Larry Hancock

I present a number of incidents which implied that Oswald was either a paid agent of Castro or a political follower who was acting to somehow protect the Cuban revolution and Castro. As an example, the infamous Pedro Charles letters clearly suggest Oswald was following orders, had been in Cuba, that the Chief was well pleased and he would be rewarded when he made it back there. Hoover was initially very interested in that view and was for holding out for a possible Cuban involvement in the FBI report – that can be seen in FBI internal communications. Martino had tried the same pitch directly to the FBI immediately after the assassination. Later, in 1966, Roselli tried to float the story of Castro operatives and a hit team sent into the U.S. by Castro. My remarks about the Dallas attack requiring local intelligence was in regard to details of the motorcade, police assignments, security plans – and possibly even the identification of police who could be used for certain minor tasks. That sort of intelligence could only come from someone with a broad exposure to the force, including experience with officers considered “dirty” or open to supplying information for money or favors. Obviously, Jack Ruby was a perfect fit for such tasks. The fact that the extensive problems with the medical evidence remained obscure does not alter the fundamental problems with the official autopsy conclusions. Problems so severe that the Justice Department had to covertly prepare one of the autopsy doctors as a “backup” witness and hold him in readiness in New Orleans during the Garrison medical testimony. The point is that there are glaring problems which argue against a smoothly planned cover-up integrated with a well- oiled conspiracy. It’s also important to remember that in the face of gag orders, security oaths, burned notes and missing reports, individuals such as David Lifton and Harold Weisberg had been fighting through the quagmire for decades before the revealing work of the ARRB.

From what we now know of his phone calls, contacts and activities immediately following the assassination (starting with the calls that night from Johnson’s aide to a variety of law enforcement people, including orders not to file any charge of conspiracy against Oswald) it seems to me that Johnson immediately began to suppress any suggestion of a conspiracy. His motive for doing that is debatable and I present two scenarios: i) that Johnson was manipulated by events and ii) that Johnson had some level of pre-knowledge and was a willing or at least partially willing participant. For the second, speculative, scenario which does mention Fred Black, I use sources other than Baker’s book on the Baker scandal (certainly I would not consider him a reliable source on his own sins. More importantly, I discovered and present independent documentation of a possible connection between the Baker scandal, Fred Black and Johnson. That documentation is in the form of a Presidential Diary entry showing a meeting between Baker, Black, Johnson and a senior officer of the firm that was at the heart of the Baker influence pedaling scandal – the meeting occurred in Vice President Johnson’s office and there is no question that it connected Johnson to Black and presented the possibility of blackmail if the matter had been discussed with Black’s close personal friend, Johnny Roselli. I present Johnson’s efforts to first simply accept the Hoover FBI report with no independent investigation at all. Then I describe his effort to convene a Texas Court of Inquiry which would certify the FBI report. Both those efforts occurred well before Johnson was forced into the concept of a Congressional committee and much of it is recorded in meetings and telephone calls in his own office diary. Johnson, in dialog with Hoover, was certainly responsible for the FBI’s marching orders but I will certainly revisit the wording in this area and see if I can improve it. My view is that Johnson was very heavily involved in ensuring that the “lone nut” view was presented to the American public and that the FBI “conclusion” of Oswald acting as the sole participant ended up as the official history of the murder.. It was inaccurate of me to suggest that he personally controlled all the elements of the investigation.

My reference to Phillips and Morales as “generals” was to the ultimate degree of influence and positions of the two individuals. At the time of his early self- retirement, Phillips next promotion in the agency would have to have had Congressional approval, as do generals. However, as of 1963, both individuals were indeed simply in very key positions. As I demonstrate in the book, both were also very independent and would engage in actions during their careers that went far beyond their apparent charters and orders – Phillips was specifically cited in that regard by the Church Committee.) I’ll concede this point though and change my wording on this in the next edition. Actually it’s Roselli who described himself as a “strategist” and given his business dealings that seems fair. I certainly can visualize that he could have added a good deal of strategy to a criminal conspiracy where the key tactical people were experienced paramilitary. I do not see Roselli as the master conspirator nor the initiator - working from the bottom up with Martino’s information, I can only take it to a certain level and certain people.

