Bernice Moore

""Researcher William Turner has turned up evidence in Milwaukee and surrounding towns in Wisconsin that Bremer received money from a group associated with Dennis Cossini, Donald Segretti and J. Timothy Gratz. Several other young "leftists" were seen with Bremer on several occasions in Milwaukee and on the ferry crossing at Lake Michigan. ""

Are we going to see the evidence that William Turner turned up.... for clarities sake here....We all can say and quote anything we would like, but we must be prepared to have the documentation and or evidence to prove such an accusation, if not noted as being supposition.....

IMO...B

From.." Martha..The Life of Martha Mitchell".. by Winzola McLendon..79..

They called her "The Mouth That Roared" and she certainly did....

Martha Mitchell 1918/74..she was 56 years old.

Born Martha Elizabeth Beall born Pine Bluff, Arkansas Sep.2nd..Her Father was a cotton broker her Mother a teacher..of "elocution"..

Martha Mitchell "captivated Middle America cheered the Right, infuriated the Left' flipped the pompous ,and thoroly (sic) disproved the theory that the meek shall inherit the earth"..London Times.

She was buried on June 3rd,74.. in her naitve Arkansas in the shade of massive oaks at the foot of her Mother's grave..It wasn't what she wanted, her desire to be buried beside her Mother, but then again, none of her final wishes were carried out as she had hoped..Some ignored completely, including those of her last will and testament ..

One thing that Martha did not want was that John have anything to do with her funeral, but seeing that he was still her husband Dr.Meyer notified him first , John didn't go to the hospital,the Doctor went to his apartment. She had two children.

Son Jay Nov 2/47.. ( first marriage to Clyde Jennings Oct.5/46)..

Daughter Martha Elizabeth Jr.Mitchell ( called Marty) Jan 10/61 ..to John Mitchell.

Martha's husband John Mitchell and daughter Marty did not accompany her body to Arkansas..John had told Jay he was glad he had called him as he did not know what Martha wanted..When Jay arrived at the funeral home, he found that John had taken over the funeral arrangements from Ray..Mitchell also let it be known he and his daughter Marty would not be attending the furneral home, neither was there to be reserved seating, except for the 8 immediate family members, not even for the Governor who attended..John also requested that there be no visitations at the Ralph Robinson & Son Mortuary..where she would be until it was taken to the First Presbyterian Church..

The Associated press later reported that" Hundreds of residents of this Arkansas River community were kept outside locked doors at Mitchell's orders."

Also firm rules for the press, none were to be allowed anywhere near him and photographers were to be placed so far away from the secluded side door of the church, ( where he and Marty would enter) that there would be no chance of getting a picture.Later when Dr.Desiderio Demeco, a professor at the University of Arkansas, took a picture of the casket, the film was confiscated. All media were kept 30 feet from the gravesite including network television.

Tempers ran high and one reporter asked the mortuary spokesman why they would lay down such strict rules for Mitchell, saying " This man is a convicted felon".."His fifteen year old daughter isn't" was the reply..

When told that reporters could only sit in one of the last rows of the santuary,Myra McPherson of the Washington Post complained "We, won't be able to see a thing", she was told "You are a very perspective young lady"..

John Mitchell while in Pine Bluff, spent his time avoiding the press and Martha's friends.as much as possib,but her son Jay Jennings appreciated that so many were there..at a dinner given the night before the funeral by Ray West Sr.at such they told antedotes about Martha with great affectionate humour... as she would have loved, it was her kind of party..

The next morning when the casket arrived at the church the press and television camera crews standing on the curb across the street, along with the townspeople ..John Mitchell and his daugher arrived through the side door, they did not appear to look at the coffin or at the two ministers who conducted the service,they stared straight ahead or looked at the church windows...One woman noted "..He's trying to ignore her in death as he ignored her in life " Jay with tears in his eyes ,seemed to struggle to keep his composure..as the coffin was taken out the centre aisle at the end of the service Marty started to follow it ..but Mitchell grabbed her arm and they left by the same side door..

The service at the graveside was five minutes long, and MItchell left immediately without speaking to anyone.

Prominent among the floral arrangelents,which included a piece from President and Mrs Ford........was a Large green spray with white chrysanthemums spelling out in block letters the message " MARTHA WAS RIGHT "..the funeral director refused to say who had sent them....some people were offended but others thought it so right........In fact many of Martha's obituarys mentioned the fact that Matrha was right..she had told the truth but had been ignored..

Mark Goodman writing for the New Times magazine, said.."With a telephone in one hand and a glass of whiskey in the other, she first sounded the alarm ....

We did not listen to Martha Mitchell, and we paid for it..."..

Eugene Patterson of the St Petersburg ( Florida) Times said, she wasn't believed "Because she told the truth indiscreetly ...she was written off as a kook in Washington." He also wrote," She married the wrong man, connected with the wrong political crowd, and tried to find her place in the wrong town, at the wrong time.".

Following the funeral John Mitchell and Marty went to San Clemente, to visit the Richard Nixons for almost two weeks.It was said by a friend they "interviewed each other for their books"..

After John went to 1030 Fifth Ave.Martha's appartment for the first time in two years, he did not ask Jay to go with him..he took Marty and Jill Reed his eldest daughter who later became temporary executrix of Martha's estate .Her clothes were given away no one knew where, and could not be traced they were taken out in bags... friends were told they were given to the Cancer Society but when checked they had not......someone did have the presence of mind to check pockets and her pearls given her by the Japanese government were found in a pocket of a negligee, her diamond rings and other jewellry were not said to be found.

Her furnishings many pieces belonging to her family were disposed of .Some showed up on New Yorks Third Ave...Many things were left behind for the new owners of the apartment..Martha had many treasured belongings from her family handed down through the years, they were left and Moses (Moey) Segal, Florida Lawyer//Investor used them till their own arrived, such things as a blue satin, down filled sofa was later spotted on the trash heap in an alley alongside 1030 Fifth Ave.Martha had always said that, people didn't understand what possessions meant to people of the South..they cherished what few possessions they had left after the Civil War..and they lived as decently with them as they could ...so her Mothers belongings as well as her own disappeared......She had wanted Jay and Marty to have them, as of the writing of this book, Jay Jennungs had not received anything from his Mothers estate...5 years later....

Martha has become something of a folk heroine..Every day people..strangers and friends visit her grave..some brining flowers....and sometimes leaving an American flag.....some visit her childhood home, which is now a museum..

"Two things happened in Setember 1977, which intensified interest in Martha. (1) Her hometown paper, the Pine Bluff Commercial..announced it was starting a Martha Mitchell fund drive in the hope of raising enough money to erect a suitable memorial to the town's famous daughter...probably a fountain in the civic centre..

And (2) Richard Nixon went on television and told David Frost ."If it hadn't been for Martha Mitchell, there'd have been no Watergate"...

People were outraged at Nixon's accusation. The Commercial Newspaper was flooded with letters and contributions from men and women defending Martha and condemning Richard Nixon...They wrote ""Thank God she told the truth ,which is more than we can say about those involved in the scandal""...""She was a kind of a dippy Saint, a dizzy yet right-on-the-target woman to whom freedom and honesty meant more than protocol and "appropriate behaviour".....

""I could not believe that even Richard Nixon would have the effrontery to make the statement ( about Martha and Watergate)""..and " if it weren't for her , this (corruption in government) would still be going on and only get worse.""

""Some people, though, saw Richard Nixon's attack on Martha as a "fitting tribute" ,since by doing so he had honored her beyond all expectations.""

Bravo Martha...

Here are a few sites..

"Why Was Martha Mitchell Kidnapped ?"

Mae Brusell

http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae%20Brussell%...ed%20-%201.html

"Martha Mitchell, the Watergate Scandel"

http://sc.essortment.com/watergatescande_rays.htm

Martha recalled in ":Dirty Tricks"..

