Ray Mitcham

Working on something... The image above is far from correct...

Does this make a bit more sense - or ??

That's exactly it. David. Makes sense once it is coloured properly..

No sh*t, Sherlock. You are right, as I have been telling you all along. Nobody else saw the package. therefore they could both be lying.

Brilliant logic, Ray. ~eyeroll~

No wonder you're lost. Even the easy things are beyond your grasp.

Tell me, what's the official number of people who you think are required to witness an event in order for you to consider those people "truth tellers" instead of "liars"? Is the number 3, 4, 5? 55? (We know, of course, it's not as low as "2".)

It would seem you are the one who is lost, David. Lost in the midden of the Warren Report.

You either believe Frazier was telling the truth about the bag or you think he was lying. Either way, his story doesn't allow for the rifle to be carried into the TSBD in that bag.

Two uncorroborated reports from siblings is hardly evidence.

Now do you think it is possible that Frazier's sister could have been backing him up in his story? Yes or no will suffice.

Ray -

I do not post that I think it is the black man's arm - do I?

Sorry if I misunderstood you, David. I thought that's what you meant.

I left that uncolored because even though it looks like the same material as Lovelady's shirt - and does appear to be his arm... it simply looks unnatural and cut off as BA observed.

butt up against the area of the shoulder you arrow.

We agree that the white of the sirt of the man behind him does butt up against his shoulder

No, I don't agree. The white shirt does not but up to the part you arrow.

Here is an extreme close-up of the white shirt, cheek and shoulder and a version farther back with more contrast

The shadow on the left shoulder comes from where?

It is not a shadow. It the right lapel of the jacket of the guy to the right (as we look at it) of Lovelady.

(btw - due respect to the image makers here... most of what I post is my work. I try to give credit where due if I post other's work - sometimes I don't know the source)

Just a quick question (not to divert the topic but slightly related to it) but doesn't anyone else (unless there are visual elements I am unaware of in photography which I admit, may be quite a handful) see the oddity in Lovelady's extremely "slanted" or cut left shoulder in the Altgen's photo? Please tell me I am missing something.

BA - I have yet to find where your observations are not some of the finest offered on this forum...

I'll add - Or how it appears that Lovelady's arm is in FRONT of the black man who we know was well west and closer to the camera...

David whilst agreeing with your general conclusions, I feel that your coloured photo showing Lovelady with his shirt in green, omits the lower part of his arm. It is not, IMO, the arm of the black guy in front of him.

Why would the black guy have his arm in the air, and where is his hand?

I'd love to know how CE399, the "magic bullet", came through all those wounds and lost just a small amount of lead from the base.

Jfk's back,

Jfk's throat,

Connally's back

Connally's rib

Connally's chest,

Connally's Wrist

Connally's thigh.

A truly "Magic" bullet.

Hi Ray, are suggesting that Buell and Linnie were coerced into lying about the package?

What's your stance? Was there a package, or wasn't there? Yes or no will suffice.

Hi Paul. An easy yes or no doesn't suit.

t don't know.

However either they were both lying, to CYTA, and there was no bag. Therefore no rifle.

Or they weren't lying and the bag was too small to carry the broken down rifle.

(I tend to think that they were lying, but that's only a feeling in my water.)

Either way, The story doesn't add up.

Only two people said they saw Oswald carrying a package. Frazier and his sister.

And given the circumstances, why would you expect anybody else to necessarily have seen Oswald with the package?

I wouldn't Expect anything. Nobody else saw the package.

It's early in the morning on Nov. 22. Lee walks toward the Frazier house. Linnie Mae happens to be looking out the window and sees LHO with the package. Then the only other person that I would have completely EXPECTED to see the package---Buell Wesley Frazier---sees the paper bag on the back seat (and sees LHO carry it into the TSBD Building).

You can expect whatever you want. Nobody else saw the package.Period.

And it's quite possible that Oswald might have stashed the bag/rifle in the Loading Dock area BEFORE he ever entered the inner door that led to the TSBD's first floor (where Jack Dougherty was). But we also know that Dougherty said he only saw LHO that morning out of the "corner" of his eye. So why would you expect him to have necessarily seen any package even if Lee had it with him at that time?

