Over the years ,Robert Oswald would continue to provide damaging and misleading statements against Lee Oswald for public consumption. These stories are often taken at face value , based upon the supposed credibility of Robert Oswald..."" from "The Assassinations" Thanks B..

Wonder if there is any connection from Rather to Ed Clark...? Then again we do not know, what version of the Zapruder that Rather actually saw, the early viewers mention about the terrible scenes of the head shots, but neglect to address what else is seen...in relation to all so, we are simply left ,imo ,with more questions...? As usual... Thanks.....B

Hi James: Dan Rather's wife , Jean Goebel.. was born in Smithville, Texas. Dan was born in Wharton,Texas 9/31/31.. Clifton ( Beau) Carter, was from Bryan, Texas.... when he was in the military, where Ed Clark met him under his command.. Contact Martin Shackleford, he is on the alts.his email ad is readily available on there just open a post.... of his.... He may be able to help you, this is a report from him on the 96 COPA meeting.. "" Informally, I was told that a former FBI official said upper level FBI officials believed LBJ was involved; Dan Rather was a boyhood friend of LBJ aide Cliff Carter (Dan Alcorn). "" Dan Alcorn is a well connected Washington Lawyer.. http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/copa.html B..

********************************************* Hi James: This may help in your search in this area, from John Armstrong, am posting the link as there is more info in the article re the man in the Texas Theatre and also some very enlightening research into the leading up to his arrest......there is also mention of the FBI report that the firing pin of LHOs revolver was bent, which means that he could not have shot Tippit.. B Man in the Balcony, Man in the Alley Johnny C. Brewer claimed that on the day of the assassination, he saw a man standing in the lobby of his shoe store at about 1:30 PM. He watched the man walk west on Jefferson and thought (Brewer says he is not positive) that he ducked into the Texas Theater. It was not until December 6th, two weeks after Harvey Oswald's arrest, that Brewer described the man he saw as wearing a brown shirt. He asked theater cashier Julia Postal if she had sold the man a ticket. Postal replied "she did not think so, but she had been listening to the radio and did not remember." She did remember, when testifying before the Warren Commission, that she sold 24 tickets that day. The Texas Theater has a main floor level and a balcony. Upon entering the theater from the "outside doors," there are stairs leading to the balcony on the right. Straight ahead are a second set of "inside doors" leading to the concession stand and the main floor. It is possible to go directly to the balcony, without being seen by people at the concession stand, by climbing the stairs to the right. Brewer walked through the first and second set of double doors to the concession stand. He asked Butch Burroughs, who operated the concession stand, if he had seen the man come in. Burroughs said that he had been busy and did not notice. Brewer checked the darkened balcony but did not see the man he had followed. Brewer and Burroughs then checked and made sure the exits had not been opened. Brewer then went back to the box office and told Julia Postal he thought the man was still in the theater and to call the police. Julia called the police. Police broadcasts at 1:45 PM reported "Have information a suspect just went into the Texas Theater . . . Supposed to be hiding in the balcony" (17H418). When the police arrived, they were told by a "young female," probably Julia Postal, that the man was in the balcony. The police who entered the front of the theater went to the balcony. They were questioning a young man when Officers Walker, McDonald and Hutson entered the rear of the theater. Hutson counted seven theater patrons on the main level. From the record, these seven would break down as follows: 2 Two boys (half way down center section searched by Walker & McDonald while Hutson looked on) 1 Oswald (3rd row from back-center section) 1 Jack Davis (right rear section-Oswald first sat next to him) 1 Unknown person (across the aisle from Davis-Oswald left his seat next to Davis and moved to a seat next to this person; Oswald then got up and walked into the theater lobby) 1 George Applin (6 rows from back-center section) 1 John Gibson (1st seat from the back on the far right side) Oswald bought popcorn at 1:15 PM, walked to the main floor and reportedly took a seat next to a pregnant woman. Minutes before police arrived, this woman disappeared into the balcony and was never seen again. She was not one of the seven patrons counted by Officer Hutson. Captain Westbrook and FBI Agent Barrett came into the theater from the rear entrance minutes later. Westbrook may have been looking for "Lee Harvey Oswald"-identified from the contents of the wallet he found at the scene of Tippit's murder. From police broadcasts, the police were looking for a suspect wearing a white shirt, white jacket, with dark brown or black hair, and hiding in the balcony. But their attention quickly focused on a man wearing a brown shirt with medium brown hair, on the main floor. When this man was approached by Officer McDonald, he allegedly hit McDonald and then tried to fire his .38 revolver. Several police officers and theater patrons heard the "snap" of a pistol trying to fire. A cartridge was later removed from the .38 and found to have an indentation on the primer. An FBI report described the firing pin as "bent." The man in the brown shirt, Harvey Oswald, was subdued by Officers Hawkins, Hutson, Walker, Carroll and Hill, and then handcuffed. Captain Westbrook ordered the officers to "get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him." As he was taken out the front, Julia Postal heard an officer remark "We have our man on both counts." In an FBI report, we find the following: this was the first time that she [Postal] had heard of Tippit's death, and one of the officers identified the man they arrested by calling out his name, "Oswald".