My source for the Ruby meeting with Roselli is not all “American Mafioso” nor is that book the source for the fact that Roselli confessed his involvement in a conspiracy against JFK to his lawyer (that comes from “Sons and Brothers” by a reputable Kennedy historian, Richard Mahoney). Obviously I try to pick and choose the information I consider consistent or reasonable but certainly”American Mafioso” contains a great deal of research which it would be unreasonable to totally disregard. To be specific, I view Roselli and various criminal elements, including Ruby, in a strictly support role – not as organizers or instigators but rather as advisors and accessories available because of Roselli’s connections to key CIA officers.

I disagree with certain conclusions in “Ultimate Sacrifice”, something that I’ve discussed personally with Lamar. However, I do find new information in it – including the private statements by Harry Ruiz Williams about a backchannel approach to Cuban army commander Almeida (an approach known only to Williams and the Kennedy brothers) credible and informative.. Clearly JFK and his brother were very much involved in looking for paths to trigger a coup against Castro – we have more than enough hard information to document that. And I see no reason to call Mr. Williams a xxxx, especially as the documented call for Williams from RFK on the afternoon of his- JFK’s- assassination suggests there was something very important going on between the Kennedy’s and Williams.

Nagell’s story had already been told in detail by Dick Russell and others. Martino’s full story had not been told before, indeed nobody had realized that Martino was closely connected to CIA officer David Morales, even mentioning Morales by his real name in his book about Martino’s Cuban imprisonment. More importantly, Martino identified himself as being involved in the conspiracy, described his rather minor role and made a series of very specific statements about the conspiracy – which can be tested. A good portion of the book is structured to explore and evaluate those statements. In contrast Nagel made no direct observations about the Dallas conspiracy. He did state that he had become aware of a general plan to kill JFK and blame it on Castro a full year earlier in Mexico, that he observed Cuban exiles impersonating Castro agents in contact with Oswald and tried to warn Oswald off from them. The plot known to Nagell involved something planned to happen in September in or around Washington D.C.; Nagell himself was first on the run from Cuban exiles and then in jail in the weeks before Dallas. Martino himself described his participation in the conspiracy, his role as a courier and his prior knowledge of the conspiracy. A good deal of the book is devoted to testing his statements to that effect. I will acknowledge that there is ambiguity in my specific wording as to his telephone calls on November 22,, certainly his family was convinced that he was talking to Cuban friends, some in Miami and some most likely in Dallas. One of his good exile friends was admittedly in Dallas that day and Martino himself traveled to Dallas that fall. I will qualify this point in the next edition. The specification for Oswald’s first involvement with Cuban exiles and some sort of plot is based in statements made by Richard Nagell and supported by Nagell’s claim to have warned Director Hoover about a September incident and about Oswald. The corroboration is a series, not just one, of letters by Oswald on the subject of his planned relocation to the Baltimore area. Further corroboration comes from the FBI’s very early interrogation of Marina on Oswald’s possible travel not only to Mexico but also to the Northeast. Certainly Oswald did a lot of things in New Orleans. I do mention a number of them which seem relevant to his “use” in CIA propaganda efforts, ones well known to Guy Bannister and even the fact that Bannister’s agency had been evaluated as a front for CIA activities before the Bay of Pigs. In addition I present remarks by Oswald to a Cuban doctor at the hospital Jim mentions. I think all of that was quite key but I make no pretense of fully understanding everything that went on during Oswald’s time in New Orleans and focused on the elements that related to his contacts with Cubans, both pro- and anti- Castro Cubans. As to the exact timing of when Oswald’s manipulation began, that is not my speculation, rather it is specific information from Richard Nagell. My effort was to bring in information that would corroborate Nagell by investigation of exiles who would be possible matches for the types of people described by Nagell. Especially ones coming from Miami to New Orleans, as had Nagell himself.

