Glenn Nall

isn't this, sadly, the case? these days in particular with suspect Federal officials falling from the sky - as I've 'researched' this event through the years, the more the question of top-down impropriety must be considered in so many particular instances... a bit of a symptom of the assassination ever since, to speak the truth. The Fed has become more and more oligarchic and untrustworthy from thence forth. Did North Viet Nam really attack us in the Gulf of Tonkin? Well, did the government tell us the truth? Did so-and-so win the election? Well, did the government make available the real results? The perennial, permeating paranoia only a select few are honored to possess. Did henry Marshall really commit suicide by shooting himself in the chest 5 times? Was box 13 in LBJ's 1948 senate race an honest vote? Was it an honest investigation? and Vince Foster, and Bush's WMD's, and 5 Immunity deals for nothing consequential, and...

and the manner of death was changed, eventually, if memory serves. which it sometimes really does.

culprits aside, surely you're not saying Marshall inhaled a bunch of CO by himself and then shot himself 5 times with a rifle, of all things, because the CO wasn't painful enough...?

just a point, as devil's advocate, I guess. whenever I hear the categorical phrase "so-and-so did it theory" it is my opinion that, at least among responsible researchers and theorists, this does not necessarily mean (though it might) strictly that, in this case for instance, LBJ was the one who orchestrated and effected the entire thing. We so often hear the ridiculously inclusive "the CIA did it," which rarely means that the theorist proposes the idea that it was a from-the-director down mission. Most reasonable researchers know what something like that really means, that it usually is referring to some - oops, hang on, my puppy's got to go pee, and this post will not interfere, she has explained - - a smaller 'sub-group' of the CIA, at least, with or without the knowledge and approval of the 'bosses.' It doesn't really mean "the CIA did it" to most people. (Except one person who, as far as I can tell, really means "General Walker did it.") There are so many moving parts in this murder, with so, so many potential, motivated people that, to me, to pin this thing on a singular orchestrator, without a goodly number of other people wanting to help, and being needed, is not very realistic. Even if someone like LBJ "did it," there's no conceivable way he could have done so without both the help, AND the acquiescence of other, equally, or more, powerful people. President or not, he had people he had to answer to. Yes? No? When I think, in vague terms, "LBJ did it," which happens to be one of my leanings - I've committed to nothing - what I'm really thinking is that LBJ a) had as much motivation to want K dead as the anti-castro groups, or Trafficante and Marcello, et al, or others, that he benefitted decidedly as much as anyone else, and more than most, and c) that it might be that he simply had complete knowledge and offered either his help or silence. To say that Johnson, or Hoover, or McCone, or even Hunt, or the other Hunt, "did it" is a grand reach. In fact, I really don't know of anything other than the potential fingerprint that implicates Mac Wallace. I should read Ms Mellen's book, but it's at this point far down a line of books (yes, I read books other than The Yankee and Cowboy War). I don't think LBJ 'did it,' but I do think he was involved, at some level. This phrase "so-and-so did it theory" can really be misleading. Too often the layperson asks, "who do you think did it? the CIA?" and thenceforth begins the token hour and a half expose on how it really works. Or not.

isn't this, sadly, the case? these days in particular with suspect Federal officials falling from the sky - as I've 'researched' this event through the years, the more the question of top-down impropriety must be considered in so many particular instances... a bit of a symptom of the assassination ever since, to speak the truth. The Fed has become more and more oligarchic and untrustworthy from thence forth. Did North Viet Nam really attack us in the Gulf of Tonkin? Well, did the government tell us the truth? Did so-and-so win the election? Well, did the government make available the real results? The perennial, permeating paranoia only a select few are honored to possess.

I know many of you have read "The Men on the 6th Floor" where these floorers are implicated in the TSBD scenario. What are some thoughts on that...? (It's a pretty audacious book, though not unbelievable at all. I'm sure there's a lot of accuracy to it. All of it...? hmmm...)

egads. that's all. just egads. (and damn).

ha - - i was just reprinting that from Mary Ferrell's website. i forgot to mention that. I've not even had time to open that door, so i have no idea. as i pointed out, that's some old material.

