Larry Hancock

No Oswald was not stupid at all, the explanation for his behavior is far to complex for forum posts. Of couse I disagree with Paul on his sponsors, but my version of exactly what Oswald was doing in Mexico City is in NEXUS so I don't need to belabor it here. Fortunately Bill Simpich will carry the ball forward and publish ground breaking research on exactly what was going on in Mexico City, hopefully by the end of the year. Oswald stupid, no way, Inexperienced, a bit gullible and with a limited knowedge of what was going on around him...yes. Did he think he was going on to Cuba as a follow on to his trip to Mexico City - no. Did he think someone might be taking him covertly into Cuba in late November - very possibly. Why I think that is in my books, thank goodness I don't have to keep repeating it...grin. -- Larry

Greg, I'm certainly right with you on that view....and as to Paul, yes there were a couple of sources who provided information that Oswald was receiving at least modest payments following his return from the Soviet Union...and Geg, thanks for the kind words on the books. Amazingly this looks like one area that at least some number of CT folks might agree on. Larry

Tommy, the bar girls may have underwritten some of the cost or its very possible that once he reported the contact to ONI he received some funds to continue dangling himself. I think DeMohrenschieldt's (sp?) description of Oswald as a proto hippie is right on....Oswald enjoyed new experiences and was quite bright when he wanted to be...he also got himself in lots trouble (I knew those same sorts of guys in college a few years later...grin). If you read his monograph you see he was definitely anti Soviet and anti CPUSA...but then within months he's writing CPUSA about going underground. Clearly there are games in progress. He just didn't realize how risky it all could be....

Tommy, first off I think my buddy Bill Simpich is going to give a much clearer picture of the Russian affair than I can...hopefully he will be in print by the end of the year. But since you asked, my impression is that Oswald was being used from the beginning, an outgrowth of his earlier volunteer informant activities with the bar girls in Japan, in a very low level inelligence ploy...positioning him as a "student" rather than a "defector". There were a series of programs of that nature in play and I think Oswald's interest in schooling in Europe was directed that way.... Certain circumstances that Bill is going to detail got him summarily redirected and moved quickly to Moscow where he was under real pressure to be taken as a legitimate defector (that wrist slashing incident was no joke). In general I think all of Oswald's various activities were with him as a "volunteer" but with many games going on around him about which he had no clue....as with most such games, the best and most reliable intelligence ploy of that nature is to find a viable volunteer and let him dangle himself. You just have to watch. You don't even have to have any direct contact....Oswald's manuscript which he produced after his return was a beautiful debrief including on the Minsk factory. In a way then I would agree with John, Oswald was on his way to Europe for one purpose, and a new operation was built around him while that was in progress. But having multiple games in play is not unique. We have documents showing that when Richard Case Nagell showed up in Mexico City one of the first things he did was go to the American Embassy, tell them he was going to defect and provide classified information to a foreign nation. There is no record he was ever investigated over that so one can probably conclude it was part of a dangle operation to see if the KGB was doing to the US (in Mexico City) what the CIA was doing to the Cubans and Soviets there. -- Larry

David, I suggest you encourage Greg Burnham to join in this discussion. Its just possible that some of that may have been related to operating those big cycles at relatively low speeds, espcially during limo turns and such. Greg would be the one with the experience to comment on that point. -- Larry

Tommy, we have learned a ton of things that are relevent to the question - but a great deal of that comes fro Cold War history not anything specific to Oswald or JFK documents. That means it takes a much broader view of the history of the period before some of the things that were mysterious even in the early 90's begin to be a bit less so. In this instance I would refer you and everyone else to two fine books dealing with surveillance flights over the USSR, which provide extensive detail on the U-2 program and the events that led to Powers downing. Dark Eagles by Curtis Peebles, 1995 Shadow Flights also by Curtis Peebles, 2002 The Soviets knew exactly how high the U2 was flying, they had detected it on its very first flight, their radars were quite powerful and had the altitude to do that and signals intelligence monitored Soviet military traffic referring to it on virtually every flight. Efforts to "stealth" the U-2 were only mildly successful. That's why everyone knew those last few flights were such a risk, it was just a matter of when and were the Soviets might manage to launch their newest generation of SAM's against it. -- Larry