I wish we all knew the full truth of the conspiracy, however since we do not it seems strange to characterize my view of it with the term “tilt”. That implies that someone does know the exact truth and can measure the degree to which others are “tilting” their version of it. The book reflects my research, the sources I found most credible and my own conclusions. I have intentionally introduced certain chapters (including “End Game”) as theory and identified specific segments (including the analysis of Johnson’s actions) as speculation. In 1963 Martino was demonstrably associating with and known to CIA officers and military operations staff including David Morales, Rip Robertson and Eugenio Martinez. He played a seminal role in instigating and participating in a risky Cuban penetration mission involving former ambassador William Pawley (the mission also had documented CIA support, not to mention Life magazine photo coverage). After the assassination he was extremely active in promoting the “Castro did it, Oswald was working for Castro” propaganda and aggressively promoted that story to the FBI (at the time only his family knew that was a total creation, shortly before his death he shared it with a business partner and a friend). Unlike Nagel, we have considerable specific information on Martino’s associates and CIA contacts; we also have family members that are living and willing to share first hand information about his activities before and after the assassination. Nagell’s story had already been told in detail by Dick Russell and others. Martino’s full story had not been told before, indeed nobody had realized that Martino was closely connected to CIA officer David Morales, even mentioning Morales by his real name in his book about Martino’s Cuban imprisonment. More importantly, Martino identified himself as being involved in the conspiracy, described his rather minor role and made a series of very specific statements about the conspiracy – which can be tested. A good portion of the book is structured to explore and evaluate those statements. In contrast Nagel made no direct observations about the Dallas conspiracy. He did state that he had become aware of a general plan to kill JFK and blame it on Castro a full year earlier in Mexico, that he observed Cuban exiles impersonating Castro agents in contact with Oswald and tried to warn Oswald off from them. The plot known to Nagell involved something planned to happen in September in or around Washington D.C.; Nagell himself was first on the run from Cuban exiles and then in jail in the weeks before Dallas. Martino himself described his participation in the conspiracy, his role as a courier and his prior knowledge of the conspiracy. A good deal of the book is devoted to testing his statements to that effect. I will acknowledge that there is ambiguity in my specific wording as to his telephone calls on November 22,, certainly his family was convinced that he was talking to Cuban friends, some in Miami and some most likely in Dallas. One of his good exile friends was admittedly in Dallas that day and Martino himself traveled to Dallas that fall. I will qualify this point in the next edition.

