Ray Mitcham

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Not so masterful.  Did you see Lovelady's flat head?  But, knowing you and your confreres you'll have some kind of explanation for that that will challenge someone's credibility.

Lovelady in that shirt is disinformation to show that he was really Doorway Man in Altgens 6.  The Police Station film seems to be the same.  After looking at both I count them as fraudulent.  Doorway Man in Altgens 6 is someone who has a Lovelady face mask applied to the figure.  The figure itself is a badly cut out figure from elsewhere.  Just look at the left shoulder which has a good portion of it missing.  Except for the face mask Lovelady and Doorway man has nothing in common.

Lovelady is leaning out so he could follow the parade down Elm Street. His shoulder isn't missing he is leaning.

18 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Maybe, but still he said temple. If you read this whole thread, there is a couple of doctors and one priest that mention the left temple.

Agreed, Tony, but as he was describing it, he said the President was directly along side them when the shot from behind hit the President in the temple. JFK would have had to have been turning almost full circle rearwards to his right, for it to have hit him in the left temple. However, I don't dispute that there may have been wound in JFK's left temple.

"

In the Altgens5 photo, John, why the two red question marks?

Edgar Smith is under the red arrow on the extreme left of the photo.

All the above try to prove an imaginary fourth cop. 

What did Longfellow write say ""Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad"?

It gets even funnier

Quote by John Butler

"This implies that the shadowed sides of the building are artificial.  Why with this overhead photo taken at a later time?  The TSBD looks like its southeast corner is sitting directly in the middle of Houston Street. That's probably an illusion."

Only in your mind, John. The reason that the TSBD "looks like its southeast corner is sitting directly in the middle of Houston Street" is because of the angle the photograph was taken from above. The camera was not directly over the TSBD. (It's a wonder you haven't said that the TSBD must be  falling over because the corners aren't vertical." LOL)

What does "Why with this overhead photo taken at a later time" mean?

Your fascination with imaginary "painted in shadows" is making you look rather silly. 

Yep Ray again,John. I thought I was on your ignore list, but glad to be back to show again that you still don't understand evidence.

"Quote by Butler

"Liebeler position 1 is on Elm Street across from the middle of the building more toward the southwest corner of the TSBD and not the SE corner according to WC Exhibit 354.  Position 9 according to WC Exhibit 354 is on Elm directly appears to be closer to the southeast corner of the TSBD and not as much in the middle of Houston Street.."

Rubbish. Position one of 354 is across the short Elm Street in front of the entrance to the TSBD, which is at the South East end of the TSBD where Barnett said he was standing. And position 9 is slap in the middle of  the junction, where a cop would go to stop the traffic. 

Another quote

"WC Exhibit 354 shows a large gap between Houston Street and the Dal-Tex and the Court Records Building.  That gap maybe the side of the building but, shadowed.  If that is a shadowed side to the two buildings, then what is causing the shadow when the building should be in broad daylight."

Strange to say it is the sun, John. You know that bright object in the sky? You seem to always have great difficulty with shadows. There are numerous other buildings, as well as structures on the roof of the Court Records Building which show the same type of shadows. The South face of the CRB is in bright sunshine, as is the south face of the Dal Tex,. and the South Face of the TSBD. Maybe you can't see that.  

Learn to read a photo, John, it will help you no end.

As for your imaginary fourth cop, you do get some crazy ideas into your head. I look forward to your increasingly daft attempted justifications. 

Probably, because he was safely holding his toddler son with his right hand, and the interviewer was holding the microphone close to his right arm, Tony.

Don't know here John Butler gets his four officers at the junction of Houston and Elm, as Barnett says that just three officers were stationed there, not four.

"Well there were three of us assigned to that one corner.. J.D.Smith and another officer named Smith. I don't know his initials. E.L. I believe."

snip

"Barnett said as the Presidential motorcade turned from Main Street to Houston Street and came within his view, he stepped from his position near the south east corner of the Texas school book depository Building, toward the middle of Elm Street and held the Elm Street traffic back. After the motorcade had passed and made a left hand turn on the approach to Stemmons Freeway, he heard a shot.”