… (Emphasis added. FBI report 2/29/64 by Arthur E. Carter.) If the person who identified Oswald by name was Captain Westbrook, he could have obtained Oswald's name from identification-perhaps the Texas driver's license-in Lee Oswald's wallet found at the scene of the Tippit shooting. If someone other than Captain Westbrook identified Oswald by name, then someone in the Dallas Police had prior knowledge of Oswald. Identification of the policeman who made this statement might have aided in answering this question. Harvey Oswald, the man wearing the "brown shirt," who probably bought a ticket from Julia Postal, bought popcorn from Butch Burroughs at 1:15 PM, sat next to Jack Davis before the main feature began at 1:20 PM, sat next to another identified patron, and then sat next to a pregnant woman (who disappeared), was brought out the front entrance and placed in a police car. En route to City Hall, Oswald kept repeating "Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested?" In light of the above, it was a good question to pose. The police (Lt. Cunningham and Detective John B. Toney) did question a man in the balcony of the theater. Lt. Cunningham said "We were questioning a young man who was sitting on the stairs in the balcony when the manager told us the suspect was on the first floor." Detective Toney said "There was a young man sitting near the top of the stairs and we ascertained from manager on duty that this subject had been in the theater since about 12:05 PM." Notice that both Cunningham and Toney say they spoke to the "manager." Manager? We know from Postal's testimony that the owner of the theater, John Callahan, left for the day around 1:30 PM. The projectionist remained in the projection room during Oswald's arrest. Julia Postal remained outside at the box office. Burroughs was the only other theater employee and, according to his testimony, he "stayed at the door at the rear of the theater" (near the concession stand), "did not see any struggle" and then "remained at the concession stand" during Oswald's arrest. Burroughs never left the main level of the theater. Clearly, neither Postal, Burroughs, nor the projectionist (the only theater employees on duty) spoke to these officers either in the balcony or on the stairs in the balcony. Someone either identified himself as a theater "manager," or the officers mistook someone as the theater "manager," or these officers were lying about speaking to the "manager." The "manager" and the person whom they questioned in the balcony remain unidentified. Oddly, and inconsistently, the police homicide report of Tippit's murder reads "suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson." Detective Stringfellow's report states "Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater." After (Harvey) Oswald's arrest Lt. E..L. Cunningham, Detective E.E. Taylor, Detective John Toney, and patrolman C.F. Bentley were directed to search all of the people in the balcony and obtain their names and addresses. Out of 24 (the number of tickets Postal said she sold) theater patrons that day, the Dallas Police provided the names of two-John Gibson and George Applin. If the names of the other 22 theater patrons were obtained, that list has disappeared. The identity of the man questioned by police in the balcony remains a mystery. He was not arrested and there is no police report, record of arrest, nor mention of any person other than Oswald. What happened to this man? What happened to the list of theater patrons? Captain C.E. Talbert and some officers were questioning a boy in the alley while a pickup truck was sitting with the motor running a few yards away (24H242). Talbert was one of the few DPD officers at the Texas Theater who did not write a report of Oswald's arrest to Chief Curry (16 officers wrote such reports). Talbert's testimony before the Warren Commission runs for over 20 pages. At no time was he asked about his involvement at the Texas Theater or his questioning of a young man in the alley behind the theater. Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors from the theater, walked out the rear of his shop shortly before 2:00 PM and saw police cars backed up to Madison Street. He watched as the police escorted a man from the rear of the Texas Theater wearing a "white pullover shirt." They placed the man in a squad car and drove away. He noticed the man was very "flush" in the face as though he had been in a struggle. Haire's description of this man-"white shirt" with a "flush face"-is consistent with witness statements of Tippit's killer before, during and after the shooting. For 25 years Mr. Haire and other witnesses thought they had witnessed the arrest of Oswald behind the Texas Theater in the alley. When told Oswald was brought out the front of the theater Haire asked "Then who was the person I saw police take out the rear of the theater, put in a police car, and drive off ?" http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr198-jfk.html