As I said, I don't expect anything. Whether the rifle was in the loading bay before or after he entered the doors immaterial. Nobody else saw the package.

So, IMO, the argument about "Only Two People Saw Him With The Package" is a very weak argument given the time of day and the conditions of Oswald putting the package in the back seat of Frazier's car (where nobody BUT Frazier and Oswald himself could possibly see it on the way to work). Therefore, I wouldn't necessarily expect anyone else to see that brown bag. And, quite obviously (given the overall evidence and testimony), I'm right---nobody else did see it.

No sh*t, Sherlock. You are right, as I have been telling you all along. Nobody else saw the package. therefore they could both be lying.

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-his-rifle-and-his-paper-bag.html

Hi B.A.

I'm not sure but I think its shadow. I don't mean to be rude but Bob, Randy and others have raised some very good points. Could we please discuss Altgens on another thread?

Hmm....I'm not so sure. The neck leading into the shoulders seems too steep downward but it could be a variety of factors to consider.....in another topic lol. Thanks for the input and feedback for those of you that responded. Sorry, back on topic.

Similar position to this position, B.A.

Just a quick question (not to divert the topic but slightly related to it) but doesn't anyone else (unless there are visual elements I am unaware of in photography which I admit, may be quite a handful) see the oddity in Lovelady's extremely "slanted" or cut left shoulder in the Altgen's photo? Please tell me I am missing something.

B.A., the reason why Lovelady's shoulder appears to be odd is because he is leaning forward with his left shoulder down so he can see better around the entrance corner. Imagine yourself in his position, you are standing on steps and the limo is disappearing out of your line of sight. You can't move forward because of the people in front of you so you lean forward and to your left, dipping your shoulder, automatically. Try it.

Paul, only two people said they saw Oswald carrying a package. Frazier and his sister.

Do you agree that they could have been lying for their own reasons?

Just because they said he was carrying curtain rods, does not necessarily mean it is true. Not strong evidence on which to base a opinion.

Sorry, Pat, but I prefer to believe the original statements of the Doctors at Parkland rather than dubious autopsy photos and doctors.

Here we see how a LN par excellence, DVP twists things the people write.

Quote from above.

"MARTIN HAY SAID:

Nowhere in my review do I state or even suggest that "all the evidence is fake and phony". .... I never suggested that there was anything "fraudulent" about the rifle.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Good. Then Oswald is guilty. He has to be guilty if the evidence is not "fake" or "phony" or "fraudulent".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note the devious omission by Von Pein of the simple word "all", in Martin's statement.

Changes the meaning completely.

Shame on you, VP.

Therefore, according to your logic shown above, because some of the evidence is "fake" or "photo" or fraudulent" then Oswald was framed.

Thirded (?)

WOW!.

Are we still waiting for Mr Parker's camera evidence? Feasibly, he doesn't have any.

Greg ...." can we run through all the possible cameras he may have had access to?"

Where did he say he had evidence?

I read the first of Clint Hill's books. I don't recall a statement about blood on the trunk. I wish I could remember his precise description of whether Jackie was reaching for brain matter on the trunk lid.

This was in the Daily Mail, David. Might be of interest to you.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236766/Clint-Hill-Jackie-Kennedys-bodyguard-reveals-decades-guilt-49th-anniversary-JFKs-assassination.html

As you say Mark... no sound, no smoke, man seen in the TSBD with a rifle, no scope, looks like a 2 foot pipe at the end....

and some guy named Mitch Werbell http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKwerbell.htm

I'm definitely not saying it was used from the TSBD...just that we ought not think that all rifles are loud, even suppressed, and emit smoke based on common knowledge.

If this rifle was used - and you can hear how quiet it is - I dare say no one would notice the shot.

Sound of a firecracker?

Further information on the steps, for those who are interested.

Just for information, I have had this from the TSBD re the heights of the entrance steps.

