Ray Mitcham

David, if you can't see my argument, it's no use trying to explain it.

39) Who gave the DPD the description of the assassin that was broadcast over the police radio at 12:45pm?

I touched on this topic in answering Question #33. It was very likely Howard L. Brennan who provided the description broadcast on the DPD radio at 12:45. But even if it wasn't--so what? In fact, I've always kind of liked the idea that maybe it WASN'T Brennan who was responsible for that APB broadcast. Because in that case, as I mentioned before in Question 33, it means that there was yet another (unidentified) person in Dealey Plaza who described the sixth-floor TSBD assassin virtually the same way that Howard Brennan did. Here's the verbatim words that were broadcast over the Dallas Police radio at 12:45 PM CST on November 22, 1963, just fifteen minutes after President Kennedy was shot:

"Attention all squads. The suspect from Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male about thirty, slender build, 5 feet 10 inches tall, 165 pounds, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle. No further description at this time, or information. 12:45."

Let's compare that description with what Howard Brennan wrote in his 11/22/63 affidavit:

"He was a white man in his early 30's, slender, nice looking, slender and would weigh about 165 to 175 pounds."

Notice any similarities?

Of course, the part about the suspect being armed with a "30-30 rifle" probably didn't come from Brennan, because Brennan didn't know guns at all. So that part of the 12:45 DPD broadcast must have come from a different source entirely. But the description of the assassin is identical to the way Brennan himself described the assassin just a short time later on November 22nd in his Sheriff's Department affidavit.

Brennan according to his own words described the shooter thus.

""While I was waiting for the policeman to return, I looked around again at the scene. The chaos and anguish of a few minutes earlier had subdued. There was no one still sitting on the ground and the noise and confusion had begun to settle. A curious, almost eerie quiet had descended over the area. Shortly after we got to the front steps of the building a plain clothes policeman came out of the door.[5] He asked me what I had seen and I told him. I gave him a description of the man I had seen on the sixth floor with the rifle. “He was a young man about 25 to 35 years old. He seemed to be of average height, not over six feet and he had dark hair that was beginning to recede.” He went to a police car that was parked nearby and broadcast the description I had given him. I learned later that this was the first description broadcast to all units of the Dallas Police Department and may have led Officer J. D. Tippit to stop Lee Harvey Oswald.

I don't believe I ever saw the history channel episodes on LBJ. Are they available somewhere, or viewable online?

Paul, I think you will find the episodes available on you tube. "The men who killed Kennedy- The guilty men" .

Under the Constitution of the United States of America, before there can be a trial in a murder case, the evidence must be presented to a grand jury and the grand jury must evaluate that evidence and make the determination as to whether or not there is enough evidence to indict anyone for the crime.

Dave Reitzes, in his Skeptic article, calls for a careful and sober analysis of the evidence, and a number of other threads have descended into an argument over the evidence and what it means.

DVP says that the evidence proves Lee Harvey Oswald was the assassin because the bullet shells found at the scene were at one time fired through the rifle, the rifle was purchased through the mail by Lee Harvey Oswald and found on the Sixth Floor of the TSBD, so therefore Oswald must have fired the bullets that killed the President.

Oswald told his brother, "Don't believe the so-called evidence," and indeed, there are many questions as to the origin of the bullets, where did they come from?

While i will introduce each piece of evidence, one at a time, to a devoted thread, in the order in which the evidence was discovered, beginning with the bullet shells discovered by Dallas Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney at approximately 1:10 pm on 11/22/63 under a window in the South East corner of the Texas School Book Depository.

It would be nice if someone could provide a photo of these three shells - and the Warren Report photo of them on the floor with the circles around them.

This thread is devoted strictly to the topic of the shells and what they tell us and I ask people to please stay on topic.

Additional threads will be started on other exhibits - including the boxes of books, the paper bag, the rifle, etc. but we should stick to the shells first as they were the first pieces of evidence discovered in the crime.

Hope this will do, Bill,

I don't know what model it was (maybe Ray knows?) but I concur that on all the ones I've ever seen the chain is connected to the camera, not the case.

Example from ebay (zoomable pic):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-MINOX-B-SUBMINIATURE-ESPIONAGE-CAMERA-Silver-Spy-Leather-Case-Chain/380728681545?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D1539177441760753109%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D171134174877%26

(sorry about the "monster" link)

Hi Chris. Sorry I have no idea what the model was. I also have only ever seen the chain attached to a camera, but maybe there some that don't and the chain attaches to the camera case instead. Maybe I should have added "IMO" to my statement that the chain is "always attached to the camera".

Is the Minox camera in the yellow circle? I don't know what I am a looking at.