It could be a very simple process... If you find something that you feel is not factual or has an issue of interpretation all you have to do is quote it and list out what you feel is the contradictory point or source. I've done that a couple of times recently and the poster has accepted it in the manner it was intended. Thing is, you have to stop after you do that. It could be that way, I doubt that it will. The whole subject has become world view and agenda driven...in some cases far more than agenda but at the crusade level. The whole concept of live and let live died a while back, not sure exactly when. I saw a sports T shirt the other day and the wording pretty well sums up where we have arrived - "If you aren't a winner, your'e a loser". Everything is competition, everything is conflict. It could be simple, but I suppose the idea of "Its not whether you win or lose but how you play the game" is way too old school. Larry

That's probably a good synopsis Paul, at one level Oswald's military background made him at least a bit interesting but there was no real risk - there is some discussion that a lot of work had to be done to change passwords and such for the defense zone around Oswald's last station but to my understanding those things change periodically anyway for security reasons. All the mystery stuff about Oswald and the U2 sounded more likely a few decades ago before we have the history under our belts that we do now...showing the Soviets had been tracking the exact flights of the plane for years. They just needed a new SAM, not any input from Oswald. They knew exactly where the U2 was, hitting it or anywhere near it was the problem. And of course Oswald didn't have to be an "active" intelligence asset, as a passive actor he would produce information simply by monitoring of how the Soviets reacted to him. We've learned a lot about the college and foreign exchange dangle programs into the Soviet Union in the last few years and Greg Parker has done some great stuff there if memory serves. Its probably also worth noting that Oswald's own manuscript, prepared after his return and while he was in Dallas, was an excellent debriefing document providing lots of info about the electronics factory in Minsk and other items of interest... -- Larry

OK, time for a bit of context here. Some have maintained that Oswald held a "crypto" clearance while at Atsuki. When I was in the Air Force the guys going through crypto school trained next to my class...they did work oprating and repariing crytographic encoding and decoding equipment. They had to hold crypt clearances, a level higher than Top Secret, because of the equipment they worked on but also because of what information might routinely pass through that equipment for encoding and decoding. Nothing to do with radar, code breaking, microdots etc. Oswald's work as a radar operator was that of access control, monitoring and clearing flights into and out of air defense zones. Because of that he would have known the capabilities of the radars he worked with, which were not long range air defense radars, but more importantly the radio exchange passwors and defense region codes and clearances used in handling flights. That information would have been secure and of value to the Soviets, ONI was concerned that Oswald might share' that and it was an issue after his defection. Oh, and yes, Oswald might have tracked U2's but only in the relatively limited ranges of the radars he was working... Oswald was a scope guy, his clearance would have had to do with the capabilities of his radars, the defense zones and general operations of such systems...personally I very much doubt he went to crypto or even TS although Secret would be reasonable. Clearances are assigned by what information you have access to, compartimenalized clearances get even more specific and deal with sources and projects. In any event, Oswald was no doubt a bright fellow but his Marine radar work was what it was, nothing more. -- Larry

Paul, I'm not goting into a lengthy dialog on this but I would encourage anyone following your thread who has SWHT to refer to Appendix H of SWHT, Odio Revisited. The point is that there is very good reason to reject everything about Hall and Howard having visited Odio at all - including Odio's being shown their photos and saying she had never seen them and they were not the men in question. The FBI itself continued its inquiry and proved that it was not those two at Odio's, but to avoid having to deal with the Warren Commissions having raised the issue, the rest of the FBI inquiry was never provided to the WC. I would have a lot more to say about the issue of anyone seriously using Hall as a source but we'll just let that lay. I have no real interest in becoming involved with the Walker discussion but introducing Hall and Howard and the Odio visit as a proof is a problem...at least for me. Having said that, I'll exit... -- Larry

Having had the opportunity to read just a bit of Gary's research I want to heartily recommend it. Its depth and detail is virtually unmatched. With luck it appears that we will finally be able to have Gary discuss some of it in person at the Dallas conference this fall. Gary has done a truely awesome job which serious researchers will greatly admire! -- Larry

B.A., based on the information that John Martino heard and related shortly before his death, Oswald was supposed to meet the folks he had been in contact with, and they would have disposed of him in some fashion which would have incriminated him and established a Castro/Cuban sponsorship to the assassination. Martino had no details on that since his role was quite peripheral, all the knew was that Oswald had been set up and was going to end up being part of the plan to frame Castro for Kennedy's murder... Anything beyond that would be speculation on my part, Larry