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20...14705-3931r.htm

"And Now the Spiro and Martha Show"

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0...,943302,00.html

"Magruder A "Congenital" xxxx"...( More Martha )

http://www.nixonlibrary.org/nrc/030730bLarue.shtml

B..

ce350 in a negative view, with enlarged and enhanced insets of areas of tinting, coupled with a low quality effort to demonstrate a trajectory for a shot from the 2nd floor window, penetrating the windshield from the rear, and ending up striking the curb on Main, unjacketed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lee:

Recall also Charles Brehm, and the third shot as he called it ,that he heard, he stated it really "frightened him" as "it had a different sound to it, and that anybody knows who has been down under targets in the Army ....clip.......you know when a bullet passes over you..the cracking sound it makes, and that bullet had an absolute crack to it...I do believe that shot was wild .It didn't hit anybody.".....

But he also states that this last shot , that he heard, that passed over him..and he does say it came from the TSBD area, was after the President had been hit in the head, and the Limo had started to move..?

Hi James :

This other tape I have,re the Laser tests, (and no I have not found the correct one as yet...)

It is not narrated by Roger Moore, ....that is another...

This is like a third party who made a tape of all that occurred during the Laser

studies...it seems to me....more like a report...??.I don't believe it follows anyones opinion....and remarks on some happenings that are not on the KGB one........I will continue to look....

B....

Good Day James.... Thank You for providing that additional Dal-Tex photo looking southwestward down Elm.

Quick triangulation shows that photo was captured from the Dal-Tex south face, 4th vertical column of windows eastward from the DT southwest corner (I estimate 4th or 5th floor).

Your D.P.D. source sounds very interesting. Is there a chance of an interview and/or asking him to join us online?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Don,

Yes, I agree, 4th or 5th floor.

My source is indeed a member here at the Education Forum and very much enjoys the discussions . He was never a member of the DPD but did have a solid contact from their ranks. That contact (I don't know his identity) passed away several years ago.

I know my friend won't be interviewed. I also know that when a certain individual passes away, he will allow me to post some interesting material.

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi James,

Re the trajectories, when the Laser study was done, and is on video...Groden disagreed with them many times, there were many tough differences of opinion.....

One laser study did pin point the Dal Tex second storey window as leading directly to the Tague hit......He also could not get them to do a Laser study to the fence, re the BDM.

I will have to watch it again..but I do believe I recall this much....will check.

B

Hi Mel:

Bernice,Quote:" I notice you relate to Lee Harvey Oswald..in your article

...as being :presumed to be the:

lone assassin:

Oswald as a self appointed champion of Castro:

Lone Madman:

L.H.O. murdered Police Officer Tippit within an hour

of shooting the President :

also crazed assassin...

But that he is not referred to as the Alleged or as an Accused...

He was never found guilty... in a court of law..therefore he is

not.....I am sure the membership awaits, your proof

of such...."

Are we going to see any proof of any of your insinuations,above pertaining to LHO, that you have stated since you began this thread??

BTW: you stated there was no conspiracy so I left you a link for the Consp. Novice, where do you think anyone begins?? it was not meant as an insult it was meant to be as much help in a condescending way, to you as you posting Rahn's link all over the Forum..for others.......touchy aren't we....?

Quote Mel: "", bogus witnesses like Ed Hoffman and Beverly Oliver ‘selling’ their autographs""..

I am also asking for your proof of the above accusations ...

when and where did you ever see Beverly sign and accept money for her autograph...??? or was that information related to you, if so would you tell us by whom...?? This accusation, unfounded and not proven so far, is a very serious remark....

Quote Mel: about Alan's reply"..."His use of ridicule, sneers and unfounded accusations reveal exactly what frame of mind he is in."....-

Like more of the pot calling the kettle burnt arse I believe.....!!

You expect a serious discussion when your article, and each of your following posts have been so condescending...you set the theme, and then are complaining about such...??

It just doesn't work that way..where is your proof...?? It is very easy to make any accusation towards anyone, but then not back up such, nor answer to when questioned...and go on to the next kindly written response to you ,ignoring what has been asked in relpy in a previous post.. ..You simply ignore what you cannot prove, yet continue to do so, and choose to complain, when people become somewhat fed up with your performance, and that to me is exactly what it is, same old, same pat answers...Like a one sided game, that has been going on for nearly 42 years..... everyone be respectful to me, even though I am not, or I shall take my toys and go home...I am so important that if I do you shall all be sorry......about what??...there has been no "Beef" shown so far......same old ...

Most have seen this all before, if not read and pay attention, you will not see this often..this is how the LNrs always perform.....Some may think Mel is somewhat brave to come and attend a Conspiracy Forum, IMO...no, he is not, they, he and his buds,on the Rahn site, are hoping they are accomplishing what they set out to do, how many of you have stopped your research and have been spending your time instead attending to and researching this particular thread...and how many newbies, may have had some doubts he has imposed upon you without showing you any proof of such...in relation to something specific he has stated....

That is why he is here, not for any great debate, not for any civil discussion, nor to show you his proof.......not for the relating of any information that may lead to any astounding new breakthrough...... in otherwards he is here to waste your time,and the Forums resources and try to create doubts....Well it isn't working for this Conspiracy believer, and it sure as hell doesn't appear to be working for many others.....You are a Classic, Gov ,WC defender which just in case no one has told you, the public never bought, because they can read.....

If there was no conspiracy why do you ,your cohorts ,the Posners,and such ,along with the Media and the Government work so hard at trying to prove there wasn't... and make out that 82% of the public are "conspiracy nut bars"???????

Carry on, but when you do pick up your toys, and leave,don't forget to make sure the Forum and it's membership are to blame...not all of course...and not the few LNrs, who will continue to sit in the background....and report to you and yours....and not those that try to sit in the middle and try to use both sides to forward their future ,just the members that asked for your proof, who you will say insulted you...because you cannot take what you give out.......therefore you cannot carry on under such conditions as it is useless.......same old.....

Ron and David.....good posts

B

I'd like to post a debate between a friend of mine, Chris Dolmar, and Ken Rahn, which took place over a period of months during June and September 2001:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for this. You should get Chris Dolmar to join the JFK Forum.

I also had an exchange of emails with Ken Rahn. I objected to the idea that he presented the views expressed on his website as being academic and objective. Much of his work involves smearing those who have argued in favour of a conspiracy. His favourite term is “leftist”. Rahn believes this mean that “leftists” are not to be trusted. Like Joe McCarthy, Rahn believes that a leftist is anyone who has ever associated with anyone who is left of centre. The evidence he uses for this is from writers and journals under the control of the CIA. (See Operation Mockingbird)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm

His treatment of right-wing conspiracy theorists is interesting. For example, he does not mention that Billy James Hargis was a member of the John Birch Society and other extreme right-wing groups.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhargis.htm

I invited Ken Rahn to defend his views on our Forum. He refused, saying he did not think it was “educational”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*****************************

Dr.J. Fetzer : Quote:

"Has no one observed that Ken Rahn's work is useless

as evidence that implicates Lee Oswald because (1)

the lead used to manufacture Mannlicher-Carcano ammo

was recycled and therefore is not sufficiently uni-

form to establish comparisons and (2) that even if

his work were "good as gold", it would establish at

most that some of the rounds were fired using Mann-

licher-Carcanos but not (a) that they were fired

from the Book Depository as opposed to the Dal-Tex,

for example, much less ( that they were fired by

Lee Oswald, who was actually on the second floor

drinking a coke at the time of the assassination?

I don't know why anyone takes Ken Rahn seriously."

Jim

B..

Hi Mr, Ayton:

I notice you relate to Lee Harvey Oswald..in your article

...as being :presumed to be the:

lone assassin:

Oswald as a self appointed champion of Castro:

Lone Madman:

L.H.O. murdered Police Officer Tippit within an hour

of shooting the President :

also crazed assassin...

But that he is not referred to as the Alleged or as an Accused...

He was never found guilty... in a court of law..therefore he is

not.....I am sure the membership awaits, your proof

of such....

I also notice your article was written and printed in 2003

the 40th Anniversary of the Assassination....so was this article

below.....for your information...and the other members...

Not all Spam comes via e-mail

http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/40th.htm

Seeing that you have been adding your link to some other

members Bios, as you see fit for their needed studies...

I thought perhaps along with a welcome to the Forum ,

it would be a nice idea to also provide you with one..

for your needed studies...as well....

The Kennedy Assassination for the Novice.

http://pages.prodigy.net/whiskey99/

Play fair:

B....