[deleted]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ray,

Is the camera still inside the case, or is the case empty? It looks like the measuring chain is connected to the near end of the case.

--Tommy

Tommy, I don't wish to be unkind, but in both of my above posts, I said under the case. With a Minox, the chain is attached to the camera thru' the end of the camera case. It is never attached to the camera case itself.

Ray,

Well, I don't mean to be unkind either, but I did edit my post before you posted this. (See post # 4.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fast-forwarding to the present, here's an even newer comment!:

I think you're mistaking the graphic design of that part of the linoleum floor for the camera body.

And here's a new question, too!:

If, as you say, the chain is always connected to the camera, then what's the star-shaped piece of metal on the end of the case for?

Thank you,

--Tommy

If you think the camera under the case is the design of the lino, that's your choice. I can't agree as if I did it would make us both wrong.

Is the Minox camera in the yellow circle? I don't know what I am a looking at.

[deleted]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ray,

Is the camera still inside the case, or is the case empty? It looks like the measuring chain is connected to the near end of the case.

--Tommy

Tommy, I don't wish to be unkind, but in both of my above posts, I said under the case. With a Minox, the chain is attached to the camera thru' the end of the camera case. It is never attached to the camera case itself.

Is the Minox camera in the yellow circle? I don't know what I am a looking at.

Sorry, Robert, I should have made myself more clear. Yes, the camera is inside the yellow circle, lying directly under the empty case and lying in the same direction as the case with just the narrow silver base of the camera showing. Also shown is the camera chain which is always attached to the camera, both as a safety chain and to be used to measure the distance of an object from the lens.

The following photo of the equipment removed from Ruth Paine's garage shows a Minox camera under the empty case. The chain that is always attached to the camera for measuring purposes is also to be seen.

Looks like the FBI were telling Porkies! (again)

[/url]

I bet Mytton is cursing himself for passing the email on. He obviously couldn't wait to pass the info on but forgot to look at the consequences.

According to a posting on Duncan's forum, Ray Carroll has "been banned" form this forum. In view of his recent posts, I can understand why.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/pages/Image1.gif

"....and a second wound occurred in the posterior back at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra."

Bob, strange that Admiral Burkely was never called to testify by the Warren Commission or the HSCA.

"In 1976, Burkley's lawyer William Illig contacted Richard Sprague of the HSCA, saying that his client had information that "others besides Oswald must have participated." Sprague was ousted days later, and the reconstituted HSCA and its medical panel never took Burkley's testimony. "

I think we know why.

Quote Graves:

nor did they try to find and question the (IMHO) equally suspicious, radio-packin' Dark Complected Man...

A speculation:

Was it a radio, or was it a hidden flechette device? DCM was in the best position to fire a flechette against Kennedys neck. He was IN the street nearly in front of him...the second, Kennedy was hit in the neck DCMs right Hand was on his belt buckle...a belt buckle flechette device?...a flechette shot from a belt buckle?...why not...Umbrella Man could have been just a agent of distraction...

KK

Seems to be a walkie talkie in this frame, Karl[/url]

Here's "Prayer Man" and three photos of Oswald that was put together by someone who is not a member of this forum and emailed to me a while back, and I'm sorry I've been off line and haven't had time to post it, and haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if it has already been posted.

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/prayer-man-at-tsbd

I think it makes it clear that "Prayer Man" could most certainly be Oswald, though I am also giving odds on it possibly being B.W. Frazer.

I don't buy the speculation that "Prayer Man" is eating Oswald's cheese sandwich, drinking a coke, taking pictures or eating an apple, or that this is where the encounter with Baker and Truly takes place - as Baker would have no reason to suspect "Prayer Man" of being suspicious, and he can't be drinking a coke - if he is Oswald because he didn't buy the coke yet. I also don't think Baker and Truly found Oswald sitting at a table in the second floor lunchroom drinking a coke, as the SS reenactment photo would indicate.

I also place more credence in the original Youtube film of "College Boy" standing on the steps and then walking down and east on Elm, who I believe could be "Prayer Man" and/or Oswald, and this segment needs to be identified as to who took the film and who is in it.

I'd also like to hear what Buel Wesley Frazer has to say about it.

BK

Bill, you say Oswald "didn't buy the coke yet'. Is there any reason why he could not have bought it befor he came to the entrance. What proof have you that he hadn't "bought it yet"?

Is there a doctor in the house?

Could somebody explain why this c̶r̶a̶p̶ topic is in the JFK assassination Forum?

We could explain

Ray

but

you would not

understand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZXsxTjjPPE

You don't even know

How to spell

Your own name

Go back to the river

of

no

return

Perhaps you should come back on Christmas Eve, but this time without your pretentious rubbish.