Top three steps are 7 1/4' high

next is 7 1/8'

Next is 7 1/4"

Next 7 1/8"

and the bottom riser is 6 3/4"

Total of 50" from street level to top step.

Ray,

Just looking at the photographs, it's hard to believe that there is only a 4'2" difference between street (sidewalk?) level and top of the step.

Respectfully,

--Tommy

These are the actual measurements which I assume will be more accurate than trying to judge by eyes only.

The measurements are from the sidewalk, which is what I meant by street level.

Just for information, I have had this from the TSBD re the heights of the entrance steps.

Top three steps are 7 1/4' high

next is 7 1/8'

Next is 7 1/4"

Nerxt 7 1/8"

and the bottom riser is 6 3/4"

Total of 50" from street level to top step.

Apologies Ray. It's at jfkassassination forum photo gallery under William Allen Photo's Large on page 4. It's the last one on the page.

I'll try and get my links issues sorted out and insert it.

Thanks, Vanessa. Don't know if you mean this photo. If so the door being opened by the cop, is central and the glass to the left as we look at it, is a fixed partition. (You can see the radiator behind the glass- it wouldn't be there if the partition was a door..)

Thanks Ray.

Please see the link below. At the very last comment there is a picture of a policeman holding the door open to let people in and out of the TSBD. He's not standing on the top landing to do that. He's on the next step down. If he were on the top landing he'd be in an awkward position when the door is being opened and closed.

http://wwwjfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=9549.36

Your link doesn't work for me, Vanessa. Any other link?

Hi James

Lovely to be back here. Thanks for letting me back on.

In terms of heights, I'm 5 foot tall and I can tell you that I am always the shortest person in the room. I've rarely met women who are my height and never a man.

I've lived in the US and Australia and I'd say it's incredibly unlikely that a white male would be only 5 foot tall, just from my experience. It's not impossible, of course, but if PM was only 5 foot tall I would expect him to have small arms too and PM's arm looks quite normal or large even compared to his body. His head and torso also look normal sized.

I think it's very unlikely that PM is standing on the top landing of the steps. The TSBD door opens outwards and he would be pushed off the top landing every time someone opened the door to go in or out.

I agree with most of what you say, Vanessa except that Prayerman is standing in front of the fixed window of the entrance rather than the door.

I'm late to the discussion here, so perhaps my question has already been answered.

Is there any indication that [a] Oswald rolled up his shirt sleeves at work on November 22, or that Oswald had a habit of rolling up his shirt sleeves?

I ask because PM appears to have rolled up long shirt sleeves to above his elbows. Either that, or he appears to be wearing a short-sleeve shirt.

Dear Mr. Tidd,

I respectfully disagree.

I think Prayer Man is wearing a long sleeved shirt , not rolled up, and that there is sunlight on his right forearm, making the sleeve on his right forearm look lighter than it really was in comparrison to the rest of his shirt which is in the shade. Note that this lighter color starts right at his right elbow, not a little bit below it which would be the case if the sleeve were rolled up or if he were wearing a short sleeved shirt. I think you can even make out where the right sleeve ends a little short of Prayer Man's right wrist, and the "plaid" pattern on the forearm part of the sleeve.

I'm starting to think that Prayer Man was Billy Lovelady after all, and that Altgens 6 "Doorman" and Weigman's "Prayer Man" were one and the same person -- Lovelady.

But the question remains: Where is Bill Shelley in either Altgens 6 or Weigman?

--Tommy

I disagree with Tommy's view that Prayerman's arm is in sunshine. I think it is totally in shadow. Line up the shadows of the people in the foreground and then see how the shadow of the left doorway would put Prayerman totally in shadow.

IMO.

Rolled up sleeve arrowed.

That's my lot. Carry on with your delusions, Bobby.

Ray,

Do you have an opinion as to who that is with the rolled up sleeve, arrowed?

Your co-conspirator buddy,

--Tommy

Nope, sorry, Tommy. Just know it ain't Lovelady.

Rolled up sleeve arrowed.

That's my lot. Carry on with your delusions, Bobby.