Ron:""In his book Harvey and Lee, John Armstrong quotes Robert Oswald as saying, "One of (Lee's) favorite programs was I Led Three Lives . . . In the early 1950's, Lee watched that show every week without fail. When I left home to join the Marines, he was still watching the reruns."

Armstrong points out that Robert left home to join the Marines on July 15, 1952, a year and two months before I Led Three Lives was first released (September 1953). Therefore Lee could not possibly have watched the program before Robert left.""

**********************************

As Armstrong asks, "why would Robert knowingly make false statements about his dead 'brother,' and for what purpose?" (p. 42).

Ron Ecker

This is the kind of thing that gets us into trouble. Armstrongs says "knowingly," as if he has any way of knowing Robert's thoughts. The more likely situation is that Robert remembered that Oswald watched the show, and incorrectly remembered him watching it during a certain time period. The "re-runs" he remembers Lee watching were probably the first runs. Sometimes we forget that most people don't use fact-checkers when they write their memoirs, or when being interviewed on their own life. It is the arrogance of the human species that we prefer to believe our memories are solid, when they are really more like putty.

Pat Speer

&&&&&&&&&&&

Hi :

John Armstrong ...

"Armstrong points out that Robert left home to join the Marines on July 15, 1952, a year and two months before I Led Three Lives was first released (September 1953). Therefore Lee could not possibly have watched the program before Robert left.""

Once Robert left home, in July 1952, he never lived nor visited home again, so he could not have seen LHO watching any reruns...Nor the program before as it had not made its premier on the telly as yet...

This is a Robert Oswald quote, from "Lee" 1967 "One of (Lee's) favorite programs was I Led Three Lives . . . In the early 1950's, Lee watched that show every week without fail. When I left home to join the Marines, he was still watching the reruns."

what reruns???

""When he left home to join the Marines.""....so this was not a case of later, after he was out of the Marines, and married, he clearly states before....he left home..July 52, a year and two months before the program

was first released in Sept. 53.., these were not reruns, couldn't possibley have been.... so it could not have been him incorrectly remembering during any other certain time period...

There are many statements that Robert made in his WC testimony about where they lived ,where they visited ,what schools they attended and on, and on....and when comparing his memories to John Pic's, the other brother, in the WC....there are so many differences it is attrocious....and I am not speaking of perhaps their testimony being changed or some deleted,I am speaking of, not the same, addresses they moved to or lived at, or when, not the same schools being named, that they attended etc... if you have never read nor compared, Roberts and John's WC testimonies, sometimes try to find a little time...you will find that these two brothers supposedly raised side by side, in all matters, do not have the same memories.....there is something very wrong with the scenario, of Robert Oswald and John Pic...

Also his book Lee was written in 1967....15 years after he left for the Marines, 4 years after the death of Lee, I don't know about you, but why would Robert even mention the TV series ?? Why would it stick in his mind, when it couldn't have happened..?.and he says it did,..... then was he making up stories, to perhaps make his book somewhat more colourful ?? because the TV program was not even on TV when he left..as he was so specific about it being "I Led Three Lives" or perhaps trying to associate Lee with the spy scenario, young nut, influenced by TV programs, got it into his head to be a spy, and of course he was nothing of the kind, just a mixed up kid, who shot a President all by himeslf, .......sure he did.. .as we know Robert also agrees and says his brother Lee, did kill the President ..?

"Over the years ,Robert Oswald would continue to provide damaging and misleading statements against Lee Oswald for public consumption. These stories are often taken at face value , based upon the supposed credibility of Robert Oswald..."" from "The Assassinations"

Thanks

B..

Thanks, Bernice. That is most curious. The implications of that are interesting indeed. It sure makes one ponder the early Dan Rather viewing of the Zapruder film and his comment about JFK being violently thrusted forward.

Could Carter have been pushing his buttons?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wonder if there is any connection from Rather to Ed Clark...?

Then again we do not know, what version of the Zapruder that Rather

actually saw, the early viewers mention about the terrible scenes of the

head shots, but neglect to address what else is seen...in relation to all

so, we are simply left ,imo ,with more questions...? As usual...

Thanks.....B

Hi James:

Dan Rather's wife , Jean Goebel.. was born in Smithville, Texas. Dan was born in Wharton,Texas 9/31/31..

Clifton ( Beau) Carter, was from Bryan, Texas.... when he was in the military, where Ed Clark met him under his command..

Contact Martin Shackleford, he is on the alts.his email ad is readily available on there just open a post.... of his....

He may be able to help you, this is a report from him on the 96 COPA meeting..

"" Informally, I was told that a former FBI official said upper level FBI officials believed LBJ was involved; Dan Rather was a boyhood friend of LBJ aide Cliff Carter (Dan Alcorn). ""

Dan Alcorn is a well connected Washington Lawyer..

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/03/MS/copa.html

B..

I'm not sure if this ties in with Haire's story but I seem to remember reading where the shoe salesman who IDed Oswald was brought out the back door after pointing him out to the cops. (Pat Speer)

Pat,

There is a real possibility that Johnny Brewer was the guy Haire saw and the explanation is as simple as that. My only question would be that Haire said he saw what he thought was the arrest of Oswald. By suggesting 'an arrest', one might conclude that the man was removed with some force as opposed to just being escorted calmly from the building.

That aside, it would be so much easier if it was Brewer. The conflicting reports post assassination are plentiful enough without adding this incident to them. 

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*********************************************

Hi James:

This may help in your search in this area, from John Armstrong, am posting the link as there is more info in the article re the man in the Texas Theatre and also some very enlightening research into the leading up to his arrest......there is also mention of the FBI report that the firing pin of LHOs revolver was bent, which means that he could not have shot Tippit..

B

Man in the Balcony, Man in the Alley

Johnny C. Brewer claimed that on the day of the assassination, he saw a man standing in the lobby of his shoe store at about 1:30 PM. He watched the man walk west on Jefferson and thought (Brewer says he is not positive) that he ducked into the Texas Theater. It was not until December 6th, two weeks after Harvey Oswald's arrest, that Brewer described the man he saw as wearing a brown shirt. He asked theater cashier Julia Postal if she had sold the man a ticket. Postal replied "she did not think so, but she had been listening to the radio and did not remember." She did remember, when testifying before the Warren Commission, that she sold 24 tickets that day.

The Texas Theater has a main floor level and a balcony. Upon entering the theater from the "outside doors," there are stairs leading to the balcony on the right. Straight ahead are a second set of "inside doors" leading to the concession stand and the main floor. It is possible to go directly to the balcony, without being seen by people at the concession stand, by climbing the stairs to the right. Brewer walked through the first and second set of double doors to the concession stand. He asked Butch Burroughs, who operated the concession stand, if he had seen the man come in. Burroughs said that he had been busy and did not notice. Brewer checked the darkened balcony but did not see the man he had followed. Brewer and Burroughs then checked and made sure the exits had not been opened. Brewer then went back to the box office and told Julia Postal he thought the man was still in the theater and to call the police.

Julia called the police. Police broadcasts at 1:45 PM reported "Have information a suspect just went into the Texas Theater . . . Supposed to be hiding in the balcony" (17H418). When the police arrived, they were told by a "young female," probably Julia Postal, that the man was in the balcony. The police who entered the front of the theater went to the balcony. They were questioning a young man when Officers Walker, McDonald and Hutson entered the rear of the theater. Hutson counted seven theater patrons on the main level. From the record, these seven would break down as follows:

2 Two boys (half way down center section searched by Walker & McDonald while Hutson looked on)

1 Oswald (3rd row from back-center section)

1 Jack Davis (right rear section-Oswald first sat next to him)

1 Unknown person (across the aisle from Davis-Oswald left his seat next to Davis and moved to a seat next to this person; Oswald then got up and walked into the theater lobby)

1 George Applin (6 rows from back-center section)

1 John Gibson (1st seat from the back on the far right side)

Oswald bought popcorn at 1:15 PM, walked to the main floor and reportedly took a seat next to a pregnant woman. Minutes before police arrived, this woman disappeared into the balcony and was never seen again. She was not one of the seven patrons counted by Officer Hutson.