He was at "position 1" (i.e. in front of the SE corner of the TSBD)on Commission exhibit 354, i.e. in front of the SE corner of the TSBD, and moved into the middle of the intersection "position 9" (i.e. in the middle of the intersection of Houston and Elm)

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0487a.htm

As John says "Falsum in Uno, Falsus in Omnibus."

8 hours ago, John Butler said:

I really don't see any doors at all on any floor.  I guess if there was a fire they would just crawl out the window.  That's really cheap.

 

Not cheap, most fire escapes are next to windows.😉

They don't normally put fire doors on upper walls,  and  a fire door wasn't required on the first floor as there were already a number of exits for escape available.

Another case of what the Butler saw, and mis interpreted.

3 hours ago, John Butler said:

It is not a basement door.  It is a door into the main office on the 1st floor of the TSBD.

There was, and there is  not, a door on the East side of the TSBD. There is, however, an opening leading up steps, to the old loading bay area, to the right of which is  a new building which I believe house part of the museum.

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Jim,

There were two stair entrances to the basement on the first floor.  Those are on the TSBD floor plan.  I have read that there were no outside entrances to the basement.  None is shown on this floor plan. 

The passenger elevator goes to the basement according to this floor plan.

Where was Roy Truly's office and Bill Shelley's office on the first floor.  The first floor plan doesn't list whose office is on the first floor.

The only exit to Houston Street is the fire escape exit located on each floor.  The offices up to the 4th floor were the location for the fire escape exit.  These were located where the middle set of windows were on the east or Houston Street side.

Since I have just noticed the stairs from the basement in the northwest corner of the TSBD leading to the basement I think that is the best way to leave the building for the assassins.

Down the passenger elevator to the basement and out the overhead door at the northwest corner or, the door in the middle of the north face out to the loading dock.  This would be in time to be seen by Richard Carr directly after the shooting.  Which means the probably left the 6th floor before the shooting.  They had staged their show and then left.

If Carr is saying they left from an exit on the Houston Street side then it must be the fire escape located in the big office on the first floor.

The exterior stairs to the North East of the TSBD are up from Houston Street onto the loading dock, not down to a basement.  There must be a basement as the note  to the interior North West of he first floor shows stairs "up from the basement," the elevators show "Basement to 7th floor", and in the lower centre of the first floor layout it shows stairs marked ~"up from basement" The ground floor wouldn't need a  fire escape door as there are already sufficient doors.

From the New York Herald Tribune. (Page 12)

"But Dr Clark said later "It was apparent that the President had sustained a lethal wound". He said that "a missile had gone in and out of the back of his head causing extensive lacerations and loss of brain tissue.""

5 hours ago, John Butler said:

Is there a side entrance on Houston Street?  I dont know of any other than the fire escape.

 

No. Look at the TSBD 1st floor plan.

13 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Maybe he should have yelled that out to the press instead of his famous "patsy" line

As a government agent, Tony, he probably thought he would get official help.

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

In the latest episode of this comedy series, John Butler has taken a crop of the Altgens 5 photograph which shows a policeman and some spectators somewhere in Dealey Plaza, and compared it to a crop of the Altgens 6 photograph which also shows a policeman and some spectators somewhere in Dealey Plaza.

Mr Butler notices that the spectators are very different in each image. He can't find a common-sense explanation for this strange anomaly. He writes that "Altgens 5 and Altgens 6 or [sic] just seconds apart and not even enough time for one crowd to vanish and another take its place." Clearly, one or both photographs were faked! Mr Butler has cracked the case!

Ray Mitcham, assisted by Tony Krome, pointed out something that's blindingly obvious to anyone who has any familiarity with the Altgens photographs: the reason the spectators look different is that the two images show different spectators and different policemen at two different locations in Dealey Plaza. Oh dear. Back to the drawing board for Mr Butler in his effort to show that "almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed."