Could somebody explain why this c̶r̶a̶p̶ topic is in the JFK assassination Forum?

Can't the moderators move it to the Fiction Forum where it belongs?

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Another very interesting quote from Baker, Ray. Do you know when that interview took place? It is presented in the context of evidence for the HSCA, but I did not see a date for the quotes.

Richard, the quote is from

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html on Dave Rietzes' site. Sorry, no further info, but thought it was of interest.

A Rebuttal to the Acoustical Evidence Theory

by

James C. Bowles

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

I really ought to fire my editor but then I'd be unemployed and yes I actually believe there were two Oswald's and that John Armstrong pretty much had it right.

Sorry, Evan, couldn't resist it.

"Bloody cloning"? You think there were two Oswalds?

The size of the reflection, it would seem to be an alarm clock rather than a watch.

I believe that's exactly what Lee Oswald did tell Fritz he was doing--only he didn't say he was doing it in the second-floor lunchroom, he said he was doing it out front.

I believe Oswald named one of the "employees" he had been eating lunch with, and it wasn't 'Junior' [Jarman] or the short 'negro' [Norman] (whose names did come up in a different context). It was Bill Shelley.

Are you recommending a faith-based approach by the rest of us, Sean?

Just because you were the genius who discovered Prayer Man

does not mean we should believe everything you believe,

like the perjured testimony of Will Fritz

which was proven false when his notes revealed that Prayer Man told him

that when the president passed by he was

Out with Bill Shelley in front.

I think we have the FBI guys confirming that he said

he was getting a coke on the second floor when the policeman came in.

And I again submit that Prayer Man

is clapping his hands.

Ray, if Prayer man is clapping his hands, what is the white reflection?

According to Captain Will Fritz's interrogation report, prepared for the WC, Lee Oswald claimed to have been on the first floor at the time of the assassination but that "he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola when the officer came in".

FBI Agent James Bookhout's solo second account of Oswald's first interrogation has Oswald makes a near-identical claim: "at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there."

If Oswald really made these claims, then either he was lying or else Marion Baker was lying about the circumstances under which he first glimpsed Oswald on the second floor. This is because Baker's story to the WC involves Oswald's being en route into the second-floor lunchroom, not being already inside it at or near the coke machine.

The fact that both Fritz and Bookhout's reports speak of Oswald not as having been on his way to buy a coke but as being already in possession of one should give pause to any conspiracy-oriented researcher minded to cite those reports as compelling evidence that Oswald confirmed the story Baker would tell to the WC.

**

I submit that both Fritz and Bookhout really did hear Oswald say he was drinking a coca-cola, which he had just purchased from the machine in the second-floor lunchroom, when an officer came in with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. But the officer was not coming into the lunchroom, he was coming into the building.

And I submit that Oswald, in saying these things, was telling the truth.

**

In March 1964 the managing editor of the Dallas Morning News gathered together the personal recollections of fifty-one press people relating to the assassination and its aftermath.

DMN reporter Kent Biffle was one of these fifty-one. Included in his piece is the moment when Roy Truly alerted the police to the 'missing' status of employee Lee Oswald. Biffle then adds the following fact:

"The [TSBD] superintendent [Truly] would recall later that he & a policeman met Oswald as they charged into the building after the shots were fired."

As they charged into the building.

Not: as they charged up the building.

Not: as they charged through the building.

As they charged into it.

**

I submit once again that the posture of Prayer Man's arms in the Darnell film indicates clearly that he must be holding something--and that we have strong reasons for identifying this man as Lee Oswald holding the very bottle of coca-cola that will find itself transplanted in time and space by Fritz and Bookhout.

**

To summarise where we are so far:

a ) Oswald did exactly what his co-workers Billy Lovelady and Harold Norman had done several minutes earlier that day: gone up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a Coca-Cola to go with his lunch

b ) Oswald informed Fritz of this pre-assassination visit to the lunchroom

c ) The Bookhout/Hosty joint report accurately reflected this fact

d ) Bookhout later wrote a solo report in order to bury this fact by ‘clarifying’ what (the now dead) Oswald had actually said

e ) Fritz weeks later 'confirmed' Oswald's 'confirmation' of the apocryphal lunchroom incident.

Were it not for Harry Holmes’ delightfully ‘off-message’ comments in his Warren Commission testimony, as well as Carolyn Arnold’s later insistence that she had seen Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom before the assassination, the switch from front entrance to second-floor lunchroom would probably have remained undetected.

Hi Sean. Makes a lot of sense. I raise my glass of Midleton. Sláinte!