Paul Trejo

Jason,

You have again raised the Walker-did-it CT to a new level.   Fantastic work.   Your ability to filter through countless FOIA documents and the Mary Ferrell web site is a clear talent.

By showing that Dallas FBI agent James Hosty was directly involved in the denial of any dangers from the Radical Right that existed in Dallas in 1963, we are showing Hosty as directly next to the center of the JFK plot -- General Walker.   After all, the Dallas Minutemen were known as General Walker's boys.

When the Washington DC Secret Service was preparing to come to Dallas, they followed standard protocol and asked the Dallas FBI if there were any known dangers in Dallas, and whom they should visit and warn before they traveled so far.    The official word from James Hosty and Forrest Sorrells was: "there are no dangerous people in Dallas or Fort Worth."

This is not my opinion -- this was stated  multiple times in the Warren Commission, by multiple witnesses.

Now -- because of your work, Jason, we have further confirmation of this specific falsehood being spoon fed to the Washington DC Secret Service PRS (Protective Research Section).

The PRS always depended on the local FBI for their true records.   In this case, Hosty and Sorrell kept the truth from the PRS -- very deliberately.

Here -- obviously -- is the root of the US Government screw-up that led to JFK getting his head blown off in public.

So, this is superlative research and reporting on your part.

I should also point out here that the historical work by Chris Cravens (1993) shows that the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK poster was not only distributed on the streets of Dallas  on the morning of 11/22/1963, but it was also distributed in Dallas one month earlier, on the night of 10/24/1963, when Adlai Stevenson came to Dallas to speak for the United Nations, and was famously  humiliated by the residents of Dallas.

Yes -- this was the Minutemen at work.

All best,
--Paul

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

It seems at least one WC staffer thought DPD testimony was dishonest.

This is from a late 1964 internal FBI memo outlining gossipy dirt on WC staffers, presumably to discredit them if necessary:

 

Hi Jason,

Yes, that was attorney Burt Griffin, a WC investigator on the Jack Ruby case.   I am pleased to count Mr. Griffin as a friendly voice in my project to dig deeper into General Walker as a JFK plotter.   Mr. Griffin once asked me for some of General Walker's personal papers that I had found at UT Austin back in 2014.

Burt Griffin was the WC staffer to whom ATF agent Frank Ellsworth gave his account of the Minutemen and Walker as probably neck-deep in the JFK Assassination, and Mr. Griffin was also struck by the fact that Jack Ruby had named General Walker as well.

When I asked Mr. Griffin precisely why he had called a DPD officer a L-I-A-R, he was unwilling to share that information at that time -- because, IIRC, he was under contract for somebody else to publish his reasons.  Yet I never saw that explanation in print.   

If anybody else has seen it -- please share it.   If not, I will consider asking Mr. Griffin again.   He is a valuable JFK researcher, having served on the WC, and he is very open-minded.

All best,,
--Paul

19 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

Detective Sims supports Les Ellsworth's story at least as far as saying that ATF agent Frank Ellsworth was there pretty soon after the shell casings were found.  So, again, the stories of who was inside the TSBD after the assassination continue to multiply.

Warren Commission Hearings Volume 22, p. 512:

Hi Jason,

Great find.  This complicates matters ... Yet I will also note here that Police Chief Jesse Curry was not named in that report by Detective Sims (in contrast to the story by Les Ellsworth).

What struck me between the eyes in Sims' report, however, was that the alleged murder Rifle was found 5 feet from the WEST wall... As  Boyd had said!

All best,

--Paul

10 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

Besides offering a potential venue for the forgotten-box-in-the-attic of old family papers that I am hoping for, meaning a box of old papers that will help solve the assassination....notice how Ellsworth family lore indicates yet another version of how evidence was found in the TSBD in contrast to police and sheriff versions:

SOURCE: Raycom News Network: http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/24048974/etx-man-credited-with-finding-oswalds-gun-in-book-depository

Hi Jason,

One of the quirks in the story of Frank Ellsworth's son a generation later, is that he says that the "Police Chief" led his father into the TSBD building.

I realize that this son credits his father with finding the sniper's nest and the Oswald rifle -- but I think that is simply a time-compression account of events, leaving out the "unimportant" characters, like the Dallas DPD and Deputies.   

What is more upsetting to me is his claim that the "Police Chief" led Ellsworth into the building.  Because the "Police Chief" was Jesse Curry, and he denied going into the TSBD building on 11/22/1963.

So -- if Les Ellsworth's story has any merit -- it might go like this: (1) Jesse Curry led Frank Ellsworth into the TSBD the next day; (2) while there, Frank examined the sniper's nest area, and the place where the Dallas Deputies found the alleged assassination rifle; and (3) back at DPD headquarters, Curry showed Frank the alleged Oswald rifle, and asked him to research the source of its bullets and other ballistics data.

As time-and-character compression it makes sense.   Otherwise, it's sort of family-inflating and fictional sounding, IMHO.

I think this goes back to our earlier discussion about demanding PRIMARY DOCUMENTS in the context of the JFK Assassination -- as far as possible.

All best,
--Paul

22 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

...I think I'll do a FOIA on more Ellsworth-produced Minutemen/Walker documents.

1. From Peter Dale Scott's Deep Politics and the Death of JFK (1993), p 255.

2. From Mary and Ray La Fontaine's, Oswald Talked: the New Evidence in the JFK Assassination (1996), p. 374

3. From a 1994 Washington Post article by the La Fontaines.

4. August 1964 FBI Airtel: 

5. April 1964 FBI memo captioned "MINUTEMEN"

•  Dallas Minuteman John Masen's illegal gun trade was active at a very interesting moment in history; also note the interesting day that Ellsworth met with Hosty to talk about Masen's arrest:

 6. ARRB FINAL REPORT (1998)

• Minutemen John Masen supplies guns to the DRE - home of General Walker's friend Carlos Bringuier

Hi Jason,

I look forward to your FOIA results for documents on ATF Agent Frank Ellsworth as it relates to General Walker and the Dallas Minutemen.

As Ellsworth told to the Warren Commission staff: An organization known as the Minutemen is the right-wing group most likely to have been associated with any effort to assassinate the president...The Minutemen are closely tied to General Walker...

We need more FOIA documents about General Walker and the Minutemen -- that is certain.    I would also seek further documentation about:

1.  Events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll
2.  Events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at the Texas School Book Depository building
3.  Events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at Oak Cliff's Texas Theater
4.  Events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at Ruth Paine's garage
5.  Events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at LHO's North Beckley address
6.  Events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at the Dallas City Jail.

The documents we have from the Warren Commission are woefully inadequate.   I would additionally like to see:

7.  Any semblance of correspondence between Chief Jesse Curry and General Walker
8.  Any semblance of correspondence between Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz
9.  Any semblance of correspondence between Sheriff Bill Decker and Chief Jesse Curry
10. Any semblance of correspondence between Sheriff Bill Decker and General Walker
11. Any semblance of correspondence between Captain Will Fritz  and Chief Jesse Curry
12. Any semblance of correspondence between Captain Will Fritz  and General Walker
13. Any correspondence between any of the above with Dallas FBI agent James Hosty.
14. Any correspondence between any of the above with Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels.

15. Membership list of the Friends of Walker in Dallas  (to cross-check against Dallas Police and Deputies)
16. Membership list of the Dallas Minutemen (to cross-check against Dallas Police and Deputies)
17. Membership list of the John Birch Society chapter led by General Walker (to cross-check against Dallas Police and Deputies)

Best wishes with your FOIA requests, Jason.

All best,
--Paul 

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

Because he appears as the author of many 1963-1964 government cables about the extreme Right in Dallas / Ft Worth, I will resurrect a name that pops up from time to time in JFKa literature: Frank Ellsworth.   

This ATF agent is concerned with the illegal weapons trade and has developed a strong informant in the Minuteman.  He's also tracking John Thomas Masen and an effort by anti-Castro Cubans to obtain a large stockpile of guns.  Finally, he was in Dealey Plaza, met with Hosty, and searched the TSBD on 22 November 1963.  Interesting guy?

[Paul Trejo - whatever else we may think of the La Fontaines, their two points below are indirectly supported by ATF documents I've found.   The Minutemen, Walker, Masen, Surrey, and friends all controlled stockpiles of illegal, military grade weapons.  This was for their planned takoever of the communist US government, but it also attracted the interest of anti-Castro Cubans.  Walker owned or controlled a ranch near Venus, Texas, where the Minutemen would practice shooting, it seems.]