Here is a summary of the previous hilarious episodes:

1 - A half-open car window is a slightly different shade of grey in one reproduction of the Altgens 5 photograph than in other reproductions of other photographs. There is a perfectly innocent, common-sense explanation for this apparent anomaly, an explanation which is obvious to anyone with even a basic acquaintance with black-and-white photography. Mr Butler does not have even a basic acquaintance with black-and-white photography. Therefore the Altgens 5 photograph is a fake.

2 - The Altgens 5 photograph shows a shadow on the road surface next to the car. Because Mr Butler does not appear to know the first thing about black-and-white photography, he does not believe this shadow is a shadow. Therefore the photograph is a fake.

3 - The reflection in the side of the car in the Altgens 5 photograph shows some spectators, just as one would expect. The voices in Mr Butler's head tell him that these particular spectators are actually standing elsewhere on Houston Street, although the voices in his head have neglected to provide him with any evidence to support this fantasy. Therefore the photograph is a fake.

4 - The Altgens 5 photograph's depiction of the court house and spectators do not look right to Mr Butler. Unfortunately, Mr Butler's acquaintance with the English language is not much stronger than his acquaintance with black-and-white photography, and he is unable to explain exactly what is wrong about the depiction of the court house and the spectators. Therefore the photograph is a fake.

5 - The voices in Mr Butler's head tell him that the shooting started as the presidential car was turning from Houston Street onto Elm Street. On the other hand, the Altgens 5 photograph, the Croft 3 photograph, and any number of other photographs and films fail to show the presidential party reacting to gunshots until their car had travelled for several seconds down Elm Street. Not a single photograph or film contains any evidence that the shooting started when the voices in his head tell him it started. Therefore all of these photographs and films are fakes.

6 - Mr Butler cites many witnesses who recalled that the shooting began as the presidential car was turning from Houston Street onto Elm Street. This witness evidence contradicts the photographic evidence. Therefore the photographs and films are fakes. In fact, however, most of the witnesses recalled specifically that the shooting began after, not before, the car had joined Elm Street. For some reason, Mr Butler had managed to cite evidence which completely contradicted his own argument. The voices in Mr Butler's head tell him that when the witnesses used the word 'after' they actually meant 'before'.

7 - Dozens of people took photographs and home movies in Dealey Plaza, but the authorities paid little attention to them, and in some cases did not even contact them until months or years after the assassination. The voices in Mr Butler's head tell him that, despite all of this, unknown conspirators were able to seize almost all of the resulting photographs and home movies. Unfortunately, the voices in Mr Butler's head have not yet told him exactly how the conspirators managed to achieve this near-impossible feat.

8 - The history of several of the photographs and home movies is well known, and makes it virtually impossible that these items were seized and altered. At least one of James Altgens' photographs, for example, was broadcast all over the world only half an hour after the assassination. The voices in Mr Butler's head have not yet told him exactly how or when James Altgens' photographs could have been seized and altered.

9 - Anyone who points out that Mr Butler has zero ability to analyse photographs, that he is spectacularly wrong about almost everything, that there are perfectly reasonable explanations for all of Mr Butler's supposed anomalies, and that his witness statements actually show the precise opposite of what he claimed, is a Lone Nutter. To Mr Butler, the only alternative to the Lone Nut theory is Mr Butler's notion of an absolutely enormous conspiracy, involving hundreds or even thousands of people tracking down all of the hundreds of widely dispersed spectators who had been in Dealey Plaza, seizing their films and photographs, and carefully altering the images so that each faked image matched every other faked image.

10 - The few remaining genuine lone nutters are rubbing their hands, chuckling, and agreeing with Mr Butler that the only alternative to the ridiculous Oswald-did-it-all-by-himself theory is an even more ridiculous fantasy involving some sort of vast and outrageously impractical conspiracy, the details of which Mr Butler has not yet got round to describing. Look, there aren't any reasonable objections to the lone nut theory! All of those conspiracy theorists are crazy, paranoid fantasists!