It's the first I've seen that, too. Without reading more of Weston's stuff and finding a little more background, that one sentence is to be taken at face value, at most, I think. The thing is, these writings of Mr Weston are pretty old - for there to be anything to this idea of Shelley being intelligence, I would think that someone would have grabbed the ball and ran with it by now. I'm pretty sure this is part of The Fourth Decade, a long series of journals edited by some guy named Jerry Rose, and consisting of - well, see below* But, even if he really did say that, that's a pretty big wrench in the works... what? The Third Decade - edited by Jerry Rose, was the longest-running and perhaps the finest of the journals devoted to the study of the assassination of President Kennedy. Its first issue came out in November of 1984, and it ran through September of 1993, at that point continuing on under the new moniker The Fourth Decade. The Third Decade contains essays by Jerry Rose, Gaeton Fonzi, Phil Melanson, Ed Tatro, Patricia Lambert, Paul Hoch, Anthony Marsh, Timothy Cwiek, Martin Shackelford, Richard Trask, Emory Brown, Harrison Livingstone, Scott Van Wynsberghe, Richard Sprague, Jan Stevens, Vince Palamara, David Perry, Jack White, Bill Kelly, Dennis Ford, Peter Whitmey, Sheldon Inkol, G. J. Rowell, Jim Lesar, Sylvia Meagher, Mary Ferrell, and others. * The Fourth Decade - This well-respected journal, edited by Jerry Rose, continued on where The Third Decade left off. It ran 6 issues per year from 1993 through 2000, with the last issue appearing in January 2001. The Fourth Decade contains essays by Jerry Rose, Peter Whitmey, Gary Mack, Martin Shackleford, Peter Dale Scott, Jack White, Milicent Cranor, Dennis Ford, Ian Griggs, James Folliard, Richard Bartholomew, Christopher Sharrett, William Weston, Hal Verb, Hugh Murray, Vince Palamara, Barbara LaMonica, John J. Johnson, Harrison Livingstone, Bill Kelly, and many other contributors. (I think I remember a 1st and 2nd, too, or maybe that's just my 55 yr old brain)