I know that John Elrod's is an alcoholic and unreliable witness.  Even so, the salient points in his retelling of jail conversations is very much supported by 180+ ATF documents I've read, mostly written by Frank Ellsworth in pursuit of the DFW weapons trade.  Whether or not Elrod heard this information in jail, whether or not he talked to or about Oswald & Ruby, the gun trade in Dallas story makes a lot of sense.  There was an active weapons trade among the far right in Dallas, aka the Minutemen.  Perhaps there is a glimmer of truth in here somewhere?  

Hi Jason,

Yes, ATF agent Frank Ellsworth is a vital source for those seeking any connection between General Walker and the JFK Assassination.  In this regard, Frank Ellsworth also names the Minutemen.

We can compare the affidavit that Ellsworth supplied to the WC with Jack Ruby's WC testimony -- both named Walker in connection with the JFK Assassination, but Ruby added the John Birch Society, while Ellsworth added the Minutemen.

I will cite Harry Dean here -- because his account in Southern California, where he saw General Walker -- was in the context of both the Minutemen and the John Birch Society.    Some writers have said that the Minutemen were the "armed cadre" of the John Birch Society.

All best,
--Paul

What was disappointing about these Dallas files, was their intensive focus on Jack Ruby.

In my CT, Jack Ruby had nothing whatsoever to do with the JFK Assassination.   Jack killed Lee Harvey Oswald -- which is a totally different murder.

What we should be seeking from Dallas is this:

1.  Documents about the events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll

2.  Documents about the events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at the Texas School Book Depository building

3.  Documents about the events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at Oak Cliff's Texas Theater

4.  Documents about the events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at Ruth Paine's garage

5.  Documents about the events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at LHO's North Beckley address

6.  Documents about the events and Dallas official participants on 11/22/1963 at the Dallas City Jail.

The documents we have from the Warren Commission are woefully inadequate.   I would especially like to see:

7.  Any semblance of correspondence between Chief Jesse Curry and General Walker

8.   Any semblance of correspondence between Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz

9.   Any semblance of correspondence between Sheriff Bill Decker and Chief Jesse Curry

10.   Any semblance of correspondence between Sheriff Bill Decker and General Walker

11.   Any semblance of correspondence between Captain Will Fritz  and Chief Jesse Curry

12.   Any semblance of correspondence between Captain Will Fritz  and General Walker

13.   Membership list of the Friends of Walker in Dallas  (to cross-check against Dallas Police and Deputies)

14.   Membership list of the Dallas Minutemen (to cross-check against Dallas Police and Deputies)

15.   Membership list of the John Birch Society chapter led by General Walker (to cross-check against Dallas Police and Deputies)

If we can't get these documents, then IMHO we are spinning our wheels and merely reviewing data we've seen for the past 55 years.  Seeking in vain for some connection between Jack Ruby and the JFK Assassination has proved fruitless for 55 years.   When will CTers realize that it's time to research the Dallas Police and Deputies?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

21 hours ago, Roger DeLaria said:

Jason,

I'm just getting into Leander Perez, Boss of The Delta, and some early tidbits tie into this, I think. 

Paraphrased from the book:

Leander was raised a strict catholic, and for him, religion was a bulwark of the status quo. When it became a force for progress and civil rights, he rejected it. 

Perez was clearly not in line with JFK's agenda.

Roger

Roger,

There is a section on Louisiana and Leander Perez.In the academic book, Citizens Council (1971) by Neil R. McMillan.  This book chronicles the birth and spread of the White Citizens Council organization starting in Mississippi in 1955, in reaction to Earl Warren's Brown Decision for public school integration.-

That section tells of the League of Catholic Men (IIRC) in Louisiana who formed their own Citizens Council in order to prevent the racial integration of Catholic Schools.  Leander Perez was one of their sponsors.  They were active in local government until the Catholic Bishop of that Diocese told them that if they persisted in this anti-Christian nonsense, that they would all be excommunicated.  They quickly disbanded.

There was possibly a majority of Catholics in Louisiana; then as now.

Yet that didn't stop Guy Banister from pursuing the White Citizens Councils in Louisiana among Protestants.  Even then he made little progress until he linked his Racism with Anticommunism.   His slogan was, "Race-mixing is Communist!"    He really believed the Brown Decision was a Soviet plot to undermine the USA.   According to Jeff Caufield --- Ex-General Walker believed that, too.

So did many Minutemen. 

The Minutemen, as Harry Dean, told me personally, as a former member of the Minutemen, had the main motivation of Anticommunism -- coast to coast.   The Cubans were going to invade Our Town, USA.   (We see this same spirit in the 1984 movie, Red Dawn, starring Patrick Swayze; yes, it took 20 years to finally get this script plot into Hollywood.   IMHO, this movie is crucial if we want to understand the Yankee-style Minutemen, coast to coast.)   

Racism was not the main part of it -- unless you could link Race integration in with Communism in some twisty way.

But if we want to understand the Minutemen of the South, specifically, we should also look more closely into the White Citizens' Councils (1955-1975), because these groups were among the key sponsors of the speeches of General Walker in the South.

All best,
--Paul

41 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

This 1964 FBI report from a pair of confidential informants is probably the most direct evidence I've seen connecting Walker's Dallas area Minutemen chapter to the assassination.  Whether or not this is a true or false Oswald sighting, why would two informants suggest the Minutemen were involved in the assassination? 

<snip>

Hi Jason,

I appreciate your innovative digging into the role of General Walker in the JFK Assassination.  

JFK CTers have not spent a fraction of time needed, digging into the Dallas Minutemen.    Fifty-five years have passed, and perhaps CTers are finally ready to explore the possibility that Dallas alone killed JFK.

The Dallas Radical Right, of whom the Minutemen were the most heavily armed and organized in a paramilitary manner, right there in Dallas, were also involved with the Dallas Police Department.   We know this from FBI agent William Turner (1971).

Knowing the personal history of General Walker, we can see why he was important to the Minutemen.  He was a former US General in WW2 and Korea, and he was beloved by the Radical Right, even after he lost his campaign for Texas Governor in May 1962, because in September 1962 he led the Minutemen in marching against JFK's support of James Meredith at Ole Miss University.

There were riots at Ole Miss, and hundreds were wounded while two were killed.   James Meredith was admitted to Ole Miss as a student, under armed guard -- while JFK and RFK sent General Walker to an insane asylum for a 90 day observation.   Walker's friends got him out in four days, and by January 1963, Walker was acquitted of all charges.   He was finished in mainstream American politics, but he was hailed as the leader of the racist Radical Right coast to coast.

Walker was offered the title of Grand Dragon of the KKK, but he turned it down.   Nevertheless, he was perhaps one of the most beloved members of the Minutemen, coast to coast.   Minutemen as far west as Harry Dean and Loran Hall in Southern California had seen Walker in the context of Radical Right rallies.   Walker was also well-known in Louisiana radical politics, by such figures as Kent Courtney and Leander Perez.

Many CTers today claim that General Walker was a "crazy old coot" but they don't know the history.  They remain blinded by the fact that JFK and RFK had sent Walker to an insane asylum.   They stop looking at Walker at that point (end of 1962) and they fail to track Walker and his Dallas Minutemen throughout 1963.

Jeff Caufield (2015) linked General Walker also with 544 Camp Street in NOLA, along with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Guy Banister, David Ferrie and Clay Shaw.  The Minutemen were a coast to coast operation.    And it was a Minuteman who took a home movie of the bullet holes in Walker's house in Dallas, and then his airplane flight to New Orleans to film Lee Harvey Oswald handing out FPCC fliers on Canal Street.   

The Minutemen under General Walker are front and center in the JFK assassination in Dallas -- and yet the JFK CTer research into them is only just beginning after more than a half-century.   That's the status, and I can't find enough words to encourage your digging, Jason.   Please keep digging.

All best,
--Paul

31 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

43 guest on line at the moment.  3 members.  Are the guests finding relevant interesting information that might entice them to read further?

It's a good question.   We used to see statistics, didn't we?   How many reads on each thread?   I don't see that anymore.   

What are the statistics of readership on the Forum today?    