Got it in one, Jeremy

33 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I was wondering when Chris Davidson was going to show up.  It looks like I am being entertained with more pictures of tires as phony as the earlier ones.  You folks must really feel threatened by this thread.  I don't know whether to call you guys secret LN's or CT's in denial.  Doesn't matter what I am posting threatens your fantasy land of 55 years.

At least Jeremy Bojczuk is dealing with the topic at hand.  But, he is a biased commentator and somewhat of a fanatic who loves to twist statements.

"Look, there aren't any reasonable objections to the lone nut theory! All of those conspiracy theorists are crazy, paranoid fantasists!"

Is this for real or laughable? 

As far as this goes:

The smaller frame is familiar and from Muchmore just before you see Edgar Smith.  The motorbike cop blocks his view.  I would not have submitted this.

What the larger frame is I don't know.  It doesn't have either Officer Joe Marshall Smith or Edgar Smith on the southeast corner of Elm and Houston or under the windows of the Court Record Building.  This makes this frame very suspicious.

The frame does have an officer stationed in the middle of Elm St. at the intersection.  It looks to be from an elevated position.  Bell and Zapruder shot from elevated positions.  The angles don't seem right for either of them.  Can't be Zapruder because the scene is much clearer.  Can't be Altgens because he would be blocked by folk on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston.  So, who?  Not a clue.

Is this some secret film no one knows anything about?    

 

John, please stop. My stomach can only take so much laughing.

You have to be crackers.

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Krome and co. have it almost 100% correct but, not all the way.  On returning to where I first developed this information in , I see where people could say I confused Officer Barnett with Officer Joe Smith.  But, I understand why they did that and why I said what I said.

The identity of these officers is confusing because there was supposed to be 3 officers at the intersection and the film record shows there may have been four.  In some of the WC statements where these officers said they were located is confusing and was further confused by the WC interrogators such as Liebeler.  Edgar Smith said he was stationed under the windows of the Court Records Building and not on the corner of Southeast Houston and Elm.  That was about 30 or 40 feet south of the Southeast corner.  He also said there were two Smiths assigned to that corner, the southeast corner of Houston and Elm. 

This frame is from Escape From the TSBD:  The Fire Escape Plan-

From Edgar Smith’s WC testimony.

“to carry placards, but if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or any thing like that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about --
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that - let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?
Mr. SMITH. E. L. - Edgar L.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that.”

**

“Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that - yes; I was under these windows here.

567

---

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind No. 7?”

**

If there were two Smiths on the southeast corner of Houston and Elm, then who was on the northeast corner.  We have a choice of Welcome Barnett or an unknown.  Welcome Barnett from his testimony can be placed in the center of Houston Street but, also on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Welcome Barnett said in his WC statements:

“Mr. BARNETT - We divided our duties.
Mr. LIEBELER - How did you do that?
Mr. BARNETT - Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.
Mr. LIEBELER - Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view - you can sit down - Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?
Mr. BARNETT - I was right here.
Mr. LIEBELER - At No. 1.
Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building. ”
 

This could mean after the shooting had occurred word came to stop the traffic.

**

That leaves the officer standing in the middle of Houston Street as Officer Barnett or an unknown.  It is also the reason I believe Officer Barnett was the officer directing traffic after the shooting contrary to his statement.  The two Smiths ran to the Grassy Knoll immediately after the shooting.  Barnett ran up Houston Street and then around the TSBD.  He came back to his post after that. 

So, that leaves an unknown directing traffic after the shooting and stopping the Mayor’s car and after a short time releasing the Mayor’s Car and the National Press Pool Car.  Whoever was there directing traffic then stopped the Camera Cars on Houston Street for about 30 seconds.

Or, it could have been Welcome Barnett leaving his post after the shooting and directing traffic, the motorcade, on Houston Street as it moved north on Houston.

Enough distraction!  What about the 50 witness statements on shooting in the intersection of Houston and Elm.  Only Jeremy has tackled that with a rebuttal.  I don't think he did very well but, at least he tried to debunk those statements.  As far as the trall (misspelled Ray) has made his usual meaningless, garbage noises and others have made hay of distractions, why can't they concentrate on the seriousness of the charge that shooting occurred in the intersection before the motorcade reached the Grassy Knoll?