well, damn. this is SOME of what Weston says about this. I'm chopping it into points, for brevity - it's a LONG piece about this TSBD, and Guns and stuff. But it's darned interesting... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.assassination.jfk/u40CSo4o0Gw EDIT - oops. My bad. WW himself posted the whole thing here, in 2006: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6017 On the sixth floor [???] that day William Shelley and his crew of five men were adding new plywood to the old floor. How they failed to notice the lifting and moving of two dozen boxes, each weighing 55 pounds, to make the sniper’s nest at the southeast corner window has never been explained. Also unexplained is an incident after the assassination: Shelley spoke with Oswald just prior to the latter’s escape in a Nash Rambler. (Note: this was most likely the other Oswald, the Oswald impostor. RC) A veil of secrecy conceals the company that employed these men. The Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) moved into the seven-story, 411 Elm Street building during the summer of 1963, but exactly when is unknown. Ruth Paine, while driving on the freeway, saw the company name on a four-story warehouse and thought that Lee worked there [ ], not realizing that a larger building, also within her view, was the place where he really worked. Evidently a new sign was added later, but exactly when is unknown. The difficulty of obtaining specific details is of course due to the building’s role as a shooting platform, but there is something else to consider. From clues derived from a variety of sources, we know that company executives used schoolbooks to disguise shipments of firearms and narcotics. Although the picture is still unclear, the story of Joe Bergin adds an important piece to the puzzle. It is a story he never would have told himself, but thanks to his son, it is told here for the first time. Background Born in Alvin, Texas on August 12, 1899, Joe Lyons Bergin was the son of a Methodist minister, John W. Bergin, who in his early years traveled the preaching circuit with his wife and children. After four years as a pastor in Corsicana, John went to Georgetown, where he served as president of Southwestern University from 1935 to 1942. His son Joe went to the same university in the fall of 1918, where he excelled as a football player. After graduation, he taught history and athletics at the Lake Forest High School in Dallas. In 1930 he went to Greenville (50 miles northeast of Dallas), where he became the principal of a high school. Two years later, he won a four-year term as superintendent of the school district. People admired him for his intelligence and courteous manners. He was also a delightful conversationalist. As superintendent, he worked hard to raise the academic standards back up so that its secondary schools could regain their accreditation. For this achievement he won the gratitude of the citizens of Greenville. [...] The Drugs and Guns Connection [...] After the communists took over the mainland in 1949 and Chiang Kai-Shek moved his government to Taiwan, Secretary of State Dean Acheson gave his blessing to a diplomatic mission to Taiwan consisting of businessmen and military officers, led by William Pawley, to facilitate the importation of drugs from Burma. Providing most of the funds for this mission was Texas oil man, H. L. Hunt. One of the points of entry for Chinese heroin was across the Mexican border into Laredo, Texas. In a July 1959 report “The Narcotics Situation in South Asia and the Far East,” Garland Williams, a top official in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN), accused the Central Intelligence Agency of encouraging the Chinese to produce drugs. According to Valentine, the CIA and its Nationalist Chinese allies operated the largest drug-trafficking syndicate in the world. [5] Towards the end of World War II, Mexico became another source of drugs. In 1945, Eva Ruby and Paul Roland Jones were partners in picking up opium delivered to Dallas from the Durango area of Mexico and sending it to Hyman Ruby in Chicago via shipments of iron pipe. As a volunteer in the Texas Rangers, Bergin would have seen and heard much of the guns and drugs trade. The Schoolbook Companies In 1938, in the middle of his second term, Bergin submitted his resignation to “go into business,” according to a newspaper article. [6] He left the security, prestige, and lucrative salary of a school superintendent in order to go to Dallas and sell schoolbooks for Scott Foresman. [...] Scott Foresman, the predominant publisher of elementary-level schoolbooks and best known for its Dick and Jane readers, had its headquarters in Chicago. Bergin was the manager of its Dallas office, located on the third floor of the Santa Fe building on Main Street. The staff, virtually all female, ranged from eight to ten employees to as many as twelve to fifteen during the summer when the demand for schoolbooks was high. Bergin’s assistant, Dora Newman, a small, frail-looking woman, yet full of energy, was adept at maintaining harmony and discipline in the office and even had a touch of class. Sharing the third floor were the offices of other schoolbook companies, such as Bobbs-Merrill, Lyons & Carnahan, McGraw-Hill, and Southwestern. In spite of the competition, all the managers had friendly contacts with one another and took turns giving parties. Joe hosted parties with no alcoholic beverages, for he disapproved of drinking. The main occupant of the third floor was the Hugh Perry Book Depository, a privately owned company, incorporated in 1927 and the predecessor of the TSBD. Hugh Perry acted as an independent agency for a group of publishers to warehouse and distribute textbooks to schools in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, and New Mexico. Not far from the TSBD on 707 Browder Street was the Lone Star Schoolbook Depository, a rival company, which also warehoused and distributed schoolbooks. As part of his job, Joe Bergin worked as a lobbyist at the state capitol, where he met with legislators and competed with other publishing companies in the politics of book adoption. In the state of Texas, the legislature had the authority to decide what books schools should have. A different practice was used in Oklahoma and New Mexico, which allowed principals and superintendents to decide what books to get. Bergin went to these states with a carload of books and basically functioned as a salesman. As his responsibilities grew, he hired others to do the business trips while he remained at the office to do the paperwork. On October 29, 1945, Hugh Perry hired a mysterious clerk named William Shelley. According to news journalist Elzie Glaze, who met him in 1974, Shelley said he was an intelligence agent during the war and afterwards joined the CIA. [8] Since his previous job was a brief stint working in defense plants, it is possible that he served as an informant for some counterespionage unit. This undercover work carried over into Hugh Perry, where schoolbooks concealed clandestine shipments of guns and drugs. The second part of Shelley’s statement shows that, after the CIA came into existence in 1947, it took over this operation – and the agents assigned to it. The Activities of Jack Ruby Money generated by the sale of drugs required laundering, and gambling was one way to do that. In November 1946, Paul Roland Jones approached Sheriff Steve Guthrie and promised him a starting salary of $150,000 a year if he allowed his friends from Chicago to bring slot machines and floating crap games into Dallas... damn.