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

On 3/24/2018 at 5:31 PM, Jason Ward said:

 

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 9 Dallas Police Department Detective Elmer Boyd

DPD Det. Boyd, age ~35

CONCERNS

1. Boyd offers several contradictions as to what happened and when towards the end of Friday night
2. It is hard to believe that a suspect in a famous case is getting interrogated but Boyd does not remember what was said
3. Boyd's activities at the TSBD are described in no detail, except that Boyd says the rifle is found in the SOUTHWEST corner and not the SOUTHEAST corner as others testify
4. Boyd says they hear about Oswald's arrest while in Sheriff Decker's office; then he changes this story to indicate he was actually on the 6th floor
5. Is visiting Sheriff Decker's office part of Fritz's testimony?   Is there some type of secret meeting in Decker's office no one is supposed to mention?
6. Boyd's version of Oswald's time at DPD headquarters suggests Oswald was denied immediate access to a lawyer, while Fritz says LHO was offered a lawyer repeatedly
7. How does Boyd have a few exact quotes from Oswald but for the most part claims he remembers nothing Oswald says?
8. The address on Beckley is provided by Oswald says Boyd, versus various other sources of this address in other testimony
9. Boyd's claim of neither finding nor collecting anything of interest at the Beckley rooming house is suspicous
10. Boyd seems to want to paint Oswald as trained and prepared for the interrogation, which apparently echos Capt Fritz's claim that Oswald appears trained by the Russians 

Overall, Lt Boyd does not present anything remarkable - except of course his remarkable inability to remember who was present at Oswald's interrogations and what was said.  Does Boyd have a habit in his testimony of letting a little bit of the factual sequence of events slip out unedited, only to realize a few seconds later he needs to correct himself to maintain the master story?

Hi Jason,

Once again, many thanks for your hard work on summarizing and analyzing the WC testimony of DPD Detective Elmer Boyd.   He regularly accompanied DPD Captain Will Fritz on assignment in the DPD Homicide Bureau.   He had seen his share of grisly murders in his few years at the side of Will Fritz.

I especially appreciate your concerns here.   They closely match my own concerns.

1.  Boyd contradicts many others in his testimony.   We must keep a finger on Boyd's WC testimony, and return to it often.   Though his memory seems poor, he kept a running log of times of specific activities regarding the JFK assassination around the TSBD and when Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) was in DPD custody.

1.1.  For me, the first thing that stood out was the timing of the announcement when Will Fritz was told at the Trade Mart that JFK had been shot.   Will Fritz said it was only about five minutes after the shooting; 12:35 pm.   Elmer Boyd recorded the time as 12:40 pm.   In the case of the JFK Assassination, five minutes makes a big difference.

2.   I find it absolutely impossible to believe that Boyd couldn't remember what LHO said -- especially since he often remembers phrases word for word. 

3.   As for Boyd saying they found the rifle at the SOUTHWEST corner of the 6th floor, I will let that slide as mere sloppiness.     

4.   The fact that Boyd told two stories about when he heard that LHO  was arrested is too weird.  I will not let that slide.

4.1.   The accounts so far say that after the rifle was found (around 1:20 pm) Will Fritz got LHO's address from Roy Truly and then left.   Right around 1:30 perhaps.

4.2.    Yet LHO was surrounded at the Texas Theater around 1:50 pm.   News of his arrest would have been broadcast between 1:50 and 2pm. 

4.3.   So, given these estimates (which I will happily change upon further material evidence) it seems unlikely that Boyd heard of LHO's arrest at the TSBD.

4.4.  It is more likely that Boyd heard of it at Decker's office, across the street.   That was his first report.  I think that was an honest memory.

4.5.   If so, then the question remains -- why did he change his story so quickly about what happened at Sheriff Decker's office??

5.  Your question is excellent, Jason -- because visiting Sheriff Decker's office after the TSBD visit forms no part at all in Fritz's testimony!!   Nor Decker's!!

5.1.   Why does Fritz not mention it?   Or Decker?

5.2.   Now look back at Boyd's opening statement --when he, Fritz and Sims leave Parkland Hospital, they take Sheriff Decker with them! 

5.3.  That's pretty important to me.   I wonder why Fritz omitted it.   Decker, too.

5.4.  Also remember the WC testimony of Deputy Boone -- when he looked out the window to boast that he found the cartidges (1:12 pm) he saw Fritz and Decker talking on the sidewalk below.

5.5.   Will Fritz doesn't mention this, either.

5.6.   So, Will Fritz omitted that (a) he drove with Decker from Parkland Hospital; (b ) he conversed with Decker below the TSBD; and (c) he visited Sheriff Decker's office with Boyd after leaving the TSBD. 

5.7.   Boyd, who keeps the log of case activity, knew all of this -- but he is the only one who told the WC.

5.8.   I get a similar suspicion that you expressed, Jason -- there was a secret meeting in Decker's office that Boyd should not have mentioned. 

5.9.  Boyd's "taking back" that he first heard of LHO's arrest at Decker's office scrambles our timeline.   

5.10.   Boyd meant, I suppose, to minimize the actual length of that meeting at Decker's office (perhaps from 1:30 until 2:15, at the outside).  

5.11.  By claiming that he heard of LHO's arrest at the TSBD, Boyd was suggesting that he and Fritz stayed at the TSBD until 2pm (though the rifle was found at 1:22).   

5.12.   This would make the visit with Bill Decker some short and sweet paper signing -- and not a strategy meeting, as 45 minutes could suggest.

6.  Boyd says that LHO was denied immediate access to a lawyer, while Fritz says LHO was offered a lawyer repeatedly.   Boyd accidentally tells the truth, IMHO.

7.   Boyd is lying, IMHO, about remembering nothing that LHO said, and about remembering none of the questions LHO was asked. 

8.  The address on Beckley is provided by Oswald says Boyd, contradicting various other testimonies.   Boyd wanders off the script, IMHO.   

8.1.   Specifically, Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes will tell a long and involved story about how he discovered the Beckley address, and turned it over to the DPD.

9.   I believe Boyd found nothing of interest at the Beckley rooming house, because he was in the second team that went there -- the first team took every last thing.

10.  By painting LHO as a trained spy, Boyd joins the Dallas Radical Right in painting LHO as a Communist.  This, I say, will be the main mark of the JFK plotters. 

My suspicion is similar to yours, Jason.   There is a "Master Story" that all the Dallas cops and Deputies are supposed to stick to, and some wander off script.  Boyd is one of them, and his witness is crucial, because he is the log keeper for Fritz.  By exposing the triple connection between Fritz and Decker (which neither Fritz nor Decker admit in their WC testimony), Boyd gave us our closest notion of collusion so far.

All best,
--Paul

8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

You don't have J.C. Day on this list, but I am curious about him since he is presented numerous times in police testimony as the crime scene investigator.  His job is to process evidence, take photographs, collect fingerprints.   All the testimonies about finding the shell casings and the gun end when the police say Day takes over.

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 8 

Dallas Police Department Crime Scene Investigator Lt. J.C. Day

                                                                                                                                       <snip>

CONCERNS:

1. There is NO documented chain of evidence for the gun or the bullets.  They could have been manipulated, replaced, or who knows? at any time.
2. The boxes were obviously re-arranged by the time Day photographed them as a press photograph shows the boxes in a different arrangement
3. Fritz's testimony suggests Oswald was not fingerprinted until after midnight, yet Day says Oswald was fingerprinted 3 times and Day has his fingerprints before midnight
4. Why does Fritz keep the bullet discharged from the found rifle - isn't this Day's job?
5. Day is proactively confronted by WC attorney Belin for having two different stories between the initial investigation by WC staff and the time Day gives formal testimony - in particular, Day has to retract his original statement that he marked the shell casings when they were found at TSBD....in other words...DID DAY FIND SHELL CASINGS AT THE TSBD, MARK THEM, AND THEN HAVE THEM REPLACED LATER TO MATCH THE FOUND RIFLE?
6. Capt. Fritz and all previous police officers on the 6th floor admit there was some confusion as to the found rifle being a Mauser and that one or more officers called it a Mauser: why does Lt. Day deny any mention of the word Mauser on the 6th floor?
7. Why does Day order a paraffin if he doesn't think they can show if someone has fired a rifle as he testifies?
8. What else puts nitrates on hands besides firing a pistol?  Eating bacon?
9. Day's testimony that he finds tape in the TSBD shipping department matching the tape found on the brown paper bag is very convenient but suspicious
10. It seems to me a lot of holes in the physical evidence (guns, shells, boxes, prints) had to be sloppily explained during this WC testimony - and Lt. Day is unconvincing, especially since he initially claimed he marked all evidence found at TSBD but later says he did not.