Captain Westbrook and FBI Agent Barrett came into the theater from the rear entrance minutes later. Westbrook may have been looking for "Lee Harvey Oswald"-identified from the contents of the wallet he found at the scene of Tippit's murder.

From police broadcasts, the police were looking for a suspect wearing a white shirt, white jacket, with dark brown or black hair, and hiding in the balcony. But their attention quickly focused on a man wearing a brown shirt with medium brown hair, on the main floor. When this man was approached by Officer McDonald, he allegedly hit McDonald and then tried to fire his .38 revolver. Several police officers and theater patrons heard the "snap" of a pistol trying to fire. A cartridge was later removed from the .38 and found to have an indentation on the primer. An FBI report described the firing pin as "bent." The man in the brown shirt, Harvey Oswald, was subdued by Officers Hawkins, Hutson, Walker, Carroll and Hill, and then handcuffed. Captain Westbrook ordered the officers to "get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him." As he was taken out the front, Julia Postal heard an officer remark "We have our man on both counts." In an FBI report, we find the following:

this was the first time that she [Postal] had heard of Tippit's death, and one of the officers identified the man they arrested by calling out his name, "Oswald".… (Emphasis added. FBI report 2/29/64 by Arthur E. Carter.)

If the person who identified Oswald by name was Captain Westbrook, he could have obtained Oswald's name from identification-perhaps the Texas driver's license-in Lee Oswald's wallet found at the scene of the Tippit shooting. If someone other than Captain Westbrook identified Oswald by name, then someone in the Dallas Police had prior knowledge of Oswald. Identification of the policeman who made this statement might have aided in answering this question.

Harvey Oswald, the man wearing the "brown shirt," who probably bought a ticket from Julia Postal, bought popcorn from Butch Burroughs at 1:15 PM, sat next to Jack Davis before the main feature began at 1:20 PM, sat next to another identified patron, and then sat next to a pregnant woman (who disappeared), was brought out the front entrance and placed in a police car. En route to City Hall, Oswald kept repeating "Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested?" In light of the above, it was a good question to pose.

The police (Lt. Cunningham and Detective John B. Toney) did question a man in the balcony of the theater. Lt. Cunningham said "We were questioning a young man who was sitting on the stairs in the balcony when the manager told us the suspect was on the first floor." Detective Toney said "There was a young man sitting near the top of the stairs and we ascertained from manager on duty that this subject had been in the theater since about 12:05 PM." Notice that both Cunningham and Toney say they spoke to the "manager." Manager? We know from Postal's testimony that the owner of the theater, John Callahan, left for the day around 1:30 PM. The projectionist remained in the projection room during Oswald's arrest. Julia Postal remained outside at the box office. Burroughs was the only other theater employee and, according to his testimony, he "stayed at the door at the rear of the theater" (near the concession stand), "did not see any struggle" and then "remained at the concession stand" during Oswald's arrest. Burroughs never left the main level of the theater. Clearly, neither Postal, Burroughs, nor the projectionist (the only theater employees on duty) spoke to these officers either in the balcony or on the stairs in the balcony. Someone either identified himself as a theater "manager," or the officers mistook someone as the theater "manager," or these officers were lying about speaking to the "manager." The "manager" and the person whom they questioned in the balcony remain unidentified.

Oddly, and inconsistently, the police homicide report of Tippit's murder reads "suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson." Detective Stringfellow's report states "Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater." After (Harvey) Oswald's arrest Lt. E..L. Cunningham, Detective E.E. Taylor, Detective John Toney, and patrolman C.F. Bentley were directed to search all of the people in the balcony and obtain their names and addresses. Out of 24 (the number of tickets Postal said she sold) theater patrons that day, the Dallas Police provided the names of two-John Gibson and George Applin. If the names of the other 22 theater patrons were obtained, that list has disappeared. The identity of the man questioned by police in the balcony remains a mystery. He was not arrested and there is no police report, record of arrest, nor mention of any person other than Oswald. What happened to this man? What happened to the list of theater patrons?

Captain C.E. Talbert and some officers were questioning a boy in the alley while a pickup truck was sitting with the motor running a few yards away (24H242). Talbert was one of the few DPD officers at the Texas Theater who did not write a report of Oswald's arrest to Chief Curry (16 officers wrote such reports). Talbert's testimony before the Warren Commission runs for over 20 pages. At no time was he asked about his involvement at the Texas Theater or his questioning of a young man in the alley behind the theater.

Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors from the theater, walked out the rear of his shop shortly before 2:00 PM and saw police cars backed up to Madison Street. He watched as the police escorted a man from the rear of the Texas Theater wearing a "white pullover shirt." They placed the man in a squad car and drove away. He noticed the man was very "flush" in the face as though he had been in a struggle. Haire's description of this man-"white shirt" with a "flush face"-is consistent with witness statements of Tippit's killer before, during and after the shooting. For 25 years Mr. Haire and other witnesses thought they had witnessed the arrest of Oswald behind the Texas Theater in the alley. When told Oswald was brought out the front of the theater Haire asked "Then who was the person I saw police take out the rear of the theater, put in a police car, and drive off ?"

http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr198-jfk.html

Hi Tim:

""In late March of 1968, Hemming was in Los Angeles and was offered money to kill Martin Luther King, Jr., an offer he reported to the FBI. Within two weeks, King was murdered in Atlanta.""

I thought I had better point out this error in your article....

MLK was assassinated in Memphis....not Atlanta ..

B

Hi Alan:

      Long time, hope all is well....

The first photo that you referred to on the previous page was taken by William Allen ...of the Dallas Times Herald...

This one you have posted is Jim Murray's ( he was freelancing that day) seventh and last and the clock states 12.40....his first in the series was taken at 12.39...

The similarities of the Murray and Allen photos have caused confusion at times amongst the researchers..as they were taken at the same time....

Trask pages 497 to page 499.....

B 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Bernice,

only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ......

Thanks for the reference to POTP.

Although I love some of the information in that book, I still can't get over what a bad idea it was to replicate all those photo's at a size that impedes research.

Anyroad, now that we know that those Murray & Allen photo's were taken ten minutes after the shooting, it suggests that Haygood was either a) mistaken about the time he left the street for the TSBD or he's already left the street & the crowd we see are just continuing to stand in the same place after he left.

As far as the builder or "Hammerman" I mentioned in that Murray photo Bernice, he is not the black guy bent over but the one just looking to cross the street.

He is better seen of course, in Lee's print of that Allen photo but here is a close up of him from that Murray POTP print (Yes Richard, those pictures really are a "pain") /sigh.

I have problems with him being a builder because of his soft shoes & "ankle swinging" pants, not against the law but strange to my eye & also, if that's really a hammer(it's too hard for me to tell) & he's really a builder, then where is his tool belt or wide pocket to put his hammer into?

Looks odd to me. Casual labour at best imo, hence my reference to the floor laying team in the TSBD.

Now if this guy was the one who told Haygood where the shots came from....

Here's one for Lee.

If you look closely at the first close up I posted above I think you can see the bench there behind the wall, anyone else see it?

But Lee, you mentioned the guy at the corner of the wall in the hat, I don't think he was standing on anything like you are suggesting, that's a really short wall on the otherside & we could easilly see someone's waistline from Elm St if they were stood right next to the wall.

I think I might have a good candidate for who it is though.

He's a strange looking character to say the least.

Could this be a disguise or was he just a freaky dresser?

Take a look.

Fareeaky!

Alan

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***************

Hi Alan:

"only I could post a picture that includes a clock & then take a(wrong) guess as to what time is was taken. /sigh ...... ""

No we all do things such as this all the time, we miss much on the first glance, then say oops..

Yes, I also wish the photo's and Trask's book were some 10xs larger..and those in colours, were presented as so.

From what I see in the photos, the crowds appear to have moved on relatively

quickly in some areas......and from what there is in print regarding such, though there does appear to be those two groups,one on the road, the Haygood area, and standing on the hill re the closest pergola to the TSBD....also I believe I have read where the authoritys moved them along eventually, those that lingered...and many were told to report to the DPD to give their statements, also perhaps when some people began to be taken into custody, many moved along and left a lot quicker than they normally would have....