This is from Richard Bartholomew's Rambler paper, 1996 (didn't remember just what he said 'til now): It can be presumed therefore that, as researcher William Weston has written, "One of the most critical elements of this plot was the Texas School Book Depository." In addition to both the circumstances of Oswald's employment at the TSBD, and the routing of the motorcade by the building, Weston points out that there would have been a need for a team of plotters to make detailed plans inside the building well in advance of November 22, including firing angles, planting of false evidence, and getaway plans. This could have been done, Weston says, by six TSBD employees assigned to lay new flooring on the fifth and sixth floors from late October until November 22. It is a plausible argument, which brings up the concern that any long-term improvement to the property such as a flooring project would have to have been of interest to, if not directly initiated and contracted by, the building's owner. Roy Truly, the "superintendent" who hired Oswald was "a building manager." In a story published the day after the assassination, Dallas Morning News reporter Kent Biffle referred to Roy Truly as "Superintendent of the textbook building...." The floor crew was supervised directly by William Shelly, "the assistant manager who was in charge of the floor laying project." These titles imply that they were building managers more closely associated with the landlord than with the private textbook brokerage firm which leased the building. The employment of these individuals would seem to be a relatively easy fact for researchers verify. Weston writes, "The electrical power for the whole building and even the telephone stopped working about five minutes prior to the assassination. How two such entirely different systems as the electricity and the phones could go out simultaneously is beyond explanation, unless one can assume that the interruption was deliberate." Although this claim is currently in dispute, it cannot be denied that the conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy would have involved intimate knowledge of the TSBD building. Truly and Shelly were possibly employed to some extent by the building's landlord, David Harold Byrd. I think what makes these "outsiders" more curious is the fact that so little information has either been found or been publicized to any extent. It only makes sense that Byrd would have been the one to order any building reconstruction. Certainly not any renters of the building. And if they, or the cleaning company, are connected to DH Byrd, which is likely, then they are suspect by default. Yet so little is known.

A number of books make reference to the crew that had been replacing the flooring in the TSBD, in particular Glen Sample's The Men on the Sixth Floor, which a bit more extensively involves this crew in its proposed theory. But I've not yet come across any in-depth research into this - has any real research been published on the men in this crew, the hiring of the crew (they were not TSBD employees, right?), their whereabouts immediately after the shooting, etc? And along those lines, wasn't there office space in the building that was used by other, non-TSBD personnel? Is there anything available on this, esp. the flooring crew?

The Magnolia Oil/War Hawk party occurred on 11/22/63. Actually there were two parties set up for Oswald to meet the Paines as the first party the host Volkmar Schmidt and Michael Paine couldn't make it, but Marina met Ruth and Oswald met Michael and Schmidt at second party, also in Feb. More to come on this issue. BK what was the second? what's this about a Magnolia Oil (War Hawk?) party on 11/22/63...?

yes. really enlightening; I'm sure you've read it...

Oglesby did a great job connecting them through Hughes and Maheu, John Meier and Donald Nixon, Robert Mullen and Company, the TWA crash, and Hank Greenspun and the contents of his safe. And James McCord, of course. (McCord's statements to Oglesby in an interview are pretty disclosing.)

It has certainly become apparent to me that the "elements" of the JFK Assassination are not only directly tied to those of Watergate, and Richard Nixon, but in general to a wider array of "elements" of our elite, deep-politic government since. I've never come across a direct association of Oswald to these future (to then) elements, but an association can most likely be made by proxy - "guilt by association," as it were. Carl Oglesby even showed a connection with Jimmy Carter's "installation," as he calls it, via Gerald Ford. It's really hard to imagine that these boys in the woodwork just all went away at some point.

The Woodward Watergate links are busted.

yes, exactly. great point: sources. thanks

and, yes, i'd already read the first link, Who Is Gus Russo. In fact, it's that article and Russo's response to it that has me asking about his reputation. I respect Mr DiEugenio's work (although he probably still has little respect for me since the time I challenged some political bent that was leveraged into one of these "discussions" - why are most JFK researchers Democrats...? Just curious. I notice few Conservatives willing look in the mirror...) thanks again

thanks for your response, Michael. I'm curious; didn't Russo at one time have a good reputation for his research? Is there a point at which his "sellout" becomes clear? I'm looking at excerpts of his book Live By The Sword and it has some material about the cuban exile communities that i'm interested in - i'm wondering how trustworthy he was at the time he wrote this book... 1998

thanks, Larry...