Well actually, we don't have to speculate if you are willing to at least consider two separate sources who completely and independently described the fact that Oswald was approached in New Orleans by Cuban exiles presenting themselves as Castro agents. Their goal was to set Oswald up as a patsy in an attack on the President...the first attack was planned for the DC area, and explains Oswald's sudden letters to the CP and SWP in that area, his mention of going underground and his talk about going up there including mention of getting a gun. That plan aborted in Sept but Oswald remained in touch with the individuals, in his role of an intelligence dangle. The same people contacting him in Dallas, they are the subversives mentioned in Hosty's remarks of Nov. 23. They set him up to leave Dallas that day but their overall plan fell apart when he figured out something had gone wrong upon hearing of the President's actually being shot and realized he couldn't trust anyone. Of course everyone is free to reject all that, my arguement supporting the scenario is in print, in rediculous detail. It is however a consistent explanation of his behavior and his being a patsy, beyond pure speculation and offered to those wanting to explore it. For everyone else, reject it at will...or trash the sources to your own satisfaction, my own justification for accepting them is also in print. -- Larry

Dawn, you had asked me a question while I was temporarily out of the fourm: "Larry I know you did some stuff on this case, (from years back) has she asked you for assistance? I helped all I could." ...actually I sent Joan all my own research material, files plus some very key video and document material on Wallace. I've worked with her on that plus sent her to Richard Bartholemew for info on the print studies. She has talked with him and reviewed material on that. She was also nice enough to let me recruit her to speak on Wallace at this year's conference as she is probably more current on the subject than anyone at this point and its something that keeps coming up. -- Larry

Bill, Stu did talk with the Justice Department officrer who heads the civil rights cold case unit and they have done investigations and briefed families on several of the unsolved civil rights murders; they have also done a couple of successful prosecutions. Stu could give you more detail. The one case they will not look into is the MLK murder since they carry it as closed, not open, with Ray's conviction. -- Larry

Dawn, let me say I'm just passing along the latest news we have. Deb has been badgering (well at first not badgering but by now they certainly take it that way) the Mayor's office for months about open access. The story seems to be that the Major and City Council handed their responsibiloity off to this special prominent citizens cultural committee (read civic donations here) in an effort to make this a memorial event and clearly preempt assassination PR. Now of course that is unrealistic since a historian reading a speech about the Kennedy administration can hardly compete with the assassination story for press sensationalism so we will have air time...even if they just want to cover us as nuts. What appears to be the plan is that they will rope and barricade the Plaza area for "security" some time ahead of the official ceremony (claiming fear of tents and squatters), that they will control access to the official ceremony (to prevent heckling or embarassment for the prominent attendees) and once they have all done their duty...some time that afternoon, their will be general access....and when its all over the poor lady who is caught in between this as the Mayor's assignment will liley be wishing she had taken a different route in her career at this point in time. Its pretty clear what the prominent city leaders were thinking about - preemption of the assassination story with a Kennedy administration and cultural one - but that's not going to fly in 2013. To some extent they have dug themselves a hole.....and this time at least they will not be able to understate the size of the crowds in Dallas for the anniversary.

Dawn, the whole ticket nonsense does seem to be a Dallas state secret. I'm not sure they have a clue themselves. What we seem to be getting now is that they are going to keep everyone but ticket holders out until their official ceremony is over and then everybody can go in....which should make for a nicely chaotic situation....no clue even as to how far away they are going to set up their barricades. They refuse to acknowledge the legal implications of the rulings related to Groden and they also can't seem to realize its unlikely the press will leave at the end of their ceremony and not stay to talk to us....after all we will probably be more entertaining. Anyway, we will certainly be their Friday, no doubt about that - as close as we can get. And when the barriers go down....just hope they don't issue bayonets to the DPD, that got really dangerous back in 69.... -- Larry

Dawn, I have shipped Joan all my Wallace material including notes, books and tapes. I also suggested she get in touch with Richard B on the print issues and she has done that. Since she has probably the most up to date grasp of all the Wallace issues I asked her to present on that at the Lancer conference; I suspect she would have enjoyed a less frustrating subject but she was kind enough to accept the challenge. It's not a easy task so I really appreciated her doing that and I'm sure it will be a real topic of conversation at the conference. Larry