Not a word of apology for being completely wrong  several times.  Nothing bout the photo being labelled incorrectly as Houston and Main. You have no shame, Butler. You are a disgrace to the forum.

He keeps calling me a trall (trool, tr oll depending how his typing is,) yet he is the guy who keeps getting things totally wrong.  He even think that Altgens 6 was cropped before being sent out over the wires. You couldn't make it up.

I await his evidence that I am a "Lone Gunner' whatever that is supposed to mean, but then I am used to him making assertions that he can't back up.

As i said earlier, give up while you're losing John, you are making a show of yourself.

Enough, already, you can't argue with stupid.

Shameless comment.

You know he drove his wife to suicide? Did she tell you before she hanged herself, Jim?

And yes he kicked his heroin habit he had when he was 29. Lots of people do. Maybe you have a blameless past. But as a Trump supporter, you don't seem to have a blameless present..

He was certainly right in his condemnation of the Bushes.

6 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

This is what I have. A little complex but it was tough getting all 3 corners and cops into one scene

Click on the image for more detail, it's a big file

Nice amalgamation, Tony. Note That Butler doesn't even admit the frame he posted was at The junction of Houston and Elm, rather than Houston and Main. The man has no shame.

Quote by John Butler "I do have to apologize for an error in the info on this Towner frame.  I have a bad habit of spelling Welcome Barnett's name as Welcome Barrett.  Everything else is fine."

"Everything else is fine" except that photo is  at a different junction.😂

Who is talking about the junction of Main and Houston?  The photo you have posted is  a frame from the Towner film showing the junction of Houston and Elm Street.

The cop shown in Altgens5 is Edgar Leon Smith.

According to Officer Barnett, he was standing in front of the South East corner of the TSBD. The other cop also named Smith was standing at the corner in front of the Daltex building. The opposite to the way you have them annotated.

Altgens 5 and the photos you posted all show Houston Street towards the Elm Street junction. No wonder you have a problem understanding photos. You can't even get the basics right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMiKyfd6hA0

16 minutes ago, John Butler said:

You two fellows need to check your vision, get glasses or better glasses, or at least look at the evidence.  I don't think you boys have looked at the evidence, maybe in a cursory way at best.  Two photos and two films put Officer Welcome Barrett in the intersection and not on either the northeast or southeast corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm.

1.  Altgens 5

2.  Altgens 6

3.  Marie Muchmore film

4.  Robert Hughes

and, the Tina Towner does show an officer on the southeast corner but it is not Welcome Barrett.  That particular officer is Edgar Smith.  Officer Barret is shown in the intersection where he said he was in his WC testimony.  That makes 6 sources including his testimony.  Learn to look at the evidence on hand not the evidence in your warped and deluded minds.

Stop your trolling activities and get a life.

 

Reply from Butler

"You two fellows need to check your vision, get glasses or better glasses, or at least look at the evidence.  I don't think you boys have looked at the evidence, maybe in a cursory way at best.  Two photos and two films put Officer Welcome Barrett in the intersection and not on either the northeast or southeast corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm."

At which intersection?  Where do you place him, John?

In Zapruder frame 84, this the cop shown in Altgens5 (Yellow arrowed)

Give up while your losing, John.

I look forward to his excuses, Jeremy.

But he'll accuse me yet again of trolling him, when all I do (for factual reasons, is constantly point out his errors.

Altgens 6 shows the cop standing on at the North East corner of the junction between Houston and Elm. Altgens 5 shows the cop standing on the South East Corner. Different cops. Different locations.

Not very good at assessing photos are you, John?

Butler, you accuse me of being a tr oll and of being a Lone Gunner (whatever that means). Shows again how wrong you are in your assumptions. If you can find any comment of mine anywhere where I support the Lone Nutter position, I will refrain from criticising your mistakes where and whenever they occur. As I know you won't be able to find any, I am quite safe in saying I shall continue to correct your many faux pas in the future. 

Still having problems with chasing shadows?