I was hoping I could get some experiential and/or expert commentary from some of you on the veracity and reputations of Robert Morrow, and particularly his book First Hand Knowledge, as well as Gus Russo in general, and maybe on his book Live By The Sword. From what i've seen, these two have made some semi-over the top claims, and I would like to know how these guys and their claims have been received by some of the best of the researchers (ya'll). DVP, thanks anyway. thanks to whomever (whoever?) can offer some input. GN

Thompson also predicted that he would kill himself before he died naturally. His lifelong friends repeat this statement. no, very much unlike sirhan sirhan is bobby's killer. chapman confessed. chapman was seen to have shot lennon by yoko in a deserted area with no commotion. chapman willingly stayed at the scene. none of those are true of sirhan sirhan's setup. you know that. the films of jfk's murder is nothing similar to reagan's shooting. none at all. the shooter was not seen to have pulled the trigger and tackled with the gun in his hand. it was not on live TV. NO ONE confessed to having shot kennedy at the time. there's no doubt that bush is a bad guy. i don't dispute that. but to put these events on him only serves to kill one's credibility in its ridiculousness. sheer delusional (and admitted) guesswork, making something from nothing. kind of embarrassing if you ask me. offer some substance to these assertions. that HST predicted his demise says nothing. i'm sure many people of his (mental?) type have predicted the same things. in fact, there are journalists who have been killed clearly to be shut up. not just Kilgallen, but in recent years - some who have gotten close to some real dirt. but these events had some circumstantial evidence that points to such. for anyone to say that Thompson's death is widely accepted to be an assassination is flat wrong. it's not widely accepted except perhaps on these websites of paranoia. the bottom line is, HST's journalism hasn't been taken seriously since he covered Nixon. he ceased to be a respected journalist years ago, and became a (albeit fantastic) satirist. that's all. there was no reason to kill him, except that maybe he was killing the LSD supply in Colorado.

So Jose Perdomo had nothing to do with Lennon's death. And the men I mentioned all died from natural causes. Read up on it. Use your head to think and not your a__. Kathy C Hunter Thompson shot himself in the head in the kitchen while on the phone with his wife and while his kids were in the other room, visiting from out of town. This is all verified. As much as I've always loved his writing, he was as nuts as a football bat, and was taken seriously by no one of any political stature. Mark David Chapman is the undisputed killer of John Lennon, and that there may be no other witness than Yoko suggests nothing else. That's a herculean leap in logic, and to further such logic with a "guess" that GHWBush (whose criminality I neither dispute, and of whose involvement with the murder of JFK i am convinced) was involved is as fantastic as the mythical Hercules. Hinckley shot Reagan. It was on live TV. It's on film. If indeed these were political moves toward a "new world order" then i'm certain that the organizers would have ensured there were no TV cameras around. Any theoretical new world order started long before GHWB became VP. And your willingness to attach the Republican (any political) party to this assertion tells me all I need to know about your objectivity. good day. Hunter Thompson's death was a mystery to his family. One son was home. Thompson lived in a wooded area. His wife was anxious about him. When she got to the store, she phoned Thompson. He was on his porch with his typewriter. His wife heard a strange noise on the phone. He went silent. She rushed home. He had shot himself, apparently. His son was home and stated he never heard a sound. I get the impression they were living in an isolated area. No noise? At the time, Thompson was extremely distressed because -- some have said -- he had attended Bohemian Grove and shot film of their killing a person as a sacrifice. It's pretty well accepted that John Lennon was killed by the FBI or CIA. His own son, Sean, said he believed this. Jose Perdomo was there that night and said to Chapman, "What did you just do?" And Chapman replied, "I just shot John Lennon," and went back to reading The Catcher in the Rye.in the dark. There's a website about this. Key in "John Lennon Dakota," as I don't remember the name of the site. And Hinckley was nuts and known to the Bushes. As a matter of fact, the Hinckley parents were going to have dinner with George Bush's son. The one who never ran for public office. Odd, isn't it? There is a speech on youtube showing George H.W. Bush telling America from the Oval Office about the New World Order and that it had already started. Please watch it. It's chilling. Kathy C oh. there's a website about it. well that changes things. Chapman just spent 35 years in a mental institution, and you're saying his reading Cather in the dark is suspicious. and that there's a website about the CIA killing Lennon. it's one thing to think Sirhan was under some control, since there's actually evidence that suggests it; it's another to suspect all of these other people are using this kind of reasoning. you're really reaching. i'm sorry.

never heard of this book - bet it's terrific. will get it.