I wish we all knew the full truth of the conspiracy, however since we do not it seems strange to characterize my view of it with the term “tilt”. That implies that someone does know the exact truth and can measure the degree to which others are “tilting” their version of it. The book reflects my research, the sources I found most credible and my own conclusions. I have intentionally introduced certain chapters (including “End Game”) as theory and identified specific segments (including the analysis of Johnson’s actions) as speculation. In 1963 Martino was demonstrably associating with and known to CIA officers and military operations staff including David Morales, Rip Robertson and Eugenio Martinez. He played a seminal role in instigating and participating in a risky Cuban penetration mission involving former ambassador William Pawley (the mission also had documented CIA support, not to mention Life magazine photo coverage). After the assassination he was extremely active in promoting the “Castro did it, Oswald was working for Castro” propaganda and aggressively promoted that story to the FBI (at the time only his family knew that was a total creation, shortly before his death he shared it with a business partner and a friend). Unlike Nagel, we have considerable specific information on Martino’s associates and CIA contacts; we also have family members that are living and willing to share first hand information about his activities before and after the assassination. Nagell’s story had already been told in detail by Dick Russell and others. Martino’s full story had not been told before, indeed nobody had realized that Martino was closely connected to CIA officer David Morales, even mentioning Morales by his real name in his book about Martino’s Cuban imprisonment. More importantly, Martino identified himself as being involved in the conspiracy, described his rather minor role and made a series of very specific statements about the conspiracy – which can be tested. A good portion of the book is structured to explore and evaluate those statements. In contrast Nagel made no direct observations about the Dallas conspiracy. He did state that he had become aware of a general plan to kill JFK and blame it on Castro a full year earlier in Mexico, that he observed Cuban exiles impersonating Castro agents in contact with Oswald and tried to warn Oswald off from them. The plot known to Nagell involved something planned to happen in September in or around Washington D.C.; Nagell himself was first on the run from Cuban exiles and then in jail in the weeks before Dallas. Martino himself described his participation in the conspiracy, his role as a courier and his prior knowledge of the conspiracy. A good deal of the book is devoted to testing his statements to that effect. I will acknowledge that there is ambiguity in my specific wording as to his telephone calls on November 22,, certainly his family was convinced that he was talking to Cuban friends, some in Miami and some most likely in Dallas. One of his good exile friends was admittedly in Dallas that day and Martino himself traveled to Dallas that fall. I will qualify this point in the next edition. The specification for Oswald’s first involvement with Cuban exiles and some sort of plot is based in statements made by Richard Nagell and supported by Nagell’s claim to have warned Director Hoover about a September incident and about Oswald. The corroboration is a series, not just one, of letters by Oswald on the subject of his planned relocation to the Baltimore area. Further corroboration comes from the FBI’s very early interrogation of Marina on Oswald’s possible travel not only to Mexico but also to the Northeast. Certainly Oswald did a lot of things in New Orleans. I do mention a number of them which seem relevant to his “use” in CIA propaganda efforts, ones well known to Guy Bannister and even the fact that Bannister’s agency had been evaluated as a front for CIA activities before the Bay of Pigs. In addition I present remarks by Oswald to a Cuban doctor at the hospital Jim mentions. I think all of that was quite key but I make no pretense of fully understanding everything that went on during Oswald’s time in New Orleans and focused on the elements that related to his contacts with Cubans, both pro- and anti- Castro Cubans. As to the exact timing of when Oswald’s manipulation began, that is not my speculation, rather it is specific information from Richard Nagell. My effort was to bring in information that would corroborate Nagell by investigation of exiles who would be possible matches for the types of people described by Nagell. Especially ones coming from Miami to New Orleans, as had Nagell himself. I disagree with certain conclusions in “Ultimate Sacrifice”, something that I’ve discussed personally with Lamar. However, I do find new information in it – including the private statements by Harry Ruiz Williams about a backchannel approach to Cuban army commander Almeida ( an approach known only to Williams and the Kennedy brothers) credible and informative.. Clearly JFK and his brother were very much involved in looking for paths to trigger a coup against Castro – we have more than enough hard information to document that. And I see no reason to call Mr. Williams a xxxx, especially as the documented call for Williams from RFK on the afternoon of his- JFK’s- assassination suggests there was something very important going on between the Kennedy’s and Williams. My source for the Ruby meeting with Roselli is not all “American Mafioso” nor is that book the source for the fact that Roselli confessed his involvement in a conspiracy against JFK to his lawyer (that comes from “Sons and Brothers” by a reputable Kennedy historian, Richard Mahoney). Obviously I try to pick and choose the information I consider consistent or reasonable but certainly”American Mafioso” contains a great deal of research which it would be unreasonable to totally disregard. To be specific, I view Roselli and various criminal elements, including Ruby, in a strictly support role – not as organizers or instigators but rather as advisors and accessories available because of Roselli’s connections to key CIA officers. My reference to Phillips and Morales as “generals” was to the ultimate degree of influence and positions of the two individuals. At the time of his early self- retirement, Phillips next promotion in the agency would have to have had Congressional approval, as do generals. However, as of 1963, both individuals were indeed simply in very key positions. As I demonstrate in the book, both were also very independent and would engage in actions during their careers that went far beyond their apparent charters and orders – Phillips was specifically cited in that regard by the Church Committee.) I’ll concede this point though and change my wording on this in the next edition. Actually it’s Roselli who described himself as a “strategist” and given his business dealings that seems fair. I certainly can visualize that he could have added a good deal of strategy to a criminal conspiracy where the key tactical people were experienced paramilitary. I do not see Roselli as the master conspirator nor the initiator - working from the bottom up with Martino’s information, I can only take it to a certain level and certain people. From what we now know of his phone calls, contacts and activities immediately following the assassination (starting with the calls that night from Johnson’s aide to a variety of law enforcement people, including orders not to file any charge of conspiracy against Oswald) it seems to me that Johnson immediately began to suppress any suggestion of a conspiracy. His motive for doing that is debatable and I present two scenarios: ii) that Johnson was manipulated by events and i) that Johnson had some level of pre-knowledge and was a willing or at least partially willing participant. For the second, speculative, scenario which does mention Fred Black, I use sources other than Baker’s book on the Baker scandal (certainly I would not consider him a reliable source on his own sins. More importantly, I discovered and present independent documentation of a possible connection between the Baker scandal, Fred Black and Johnson. That documentation is in the form of a Presidential Diary entry showing a meeting between Baker, Black, Johnson and a senior officer of the firm that was at the heart of the Baker influence pedaling scandal – the meeting occurred in Vice President Johnson’s office and there is no question that it connected Johnson to Black and presented the possibility of blackmail if the matter had been discussed with Black’s close personal friend, Johnny Roselli. I present Johnson’s efforts to first simply accept the Hoover FBI report with no independent investigation at all. Then I describe his effort to convene a Texas Court of Inquiry which would certify the FBI report. Both those efforts occurred well before Johnson was forced into the concept of a Congressional committee and much of it is recorded in meetings and telephone calls in his own office diary. Johnson, in dialog with Hoover, was certainly responsible for the FBI’s marching orders but I will certainly revisit the wording in this area and see if I can improve it. My view is that Johnson was very heavily involved in ensuring that the “lone nut” view was presented to the American public and that the FBI “conclusion” of Oswald acting as the sole participant ended up as the official history of the murder.. It was inaccurate of me to suggest that he personally controlled all the elements of the investigation. I present a number of incidents which implied that Oswald was either a paid agent of Castro or a political follower who was acting to somehow protect the Cuban revolution and Castro. As an example, the infamous Pedro Charles letters clearly suggest Oswald was following orders, had been in Cuba, that the Chief was well pleased and he would be rewarded when he made it back there. Hoover was initially very interested in that view and was for holding out for a possible Cuban involvement in the FBI report – that can be seen in FBI internal communications. Martino had tried the same pitch directly to the FBI immediately after the assassination. Later, in 1966, Roselli tried to float the story of Castro operatives and a hit team sent into the U.S. by Castro. My remarks about the Dallas attack requiring local intelligence was in regard to details of the motorcade, police assignments, security plans – and possibly even the identification of police who could be used for certain minor tasks. That sort of intelligence could only come from someone with a broad exposure to the force, including experience with officers considered “dirty” or open to supplying information for money or favors. Obviously, Jack Ruby was a perfect fit for such tasks. The fact that the extensive problems with the medical evidence remained obscure does not alter the fundamental problems with the official autopsy conclusions. Problems so severe that the Justice Department had to covertly prepare one of the autopsy doctors as a “backup” witness and hold him in readiness in New Orleans during the Garrison medical testimony. The point is that there are glaring problems which argue against a smoothly planned cover-up integrated with a well- oiled conspiracy. It’s also important to remember that in the face of gag orders, security oaths, burned notes and missing reports, individuals such as David Lifton and Harold Weisberg had been fighting through the quagmire for decades before the revealing work of the ARRB.