No Hammerman is not the custodian bent over, I am well aware of, as you call him

"Hammerman" ,much time in the past has been spent on who he was, and his tool, in his hand or whatever..he more than likely was as you say just one of the workmen..in the area. He could have worked in a hardware store or been working on the TSBD new floor, for all we know. I think by this time, whomever the guilty were were long gone...I really cannot see them hanging around waiting to be arrested..but that is JMO..

I like the freaky guy, what is it.??

Thanks for the come back..B.....

Robin: "Hi Bernice.

Great information, thanks.

I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image.

I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination."

*********************

Hi Robin:

Here is the photo it is Murray's first , the clock states 12.39 , also shows the temperature as being 66 degrees in others......the clock turns up dark when posting on the web....they are all available in "POTP" and also "That Day In Dallas" and very clear...seeing this is 9 minutes after,I perhaps would not count on the windows being as they were at the time of the shooting....some may have been shut while the DPD and or opened others...but it is always good to look...and check..

B....

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Thanks Bernice.

Yes that image appears to be the same as the one i posted in my thread (Furrows in the grass)

Thanks again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

************************

Hi Robin:

I checked and it was a cropped copy that Lee posted but on another Forum..

sorry for the confusion,

Thanks.....B

""Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up.

His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward.

Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD.""

Alan

***************

Alan:

In another of Murray's the man bending over can been seen standing, he is of a dark complextion and is dressed as one of the custodians...

BTW: Murray was continually all over Dealey for a long period of time after the assn he seems to have gotten an amazing collection of photographs....

***************

Larry :

""I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers

searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes

after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker

and he was by the stairs and elevators.

One other option for the fifth floor were the three men there who stated

they ran to the west side of the 5th floor to watch what was happeing

on the knoll/fence.

Sort of strange behavior given their later statements about being

aware of a shooter above them on the sixth floor....common sense

would suggest going into hiding....not rushing to the far end of the

building and possibly being seen by the exiting gunman.

In any event, if anything - given their remarks - they would have been

opening windows on the west end of the fifth floor for a better view.

P.S. one time reference for when officers might have been first opening

windows is in POTP - it shows a senior DPD officer leaning out a window

and yelling down that they have found something in the "snipers nest"

area just to his left.""

*********

Hi Larry:

In reply to your P.S:

This again is a Jim Murray photo....it was taken shortly

after 1 pm..and shows "Dallas Police Sgt.Gerry Hill...leaning out of a sixth floor window ,pointing to the corner window where the sniper location and spent shell

casings had been found moments before....."That Day In Dallas"...

Larry.....""I'm pretty sure that some checking will show there were no officers

searching or at the windows on the fifth or sixth floors up to ten minutes

after the shooting. The only officer that far up the building was Baker

and he was by the stairs and elevators.""

Recall Tom Alyea...working for WFAA...an affiliate of ABC....He was on his way back from being in Fort Worth, they were on Commerce St.....and listening to to the parade coverage on the radio when they heard the WFAA announcer break in that shots had been fired at the Presidential motorcade...he jumped out of the car and starting running....he began filming as he ran across Main..he saw no police ,people were running towards the railroad tracks , and others towards the monument, ( pegola) he figured nothing going on and ran up Elm and Houston...and saw a little activity at the intersection....he noticed several cops by now and one man looking up at the TSBD....He filmed the entrance as six or seven plainclothesmen rushed in through the TSBD doors..and he followed unchallenged with Dallas M.N. Kent Biffle right behind him....They got in and were locked in....immediately...this was between 12.34 and 12.36 ..they heard a fellow say..."Shut the door! Lock it ! ... no one in and no one out.."

He states various officers and plainclothesmen were in the TSBD..looking for a culprit or evidence...The search was unco-ordinated as they went scattering and scurrying amongst the floors....this was before the large scale uniformed police response to the police dispatch orders....Dep Luke Mooney had made a cursory exam of the second floor , then took the stairs up meeting other officers coming down. He stopped at the 6 th floor criss-crossing it and checking the fire escape ...then went up to the seventh floor,looking there with officers Webster and Vickery..They peered there into the stairway to the attic but it was pitched black and they decided to wait for flood lights ( which the Fire Dept brought, they also brought portable lights)..

Mooney then went back down to the 6 th floor...and all this time Alyea was running around following them and filming....he went down and followed Mooney ahead of Vickery and Webster...They came down right behind him to the 6th...Alyea stated in an interview in 64....He thought there was going to be a gunfight....First we went to the fifth floor,no one was sure of where the shots had come from..they then went to the 6th and then the 7th....He filmed all ,looking for a suspect..the men crawled

over and between huge piles of boxes..They climbed up into ceiling ducts and similar places where a man might hide...He states the mood was so tense that, if someone had dropped a book ,he was sure that 15 bullets would have been shot in that direction.....Sheriff Bill Decker arrived about 12.58 from the Trade Mart..he remained outside while the Police officials went in,and attempting to tighten up the situation he then ordered it sealed....Fritz and his companions "... took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and secured the building to see if we could find him.."...thinking the culprit could possibley be still inside....

It was shortly after that ...that Mooney, having left and then come back a second time??...searched the 6 th floor again , he stated.."I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building and I saw these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there, and I squeezed between two ..and the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there....that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up ,looked to be a rest for the weapon."...Mooney then called out, they came running ...Around 3.00 pm or so knowing he was the only news cameraman present he knew he needed film and also to get out what he had...On finding a phone within the building he called WFAA and requested a fresh can of film for an exposed....Photographer Ron Reiland arrived , but he could not get in...he signaled to him to throw the new film to him and he threw the exposed to Ron...he took off and Officer watching coud not leave his post to stop him...Aylea shot 500 feet of film that day....He then managed to get out of the building around 3.15pm...The Crime scene crew stayed into the evening...

Information..."POTP"..."That Day In Dallas" and Alyea..of course..

B

Robin: "Hi Bernice.

Great information, thanks.

I posted the image of the cop pointing to the TSBD it would be interesting to see the uncropped version of that image.

I am interested in the "clock" and the windows on the 5th and 6th floors at the time of the assassination."

*********************

Hi Robin:

Here is the photo it is Murray's first , the clock states 12.39 , also shows the temperature as being 66 degrees in others......the clock turns up dark when posting on the web....they are all available in "POTP" and also "That Day In Dallas" and very clear...seeing this is 9 minutes after,I perhaps would not count on the windows being as they were at the time of the shooting....some may have been shut while the DPD and or opened others...but it is always good to look...and check..

B....

Hi Lee:

""I agree with your observation concerning the man in the foreground. Why is this man permitted to be picking around in the grass in an area that appears to be secured? I thought I had read someplace, as relates to the arrival of the 'mystery man' [whom, IMO has never been properly identified - looks more like EH Hunt to me than the old tramp] that the area where the object that appeared to be a .45 caliber round was secured and guarded until it was removed.""

Re the above information...for your info.....recall the Murray photo that you posted with the officer pointing to the TSBD window....well that photo has been cropped, I have not got access as I am on the lap.....but the clock has been cropped off the top and the clock states 12.39...

These photos of Murray and Allen indicate interest on part of the officers at this spot three feet to the west of the rectanglular concrete frame surrounding the manhole....

In the grass....in Dec. 63...New Republic by Richard Dudman...in his article he stated that a police inspector had told him,that upon entering the area at the side of the street where the President had been shot ,they had"....found another bullet in the grass."....

Officer Foster re WC....stated that they "found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.."..at the concrete corner of the manhole cover and richocheted out." ...

An examination of the original Murray negatives show an area of turf darker than the surrounding grass...The Murray photo shows no identifiable bullet..when asked 33 years later, Murray stated.." At the time I was photographing ,my honest opinion, was that it looked like there had been heel marks and something like a spike heel had come out of the dirt..and created a little mound of damp earth...I certainly didn't see any bullets...the later speculation , and I'm willing to believe it, is that the mound was brain matter from Kennedy's skull..It could well have been tissue. It was dark...muddy color...nothing to suggest brains or blood." The photos are too inconclusive to be able to tell us what if anything was picked up off of the ground..

