Robert Mady

James, I did not say a rifle was not used, I said a conventional rifle + silencer was not used / a rifle that utilized chemically reactive cartridges. The compressed gas weapon most probably utilized did look similar to a regular rifle, but how can we speculate further and why would it be necessary to define this detail ? When it becomes a reality that KENNDEY was struck in the throat at Z-189 using a compressed gas weapon, someone will determine what weapon would have been a candidate with technology that would be required. Instead of picking away at what is being presented why not look at the questions that are fully answered by the evidence being presented. IF the first shot was very silent ~Z-189 IF the second shot was a rifle shot and occurred at Z-313 This simple model is corroborated by all film and every photograph from the assassination. This simple model is corroborated by a significant portion testimony. Can your model do either? Can you post evidence as widespread and in depth as evidence that has been posted in support of your theory or any theory? Why is there no one reacting in Altgens #6 to one or two rifle shots? AND yes a mc police are aware of the commotion in the limo, why wouldn't they be looking. And Yes three agents are looking to the rear, so what? ALTGENS took a photograph while they were scanning to the rear trying to locate the origin of the noise they heard, these men looked to the GK until at least Z-212. Why not stop analyzing what I am posting and study what is being said, do not judge it based on what you know, judge it based on its corroboration with evidence presented. The military was flying the SR-71 at what mock 4 5 6 or 7? but "they" could not design a compressed gas gun to shoot a missile accurately 100 feet? How could you know this?

Yes Robert that is what I am saying in this tread, it is the first rifle shot HEARD in DP. it is definitely not the first shot fired, the first shot being most silent. Robert lets us agree to disagree on any shot prior to the shot at Z-313 at this time. What is imperative for researches to understand is that they have a misconception of the assassination with which they have endeavored to locate when shot number 1 and shot number 2 occurred using this erroneous conception of the assassination as a foundation, this is why no one in 51 years has made any sense, because whether you use the WC theory or any conspiracy theory they all started with false concept and that is; there were three shots and the last shot occurred at Z-313. This concept was first broadcast into reality a few minutes after the assassination, three shots, last shot was the head shot, three shots, last shot was the head shot, three shots, last shot was the head shot, they said it so many times it became our reality, we just could not figure our way out. This is why there can NEVER be a solution to the mystery using the current misconceptions of the assassination, because it is not possible using erroneous concepts to determine the truth.

David, I appreciate you taking the time to read this thread and to ask questions, I did not mean to be condescending, I meant that as advice that I can only point to the truth, you need to comprehend the testimonies and understand what is really being claimed, I did not make this stuff up, it comes from testimonies corroborated by films and photographic evidence. You need to do the work. Now let me address a question to you. You posted ROSEMARY WILLIS as a proof that the first shot occurred at Z-162 or so. I posted evidence that ROSEMARYS actions had nothing to do with being attracted to a odd noise, but was because she was stopped from running with the limo into the kill zone, I also posted a gif of the woman with a cane or umbrella outstretched toward ROSEMARY, I also advised you that if you look at the Zapruder frames you will see ROSEMARY stops because of this woman and then turns to look at her. Also I would seriously doubt anyone using 1 witness within the Zapruder film as proof of an event that would have effected everyone depicted but no other reactions can be discerned. Has this evidence made you aware that ROSEMARY is not evidence of the first shot? ROSEMARY is evidence of a controlled kill zone. If not I would like to know why you are holding onto the belief that ROSEMARY was reacting to a noise?

First shot fired was at ~Z-189. It was not a conventional rifle with a silencer, it was likely a weapon operated by compressed gas, made for stealth made for assassination. Silent weapon could have been fired from the GK, evidenced by the fact that GAYLE NEWMAN and WILLIAM NEWMAN are among the few witnesses that heard this noise. Shot at Z-189 inflicted the throat wound. None of the seven people near the blue dot fired a weapon.

David, I have posted 40 pages of "STRAWMAN" evidence that all points to one conclusion, fairly remarkable feat!!!

James, not every experience from any specific witness is going to be 100% correct or meet all expectations of what one might think they should have said, and with absolute certainty the FBI confounded claims where it was possible as well as out right lies when they felt it was necessary. The WC led witnesses away from evidence they did not want revealed and stopped testimony that strayed to close to the truth. What has been posted is numerous data points that corroborate the first rifle shot occurring at Z-313, do you feel it essential to focus just on WOODWARD or does the weight of testimonies posted have a greater significance? What is important about WOODWARDS statement is not the 100 feet but that the first shot she heard was not when the limo was near her but much further down Elm street, also her claim most closely matches the other thirty-some witnesses posted. This thread concerns the first rifle shot heard in DP This is not the first shot fired. The first shot fired was at ~Z-189 and was a silenced shot (not a rifle shot), undetected by most witnesses.