JMARC was the crypt for the Cuba Project which eventually generated the Bay of Pigs. JMATE was the crypt for the intelligence/counter intelligence portion of the project, largely headed by David Morales - JMATE produced the AMOT's and other select exile groups prepared by Morales. I could be wrong, but I think the particular security violation involved in the memo is the classic one where Droller and Hunt were hosting some exiles in a motel room and got well enough lubricated and noisy enough so that a lady staying next door heard them talking about secret projects and reported it to the FBI.....which of course eventually got back to CIA and didn't much help Hunt's reputation for tradecraft, it not being the only such incident in his contacts with the exiles. -- Larry The first attempts on assassination of Castro were planed by the CIA in July of 1960. There was a security breach on this planning operation and the details of this meeting has remained classified for a number of years. Has anyone out there heard or read anything about these early plans to assassination Castro? Frank Bender (also knows as Gerry Doller, and Fravel Brown were two CIA case officer who attended this early secret meetings with Manuel Artime. Does anyone know anything about this? Any help would be appreciated. I think this is an important link which could lead into new information concerning the assassination of Kennedy. Thanks P.S... I just found something on JMARC. I think this should be of interest to anyone really interested concerning the Kenedy assassination: This has been missed for a number of years (or should I say hidden in the black hole of government documents. I share this with the forum FWIW. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=4 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=5 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=6 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 ://http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/a...p;relPageId=2 "To be destroyed upon completion of Project" - yet never destroyed...heavy! http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1 Peter. You, Jim, and I, talked about this many years ago. I said there was paper on that operational plan, but nobody believed me, because it could not be documented..., well here we are over seventeen years later and it pops up. It was supose to be filed in the old file 13... it was to sensitive for even the FBI to know about, and you and Jim also. I see it as a lead into the JFK mess because some of the names cross check with Dallas. (not as assins, but as Abort Team members) I think some of the "ExPerts" are going to have to go back and redo some of their books... something they will never do... their the EXPERTS... right? If its not in print or found in a book..., then it never happened type mentality. Its no wonder the JFK matter is so messed up and confusing.