My number one take away from Lt Day is that boxes were moved before he got there.  My second take away is that the shell casings found in the TSBD are probably not the shell casings officially entered into evidence.  My third take away is that Lt Day did not get the agreed-upon-story straight regarding the identification of the rifle as a Mauser.  Finally, when and if Oswald was fingerpinted is in dispute between Fritz and Day.  

Day's testimony is a complete disaster.

Hi Jason,

It often seemed to me that Lieutenant John Day is willfully blind to the events.   He is not a JFK plotter (I say cautiously) but he will never accuse his fellow police officers of illegal activities, either.  He is a Team Player, and he seems willing to excuse every anomaly in the JFK case as simple "incompetence," or "irrelevance" and quickly move on to the next question.

 It seems to me that Lieutenant Day regards himself as 'better' than the average DPD cop, and even better than the higher level brass.  After all, he is a technician, with scientific training in identification, crime scene control, and photography.   His scope is well-defined, and after all, he can't help it if these "lesser educated" officers don't understand the basics of crime scene control.

Yet he will not criticize anybody openly -- these other officers are also honorable men -- they put their lives at risk on the street everyday.   So, in the interest of unity and the spirit of camaraderie, Lieutenant Day will "see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil."    Even when the evidence is right in his face. 

Perhaps Day is an 'accessory after the fact.'    Yet I sort of doubt that the JFK plotters would select a scientific man as an initial accomplice -- way too critical.

All best,
--Paul

10 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

I think you need more evidence. 

I'm waiting for a response on a couple of FOIA requests I submitted around known far right figures in Dallas, but I wonder where else evidence might be found if not in FBI files?

Below is a condensed version of the 5 page summary of Captain Fritz's testimony I've worked on for the last few days.   He's just really nonresponsive in places and resists providing details around Oswald's time in custody.  His explanation of how he found the Beckley address is at odds with other police testimony.   He has trouble providing a coherent sequence of events and resists pinpointing exact times.  He claims he cannot remember who else was with him at times when he was talking to Oswald.   He glosses over his involvement at the TSBD.

I'd say Captain Frtiz's testimony along with Constable Weitzman's testimony is the weakest and should be subject to the most scrutiny.   I'd say where he is weak and floundering is where he wants to hide something.  Of course the 45 pages of his testimony serves to mute both his subtle missteps and make it hard to form broad impressions.  The interjection of Bernard Weissman into the questioning by John J McCloy is baffling!

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 7: DPD Captain Fritz continued from above

<snip>

CONCERNS:

• Is Fritz concerned other officers are going to report their own questions and answers from Oswald?  Fritz simply refuses to say who exactly talked to Oswald and what questions others may have asked.
• Why is Oswald arraigned in Fritz's office and not open court?
• Fritz is insistent no one would have seen Oswald even if they had been on the 6th floor because of the intricate box arrangement - does Fritz want to immune the official story from questions of how Oswald could not have been seen?
• Why does Fritz claim he is unable to remember what was said during which interrogation (especially from Hosty & Bookhout), yet at other times he claims he remembers which interrogation certain questions were asked?
• Are all DPD interrogations in this era missing information about time and the exact questions/answers made during the interrogation?
• Why does WC attorney Ball have to help Fritz get the story of the bus transfer straight?
• How does Fritz know so quickly to ask about a rifle being ordered to a PO box?  How did this evidence appear so fast?
• Why are we not told the results of TSBD employee Junior's questioning, i.e, did he eat lunch with Oswald?
• Oswald denying his stay at the Neely St apartment does not at all make sense - is Fritz trying to paint LHO as trying to hide Neely?
• Is there evidence of DPD recording other witness/defendant statements on a tape recorder in this era?
• *Fritz's testimony about Brennan not being at any lineup with Oswald* is pivotal.  Fritz practically admits Forrest Sorrels had records changed to show Brennan identified Oswald in a lineup (Volume 4, p 237)  
• Why is Fritz secretly listening to FBI agents phone calls and why is he admitting it?
• Where in the heck does Fritz get the idea that Oswald has had training in sabotage while in Russia?
• Fritz is trying hard to say Oswald had KGB training in the USSR and repeatedly insists Oswald killed Kennedy for Castro.
• What evidence does Fritz use to conclude that he thinks Oswald killed Kennedy to support Castro?
• Fritz has an amazing ability to remember JFK's speeches on Cuba that allegedly provoke Oswald to shoot Walker and then Kennedy, but Fritz can't remember the time of day or the length of time he questioned Oswald
• Why does Fritz interject without being asked that Oswald believes LBJ will continue JFK's polices?
• If Fritz did not know Tippit at all, how can Fritz say whether or not Fritz knew Ruby?
• How does Fritz know on 22 November in the afternoon all the facts of the assassination such that he is sure Roger Craig's story is untrue?  Why is Fritz hostile to Craig by mid-afternoon of the 22nd instead of treating him as another witness in an investigation?
• How can a 40 year police officer like Fritz claim he has no ability or habit of recording time and dates?
• How does Fritz remember the details of a minor player in all this -Bernard Weissman- but can't remember important details like who was present when Oswald was questioned? 
• Why does McCloy ask about Weissman of all people in this case?  Is it just possible that McCloy suspects Fritz is connected to the radical right?

PS - One thing I'm noticing is that WC testimony confusingly jumps around between 3 separate crimes - the murders of Kennedy, Oswald, and Tippit.   There's a lot of focus on Oswald's murder and the security arrangements of the jail transfer, somewhat less focus on the Kennedy security arrangements, and officer Tippit's death (along with most everything that happens in Oak Cliff) is minimally talked about in testimony.

PPS - I think this has to be manged in modules.   It's sloppy to simultaneously compile the story of 3 murders simultaneously.   For now, I think we must extract and distill the testimony of the JFK murder only.  More specifically, I think we must focus on the TSBD and Oswald in Oak Cliff.   I say this knowing that Tippit's murder and Oswald's execution give important clues to Kennedy's assassination.

jw

Hi Jason,

You're right -- I need more evidence.   Yet your willingness to carefully review the WC testimony of the Dallas Police and Deputies is helping to gain that evidence -- always sitting there, which Americans have been willfully ignoring for 55 years, because the prospect of law-abiding citizens killing JFK out of political conviction is too painful to observe.

I think you have summarized the problems in Will Fritz's WC testimony superbly.   I have nothing to add, really -- except to assure you that the problems will become even more clear when we review the WC testimony of those whom he names as also present during the interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald.   Do not expect answers -- expect to see more problems -- and the same problems expanding in detail and shape.

Your scholarship is second to none on this Forum these days -- I declare.

All best,
--Paul

P.S.   I agree that the WC testimony of Fritz -- like that of the WC generally -- jumps around fairly randomly between the murders of JFK, Tippit and Oswald.    The best way to make sense of the mess is to address the testimony in "modules" as you say -- that is -- select one murder at a time.    I would start with the JFK murder and set the others aside for awhile.   I also appreciate this special focus on the TSBD.   Here is where the problems show a profoundly twisted shape.

6 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

hi Paul

I would point out, re: DeMohrenschildt, that in his first statement after the assassination, appearing in a State Department airtel from Haiti, he says that "everyone" in Dallas believed that Walker staged the attempt on himself...

Hi Jeff,

George DM showed his hostility if not his hatred for General Walker by this statement.

It is surely an exaggeration, since Dallas had many members of the group named Friends of Walker.

Also, as FBI agent James Hosty reported in his book, Assignment Oswald (1996), General Walker had many followers in Dallas in a group called, the Minutemen.

Also, in his WC testimony (1964), George DM showed his hostility toward General Walker, as well.

Finally, in his manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy! (1977), George DM confesses that he used to call General Walker, "General Fokker" to Lee Harvey Oswald.

So, George DM's remarks about "everybody" in Dallas taking a dim view of General Walker must be taken with a grain of salt.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

On 3/22/2018 at 10:22 PM, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul, I think this is a good time to reflect on the Dallas cops so far.  In any case, I had a pissy day at work and don't feel like research tonight.  IMO this forum needs about 10 x more research+evidence and about 10 x less opinion and brainstorming, but, we need to come up from the weeds every once in awhile.   

