Ray Mitcham

Even Dr Humes didn't believe that CE399 caused the wounds in JFK and Connally.

Mr. SPECTER - "Dr. Humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, 399, could have been the one to lodge in Governor Connally's thigh?"

Commander HUMES - " I think that extremely unlikely. The reports, again Exhibit 392 from Parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the Governor, and X-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in Governor Connally's thigh. I can't conceive of where they came from this missile."

The "ballistics expert" who invented the Single bullet theory was a young lawyer, Arlen Specter.

'nuff said.

"

• "You call it the theory; I call it the conclusion; it was a theory until we found the facts [edit - "manufactured the evidence"] ; that's why I refer to it as the Single-Bullet Conclusion." -- Arlen Specter; 1967

Wasn't Ruby also an informer for the FBI? Seem to remember reading it somewhere years ago.

A humanitarian rifle? Which one of these is the subject of the statement? (Assuming they are, as they appear to be, different rifles?)

In lone nutterville that is not magical at all. Kentucky fried fallacies explain it.

Finger lickin' crud.

Also magical rifles that changed from Mausers into a Mannlicher Carcanos, magic wallets which appeared and disappeared at will at the Tippit scene, rifle shells that magically changed positions in the snipers nest and a paper bag that moved before it could be photographed.

Your link says it's by Mel Ayton with a foreword by DVP.

Ray

I read this as Lovelady entering the rear of the TSBD approx two minutes after he and Shelley left the doorway steps.

quote:

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

And i read Adams statement as saying that she and Styles had passed Lovelady and Shelley, who may have just entered the TSBD through the Houston st dock, as Adams and Styles were exiting through the Houston st dock.

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.

It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

She denied ever saying she saw Lovelady and Shelley. I know it was in her W.C. testimony, but she still denied seeing them.

Robin, didn't Vicky Adams later deny that she said that she saw Shelley and Lovelady?

Lovelady said this in his testimony.

Mr BALL -Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?
Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.
Mr. BALL - That's all?
Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---
Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. BALL - How many steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.
Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

How could they have done all that and got back to the rear of the TSBD before Vicky Adams came down the stairs?

He was banned, B.A.

David

If you look at the back of head photo, you can see that JFK's head is tilted quite far back, and we are viewing a good portion of the top of his head, as well as the back. This can be proven by looking at a photo of JFK from 22-11-63 prior to the assassination. Normally, JFK's hairline at the back of his head is even with the bottom of his ear. In the BOH photo, the hairline is way below the ear, indicating either the head has been tilted back or the photographer is taking the photo from an angle that places him more above the head.

If we then compare this to the photo on the left, an obvious question must be asked. What happened to the brain and skull matter and the long hair?

At least one of these photos must be a forgery.

Or a substitute body.

Hi Greg. Don't know if you saw this on another thread. but A.J. MacDonald Jnr. said he was there as a child, at Bethesda when the helicopter arrived with JFK's body.

see

I apologize, Ray. I see how that might confuse you. Let me fix that: he says his parents saw Jackie, but is unclear whether he believes she was there.

It didn't confuse me, Scott. It obviously confused you as you said he said he saw Jackie when he didn't say that at all.

What part of " "My mom and dad remember seeing Jackie Kennedy there too — still wearing her blood stained dress — but I don’t remember seeing her." do you not understand?

But anyway apology accepted.

Trying to distract peole from the fact that Dave finally had to concede that "post 8;00" witnesses saw the same wound as Parkland?

No- just to show that you can't comprehend what MacDonald wrote.

Your quote

"Here's another one, Ray. This guy claims that the body arrived by helicopter, was on a gurney cover by a sheet, and was placed in a grey ambulance. And to top it off he claims Jackie was on the helo too."

http://ajmacdonaldjr...tal-what-i-saw/

His actual comment;

"My mom and dad remember seeing Jackie Kennedy there too — still wearing her blood stained dress — but I don’t remember seeing her.

Haven't had enough, David. I was waiting for Scott apologise for mis-stating what MacDonald had said about Jackie at Bethesda.

Are you saying MacDonalds parents are liars? Oh my!

No. Just you . You said that McDonald said that he saw Jackie at Bethesda. I have shown you that he didn't say that.

Haven't had enough, David. I was waiting for Scott apologise for mis-stating what MacDonald had said about Jackie at Bethesda.

Here you are, Bob,

"Mr. EISENBERG - Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth. floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the south east corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.
Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge-- from the same type of cartridge as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG - That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches. "

Here's another one, Ray. This guy claims that the body arrived by helicopter, was on a gurney cover by a sheet, and was placed in a grey ambulance. And to top it off he claims Jackie was on the helo too.

http://ajmacdonaldjr.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/the-arrival-of-jfks-body-at-bethesda-naval-hospital-what-i-saw/

Just as matter of interest, Scott. he doesn't claim Jackie was on the helicopter.

"My mom and dad remember seeing Jackie Kennedy there too — still wearing her blood stained dress — but I don’t remember seeing her."