To my knowledge he never used them or actually had any need of them. His first murder, Kinser, was done with little attempt at all to hide his true identity. His alleged follow-on murders for Johnson were more in the nature of hits e.g. find the victim off by themselves and just kill them. Nothing really covert. And, if you accept the Loy Factor story, Mac even used his true last name with Factor, who knew him as Wallace. -- Larry Have you contacted Larry Hancock? He has carried out detailed research into Wallace.

Nathaniel, a couple of observations on your questions: First off, Mac Manual commented that he was very familiar with the two men as they had been routinely transporting prostitutes on the Miami to Texas route for an extended period of time; his terms suggest for at least a year if not longer. Arcacha's movements are fairly well known during the latter part of 62 and into 63 as he first moved to Tampa and then to Galveston and on to Dallas. One of the reasons they are fairly well known is that he borrowed a car to go to Florida, did not return it in time and the car owner brought charges against him. Regardless of that, he had been employed in Texas for several months in air conditioning sales and unless that was a cover for transporting prostitutes then it seems unlikely that he is a fit for one of Manual's two men. Beyond that, Smith looked similar enough in appearance to have been misidentified by other individuals during the Garrison investigation so it seems at least reasonable that Manuel simply picked his photo because Arcacha looked similar to the Odio incident individual. Beyond that, I've found nothing in Arcacha's history (which is pretty detailed as a lot of people have looked into him) that suggests he would have been a small time gangster transporting prostitutes for an extended period in 1963. As to being plugged into the BOP affair, certainly he was very involved with exile activities at that time but we need to be a little cautions. With newspaper stories running routinely about the training camps and exile training a great number of people knew that someting was in the works weeks and months ahead of the invasion. Literally hundreds if not thousands of people on both sides knew it was coming, the only question was exactly where and when. Bottom line is that its awfully hard to recruit and train a "deniable" force of volunteers and equip a brigade level sea invasion force - over an extended period of time - and keep it secret in front of an open, peace time press. (no matter how many friendly Miami press contacts the CIA had managed to establish). -- Larry

OK Bill, that's more like it. If we drop the RFK/Mafia diversion and dig into the connections between Ford and the SE Asian old boy network I think that is of great interest. As you know from SWHT, I have strong suspicions that that particular clique may have not only have set a context for the JFK conspiracy but for a good number of other foul deeds for the next decade or so....fellow travelers on the dark side. And I don't think that RFK would have been assigned a liason just by taking the first guy who had a free schedule that day... -- with you now, Larry

Very interesting thread but I must have missed something. From the documents it appears that Ford was assigned by WAVE as a liason to RFK and assisted in meeting with a variety of Cubans who might be of interest in a coup or other acts against Castro. We know that RFK was very interested in that and was reaching out to a lot of exiles ..sometimes using his own personal network as well. But what (other than some Church committee suspicion) have we seen that justifies Hersh's comment e.g. "...According to notes obtained by (Black Slyde) Hersh,...Hersh also learned that in 1962, while the assassination efforts involving the Mafia hit men were still under way, Bobby Kennedy was assigned his own operaitonal officer in the CIA, a man named Charles Ford picked from the staff of Task Force W, then commanded by (William) Harvey. Ford's job was to handle contacts with Mafia chiefs while traveling under the pseudonym of Rocky Fiscalini, a name (along with Ford's own) that appears in Bobby Kennedy's office logs for 1962. But what Ford actually did for Kennedy remains unknown." And of course Ford reported everything he did and his contacts with RFK back to wave, very handy. Easy to understand why Bobby used some independent contacts as well. Not being an avid fan of Hersh I question if he didn't stir in a little of his own agenda in the quote above? But I may have missed something in the thread...? -- thanks, Larry