SO....a few subjective thoughts:

1. The idea of cops covering for other cops is completely familiar and believable.   1200+ Dallas cops can't all be in on the assassination but 1200 cops can keep their mouth shut or say what they're told to say.   Protecting other cops seems job 1 for cops, even today.
2. BUT, going along with the story or keeping quiet is quite a bit different from actively assassinating a US president.   I can accept most any cop taking money to overlook illegal gambling, prostitution, or liquor law violations.  I can accept the DPD overlooking whatever shady guys in town (like Ruby, the Campisi family, etc.) are up to in return for money, drinks, women...whatever.  But killing the president raises the level of crime and dishonesty to epic proportions.     My belief is that rational sane men are only threatening when they feel threatened.   I guess for me the only thing I can think of that might possibly allow me to think about killing another man is if he was an immediate threat to my family.  What can possibly be so threatening to Fritz and Curry and Decker that makes them think their best choice is to abandon the democratic process and go for a kill????
3.  Something is fishy in the 7 testimonies we've looked at together so far.  What's fishy is that they're all fishy in the same fishy points in their story.   Essentially, the TSBD is the common thread so far.  My impression is that there is an agreed-upon master story of what happened in the TSBD.  In the stress of testimony and given the not-too-intellectual mindset of some of these guys, the story falls apart around the details.   Helpfully, they aren't pressed on these details which any opposing counsel would tear apart - easily.  Why they went to the TSBD, who ordered them to the TSBD, the details around what happened on the 6th floor, the timing, the Beckley address...are all questions that it appears to me they forgot to remember when faced with WC attorneys....so there are some fudged details.  Details quickly overlooked.

Jason

more Fritz later

Hi Jason,

I agree with the spirit of your exclamation.   Yet as somebody who grew up in Los Angeles in the 1950's and 1960's -- I think I have some semblance of what it was like to live in the South.

The first thing is that the South still resents the Northern Yankee.   Many folks still keep a Confederate flag hanging in their garages, next to their classic Ford Mustang.

The so-called "Taxpayers Revolt" of Proposition 13 of 1972, was likely a strategy to de-fund Public Schools in protest of the 1954 Brown Decision to racially integrate Public Schools.   The bumper sticker and highway billboard, "Impeach Earl Warren" was still common around Los Angeles from 1955-1970, as I recall.

While Yankees try to remain oblivious to the US Radical Right -- mostly in the South -- the Radical Right rears its ugly head more and more often -- even in the 21st century.   It doesn't go away just because we try so hard to ignore it.

In my opinion, the Radical Right was a dominant current in the Dallas Police Force in 1963.  My evidence is from former FBI agent William Turner, and his book, Power on the Right (1971) which has a chapter with a focus on Dallas.   Dallas police in those days were recruited from the US Military, of course, as most police departments were -- however Dallas added a criterion.   Membership in the Minutemen, the KKK or the John Birch Society, was highly valued by the DPD, says William Turner.

So -- there was no corruption in the usual sense.  There's no bribery.   No favors offered -- no blackmail threatened.   This was all volunteer work -- and yes, I'm speaking of the JFK Assassination.   

Once somebody was led to honestly believe that JFK was a Communist and a Traitor to the USA, then the American Duty to shoot him dead if he ever came to Dallas became a categorical imperative.  It was not corruption -- it was Patriotism.    I'm not agreeing with this, yet as a former resident of Southern California from the 1950's through 1960's, I can affirm that many Southern gentlemen truly believed in this -- in their heart of hearts -- as a moral and ethical political opinion.   

OK, that's my response to your first two points above.   My response to your third point is simply to agree absolutely.   FISHY!  The TSBD building is indeed the common thread for the FISHY smell.  I applaud your instincts in your suspicion about some "Master Story" that is agreed-upon, but then under the pressure of official testimony, the "Master Story" falls apart, as you say, "around the details."

I applaud your recognition of all these factors.   I'm reminded of something that Allen Dulles once told his aide, Jacques Zwart: "The full answer to the JFK Assassination is in the pages of the Warren Report, but one must become an expert at hair-splitting."  (Zwart, Invitation to Hairsplitting, 1970).  Zwart's book sadly fell into the old, CIA-did-it trap, and his CT is paper-thin.  Dulles refused to give Zwart any clues at all.   The real clues, IMHO, have simply been ignored for 55 years.   The residents of Dallas killed JFK.   It's really that simple.

All best,
--Paul

7 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

...From what I can see, if your CT is correct that the DPD and sheriff's department are the primary workmen of the assassination, DPD Captain Fritz must be an essential man that day.   Fritz and Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker seem to run Dealey Plaza and especially the TSBD.

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 5: DPD Captain Fritz

...<Fritz gives direct testimony to the commission in WC Hearings VOL 4 and a deposition in Vol 14>

DIRECT TESTIMONY:                                    <snip>

•  LHO is initially asked basic questions about childhood, background, education

....I have to stop here for a moment. ...inexplicably without any formal documentation memorializing the Oswald interrogation.  *his explanation of how he obtained the Beckley address is confused and contradictory to other testimony*

Jason

Hi Jason,

In my theory, DPD Homicide Department Captain Will Fritz is one of the central conspirators of the JFK Assassination.  Next to him – at his level – are Sheriff Bill Decker and DPD Chief Jesse Curry.  They are the leaders of the Dallas Police and Deputies, and they are in the best position to control the stories coming out of their departments – as well as all the evidence, witnesses and their families, and the entire crime scene of Dealey Plaza.

For these old-fashioned Southern gentlemen, JFK was not only a Yankee Liberal, but probably was helping the Communists, as a former US General, namely Edwin Walker, had told them.   In my opinion, General Walker was the ideological leader of the JFK plotters through the vehicle of a particularly radical chapter of the John Birch Society in Dallas, led by General Walker and supported by Robert Alan Surrey. 

My main challenge is to prove that Chief Curry, Sheriff Decker and Captain Fritz were all willing to cooperate secretly with the Dallas Radical Right in a plot to kill JFK in Dallas.  The plot had multiple patsies in the wings, but the prize patsy was Lee Harvey Oswald, whom the Radical Right framed and manipulated ever since the attempted murder of General Walker in April 1963.  Before the month of April was over, Oswald was already in New Orleans – in their clutches.

Your summary of Captain Fritz’s Warren Commission (WC) testimony, Jason, stops about halfway, so that you can take a breath.   Fritz’s WC testimony is among the longest of them all, because he was so central to the custody of Lee Harvey Oswald.  

Again, in my reading of the same section that you read, Jason, I will attempt to find the benign explanation for all of Captain Fritz’ behavior during the weekend of 11/22/1963, and see what shakes out of this experiment.

1.     At 12:35, the SS tells Will Fritz of the JFK shooting   Chief Curry orders Fritz to Parkland Hospital, where JFK lies on a gurney, but Fritz is a homicide detective – not a bodyguard.

2.     Fritz arrives at Parkland at 12:45, where he hears the DPD radio transmission that DPD cops are gathering at the TSBD building.   Fritz tells Chief Curry that he will go there.   

3.     Fritz arrives at the TSBD at 12:58.  He and his men pull out their rifles, because of some official warning that the gunman might still be inside the TSBD.

4.     Fritz did not go inside quickly.  According to Deputy Boone, who found three bullet cartridges, Boone leaned out the window to announce to the world that he found the cartridges, and he saw Captain Fritz talking with Sheriff Decker on the sidewalk below him.  The official time for this was 1:15pm.   Apparently, Fritz and Decker were in no hurry to come upstairs.

5.     Fritz says a cop asked him if cops should seal the TSBD building; yet Inspector Herbert Sawyer already testified that he personally had the TSBD building sealed by 12:45.  To be generous, here, Fritz tries to take credit for everything.  I will let this slide.

6.     Fritz says he started at the first floor and worked his way up.  Yet Deputies found the rifle only a few minutes after finding the rifle cartridges, and Fritz was allegedly on hand quickly to see the rifle.  There is no way that Fritz searched all five floors in a few minutes.   Again, he takes credit for the work done by his subordinates.   I will let this slide as well.

7.     When Fritz speaks of the DPD "crime lab" – and this is very specific.  In consists of Lieutenant John Day and his assistant, Detective Robert Studebaker.  Their main duty was crime photography.  Secondary duties included dusting for fingerprints; fingerprint filing and taking fingerprints of prisoners.

8.     Fritz does examine the alleged murder weapon, and treats it carelessly – which is his alleged right as the senior on campus.  He leaves the evidence handling duties to subordinates – he is the Captain of Homicide Detectives – not a laborer.  I will also let this slide.