James, this thread addresses the first rifle shot heard. If you had reviewed the SSA thread you might understand that there were 4 shots fired that day, the first one was fired (silenced shot) around Z-189 as evidenced by the reactions of READY, LANDIS, HICKEY and HILL (and BENNETT in WILLIS photograph), testimony confirms they all reacted to the sound of the first shot, this is the only time that all four agents react simultaneously. Yes we see JFK react, he receives a minor wound at about Z-189, BUT as the poison reacts so does he. NO one understood that JFK had been wounded including JACKIE, CONNALLYS may have, but that is another story. Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots. And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and Just as I looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time. IF the first rifle shot heard was at Z-313 then the second and third followed.

David, after looking over your post, instead of addressing other issues, it might be more beneficial for you to try to comprehend what is being presented, because if you can understand what actually occurred during the assassination the answers to your other inquiries will be self evident. I asked this question a few posts back and it is really pertinent, I have posted over 30 corroborating testimonies from witnesses that essentially claimed the first rifle shot heard occurred at Z-313, which caused JFK's fatal head wound, which caused the President to 'slump'. IF this evidence has not made an impact on you, then really, there is no explanation I can give you for P WILLIS or R WILLIS or HICKEY or WEST survey that you would believe anyway. I suggest you also review the thread on Secret Service agents response to help your understanding as to when the first shot actually occurred.

David, thank you for the questions. I will take some time to reread and address some of your points. But for now let me frame the purpose of this thread, it is to show researchers that there is abundant and compelling evidence available from witnesses throughout DP and as well as in the motorcade that provided testimony that essentially claims the first rifle shot they heard would have been at Z-313. ROSEMARY is not distracted by the sound of a rifle, it is a umbrella or cane wielding guard. ROSEMARY immediately stops running and turns to look back at this person. You have been mislead by confounded researchers searching for the evidence of a rifle shot were there is none. ROSEMARY CAN NOT BE the only witness in DP to have reacted to a rifle shot!

James It is much easier to estimate and recall distances than it would be to afterwards estimate a time element. MOST IMPORTANT : The testimony of WOODWARD is not anomalous, it corroborates and is corroborated by the testimonies already posted as well as many additional testimonies that may be posted, concerning the first rifle shot heard. It is not WOODWARDS testimony alone that needs to be addressed but all of the data points presented that indicate that first rifle shot heard occurred at Z-313 which was the cause of the fatal head wound and caused the President to 'slump' as described by many witnesses. What researchers need to come to realize is that the WC and their tool the news media altered our perception of the assassination and that misperception is what needs to be dissolved. Researches must understand no rifle shots were heard until Z-313 and no one in DP comprehended that the President had been wounded prior to seeing him 'slump' after being fatally wounded. Testimony that appears to support the WC three shot theory had either been influenced by FBI and news media propaganda or were intended lies.

Robert Post #3 MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD – FBI” Just as the President and Mrs. KENNEDY went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. KENNEDY probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots”

Mr. CRAWFORD - Southeast corner of the intersection. Mr. CRAWFORD - As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the Sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car - Mr. BALL - At that time? Mr. CRAWFORD - That's right; I couldn't even see the secret Service car, at least wasn't looking for it....

There are a five Parkland nurses that testified to the WC. Two of them were involved with KENNEDY Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound anywhere on his body? Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; he was very bloody, his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time. Mr. SPECTER - Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body? Miss HENCHLIFFE - When I first saw him---except his head. Mr. SPECTER - Did you see any wound on any other part of his body? Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes; in the neck. Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe it, please? Miss HENCHLIFFE - It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck. Mr. SPECTER - About how big a hole was it? Miss HENCHLIFFE - About as big around as the end of my little finger. Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes? Miss HENCHLIFFE - Yes. Mr. SPECTER - And what did that appear to you to be? Miss HENCHLIFFE - An entrance bullet hole it looked to me like. Mr. SPECTER - Could it have been an exit bullet hole? Miss HENCHLIFFE - I have never seen an exit bullet hole I don't remember seeing one that looked like that. Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what? Miss BOWRON - The back of his head. Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition? Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know. Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see? Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole. Mr. SPECTER - Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole? Miss BOWRON - No, sir. Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any other wound on the President's body? Miss BOWRON - No, sir. And an Affidavit Pat Hutton Affidavit " I then left at the request of the supervisor to get a plastic cover to line the coffin. I returned with it, and Mr. Kennedy was placed in the coffin to await orders to move him by ambulance."

So where was PO BAKER I believe when he says he was 20-30 feet from the corner this is exactly where he was, except it was the corner of Elm not Main.

Mark, criticism well deserved, thank you for setting me straight. Part of this is my frustration because there is so much information that could be posted to prove the 4 shot model, and it seems I am stuck trying to instruct kindergarteners on basic potty training. I have no clue if the children are even listening or just taking a nap.