Hi Tim: ""In late March of 1968, Hemming was in Los Angeles and was offered money to kill Martin Luther King, Jr., an offer he reported to the FBI. Within two weeks, King was murdered in Atlanta."" I thought I had better point out this error in your article.... MLK was assassinated in Memphis....not Atlanta .. B

Thank you Bernice, only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ...... Thanks for the reference to POTP. Although I love some of the information in that book, I still can't get over what a bad idea it was to replicate all those photo's at a size that impedes research. Anyroad, now that we know that those Murray & Allen photo's were taken ten minutes after the shooting, it suggests that Haygood was either a) mistaken about the time he left the street for the TSBD or he's already left the street & the crowd we see are just continuing to stand in the same place after he left. As far as the builder or "Hammerman" I mentioned in that Murray photo Bernice, he is not the black guy bent over but the one just looking to cross the street. He is better seen of course, in Lee's print of that Allen photo but here is a close up of him from that Murray POTP print (Yes Richard, those pictures really are a "pain") /sigh. I have problems with him being a builder because of his soft shoes & "ankle swinging" pants, not against the law but strange to my eye & also, if that's really a hammer(it's too hard for me to tell) & he's really a builder, then where is his tool belt or wide pocket to put his hammer into? Looks odd to me. Casual labour at best imo, hence my reference to the floor laying team in the TSBD. Now if this guy was the one who told Haygood where the shots came from.... Here's one for Lee. If you look closely at the first close up I posted above I think you can see the bench there behind the wall, anyone else see it? But Lee, you mentioned the guy at the corner of the wall in the hat, I don't think he was standing on anything like you are suggesting, that's a really short wall on the otherside & we could easilly see someone's waistline from Elm St if they were stood right next to the wall. I think I might have a good candidate for who it is though. He's a strange looking character to say the least. Could this be a disguise or was he just a freaky dresser? Take a look. Fareeaky! Alan <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *************** Hi Alan: "only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ...... "" No we all do things such as this all the time, we miss much on the first glance, then say oops.. Yes, I also wish the photo's and Trask's book were some 10xs larger..and those in colours, were presented as so. From what I see in the photos, the crowds appear to have moved on relatively quickly in some areas......and from what there is in print regarding such, though there does appear to be those two groups,one on the road, the Haygood area, and standing on the hill re the closest pergola to the TSBD....also I believe I have read where the authoritys moved them along eventually, those that lingered...and many were told to report to the DPD to give their statements, also perhaps when some people began to be taken into custody, many moved along and left a lot quicker than they normally would have.... No Hammerman is not the custodian bent over, I am well aware of, as you call him "Hammerman" ,much time in the past has been spent on who he was, and his tool, in his hand or whatever..he more than likely was as you say just one of the workmen..in the area. He could have worked in a hardware store or been working on the TSBD new floor, for all we know. I think by this time, whomever the guilty were were long gone...I really cannot see them hanging around waiting to be arrested..but that is JMO.. I like the freaky guy, what is it.?? Thanks for the come back..B.....

Thanks Bernice. Yes that image appears to be the same as the one i posted in my thread (Furrows in the grass) Thanks again. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ************************ Hi Robin: I checked and it was a cropped copy that Lee posted but on another Forum.. sorry for the confusion, Thanks.....B

""Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up. His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward. Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD."" Alan *************** Alan: In another of Murray's the man bending over can been seen standing, he is of a dark complextion and is dressed as one of the custodians... BTW: Murray was continually all over Dealey for a long period of time after the assn he seems to have gotten an amazing collection of photographs.... *************** Larry : ""I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker and he was by the stairs and elevators. One other option for the fifth floor were the three men there who stated they ran to the west side of the 5th floor to watch what was happeing on the knoll/fence. Sort of strange behavior given their later statements about being aware of a shooter above them on the sixth floor....common sense would suggest going into hiding....not rushing to the far end of the building and possibly being seen by the exiting gunman. In any event, if anything - given their remarks - they would have been opening windows on the west end of the fifth floor for a better view. P.S. one time reference for when officers might have been first opening windows is in POTP - it shows a senior DPD officer leaning out a window and yelling down that they have found something in the "snipers nest" area just to his left."" ********* Hi Larry: In reply to your P.S: This again is a Jim Murray photo....it was taken shortly after 1 pm..and shows "Dallas Police Sgt.Gerry Hill...leaning out of a sixth floor window ,pointing to the corner window where the sniper location and spent shell casings had been found moments before....."That Day In Dallas"... Larry.....""I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker and he was by the stairs and elevators."" Recall Tom Alyea...working for WFAA...an affiliate of ABC....He was on his way back from being in Fort Worth, they were on Commerce St.....and listening to to the parade coverage on the radio when they heard the WFAA announcer break in that shots had been fired at the Presidential motorcade...he jumped out of the car and starting running....he began filming as he ran across Main..he saw no police ,people were running towards the railroad tracks , and others towards the monument, ( pegola) he figured nothing going on and ran up Elm and Houston...and saw a little activity at the intersection....he noticed several cops by now and one man looking up at the TSBD....He filmed the entrance as six or seven plainclothesmen rushed in through the TSBD doors..and he followed unchallenged with Dallas M.N. Kent Biffle right behind him....They got in and were locked in....immediately...this was between 12.34 and 12.36 ..they heard a fellow say..."Shut the door! Lock it ! ... no one in and no one out.." He states various officers and plainclothesmen were in the TSBD..looking for a culprit or evidence...The search was unco-ordinated as they went scattering and scurrying amongst the floors....this was before the large scale uniformed police response to the police dispatch orders....Dep Luke Mooney had made a cursory exam of the second floor , then took the stairs up meeting other officers coming down. He stopped at the 6 th floor criss-crossing it and checking the fire escape ...then went up to the seventh floor,looking there with officers Webster and Vickery..They peered there into the stairway to the attic but it was pitched black and they decided to wait for flood lights ( which the Fire Dept brought, they also brought portable lights).. Mooney then went back down to the 6 th floor...and all this time Alyea was running around following them and filming....he went down and followed Mooney ahead of Vickery and Webster...They came down right behind him to the 6th...Alyea stated in an interview in 64....He thought there was going to be a gunfight....First we went to the fifth floor,no one was sure of where the shots had come from..they then went to the 6th and then the 7th....He filmed all ,looking for a suspect..the men crawled over and between huge piles of boxes..They climbed up into ceiling ducts and similar places where a man might hide...He states the mood was so tense that, if someone had dropped a book ,he was sure that 15 bullets would have been shot in that direction.....Sheriff Bill Decker arrived about 12.58 from the Trade Mart..he remained outside while the Police officials went in,and attempting to tighten up the situation he then ordered it sealed....Fritz and his companions "... took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and secured the building to see if we could find him.."...thinking the culprit could possibley be still inside.... It was shortly after that ...that Mooney, having left and then come back a second time??...searched the 6 th floor again , he stated.."I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building and I saw these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there, and I squeezed between two ..and the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there....that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up ,looked to be a rest for the weapon."...Mooney then called out, they came running ...Around 3.00 pm or so knowing he was the only news cameraman present he knew he needed film and also to get out what he had...On finding a phone within the building he called WFAA and requested a fresh can of film for an exposed....Photographer Ron Reiland arrived , but he could not get in...he signaled to him to throw the new film to him and he threw the exposed to Ron...he took off and Officer watching coud not leave his post to stop him...Aylea shot 500 feet of film that day....He then managed to get out of the building around 3.15pm...The Crime scene crew stayed into the evening... Information..."POTP"..."That Day In Dallas" and Alyea..of course.. B

Robin: "Hi Bernice. Great information, thanks. I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image. I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination." ********************* Hi Robin: Here is the photo it is Murray's first , the clock states 12.39 , also shows the temperature as being 66 degrees in others......the clock turns up dark when posting on the web....they are all available in "POTP" and also "That Day In Dallas" and very clear...seeing this is 9 minutes after,I perhaps would not count on the windows being as they were at the time of the shooting....some may have been shut while the DPD and or opened others...but it is always good to look...and check.. B....