9.     Fritz claims he did not call the rifle a Mauser – but somebody did, and actually, there were many guesses as to the make and model when Deputies first discovered the rifle, before any closer examination.  Some attributed the ‘Mauser’ remark to Fritz – yet what   people said in those few minutes is unimportant to me.  I let that slide.

10.   Lieutenant Day did not work for Captain Fritz – and Fritz did not track his work.  Day did take charge of the rifle, taking it back to the DPD lab.  Fritz did not keep a timeline because as Captain, he’s not a laborer; he’s the boss of homicide detectives.   I let this slide.

11.   Chief Lumpkin delivered Roy Truly to Fritz to say that Oswald was the only one of his men unaccounted for, with job application address as Ruth Paine's home in Irving.  

12.  The rifle found, the receipt of Ruth Paine’s address, and the news that somebody shot Officer Tippit in Oak Cliff all occurred slightly after 1:15 pm.  This is a weird coincidence.  Then Fritz left the TSBD after hearing this, and drove across the street to the Dallas County Jail to meet for nearly an hour with Sheriff Bill Decker before he finally  drove to DPD HQ.  

13.  Back at DPD HQ, Fritz wondered if the man missing from the TSBD was the same man who killed J.D. Tippit.  I do not find this to be unusual for a veteran cop – seek the quickest solution.   I will let this slide.

14.   Is Fritz just old and tired, and hoping for a quick and easy solution to his crisis?   He is, after all, the Captain of the DPD Homicide Department.  JFK was killed, so that is a homicide, and Fritz was in charge of solving the crime.   He does not delegate this to subordinates – he takes on the case personally. 

15.  What suspects does Fritz have?   Actually, there are many.  Why does he focus so much on Oswald?   For one reason, by 2:15 pm, Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody at the City Jail for the murder of J.D. Tippit, and it would be neat and tidy if Oswald was also the killer of JFK.  It would save a ton of research and investigation.  It is the lazy way – so I find this normal under the circumstances.  I will also let this slide.

16.  Fritz tells his subordinates to build a "real good" case against Oswald for Tippit's murder, because "we didn't have so many witnesses" in JFK's killing.   What he means here is that there were no eye-witnesses who saw Lee Harvey Oswald kill JFK.   Oswald is a “suspect,” but nobody can say – “Yes, that is the face that I saw in the window.”   The one eye-witness who said he saw a face in the window, refused to identify Oswald – he said the “man looked older” to him.  So, Fritz has nobody at all.   This is factual.  I let this slide.

17.  The problem of how the Beckley address came to be known is deep and wide.  There are conflicting stories.   The official WC version is that Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes produced it, based on Oswald’s post office box application from November 1, 1963.  

18.  The Beckley address could not have come from Marina Oswald, since she never went there, and had no idea what the address was.  The same applies to Ruth Paine.  All that Lee Harvey Oswald gave them was a phone number – for emergencies only.

19.  Captain Will Fritz began his interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at about 2:25 pm.  He invited FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout – and they grilled Oswald for hours, and kept no record of the questioning.  This is the weirdest part.  I cannot let this slide.

20.  I myself believe utterly nothing that Captain Fritz reported about the questions and answers of Lee Harvey Oswald.  Not one thing.  The fact that his report – months later – very closely matched the reports of James Hosty, James Bookhout and Harry Holmes, only says to me that they carefully coordinated their reports during those months.

21.  Here is my opening point to reintroduce General Edwin Walker into the narrative.  This is a direct quotation from Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, from his book, Assignment Oswald (1996):   

"My caseload in the four-man counter-intelligence squad in the Dallas office was dominated by right-wingers.  I spent much of my time tracking the movements and actions of both Klan members and members of former US Army General Edwin Walker's radical militia group, known as the Minutemen.”   (James Hosty, ibid. p. 4).   

James Hosty played bridge on a regular basis with Robert Alan Surrey, who kept an office inside General Walker’s personal home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard in Dallas.  James Hosty will be my first link from the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald to General Walker and the Dallas Radical Right.

All best,
--Paul

13 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Barring the payments to the website host cover the service till May 11, can we discuss the practicalities allowing the EF to continue. As it is turning out, EF will be sustained by voluntary donations of forum members and/or members of the public. The most simple solution would be having a functioning donation option on this website, and a donation meter showing the current balance. It would then be enough for one of the moderators to monitor the balance and issue a timely request to Forum members in case the balance would not cover the maintenance costs for few months ahead.   

Before we speak of donations -- we should also speak of what sort of total annual expense we're talking about.

Is it $10,000 annually?   $1,000 annually?   $100 annually?

What is needed from each of the active members?   $1 monthly?   $10 monthly?

If the members cannot support the site -- what are the prospects of a member downloading 6 years worth of one's own posts for archiving?

All best,
--Paul

17 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

...Michael Paine’s late claim to have been shown a BYP neatly fits into the latter possibility, as the print he described was larger than the small drugstore prints. Paine’s embellishment that Oswald seemed to be proud of the photo also dovetails nicely with the Warren Commission’s supposition of its purpose (Oswald’s self-image). So it is easy to assume Oswald created the print as a farewell gift to George DeMohrenschildt...

Jeff,

To grasp the George DM version of the Oswald BYP, we must examine George DM's 1977 manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy!

In this manuscript we find a description of George DM and Volkmar Schmidt egging Oswald forward to hate and despise General Walker.

It is almost certain that an old boaster like George DM would tell young Oswald that he once worked for the CIA -- which would entice Oswald, who wanted to work for the CIA so badly that he could taste it.

If so, then it seems likely that the naïve young Oswald tried to kill General Walker as a gift to George DM and Volkmar Schmidt.   We get a taste of this, too, from Bill Kelly's interview with Volkmar Schmit in 2008.  http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2008/01/volkmar-schmidt-interview.html

If so, then this also explains the BYP that Oswald gave to George DM in the record albums that Marina returned to Jeanne DM through Everett Glover when the DM's were in Haiti.

If so, then Michael Paine's revelation to Russo and Rather that he saw the Oswald BYP in April, 1963, is credible and should be treated as US history.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

19 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

I think Meharg + Craig taken together present a weight of evidence towards a conclusion that a male ran from the TSBD area into a station wagon in the moments after the assassination.   We can forget the Paine station wagon.

I might perhaps attribute more weight to this than you because it presents a new angle: now I want witnesses in Oak Cliff who saw a station wagon.  Not a taxi cab, not a bus, not a man walking - but a station wagon.  Two men in a station wagon, one perhaps dark-skinned....a man getting out of a station wagon.  OR  --- really, any activity related to a green/white station wagon, such as was a station wagon ever seen in the parking area by the railroad tracks?    Or was a green station wagon in some other way noticed around this time?   Does someone else in this story drive a station wagon?

....its just another angle....

It may not be Oswald of course, just some other interesting person who wants to escape the TSBD quickly....we can leave it for now, but it's a new lead for me.

Jason

Jason,

You've got a new angle, insofar as you are simply tracking a Station Wagon, and not a "Green Nash Rambler."   There is, of course, a large literature about the "Green Nash Rambler," which almost entirely seeks to blame Ruth Paine for conspiracy with Lee Harvey Oswald in the JFK Assassination, based on Roger Craig's claims to the WC.

There is another anomaly to consider.

Marion Meharg says he saw Oswald escape into a Station Wagon occur BEHIND the TSBD building, out of the rear dock, and onto Houston Street.   Picture this, if you will.   This is the Northeast corner of the TSBD building at Houston street.

Deputy Roger Craig, on the other hand, has Oswald escape into a Station Wagon on the Southwest side of the TSBD building.   That is a significant problem, and calls for alternative explanations.   Let's review Roger Craig's WC testimony.   IIRC, Roger Craig is standing with James Tague and Buddy Walthers at the triple overpass, seeking signs of a ricocheted bullet.

Mr. BELIN - Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted bullet?
Mr. CRAIG - No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone whistle.
Mr. BELIN - Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?
Mr. CRAIG - Fourteen or 15 minutes...from the time I heard the first shot...So I turned and--uh-saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN - And, about where was he with relation to the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CRAIG - Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in front of it, He was on the south side of it.
Mr. BELIN - And he was on the south side of what would be an extension of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass?
Mr. CRAIG - Right; right,
Mr. BELIN - And where was he with relation to the west side of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. CRAIG - Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the west corner--the southwest corner,
Mr. BELIN - He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the building?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes...
Mr. BELIN - And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under the underpass?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes ; directly down the grassy portion of the park...