Maybe what he says he saw, happened.

Agreed, Paul. Seems too much of a co-incidence that "Umbrella man" was next to a black guy who appeared to have a walkie talkie, right where the road had newly painted yellow lines on the curb, ( the reasons for these, nobody seems to know,) and the part of the road where Greer just happened to brake hard.

IMO this is the killing zone, and the Umbrella man and the walkie talkie man were the guys in just the right position to ensure that the hit teams were co-ordinated.

Again just my 2c.

Scott, there is the possibility that what they said to the ARRB was a CYA situation. If they had have left the casket in the ante room after being told to ensure that they do not ever let JFK's body out of their sight, then they would have been in deep trouble if they admitted same.

Different body?

My comments in red

And Newman's 1986 map also indicates he didn't think the shots came from anywhere near the famous "Grassy Knoll/Picket Fence" area of Dealey Plaza either. (That was kind of my main point, in case you missed it.)

As I said earlier the argument has never been about the picket fence, You are the only one bringing it up!

But, then too, we already knew that fact when Newman clearly stated in his 11/22/63 affidavit that the shots came from "directly behind me", which does not equate to the famous "Grassy Knoll" area where the fence is.

Agreed! At last, we seem to be getting somewhere, "Directly behind me"!!!!

Regarding where do I think the bullet went that entered from the front? Easy -- It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

OIC. That must be why only TWO very small metal fragments were plucked from inside President Kennedy's head by the autopsy surgeons at Bethesda, huh?

And I wonder why there is very little in the way of bullet (metal) fragments visible in the X-rays taken of JFK's head? A faked X-ray, Ray? ....

Yep, we definitely are getting there.

And it's also good to know that you, Ray Mitcham, are a person who actually DOES think that the great-big wound in JFK's head serves as the ENTRY point for a bullet. Most people can easily figure out the ENTRIES from the EXITS when it comes to assessing bullet wounds, with the largest wound almost always indicating the BLOW-OUT (or EXIT) point for the missile.

And it's good to know that you, David Von Pain continue to believe the unbelievable.

But, as with everything in this JFK case, the conspiracists have a habit of turning night into day---and exits into entries.

No., not the conspiracists. That's what surgeons at the autopsy did.

A humorous example of this type of topsy-turvy mindset exhibited by some conspiracy theorists came up on one of the other JFK forums, when a certain unnamed kook insisted that Governor Connally's chest wound was actually a wound of ENTRY, while Connally's upper-back wound was a wound of exit.

Such is the upside-down world of JFK conspiracists.

A typical stupid Von Pein comment.

I notice you said nothing about your sneaky angled photo of the dealey Plaza sketch

Nice photo, David, but very naughty. Pity it was taken from an angle which compresses the sketch of Dealey Plaza. It looks a bit different when you see it like this

The grey curved line equates to the one drawn on by Newman and his position is circled lower on the drawing. It shows that he thought the shot came from nowhere near the TSBD.

Regarding where do i think the bullet went that entered from the front,-easy….It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

No, I don't think he had superhuman abilities. Neither have you, although it seems that you think you do.

You appear to know more about what he saw than he did.

In his first tv interview, Newman said that he saw the bullet hit the President in the side of the temple. Subsequent interviews do not compare with earliest interviews as you know.

He was the closest to the assassination and saw what he saw, and no matter how you try to twist it.

Perhaps if you think that what he saw, was the exit of the bullet rather than the entrance, you could tell us where the bullet that supposedly did what you say, ended up.

I'm not interested in what he told Eddie Barker, this is from his Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me.

And just how on Earth does Zapruder's "from back of me" remark help out the conspiracy theorists who want to place a gunman behind a fence on the Grassy Knoll, which is a fence that was certainly NOT in "back" of Abe Zapruder's pedestal at the time of the head shot. That fence was to the RIGHT of Zapruder....and actually, to be technical, the area of that fence where most of the conspiracy buffs like to put a gunman was also a little bit in FRONT of Zapruder's position as well (i.e., a little SOUTH of the Zapruder pedestal) -- as the photograph below indicates:

But I suppose all the conspiracy theorists can argue that the picket fence area was, indeed, IN BACK of Zapruder's position when at least ONE of the shots was fired, because Zapruder's body would have been turned more toward the Elm & Houston corner at that time.

So you can argue that "angle" difference if you want, but it's still not going to garner you a victory in this particular argument, and that's because of the following portion of Mr. Zapruder's Warren Commission testimony that Ray decided to leave out of his last post:

Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - From the direction behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No.

So it's pretty clear to me that Zapruder's WC testimony is in perfect harmony with what he told CBS-TV in 1967. In other words--he just couldn't tell exactly where the shots were coming from.

The subject is not about the picket fence. It is about where the head wound was, Newman said in his earliest interview that "“ As the car got directly in front of us, uh, a gunshot, apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.”

Now if you can show how a gunshot to the side of the temple can equate to a bullet in the back of the head, I'd be very interested in your explanation.