I have provided proofs that the first rifle shot occurred at Z-313, proofs that witnesses lied to support the WC fiction. Do I need to provide another 34 witnesses that support the first rifle shot that is heard occurs at Z-313 or will that not be enough? Will there ever be enough evidence to wake from the entrancement from lies so strongly believed?

PO Baker 11/22 "Just as I approached Elm and Houston I heard three shots WC "Mr. BAKER - AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out." <Wrong answer BAKER, remember what we agreed you would say, lets try this again> WC "Mr. BELIN - Officer Baker, when we were in Dallas on March 20, Friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - And then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of Main Street as extended? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that would be this one right across here. Mr. BELIN - And we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of Main Street? Mr. BAKER - We approximated it was 60 to 80 feet there, north of the north curbline of Main on Houston. Mr. DULLES - Thank you. You know that Baker was just about to turn onto Elm Street when the first shot occurred because he was escorting close to CC#2 which was in the process of turning onto Elm when the first rifle shot occurs. But this is way too late to fit the WC three shot scenario so they had to move his location much further back towards Main, just like the guys did in CC#2 and CC#3, just a bunch of liars. Problem is keeping the lies straight.

Witnesses in CC#3, now that you know where camera car should be at the sound of the first rifle shot, either just starting to turn onto Elm or turning onto Elm. Read where these guys place the vehicle and remember these are the same guys the WC used to claim they may have seen a rifle in the window. James Underwood:"As we made the turn here at the intersection of Elm and Houston I heard first a loud report. " Dom Dillard : “Mr. Dillard stated the car in which he was riding had not approached the corner of Houston and Elm Streets when he heard a noise sounding like a “torpedo” (a large firecracker). He states upon hearing another sound similar to the first he realized it was gunfire. He states that upon hearing the third shot the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.” and (When asked exactly where they were on Houston when they heard the first shots) “just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when I heard the first explosion." and Dillard's car was about at the County Jail House. When Dillard heard the first shot and My car had just turned north on Houston Street and was at the County Jail entrance when the first shot was fired. Malcolm Couch "I would say, uh, 15 or 20 feet from the turn—from off of Main onto Houston…We had already completed the turn" They realized they could not have testimony placing the CC#3 making the turn so over time the location continued to regress down Houston farther from Elm. The press is not your friend. they are not there to tell you the truth, they are there to provide a conduit for the lies that shape public opinion to the will of those that rule us. No one in CC#3 saw a rifle, just a bunch of lie thru their teeth common news media whores.

Now that you understand where the cars actually where when the first rifle shot was heard, here are two testimonies from media people riding in CC#2, directly behind CC#1, which should have been in the process of turning onto Elm when the first shot occurred. These local Dallas prostitutes just outright lie to enhance the WC fiction. Clint Grant, a Dallas Morning News photographer, sat in the middle of the front seat. (Pictures of the Pain p.398, letter Grant to Trask 12-1-85) “we had just turned onto Houston Street when we heard one shot—pause—two shots in rapid succession. I thought it was someone playing a prank—maybe a kid’s cherry bomb.” (11-21-93 Reporters Remember journalism conference, as quoted in Reporting the Kennedy Assassination) “as we turned the corner at Main and Houston, I heard three shots ring out.” Cecil Stoughton, a photographer working for the White House, sat on the left side of the back seat. (3-1-71 interview with the Johnson Library)"We hadn't gotten to the corner yet. When we did get to the corner from Main turning onto Elm, the President's car must have just rounded the corner, and by the time we were halfway up that one block street, we heard these shots, which were obvious shots to my compatriots and I, sitting on the back of the convertible, wide open. We all looked around, and I made a remark to the extent: "These Texans really know how to give you a salute. They're probably firing off their .45's or firecrackers or something like that." It's just some kind of a noisy thing. But they were so definitely shots that it just worried me for a little bit." (Pictures of the Pain, p.38, based upon Trask interview 7-10-85) “Just after Stoughton’s car had made its turn at the Old Court House, he heard three very distinct, loud reports, which sounded like shots.”

National Press Pool Car - this car can be seen in front on CC#1 in Wiegman film, it is the dark colored sedan. Merriman Smith “We were at the point of coming out of an underpass when the first shot was fired. (substitute turn for underpass and this becomes true) Jack Bell “already had made the turn toward the underpass and we had just completed it when there was a loud report.” Robert Baskin “Over to our right loomed the gaunt structure labeled the Texas School Book Depository. It was 12:30 p.m. The sharp crack of a rifle rang out.” Bob Clark “But our car was just making the turn underneath the window where Oswald was firing.” Malcolm Kilduff, interview, 1991 “Just as we turned by the TSBD, I was directly under the window when we heard the first noise.” Five more witnesses that place the vehicle they were riding in at a location that places the first rifle shot they hear to be when the limo was at Z-313, there can be no other possibility. That makes 34 witnesses that claimed the first rifle shot they heard could not have occurred prior to Z-313.