The problem is not small.   How can we explain this GEOGRAPHIC difference?   It's not just which side of the TSBD; the accounts are on OPPOSITE CORNERS of the building.

These are like two separate dreams.   The real question I would have is how two separate people can have two such different accounts of the same Station Wagon involving Lee Harvey Oswald and the TSBD building.

The clue for me is Ruth Paine.   AFAIK, Roger Craig had nothing to do with Ruth Paine outside of his relationship with Buddy Walthers.    So, the questions I immediately have are these:

1.  Does Marion Meharg know Deputy Roger Craig socially?
2.  Does Marion Meharg know Deputy Buddy Walthers socially?

If we can connect Meharg with Craig, then the urban legend has a root.   The same if Meharg knows Walthers.   What do we know about Meharg?

I will propose a wild guess here -- Buddy Walthers knows both of them -- and pushes both of them to link Ruth Paine with the station wagon.   (There really was a Station Wagon, and Buddy Walthers knew it -- and Buddy Walthers also knew the driver).   Buddy Walthers convinces each weak-minded man to repeat the story of the Station Wagon, naming Ruth Paine -- but Marion Meharg chickens out, and places his own wife in the story, in place of Ruth Paine.

All best,
--Paul

Jason,

Ruth had a green station wagon, not a two tone.

Too much attention is paid to this ... We can account for Ruth Paine's vehicle.

I have already stipulated to the escape of Oswald by station wagon.  We now have two witnesses with imperfect stories instead of only one.

I repeat -- great work.

It strengthens my case that the DPD fabricated a Lone Nut case against Oswald.

All best,
--Paul

4 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

There was at least one other witness that corroborates Deputy Roger Craig's story about Oswald leaving Dealey Plaza.   This witness later recanted their story and was painted as an unstable alcoholic; this statement in support of Craig never made it into the WR.

Thoughts?

What is a viable explanation for how Mr Meharg would make a 14 December report about a man leaving the TSBD in a two-tone station wagon story, other than he saw what Deputy Craig says he saw?

Jason,

First of all, great work on finding this story by Marion Meharg.   I've never seen it before.

I will, for the sake of argument, admit the plausibility that SOMEBODY ran from the North Loading dock of the TSBD -- and into a green ish Chevy station wagon -- and sped away.

That is certainly possible.  There is also a fair chance that it was the same scene that Deputy Roger Craig saw -- and he believed that person looked the same as Lee Harvey Oswald.

In fact -- there is also some chance that it actually was Lee Harvey Oswald AND AN ACCOMPLICE.    Let me stipulate that it was, for the sake of argument.  By the way -- I believe that Oswald actually did exit the rear dock of the TSBD, minutes after the encounter with DPD motorcycle cop, Marrion Baker.   I totally discount the "Lone Nut" legend that Oswald took a bus and a taxi from the TSBD.  I regard that as a fiction created by the FBI and DPD.   I have held that conviction for many years.

HOWEVER -- on the other side -- I have a problem with this testimony by Marion Meharg.  He then ascribes in his "memory," that the license plate number was the same as that of his wife -- and so the Chevy was the same one that his wife owned.   And so, we observe this Oedipal fantasy in his mind -- probably the result of alcoholism.  So -- although I accept that Meharg saw a man jump into a station wagon and speed away -- the details are obscured for us because of the pathetic nature of his "memory."

NOW -- let us turn to Deputy Roger Craig.   I will also stipulate that he saw the same scene -- but just like Marion Meharg -- Roger Craig steps on his own story.  I totally discount Roger Craig's elaboration on this story -- that he personally encountered Lee Harvey Oswald inside the officer of Captain Will Fritz, and provoked Oswald into exclaiming, "That station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine -- you leave her out of this!"  

First, Captain Fritz is befuddled by the story.   Of course he would recall what happened inside his own office!   Would Captain Fritz expose himself to the charge of lying if he had no superlative reason?   Of course not.

Secondly, if the DPD cops and Deputies are coordinating their stories, then why is Roger Craig trying to make himself into a central figure in the JFK saga?

Therefore, I do accept that Lee Harvey Oswald exited the rear of the TSBD building and jumped into a station wagon driven by an accomplice who was dark skinned -- perhaps a Cuban or a Mexican-American (e.g. David Morales or Larry Howard) -- and sped away. 

HOWEVER, I reject accept the "elaborations" told by both witnesses.   They added stuff.  Meharg added a fantasy about his wife.  Roger Craig added a fantasy about Ruth Paine (and he most likely heard about Ruth Paine from another Dallas Deputy, e.g. Buddy Walthers).

So -- in a sad twist of fate -- both witnesses were 50% truthful, but their "elaborations" canceled their true history.  There's my opinion.

Finally, Jason, great work on finding this story by Marion Meharg.   I've never seen it before.

All best,
--Paul

19 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Police and Sheriff testimony in the Warren Commission Part 6: Dallas Police Department Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer:

CONCERNS:

1. The most apparent value of this testimony is around timing.   Do Inspector Sawyer's specific time points support or challenge the sheriff deputies?
2. Murky here is a concern appearing in all the testimony from Dallas peace officers in the area.   Sheriff Decker makes a radio call commanding officers to the overpass/railroad area.   BUT, Sawyer goes to the TSBD instead.  
3. Sawyer claims that shortly after Decker commands officers to the overpass/railroad area, he hears a broadcast from DPD headquarters about the TSBD instead.  Is this confirmed by transcripts?  Who and why is the TSBD singled out by the DPD, apparently contravening Sheriff Decker's orders?
4. Why does Inspector Sawyer arrive at TSBD and make a cursory check of the 5th floor?   Why this particular floor, and why not the 6th floor, 7th floor, or the roof?   Is Sawyer making a latter day effort to deny any personal knowledge of 6th floor activities and evidence?
5. Does not mention the presence of Captain Fritz or Sheriff Decker at TSBD.  Why?
6. What is the explanation for the description of the 30-30 or similar Winchester?
7. Inspector Sawyer's witness processing seems exceptionally casual - no names and few details are given; he seems to pass on the responsibility for pinpointing witness statements to others and seems little concerned about using immediate witness information to track down the killer.  Sawyer is happy to set up a bureaucratic process for witnesses, but doesn't do anything to act on the info the witnesses provided in hopes of catching the criminal(s).
8. Sawyer is very casual and nonchalant when confronted with the possibility the crime has been filmed.  Too casual?
9. Sawyer makes a point to emphasize that the overpass/railroad area is not where most witnesses heard shots come from - is this consistent with other testimony?
10. Sawyer makes a point to emphasize that the shooter had "been there a while."
11. Sawyer definitely wants it clear that he was at all times seeking the missing African American employee from the TSBD, who was quickly apprehended.  How does Sawyer get info that this man has a police record?  (see transcript below)
12. Sawyer is, it seems, the DPD conduit providing the initial 165 pound description of the shooter
13. Again, timing is perhaps the most important evidence Inspector Sawyer gives, i.e. when was TSBD locked down?
14. Sawyer adds a new angle as to how the TSBD got into law enforcement focus.  He says this was from a DPD headquarters broadcast - while the sheriff's deputies entirely omit how they came to focus on the TSBD instead of their initial focus on the railyard/overpass area.

Jason,

Thanks for your detailed summary and analysis of DPD Inspector Sawyer's testimony.  As I noted, I'm very cautious about naming anybody as a JFK conspirator, so let me first give Sawyer the full benefit of every doubt, and see what shakes out.

My basic theory is that perhaps 10% of the Dallas Lawmen at Dealey Plaza were involved in the JFK plot, but they relied on the DPD culture of conformity and comradery of their fellow Lawmen to cover their story.  So, I will review your review, while presuming that Sawyer is merely a dupe of JFK plotters.

1.  The first question in your review that jumps out at me is this: WHO FIRST NAMES THE TSBD, OFFICIALLY?

1.1.   The answer is in the radio log -- the time is 12:35.  The DPD officer was Clyde Haygood.  His eye-witness was an unnamed white male.  Witness claimed the shots came from the TSBD.

2.  Arriving at the TSBD, Inspector Sawyer seems clueless.  "Some" officers confirm shots came from TSBD.  "Some" officers accompany him to 5th floor.  Seeing nothing there, he returns to the ground floor to seal off the building.

3.  Given 12:35 as a suggestion to go to the TSBD, and given that Sawyer had to drive a car there (1.5 minutes) and spent another 3.5 minutes wandering up and about the 5th floor and back down.  I count 5 minutes of lost time, making 12:40 the very first minute when Sawyer supervised the TSBD building seal-off.