Good find Stephen, that looks to be perfectly consistent with the fact that in 1960 a background investigation was requested on Bannisters PI firm - it was being considered as a cover company and the related project was listed as QK/ENCHANT. See page 427 of SWHT for details. Looks like we are getting a pretty good handle that crypt - finally. Larry

Terry, after some 18 years in this I don't have much hope of concensus.. I will say that I am reasonably convinced that Oswald did go to Mexico at least once, however his visit is certainly not as described by the WC and it was also certainly not an independent move on his part and had considerable management as well as multiple agendas from different parties. As to the second trip, I remain open to that, largely because the more I learn about Nagell and the more data becomes available, the more I am persuaded about his core information. I certainly would recommend reading Dick Russell in general and specifically on the possibility of an earlier Oswald trip to MC. -- Larry Larry/All, Are we, in the research community, accepting that LHO was in Mexico City during the times that have been listed by the CIA/FBI and others, as FACT. Was HE there or someone posing as him? Has this been established? ? Can a consensus be reached on this as a matter of fact. Are we still of the opinion, maybe-maybe not, some say he was- some say he was not. Where do we stand? I have been of the opinion that the trip was fabricated by the powers that be, so as to fit into the WHY. Terry

William, Dick Russell presents information in his book about two trips by Oswald to Mexico and about his visit to the Hotel Luma, you will find detailed out in his book Richard Case Nagell. -- Larry

This is one of many JFK urban legend class items which will likely hang around forever.. Ian Griggs deals with it in great detail in his book No Case To Answer...as well as many other subjects. His book is ideal for newcomers to this study as it helps considerably in separating the wheat from 40 some years of chaff. -- Larry

I decided my last post wasn't all that helpful so for those interested here is a brief synopsis of three books, one about Buick and two from Buick. Descriptions for Buicks book are on Amazon; there is no description for Riding the Tigers Back so I pulled just a bit of info from the book itself: Tiger in the Rain / 2005 Buick This is the true story of a poor kid from Johnstown, PA, who has lived on the edge of history. Born Bogdan Buich of Serbian parents and heritage, later to become Robert Clayton Buick (Bobby Buick), who became the most WANTED AND HUNTED man in the World. He became the most successful North American torero of his time. The aficionados and writers called him El Ciclon del Norte (The cyclone from the north). Bobby was excitingly spectacular and almost fearless in the bullring. His repertoire consisted of a great variety of floral and spinning passes always in close proximity to the bull's horns. There were many collisions with his brave opponents due to Bobby's style initiating subsequent gorings. Then one day alias Roberto Buick "El Ciclon del Norte" was recruited by the U.S. Government for a surveillance project at a small hotel in Mexico City to observe clandestine activity there where he uncovered a plot to kill President Kennedy two months before the President was assassinated in Dallas on November 22, 1963. An even that changed Bobby's life forever. His story is interwoven throughout international and historical intrigue. Food for the Jackals / 2007 Buick A riveting work that continues to probe the Kennedy assassinations by the author of Tiger In The Rain, who was told by Lee Harvey Oswald that president Kennedy was to be assassinated two months before he was killed in Dallas, Texas. The author tears away the veneer of speculative assumption and tells what really happened on that fateful day in Dallas when "they" killed a President, and then murdered his "kid brother", Bobby Kennedy, five years later in a kitchen pantry in Los Angeles. The author reveals the true relationship between the First Lady Jackie and the President John Kennedy. The fabricated image of "Camelot on the Potomac" is stripped aware with bare-essence of fact. The author being the only remaining person alive with personal knowledge of fact, blows out the smoke, shatters the mirrors and exposes the corruption, illuminating in the light of day, the crime of the 20th century. For a more detailed and indepth insight about the author and his works go to website www.RobertClaytonBuick.com. Riding the Tigers Back - A Footnote to the Assassination of JFK / 1992 Phillip Hemenway ….a story based on the prison correspondence and contacts between Buick and Karl von Kleist, his pen pal and chess partner. Buick made the FBI’s Top Ten Most Wanted list (for bank robbery) in March 1966. “Buick is a devotee of the Mob Hit Theory in the Kennedy assassination. He was in prison with and close to Johnny Roselli. If Roselli confided some juicy jailhouse facts to him he’s not talking.” “Giancana, Roselli and Ruby, put them together and go for it dummy!” (from a letter written by Buick to Hemenway)