Jim, this has come up in some other threads but basically we know that Frazier took the polygraph from an FBI memo on it, not a DPD report as far as I know. The FBI report discusses it and most importantly states that the original bag from the TSBD was taken to the polygraph session, showed to Frazier and he adamantly said it was not the bag carried by Oswald just that morning. Of course that may explain why the DPD side of the polygraph seems to have gone missing -- Anyway, that's my recollection of it. Larry

Dawn, I'll be there at the Lancer conference. I know several of the Ed Forum folks will be there as they are participating. We are still working on the schedule and more may be added but you can find a list at the link below. http://jfklancer.com/Dallas2013/speakers.html -- Larry

Michael, I don't really have any thoughts on it other than the fact that the quotes from the artist don't seem to say that it was JFK related, which I find strange. I only posted it in response Dawn's comment on wondering where he got it - its pretty clear where he got it, its not clear to me that its correct. -- Larry

Jeff's article includes the following source link.. http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/03/21/post-jfk-assassination-ballad-among-25-songs-to-be-preserved/

Paul, I certainly can't argue that there are a number of people that have their own agendas with the public school system and I think you have pointed out a very serious one that certainly still exists to a considerable extent....but as with many personal agendas its hard to know the real core issue. Racism and anti-Antisemitism has been part of it; fear of exposing children to other belief system and life styles is not uncommon. At the core although many will say its an academic concern, control and avoiding "contamination" of all sorts is obviously a core issue in many parental decisions. And politically, well that's another issue as well but lets just say that championing schools as better run by business people can make an interesting campaign plank. On another of your points... "Because of subsequent "taxpayer revolts" and incessant movements toward "charter schools" and "private schools" and "home schooling" and "school vouchers", it appears to me that California public schools are not what they used to be -- they don't resemble the schools that I attended from 1957 to 1970. In that regard, I certainly agree. Fragmentation and loss of financial support is a real threat to all our public efforts - from schools to roads. When people decide they don't want to pay to support a public resource and then complain about it going downhill, well talk about Catch 22. I will say though that speaking from personal experience, being on the board of the same school I graduated from in 1965, our school is far beyond where it was when I attended - we teach things in third grade I didn't get until 8th or 9th grade and we offer both college credit and votech credit to our high school students. They can easily earn a years worth of advanced college credits before they graduate high school. That's partially because Oklahoma has had a very strong Votech system which focuses on STEM (science and technology). As to testing, I know the situation exists but our testing is far more rigorous and demanding than when I was in school (good to be old). But of course that doesn't represent every school in the state; as with most things it comes down to the individual school and those involved....which is why I cringe when I see broad generalizations about American education or actually about almost anything. So having said all that I'll get off my soapbox and go have lunch.... Larry

Paul, as an elected public school board member for over a decade I'm going to take issue with a load of broad generalizations in this thread - I'm on the board in a small, very poor and very integrated school district in an extremely conservative state and county - yet our school has exceptional academic performance and no more security problems than when I attended it myself in the 1950's and 1960's. I would be the last to admit that in many areas there are major problems in public school education but if you really dig into the details you find the problems in the lack of a local tax base, school funding issues for new facility construction and a host of other individual problems rather than some "continuing massive resistance" to school integration. As far as the barbed wire schools you note, you bet...its the same situation you find in any area which has serious overallsecurity problems (Iraq comes to mind). The schools will reflect the level of security in their geography, no doubt about that.. It would be foolish to imagine there are not problems with integration but I think you stretch it too far - and I also think a great number of people write and expound on the failings of public education without sufficient data. I can tell you that in my state, as in many, there has been a rush to private and charter schools (perhaps some continuing resistance in that, no doubt) but if you look at the numbers objectively you find their overall academic results are no better than and in many cases worse than comparable public schools. Our small school outperforms a number of the very wealthy private charter schools in the state. All of which has nothing to do with Kennedy assassination research but shows that it is still possible to press my buttons in regard to public schooling and social justice issues I first became involved all the way back to the 1960/s ....grin. -- Regards, Larry

Michael, I've come across it ; http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Tattler%20National/Item%2024.pdf but never pursued it; if the folks i believe were involved were, they had their own resources - trusted resources, not folks like this. If the offer were made it could have been for many reasons, Anyway, not something i pursued. Larry