3.1.  That was the same minute we have of Buddy Walthers on the South Lawn of Dealey Plaza, when he claims Lawmen were aimless and uncoordinated, until he ordered them to invade the TSBD.

4.  WC witnesses from Washington DC will blame the DPD for a deplorable slowness in sealing off the TSBD, thus letting Oswald escape. 

5.  I refuse to accept that the TSBD was sealed off by 12:37.

6.  I do accept that Inspector Sawyer set up a system to move witnesses to the County Jail as he boasts.

7.  I do accept that at 12:44, Sawyer broadcast a description of the wanted man, based on an eye-witness, as his best guess, namely, 5'10", age 30, weight 165, carrying a 30-30 Winchester.

8.  Sawyer says he doesn't remember times or names -- but he agrees 100% with the DPD radio transcript.  This is a safe position.

9. As for Charles Givens, a Black TSBD employee with a record, Inspector Sawyer did seek him -- but the timing is crucial -- this was AFTER the search was on for Lee Harvey Oswald (around 1:15) and AFTER the rifle had already been found.

10.0.  As for your concerns, Jason: 

10.1. Inspector Sawyer's specific time points support the DPD radio log, which confirms the bulk of his own WC testimony.

10.2.  The DPD radio log says that the TSBD was cited as early as 12:35.  Sawyer was correct.   Eye-witnesses named the TSBD.  This was better than Sheriff Decker, who had already passed the triple underpass when he gave his order. 

10.;3.  Besides -- Decker only commanded his own men (the Deputies) to go to the railroad yard, and as we have seen, all his available men went there.  Decker had no authority to command the Dallas Police.  They had their own chain of command.

10.4.  The fact that Sawyer fruitlessly wastes time on the 5th floor TSBD may be innocent -- he was plausibly clueless and in shock -- and reacted before gathering his five senses and duty.

10.5. Sawyer does not mention Captain Fritz or Sheriff Decker at TSBD, because they didn't arrive until after the shells were found (ca. 1:12 pm) and he was the one in charge at the TSBD from about 12:40 to 1:10.  They simply were not there

10.5.1.  Also, Sawyer did not report to them -- he reported to Jesse Curry, who never came to the TSBD.  So, Sawyer was in charge for the DPD.

10.6.  The Winchester rifle was merely the guesswork of one of the eye-witnesses.

10.7.  The pride of Inspector Sawyer was that he organized the routing of eye-witnesses to the County Jailhouse for questioning and affidavits.  

10.8.  Sawyer says nothing more about any filming from the DalTec building, because that was above his pay grade.  The Secret Service controlled that, period.  He didn't care further.   

10.8.1.  Either that -- or Sawyer knew that there was a shooter at the DalTec, and he knew that the filming story was a cover, and he blamed the Secret Service for the cover.

10.8.2.  It is interesting to me that he specifically names Forrest Sorrels as the agent in charge -- because I personally believe that Forrest Sorrells was one of the JFK plotters.

10.9.  When Sawyer downplays the Grassy Knoll witnesses, he is arguably only conforming to the wishes of the DPD and the WC.  

10.10.  When Sawyer said the shooter had "been there awhile," he was arguably repeating what others said.  That seems to be Sawyer's modus operandi -- just echo others.

10.11.  IMHO, Sawyer wants to emphasize his racist belief that all crimes have Negroes behind them, so he emphasized Charles Givens, a TSBD worker who was missing when Oswald was missing.  Then, after Roy Truly defended Givens as a loyal worker, Sawyer de-emphasized it by claiming that a Negro DPD officer had arrested Givens for questioning.  It's not important to the JFK solution, IMHO.

10.12.  The 165 pound shooter was the guesswork of an eye-witness.  Sawyer just echoes.

10.13.  Sawyer wishes everyone will believe that he really locked down the TSBD before 12:45, but that is a dream-wish. 

10.14.  There was a 12:35 DPD broadcast about the TSBD, as we have seen above.

In my opinion, Jason, the WC testimony of Inspector Sawyer is arguably innocent, but he gives us a good Timeline for evaluating the testimony of other TSBD witnesses.  Sawyer was slow and barely competent under the circumstances.   (As Walt Brown would say, the shooting of a Dallas police officer was far more important to the DPD than the shooting of JFK.)

All best,
--Paul

20 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

For me this controversy about Roger Craig brings up another point that is less discussed.   

Aside from the substantive points Craig makes about the station wagon and identifying Oswald in Frtiz's office; this tells us about the work of the Warren Commission. IF the entire WC staff were programmed from day one to aim for Lone Nut, the Roger Craig issue wouldn't be so obvious.   

For instance, in Roger Craig's direct testimony to the Warren Commission, he is asked if Sheriff Decker mentioned a bus transfer ticket found on Oswald, which is of course a key factor in refuting Craig's testimony that Oswald left downtown in a Nash Rambler station wagon.    Craig says the bus transfer ticket was never mentioned, Sheriff Decker says it was.   In fact the question asked of Craig about the transfer ticket is clearly in reference to Decker's December '63 statement to the FBI - which to me shows the WC staff was purposefully investigating inconsistencies and not hiding all the contrary evidence.  They could have easily hidden or diminished the Craig issue and not brought up the contradiction between Craig and Decker on the bus transfer ticket:

1. Dallas County Sheriff's Deputy Roger Craig in direct testimony to the Warren Commission (summer, 1964)

2. From Oswald's CIA 201 file, the memo of a FBI interview with Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker a few weeks after the assassination:

Jason,

While it's plausible that the Warren Commission (WC) was earnestly considering both sides of the Lone Nut theory of Lee Harvey Oswald (that is what they claimed in their brief "Warren Report" summary of the WC Hearings and Exhibits) in my opinion, however, I believe that the WC was putting on a show of considering both sides.   

These questions were not spontaneous -- they were planned and even coordinated with many witnesses before the hearings.   There was no cross-examination.   This is why it is important that that we find any contradictions at all.

The problem for the WC was that the Dallas and Fort Worth newspapers had, by January 1964, already published every single theory about the JFK Assassination that was available by then (most of those we still talk about today) and the Warren Commission had no choice but to DISCUSS every single one, and then CONFIRM or DENY.

This is stated explicitly in the Warren Report.

Such was the case with Roger Craig.  He was given many chances to change his story -- but like a grammar school dropout, he refused to do so.   Very well then, he would get the job of any grammar school dropout adult -- grocery bagger and grocery cart collector.

The FBI memo you cited showed that although Captain Fritz knew of Roger Craig's story long in advance of his WC testimony, Fritz still didn't like hearing about it on the stand.

It is like the Sylvia Odio story.   It discusses the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald had accomplices -- but also smashes her theory to smithereens.   The same happened with Roger Craig.  That was not objective legal questioning -- that was leading the witnesses to the biased conclusion. 

That's how I see it.    Now -- I am not arguing that Roger Craig was telling the truth.   I will later argue that Roger Craig was disliked by most Sheriff Deputies -- had at most one friend in the Department (not a Deputy) -- and his lack of education left him as the low man on the totem pole at every turn.

In my opinion -- Deputy Buddy Walthers was the high man on the totem pole, and he coordinated all the Deputy stories, as far as possible.   He also gave Roger Craig a story to tell -- about Ruth Paine in particular.    But as the Deputies' story changed by necessity, Roger Craig was not bright enough to realize that he had to change his story -- so he stubbornly refused -- and so he himself had to be discarded.   That's my current thinking on Roger Craig.

Who kept changing the Deputies' story?    Bill Decker and Will Fritz, surely -- but in coordination with General Walker.   That's what I'll seek to show.

All best,
--Paul

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't trust anything Marina said before the Warren Commission.

Sandy,

Would you kindly cite one example of what Marina Oswald told the WC, within her thousands of answers tp thousands of questions, that you believe is a Big Lie?   Marina's testimony -- plus the testimony of her mother-in-law, Marguerite Oswald -- forms the core of this case against LHO as a wife-beater.   What material evidence do you have against Marina?

Thank you,
--Paul Trejo

I highly recommend the IGNORE feature of this Forum.   I myself have *several* posters set to IGNORE, and I enjoy the Forum so much more.

I also agree with Eddy here.   If by some accident, 1% of their posts turns out to be interesting, somebody else will quote it, and then I have the option to decide for myself.

It is indeed a Blockbuster feature.   Highly recommended.

All best,
--Paul