It would be educational to see exactly how this book came to be. And I'll stick with my previous remark, anyone reading this one without having read the first book -- written from the fellow he was corresponding with outside prison -- is making a real mistake. -- Larry

I feel much the same way Gene....not sure on the term "seizure", I do not think the ambulance drivers described it that way. As to Belnap, apprently he recovered fairly quickly at Parkland without treatment and just got up and walked out some how. Would have to have been quickly as the emergency area of the hospital was being sealed off. -- Larry

Sorry Jack, I was referring to the stalled pickup on Elm beyond the overpass and not the ambulance pick-up at the cornor. I should have been more descriptive, Larry To the contrary, the ambulance pickup was at Houston and Elm, and was filmed by Charles Bronson. The Bronson film shows the flashing light atop the ambulance. Jack

It's a skill I'm trying to develop Peter...grin. By the way, I should point out that Gary Mack reminded me that the seizure victim had also been interviewed by Jerry Rose. So he really is not a mystery man. Still, I doubt that any of his interviews substitute for a solid background investigation so I retain my right to be suspicious and contrarian. The series of fake ambulance calls to that intersection actually seem a stronger argument for a developing plot than the seizure....to me... Gary also pointed out that the pick-up was not literally in the plaza since it was beyond the overpass...a point which I cheerfully concede. -- Larry

You are correct Gene, that comes from my book and is sourced from one of the ambulance staff who picked him up and took him to Parkland. He has also mentioned that he thought it was amazing the fellow was able to walk out of Parkland as he himself was prevented from leaving and he thought the whole area was sealed at the the time. He did relate the FBI inquiry into the fake calls and that does seem very suspicious. Certainly it adds to the issue of the ideal timing of the incident. Problem is that it may be totally innocent, there was never any real background investigation of Belnap and we face the issue that a non conspiratorial person would write it off as closed after the FBI inteview while others of us would like to know who his friends, associates, hang outs etc were and wether someone arranged for him just to pull a minor stunt that day which ended up being a lot more serious than just that. Of course that could be said for others as well. But without knowing any real background on these folks its a toss of the dice. For me the pattern of fake ambulance calls to the cornor of Elm and Houston causes me to treat the incident as suspicious. The same could be said for the stalled pick up down by the overpass which diverted police before the motorcade arrived. There just seem to be a lot of coincidences in the Plaza that day in the hour or so around the time of the motorcade. -- Larry

William, its been years since I really got into this guy but my recollection was that he had indeed observed some funny things going in Mexico City and that he was indeed corroborating Nagell's remarks, especially in regard to things at the Hotel Luma. Things get strange though because most of the information was surfacing during correspondance that he was conducting while in prison - with a penpal. And its clear that at points he was pulling the fellow's string and playing games with him, either for entertainment or more possibly to get outside assistance with his ongoing legal appeals. You really have to read the first book to get a feel for this, and the first book is written by his correspondant. One area that possibly could be corroborated is his claim that he was moved into a cell adjacent to Nagell out in Texas in an effort for certain parties (read the FBI) to find out what Nagell might say to someone he had met before. If one could prove that happened then at least his information on Nagell and remarks about Oswald in Mexico would call for some heavy investigation. -- hope that helps, Larry

I would definitely suggest that anyone interested read the first book as a benchmark before going off on the second one. It's quite interesting and actually deals far more with Oswald and events at the Hotel Luma and Richard Case Nagell in Mexico ...there is only a minor reference at the very end to his having the "opinion" that the mob must have done JFK. At that point in time he made it clear he had nothing more to say....guess something changed his mind.... Larry