The unknown man dressed in the suit has been tentatively identified by some recent researchers as Agent Robert M.Barrett...

Trask....The Free-Lancer chapter....

Here's an interesting photo, which I would really like to timestamp - I'm sure you have seen it before, and there's quite a lot to look at. 

- There's what appear to be 3 individuals behind the fence at left. 

- 'Hammerman' is in the foreground.  He was working nearby and came over to see what was going on - decided to carry his hammer with him in case there was something to nail I guess. 

- Why are the people gathered in the street at that location?  Is there something in the street? 

- In the background, to our right, at the edge of the wall, we have what appears to be 2 individuals [using the shadow  ) - a man and a woman.  Maybe of no consequence [save for his baggy pants which look like the man in the red shirt who was standing on the stairs earlier], but they seem to be in fairly close proximity to the man standing behind the wall, who has on an interesting hat. 

- If you focus in on him, is there more than one person?  Is the man with the hat standing behind someone?  Someone with a camera?

- The small crowd in the background is interesting - but again, I don't know that it has any bearing.  One man can be seen pointing towards the TSBD.  Is he pointing at something he is seeing at the time the photo was taken?

- The fenceline, when enhanced, appears crooked.  Why is that? 

- At the corner of the fence there appears to be an object of some kind.  Is it a person?  What would a person be doing sitting in the grass there?

Many questions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Lee,

I believe at least one witness told us that a crowd started to gather around the policeman's motorcycle on Elm St(sorry I cannot pinpoint the source atm).

For some reason I had a good idea that it was Haygood's cycle this witness was talking about.

If you look at Haygood's testimony, he mentions that after getting back to his bike that people came up to him & started talking.

So I believe this may well be what we are seeing here.

In the same exchange with Belin;

Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.

Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/haygood.htm

So I would say somewhere around 4-6 mins after the shooting for that photo.

I think this one was taken just seconds before.

Is that our hammerman looking to cross the street?

Only my opinion but, that guy only fits the description of a builder from the waist up.

His pants & shoes remind me of someone you'd see on a hospital ward.

Maybe he was one of the guys helping to lay the plywood flooring in the TSBD?

Good stuff.

Big thankyou for the "Marguerite on the knoll" photo, where's it from?

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

********

Hi Alan:

Long time, hope all is well....

The first photo that you referred to on the previous page was taken by William Allen ...of the Dallas Times Herald...

This one you have posted is Jim Murray's ( he was freelancing that day) seventh and last and the clock states 12.40....his first in the series was taken at 12.39...

The similarities of the Murray and Allen photos have caused confusion at times amongst the researchers..as they were taken at the same time....

Trask pages 497 to page 499.....

B

* How do you get your rope loose from the top of the elevator shaft, when you're the last man down? I gather a rope was never found hanging in the shaft, or was there?

* What if the elevators were indeed on the 5th floor (as per Truly). The three African Americans were on the 5th floor and were observing the motorcade driving by, and were apparently the last to use at least one of the elevators, and according to eye witnesses the shots were fired from the 6th floor and therefore the "team" was on the 6th floor, how do you get past the elevators that are on the 5th? Is the shaft wide enough to sneak by?

From A.J. Weberman's Nodule 17:

HEMMING told this researcher: " . . . The elevator was locked on the seventh floor. It could be locked in position up there in the old days, it could be put in a safety position . . . To get off at the sixth floor, and we presume most of the shooting was done from the sixth floor, you run the elevator to the seventh floor. The torsion bar in the bottom is where you put your snap links in. Your ropes are all bundled up. All you have to do is raise the door, it doesn't have a safety on it, and slide up the cargo door and pull your string. Your ropes drop down to the bottom of the elevator shaft. It takes one second to do it. You're going with a double line so you can pull it through. You leave it in the bottom of the elevator shaft. . . . No one ever checked the bottom of the shaft.”

http://www.ajweberman.com/nodules/nodule17.htm

Ron

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*****************

Hi Ron:

""HEMMING told this researcher: " . . . The elevator was locked on the seventh floor..""

The elevator only went to the sixth floor...?....there is much

more on this on the web.....

""The building was built in 1903 and is owned by the D. Harold Byrd

Associates. The school depository firm moved in in 1960 and took

a 15 year-lease. It was previously occupied by a wholesale grocery

firm. Cason said they remodled most of the building, except the

sixth floor where Oswald allegedly stalked his victim. On the first

floor is the general shipping area and the second is the company's

administrative offices. The third and fourth floors are occupied by

publishers' manufacturing representatives. The fifth floor and

basement are used for filling book orders. Cason said the sixth

floor is seldom used. He said an employe might go up there two or

three times a week. There are two freight elevators that go to the

sixth floor, but a passenger elevator only reaches the fourth floor.""

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/08-Parks-36...s/first.reports

The Couch film indicates it took Baker no longer than 25 seconds to reach the front door.

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id171.htm

Lee:

Jack is correct it is not Brehm, it is a construction worker....If you check

Brehm's clothing in other photos, it is not him...he is wearing a zippered up jacket ..and dark pants...and went no where without his five year old son, Joe..

This is an Allen photo, he and Murray were there during the aftermath..

Murray took seven photos, his last shows the clock at 12.39pm, in one of the photos that shows the FBI picking up the said bullet at the sewer hit site, along with the Dectective and DPD...in this particular photo you also see this man,

starting to walk across the street, this was Murray's last photo, then Allen took

the one you have shown....with him approaching the South side....

See "POTP" Trask page 499..

B

It's in the Forum section.

Ah.

If I remember right, it's against their forum rules to post anything said there anywhere else.

Too bad.

Steve Thomas

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are no restrictions about posting anything said there pertaining to the assassination elsewhere if it is the authors own work .As long as it is the authors own work he or she has the right to distribute his or her own work freely.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*****************************

Hi Duncan :

Some may be interested in this from Livingstone....from one of his new books....

Two Different Versions of the Zapruder Film

From:

Harrison E.Livingstone : "The Radical Right and the Murder of John F Kennedy".

"A film of the assassination was created for public consumption as a propoganda film. That film is known as the Zapruder film, named after Abraham Zapruder -----one of the amateur camera persons in Dealey Plaza who filmed portions of the assassination.

...The film was altered in haste ,and later further alterations were made as needed upon discovery of problems with the films...... Zapruder points out in his testimony to the Warren Commission that he was concerned about altered frames as a book of pictures ostensibly from his film were shown to him.."

Warren Commission:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/zapruder.htm

Shaw Trial:

1: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony...ruder_shaw1.htm

2: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony...ruder_shaw2.htm

"We sure would like to know how his testimony was manipulated or excised..

A major edit of the film occurs at 132 in the transition from frame 133. One half-block of the motorcade was removed as the limousine rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm . We do not see this , and the portion is gone that would have shown how the shots began and the fact that the limo stopped. A similar phenomena occurs in at least six other films where the same journey of the limo has been removed."

Zapruder Film:

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/

"My investigation has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Zapruder never stopped his camera at that point , as he repeatedly told people , and that the film was cut and optically reframed so that there is no splice. Optical reframing is the method used when a film receives " special effects" or is altered. As is explained in my book on the film. "The Hoax of the Century", there are no flash frames or evidence of "first frame over exposure" at Z-133, the transition from the three motorcycles leading the motorcade to the limousine, and it is a jump cut. I have interviewed a leading film expert in the world as well as the inventors of the camera who were trying to prevent such flash frames, and it is a certainty that the camera always produced them when it was stopped and then restarted .We do not see them at this crucial transition from one scene to another in the film.

It is reasonable that there was another person operating a camera close by Zapruder with essentially the same perspective, perhaps in the "pill box" just behind Zapruder in the pergola. This film was the one that was flown to Kodak in Rochester N.Y, as testimony indicates ,altered, and Zapruder's film disappeared later on. During the massive shell game that was played with Zapruder's film before it was developed in Dallas. the other film was already in the air. " snip

Two Different Filmed Versions of the Assassination:

" The Zapruder film shows events not present in other films. For instance, Clint Hill testified:

Warren Commission:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm

Original Report:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/sa-hill.htm

that he ran after the limousine when the shots began, and catching hold of the handle on the rear of the car, he crawled on his knees onto the trunk and grabbed at Jacqueline Kennedy ,who had crawled out on the trunk presumably to retrieve a portion of her husband's head. The Nix film shows him with his arms around her placing her in the back seat.