Hi Lee: ""I agree with your observation concerning the man in the foreground. Why is this man permitted to be picking around in the grass in an area that appears to be secured? I thought I had read someplace, as relates to the arrival of the 'mystery man' [whom, IMO has never been properly identified - looks more like EH Hunt to me than the old tramp] that the area where the object that appeared to be a .45 caliber round was secured and guarded until it was removed."" Re the above information...for your info.....recall the Murray photo that you posted with the officer pointing to the TSBD window....well that photo has been cropped, I have not got access as I am on the lap.....but the clock has been cropped off the top and the clock states 12.39... These photos of Murray and Allen indicate interest on part of the officers at this spot three feet to the west of the rectanglular concrete frame surrounding the manhole.... In the grass....in Dec. 63...New Republic by Richard Dudman...in his article he stated that a police inspector had told him,that upon entering the area at the side of the street where the President had been shot ,they had"....found another bullet in the grass.".... Officer Foster re WC....stated that they "found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.."..at the concrete corner of the manhole cover and richocheted out." ... An examination of the original Murray negatives show an area of turf darker than the surrounding grass...The Murray photo shows no identifiable bullet..when asked 33 years later, Murray stated.." At the time I was photographing ,my honest opinion, was that it looked like there had been heel marks and something like a spike heel had come out of the dirt..and created a little mound of damp earth...I certainly didn't see any bullets...the later speculation , and I'm willing to believe it, is that the mound was brain matter from Kennedy's skull..It could well have been tissue. It was dark...muddy color...nothing to suggest brains or blood." The photos are too inconclusive to be able to tell us what if anything was picked up off of the ground.. The unknown man dressed in the suit has been tentatively identified by some recent researchers as Agent Robert M.Barrett... Trask....The Free-Lancer chapter....

Hi Lee, I believe at least one witness told us that a crowd started to gather around the policeman's motorcycle on Elm St(sorry I cannot pinpoint the source atm). For some reason I had a good idea that it was Haygood's cycle this witness was talking about. If you look at Haygood's testimony, he mentions that after getting back to his bike that people came up to him & started talking. So I believe this may well be what we are seeing here. In the same exchange with Belin; Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters? Mr. HAYGOOD. Right. Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said? Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top." Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said? Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words. Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there? Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can." Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never. Mr. BELIN. What happened? Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/haygood.htm So I would say somewhere around 4-6 mins after the shooting for that photo. I think this one was taken just seconds before. Is that our hammerman looking to cross the street? Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up. His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward. Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD? Good stuff. Big thankyou for the "Marguerite on the knoll" photo, where's it from? Alan <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ******** Hi Alan: Long time, hope all is well.... The first photo that you referred to on the previous page was taken by William Allen ...of the Dallas Times Herald... This one you have posted is Jim Murray's ( he was freelancing that day) seventh and last and the clock states 12.40....his first in the series was taken at 12.39... The similarities of the Murray and Allen photos have caused confusion at times amongst the researchers..as they were taken at the same time.... Trask pages 497 to page 499..... B

From A.J. Weberman's Nodule 17: HEMMING told this researcher: " . . . The elevator was locked on the seventh floor. It could be locked in position up there in the old days, it could be put in a safety position . . . To get off at the sixth floor, and we presume most of the shooting was done from the sixth floor, you run the elevator to the seventh floor. The torsion bar in the bottom is where you put your snap links in. Your ropes are all bundled up. All you have to do is raise the door, it doesn't have a safety on it, and slide up the cargo door and pull your string. Your ropes drop down to the bottom of the elevator shaft. It takes one second to do it. You're going with a double line so you can pull it through. You leave it in the bottom of the elevator shaft. . . . No one ever checked the bottom of the shaft.” http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule17.htm Ron <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ***************** Hi Ron: ""HEMMING told this researcher: " . . . The elevator was locked on the seventh floor.."" The elevator only went to the sixth floor...?....there is much more on this on the web..... ""The building was built in 1903 and is owned by the D. Harold Byrd Associates. The school depository firm moved in in 1960 and took a 15 year-lease. It was previously occupied by a wholesale grocery firm. Cason said they remodled most of the building, except the sixth floor where Oswald allegedly stalked his victim. On the first floor is the general shipping area and the second is the company's administrative offices. The third and fourth floors are occupied by publishers' manufacturing representatives. The fifth floor and basement are used for filling book orders. Cason said the sixth floor is seldom used. He said an employe might go up there two or three times a week. There are two freight elevators that go to the sixth floor, but a passenger elevator only reaches the fourth floor."" http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/08-Parks-36...s/first.reports The Couch film indicates it took Baker no longer than 25 seconds to reach the front door. http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id171.htm