Three witnesses riding in Camera Car #1, which was in the process of turning onto Elm street when the first rifle shot is heard. Thomas Atkins: “. Just as we turned, I remember looking at my watch…as I looked at my watch I heard an explosion.” Thomas Craven, “It was just as we were making the turn. Wiegman “I heard the first report and I thought like everybody else that it was a good sized fire cracker—a cherry bomb. Then when I heard the second one, the adrenaline really started pumping because there was a reaction in the motorcade. I was sitting on the edge of the (car door) frame, which I sometimes did. I keenly remember right after the incident that my feet were on the ground during one of the reports. I don’t think I was fast enough to react to the second, but I think on the third one I was running.” Here is a series of captures from Wiegman film, it tells you where the Camera Car #1 was located when the first rifle shot is heard and the second as well as when Wiegman was out of the car and running toward the source of the sounds. Camera Car #1 is clearly making the turn onto Elm at the moment Wiegman hears rifle shot number 1 I believe you can tell when the first rifle shot occurs by the motion of the camera that was panning right, immediately pans left towards the sound of the shots, as the motorcade came to a halt, Wiegman gets out of the car as shots 2 and 3 ring out, Wiegman runs directly toward the source of the sounds. Zapruder film is not the only film that provides the timing of the shots. Wiegman provides a more accurate timing of the three rifle shots. Note all three witness because of where they stated the CC#1 was at the moment of hearing the first shot, puts the limo at Z-313 at that moment, there is no other possibility. This make 29 witnesses that support the first rifle shot occurring at Z-313.

Jon, remember the first scenario proposed; first shot hit KENNEDY in the back causing a shallow wound, second shot wounds CONNALLY and the third shot causes the fatal head wound. The bullet found on the stretcher was claimed to be a match for the MC rifle and fell out of the shallow back wound when they tried to resuscitate KENNEDY. THEN TAGUE became an unsurmountable problem for the three shot three hit theory. They had to reinvent the 'pristine' bullet to be the 'magic' bullet and it then was claimed to have fallen out of CONNALLYS leg wound. The original scenario followed the planted evidence of the origin for the shots, the rifle, old and faulty ammunition, the 'pristine' bullet found and the shallow hole on KENNEDYS back. This also was the plausible reason why some people claimed to hear a 'firecracker' like sound for the first shot, this was also the plausible reason why the SSA failed to protect the President, they did not comprehend that a rifle shot had been fired at the President, they were confused. The shallow hole in KENNEDYS back was attributed to poor ammunition, which could not drive the bullet any deeper than an inch into KENNEDY, the poor ammunition would also be the reason that the first shot did not sound like a rifle shot and the excuse why no one reacted.

Why didn't you just say that pneumothorax means collapsed lung? One theory I heard many years ago and I guess has been dismissed for whatever reason seems to me to have a ring of truth and that is KENNEDY was first struck not by a common missile but by a projectile that had a toxin on it, a candidate offered was blowfish toxin. In wiki here is a snippet from the article on ingesting blow fish toxin: "followed by numbness and prickling over the body, rapid heart rate, decreased blood pressure, and muscle paralysis. The toxin paralyzes diaphragm muscles and stops the person who has ingested it from breathing" How high a dose did KENNEDY receive, enough to cause immediate paralysis and effect his lungs? Look at the Z-film, KENNEDY raises his hands to his face then he seems to slowly drift off as he may be loosing consciousness. His reaction to me is not someone who is has just received a minor wound, it is someone who has been poisoned and in extreme pain, this is my opinion. If the Doctors at Parkland ran into lung problems they certainly weren't looking for problems that could have been caused by anything other than brunt trauma caused by bullets. I believe KENNEDY was poisoned by the first shot. Otherwise why did 'they' risk taking this silent frontal shot? Why not just shoot KENNEDY in the head with a rifle shot?

Robert, I thought my questions were very clear, may I ask them again in case you missed them? The conspirators created a 'pristine' bullet as irrefutable evidence of the connection to the MC rifle, what explanation do you think they considered as plausible for it's existence if it is not the shallow hole made in KENNEDYS back? Can you provide what would be a reasonable explanation for the existence of the 'pristine' bullet? Can you provide what would be a reasonable explanation for the existence of a shallow wound on the back of Our President?

Jon, I am curious, if you would indulge me, it seems that you have some discomfort in accepting the proposal that the "pristine' bullet, the shallow hole in the back of KENNEDY and the planting of evidence was not completely preplanned, this would include two rifles and two bullets that would tie each missile to the exclusion of all others to each respective rifle. Exactly What is it about this proposal that you find unacceptable? I am in agreement with you about the "magic" bullet.