Nix Film:

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/

He stated that he saw the back of the president's head lying in the back seat.

2H 141, 6H 290 :HSCA Report 235

"" The rear portion of his head was lying in the rear seat of the car.His brain was exposed ....There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head...snip..

She turned to me and I grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there....""

" We do not see Hill put his arms around Mrs. Kennedy in the Zapruder film, but instead see him only reach towards her outstretched hand.At the moment their fingers seem to almost ,touch. Mrs. Kennedy turns and gets back into her seat without his help .One might conclude the film was altered before Hill testified in 1964. Others might think that Hill is mistaken ,but not when the films show entirely different scenes. Again, the weight of evidence takes into account the pattern in all of the instances of conflict we see here..

There may be more films in conflict with the ones we have seen at this point, and the film taken by Beverly Oliver ,as yet not see by anyone outside the government ,apparently shows entirely different events. This film was used by the FBI to reconstruct the crime in their headquarters in Washington .Readers are referred to the exposition of the facts from the FBI report and exhibit in my "Killing Kennedy and the Hoax of the Century." Many people have insisted that the limousine stopped or slowed way down. This is not what we see in the films....."....

B..

""I believe the Hester's are still alive - see if they will tell you if it was Zapruder and Sitzman they saw that day and spent about 10 minutes with them immediately following the assassination or would that not be productive for you to do at this time.""

Bill:

Charles Hester died during the 70's.....Beatrice remarried, and moved to

another town, married name unknown...There has been no luck in trying to find her.

The Loonie Forum or yours known as LaLaLand Forum, are all forums, and all are very different..and should be...as not all think alike...amazing isn't it ,that thought......and all forums are given nick names..it seems....nit picking is not productive... B

Thanks, Bernice. Very interesting.

I must say that the phoney SS agent(s) is one of the more interesting aspects of this. My memory is slowly failing me of late, but didn't someone identify Bernard Barker as one who was carrying such false identification?

James

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Yes interesting character to say the least, seems to have been involved within many areas over the years. Re: slowly failing memory, gee I aren't we are all the same

It was Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman who ran up to the fence atop

the knoll after the shooting of the President that met as I believe others did a man carrying SS ID..Later he did identify this man as being Barker who was a CIA

asset... So he was a possible witness or lookout or handler ,whatever.?? he also worked with Ferrie, E.Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis ,Gen.Cabell and Nixon in the planning of the BOP..He then went on to lead the Watergate burglers, this man was very involved....have read he was also at one time associated with the Miami Mob, Trafficante and such.

Nice chatting.....B

Several witnesses said that Greer stopped the car after the first shot was fired. This included Jean Hill, who was the closest witness to the car when Kennedy was hot: According to Hill "the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out". James Chaney (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists) - stated that the limousine "after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped." Mary Woodward, a journalist with the Dallas Morning News wrote: "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt... after the first shot". (John Simkin)

Something I have never been able to understand is if you watch the Zapruder film, the limo continues with momentum through the attack. I remember reading somewhere that the vehicle speed was approximately 11 MPH. So, how does Clint Hill manage to jump off the following vehicle and actually catch the limo in such a short space if the limo didn't slow considerably which the Z film doesn't show?

Close examination of the film shows that Hill was at the back of the limo at approximately the time of the head shot. So, if he reacts to the first shot of which no one else seems to have, he has about 6 seconds to leap off the vehicle and to sprint toward the limo which hasn't appeared to have considerably slowed.

For me, that doesn't quite add up. Am I missing something?

Below is the article by Mary Woodward.

James

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************************************************

Hi James:

I have found this is my files, thought you may be interested, from

Vince Palamara 1999...the links do not work correctly any longer as I

think the sites are perhaps long gone....

BREAKDOWN OF SECRET SERVICE HIERARCHY/ INFRASTRUCTURE

THE TOP TREASURY OFFICIALS:

1) C. DOUGLAS DILLON- Sec of the Treasury (former OSS) : on a Cabinet

plane bound for Japan via Hawaii with *

2) ASST. SEC. ROBERT A. WALLACE- with Rowley at a luncheon in D.C.;

denied dead agent reports;

3) ACTING SEC. G. d’ANDELOT BELIN- stepped in in Dillon’s absence

1963-1964 (related to David?);

4) [uNDERSEC. HENRY “JOE” H. FOWLER- replaced Dillon in Jan. 1965]

THE PRESS SECRETARIES:

1) *PRESS SECRETARY PIERRE SALINGER- code book missing from plane;

according to Pierre, only missed “two or three” trips (almost definitely

only one: Texas); extremely knowledgeable about motorcade planning/

security- worked with Secret Service on all prior advance work… except

for the Texas trip;

2) ASST. PRESS SEC. (#2) ANDREW HATCHER- in D.C. inactive (allegedly

because Hatcher was African-American, but a member of JFK's Secret

Service detail, Robert Faison, was also African-American and was with

President Kennedy throughout the Texas trip);

3) ASST. PRESS SEC. (#3) MALCOLM KILDUFF- first trip on his own:

official debut; essentially a non-player out of the loop;

THE CHIEF’S OFFICE:

1) CHIEF JAMES J. ROWLEY- with Wallace^;

2) DEPUTY CHIEF PAUL J. PATERNI- member of OSS during WWII- worked with

James Angleton and Ray Rocca (liaison to WC); involved in limousine

inspection with Boring, beating Rowley and Kellerman---and the FBI--- to

the punch (skull particles, bullet fragments, vehicle damage/

windshield); involved in LHO income tax check investigation right after

assassination; checked on CIA connections of suspects Mosley and Homer

Echevarria for the Chicago field office- matter was summarily dropped by

a call from headquarters telling the field office agents who spoke to

Paterni to send all memos, files, and notebooks to D.C. and not to

discuss the case with anyone!; Thomas Kelley- liaison to WC: assigned by

Paterni to go to Dallas and speak to LHO;

3) DEPUTY CHIEF EDWARD WILDY- totally out of the loop;..

THE TOP THREE AGENTS OF THE WHITE HOUSE DETAIL (THE SAIC’S OFFICE):

1) SAIC GERALD A. BEHN- in D.C. inactive: first full vacation in three

years under JFK;

2) ASAIC (#2) FLOYD M. BORING- in D.C. at home but IN CHARGE OF PLANNING

THE TEXAS TRIP [bishop, 1988 edition, p. 558; Truman Library Oral

History, p.63- on all the advance work…assigned to all the advance work;

JFK Library Oral History;interviews with Sam Kinney and Floyd Boring

1993-1994]; involved in limo inspection with Paterni, Trade Mart

decision, PRS checks, giving Lawson the Dallas assignment, etc.-

http://www.njmetronet.com/palamara/boring.html

3) ASAIC (#3) ROY H. KELLERMAN- First major trip on his own in a

supervisory capacity without either Behn OR Boring;

THE WHD ADVANCE AGENTS:

1) WINSTON G. LAWSON (LEAD CAR)- WHD advance agent (and former CIC

agent---still with the Former Intelligence Officers Association!): only

did advance work for a short time before Dallas;

2) DAVID B. GRANT (TRADE MART)- Lawson’s oft-forgotten partner from

11/13-11/22/63; physically joined Lawson in Dallas 11/18/63 from Florida

trip (manned by ASAIC Boring in place of Behn); Boring’s right hand man

for Chicago, Florida, and Texas advances;

THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE ADVANCE MEN:

1) JERRY BRUNO- CHIEF DNC ADVANCE MAN: early organizer but not in

Dallas---adamantly against Trade Mart/ choice of route (out of the

loop);

2) MARTY UNDERWOOD- DNC ADVANCE MAN for Houston and Austin---adamantly

against choice of route. Heard rumors of impending

assassination---received confirmation of plot from CIA Officer Win Scott

shortly after assassination (out of the loop)!;

3) JACK PUTERBAUGH- DNC ADVANCE MAN for Dallas: IN PILOT CAR WITH LT.

COL GEORGE WHITMEYER- taught Army Intelligence, not originally scheduled

to be in motorcade. As for Puterbaugh himself, he denied any involvement

in the Tade mart decision he was subsequently “blamed” for. He is often

blamed for the motorcade route change, as well…

THE SHIFT LEADERS OF THE WHD (SAIC ASSISTANTS):

1) ATSAIC EMORY P. ROBERTS – in command of FOLLOW-UP CAR in Dallas:

ordered agent Henry J. Rybka back from rear of limo at Love Field,

ordered agents not to move after first shot on Elm Street, recalled

agent John Ready during/ shortly after one of the (head) shots. Usurps

Kellerman’s authority at Parkland Hospital;

2) ATSAIC STEWART G. STOUT, JR.- stationed at the TRADE MART (out of the

loop);

3) ATSAIC ARTHUR L. GODFREY- stationed in AUSTIN (also out of the loop);

THE V.P./ LBJ DETAIL:

1) SAIC OF LBJ DETAIL H. STUART KNIGHT- in D.C. inactive- transfer to

become effective 11/25/63 (out of the loop);

2) ASAIC (#2) RUFUS W. YOUNGBLOOD- LBJ’s car: listens to walkie-talkie

w/ LBJ---both Dave Powers & Ralph Yarborough denied that Youngblood ever

vaulted over the seat the way LBJ claimed;

MISC.:

1) PRS AGENT GLENN A. BENNETT- temporarily assigned to WHD: why did he

ride in the follow-up car (he was an administrator)---to monitor threat

subjects?-

http://www.mindcushion.com/jfk/anatomythreat.html

2) WILLIAM R. GREER- LIMO: slows limo, looks back at JFK twice, disobeys

Kellerman, etc.;

3) JOHN D. READY- neutralized by Roberts;

4) CLINTON J. HILL (ASSIGNED TO JACKIE)- disobeys Boring and Roberts by

riding on rear of limo four times before Elm St. AND by lunging for rear

of limo ON Elm Street;

PART TWO: FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC TRIPS INVOLVING MOTORCADES 1961-1963:

NORMAL SECURITY IN COMPARISON TO DALLAS-

1) agents on / near limo in Dealey Plaza/ Elm Street before/ during

shooting (up to/ inc. 11/18/63; Boring tells agents not to mount rear of

limo between 11/19 and 11/21, according to Clint Hill)- blamed on JFK!;

2) motorcycles- from upwards of 6 flanking units down to a measely 4

non-flanking units (11/18-11/22 Fort Worth; according to DPD, this

occure at the last minute: morning of 11/22+ meeting of 11/21 via SS/

Grant)- blamed on JFK!;

3) The Secret Service was knowledgable about prior/ existing threats of

11/2 [Chicago], 11/9 [Milteer/ Miami], and 11/18 [Tampa/ Miami]: Boring,

Grant, Bolden, Martineau, Kinney, etc. Remember PRS agent Bennett’s

mysterious placement in follow-up car on 11/22/63;

4) Protective Research Section (PRS): ZERO threats found for Dallas

trip, despite three known checks, Stevenson incident, Wanted for Treason

photos, and warnings to JFK: Senator William Fulbright, DNC advanceman

Marty Underwood, San Antonio Congressman Henry Gonzalez, etc.;

5) Deleted squad car (meeting of 11/21 between DPD and Secret Service/

Grant)

6) Motorcade route: two dangerous turns (90 and 120 degrees) involving

slow speeds in a warehouse district (TSBD)- changed between 11/18 and

11/19 in spite of at least two better/ alternate routes; driver- no

independent knowledge: had to follow the lead car;

7) Publication of route- by (and denied by) the Secret

Service---accomplished with the help of Betty Forsling Harris, Bill

Moyers, and “the agent in charge of the Dallas trip”!;

8) Vehicles out of original, numerical order- changed 11/22 at Love

Field;

9) Media (press busses), photographers (always in front- cancelled at

the last minute at Love Field), Cecil Stoughton ( rode near rear of

limo/ in follow-up car July to November 21, 1963), Godfrey McHugh, and

Ted Clifton- moved away from JFK/ limousine, against prior protocal /

motorcades. DMN photographer Tom Dillard. While confirming this last

minute cancellation, said this brought the press/ photographers “totally

out of the picture”!;

10) Omissions: Behn, Salinger (Hatcher), Knight, Bruno [Rowley, Dillon];

11) Trade Mart (VS. WOMEN’S BUILDING)- determined speed of cars,

motorcade route choices, and security of building---Secret Service had a

hand in this whole affair;

12) Sheriff Bill Decker (lead car)- order 11/22 not to participate…via a

call from D.C.?

13) Overpass crowded 11/22 in Dealey Plaza, against protocal;

14) Windows not watched 11/22, despite Lawson’s “usual instructions” to

do so;

15) ATSAIC Roberts: recall of SA Rybka at Love Field; recall of SA Ready

in the Plaza (SA Hill delay); order not to move; usurps Kellerman's

power at Parkland/ switch of allegiance;

16) Ambulances on standby- gone inc. “epileptic seizure” incident

12:25---five minutes before murder of JFK. Rike said his ambulance was

called to the Dealey Plaza area on several false alarms several days and

weeks before 11/22/63!;

17) No bubbletop- a protective device (shielded JFK via sun glare,

possible deflection, psychological deterrent)---often on car in partial

form, as well (just the rear piece, for example). Strange, multiple

responsibility [Harris, Lawson, Kellerman, Sorrels, O’Donnell, etc.];

ultimately, blamed on JFK (although it was Kinney’s sole/ regretted

decision)!;

18) JFK/LBJ: in same city in slow, open vehicles in close proximity to

each other---unique and quite a “no-no”;

19) Umbrella man- presence/ actions not noted about, written or oral

(cause for delay, confusion? Signal?). SS manual states that this is one

of many things to watch for!;

20) Special ordinance of 11/18 with DPD: permitted action against unruly

persons becoming involved with peaceful picketing---was this a loophole

designed to give plotters/ SS/ DPD some flexiblity to do certain things,

and not to do other things, regarding security?;

21) Greer: slows limo, 2 looks back, disobeys Kellerman; leads race to

Parkland ( despite contradictory radio transmissions of SS);

22) Marina captivity by SS;

23) Autopsy related: body, x-rays, photos, skull fragments, bullet

fragments---SS firmly in control of these crucial items of evidence;

24) CE399: in SS possession

25) Limo: in SS possession---soon after rebuilt, destroying moving crime

scene/ evidence;

26) “dead” agent---many media outlets reported this as fact, at

different times and in different ways (inc. location);

27) “SS” agents---phoney or REAL agents in the plaza;

28) drinking incident 11/21-11/22: inc. four agents who rode in the

follow-up car: Hill, Ready, Bennett, and Landis!;

Vince Palamara 4/11/99

Hi Ter:

I don't know what links you are asking about that I referred to..? I only posted that one site, and it has links at the bottom of the page..that relates to both sides if I recall correctly.... .If interested go to Google, you shall be there for many hours...Here is one that shows his photo and has a selection of documents...and articles you may be interested in...it may have been posted already??

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/

He has not been deported as it takes a very long time, years it seems for that process to be completed here, not like in many other countrys where people are simply picked up and put on an airlines a few weeks, days or hours whatever and the process is completed...rather quickly....at times...

I agree that should be done, and then whatever the German Gov. has in the way of proceedings will be completed and perhaps all can be concluded...and.. ended.

I understand his right to freedom of speech, as I recognize that as a right of all....though even in your country, in the States,there have been many cases, and proceedings taken upon people who are also using that right to perhaps bend and or break your laws, much on Google in that regard...

But I also see what appears to me, that when I also use that same Freedom of Speech, and state my opinion....I am labeled by some, they seem not to practice what they seem to want to preach, as their FOS and right to disagree with mine is to be accepted....and at the same time stand up for his right to such......but also put down mine and label me as such and such when I state my opinion......Confusing...... yes....wrong, well I think so, for one....

But then again we see every day where people say one thing in an email and another on an open Forum, about so and so, or whatever , so why should I be confused.....

Later Ter......B