Steve Thomas

Gary and David. Could you boil this down for me? Are you saying that this is an American document, written by and American person, and that the rifle being displayed was a 7.35 caliber and not a 6.5? I had always thought the rifle came through Interarmco, but this document says it came through Adams? Or it might be one of the tens of thousand floating around on the black market? Steve Thomas

Larry, Thanks. I hadn't thought of that. Steve

Is anyone else having trouble accessing the Mary Ferrell Foundation websites? That would be really sad. Steve Thomas

David, Good catch on Moore and Adamcik. Thanks. Marina just happened to hold on to the BYP and the undated Walker note. Mr. McDONALD. What happened to that notebook? Mrs. PORTER. I don't know. Mr. McDONALD. Do you recall if Lee ever-- Mrs. PORTER. You mean now or then? Mr. McDONALD. Then, what happened then? Did Lee do anything to the notebook? Mrs. PORTER. Well, it is possibility that maybe it was destroyed. Mr. FITHIAN - Let's turn to the picture, the pictures, and the negatives which went along with them. You told the committee yesterday that you burned some of the evidence, some pictures, et cetera, after the assassination of President Kennedy; is that correct? Mrs. PORTER - Yes. Mr. McDONALD. And you were aware of this notebook that he kept. Mrs. PORTER. Well, I tried to recall in my memory how these things did happen, and by now maybe I assumed some things, so really I just know it as a fact that Lee did try to attempt on life of General Walker. He told me about that and that is the fact. Details of it, I do not remember. I don't want to mislead you different direction. Mr. McDONALD. But do you recall Lee ever burning the pages of this notebook in the bathroom? Mrs. PORTER. Well, afterwards, of course, I was petrified, you know, for what he did. I was afraid and--I was waiting for the police to knock on our door any minute, so I probably even myself would be eager to destroy any evidence that lead to arrest of Lee. Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember him destroying this notebook? Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember right now. Mr. FITHIAN - What other evidence or material did you destroy in your haste to try to get rid of evidence? Mrs. PORTER - As far as I know, only that, this picture. Mr. FITHIAN - In Lee's practice of writing a kind of a diary, did he keep letters from other people as a part of that sort of keeping a track or keeping a record of things? Mrs. PORTER - I don't know, sir. Mr. FITHIAN - What? Mrs. PORTER - I do not know. Mr. FITHIAN - Did you ever see any letters in his writing and material from others? Mrs. PORTER - I don't have a habit to go through, you know, somebody's belongings, so I don't remember everything, Steve Thomas

David, I was always struck by the offset dot in the i, and the H that doesn't connect. Steve Thomas

I don't know why, but something just hit me. If you look on pp. 486 and 488 of this "autobiography", there's a date of 11/23/63 and a bunch of initials. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=486&tab=page The RSS is probably Richard S. Stovall, and the GFR is probably Guy F. Rose - two of the Detectives who searched the 2515 W. 5th St. property in Irving. I don't know who the other two guys are: (Hmm and J Pa.) Is this the notebook that was lost or burned or had pages removed from it or whatever? Steve Thomas

Here are the two signatures. It's up to us I guess to decide if they were done by the same person. Steve Thomas

Jim, Larry Hancock and I poked around about this a while back. Since the card itself is so botched, it would never pass muster as a legitimate form of ID. We wondered if the fact that it was a form of military ID as opposed to some other form of ID was significant in some way. I speculated that it was the name, and especially the signature that was important. When Oswald admitted in Dallas that the card was his, but the signature wasn't, that's what led me on the quest that is the topic of this thread. What was so important about that signature? I decided that it was the signature that the authorities would use to tie him to the rifle purchase. Was the signature on both forged? If the signatures match, and if, as you say, "The rifle was definitely not ordered by Oswald", then whoever filled out that PO form also signed that SS card. Sadly, the HSCA did not ask the handwriting experts to make that analysis. The SS card was not included in the batch of 63 samples they looked at. Steve Thomas

David, I don't want to repeat your entire post, but compare his service record for the Spring of 1957 against this "autobiography" he supposedly wrote; especially the months of May-June. Do they match? https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10483#relPageId=479&tab=page I asked once where this "autobiography" came from, but no one replied. I've never really looked into the military record discrepancies that John Armstrong wrote about, but I wonder how he could be in California at the same time he's attending school in the southeastern U.S. Steve Thomas

David, He also brought up the subject of microdots in a conversation with Dennis Ofstein, if I remember right, as well as how Russian battle formations are laid out. I was just wondering the other day if I should go back and look at those letters home again. Steve Thomas

Sometimes, I am kind of slow on the uptake, but over the last couple of days, I've begun to realize that in watching the Lee and Marina Show, I was watching the Cold War of the 1960's being played out right in front of me. The U.S. had a strategy of sending false “defectors” disguised as disaffected ex-military personnel to the U.S.S.R., who would gather information and later recant and return to the U.S. Oswald is sent over there and within a year starts making plans to return. For six weeks, from mid November, 1959 to the beginning of January, 1960 Oswald goes incommunicado. When he emerges, he is assigned new Soviet officials he has never seen before, and is sent off to Minsk. When he gets back, he sits down and writes his Collective http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thecollective.htm. If I were a military planner, this Collective contains everything I would want to know about this particular factory. Its precise geographic location, how the streets are laid out, which buildings are located where, how many employees it has, which of those employees are Party members and which are not, how many of those employees are military, where they are housed and in what part of the factory they work, the name and physical description of the plant manager... it goes on. On his return, he portrays himself as a Marxist, but also tries to ingratiate himself into anti-Castro Cuban exile groups like the DRE and Alpha-66. He passes himself off as the leader of a fictional FPFC with no members who is a “street agitator”. The U.S.S.R. has its own “defection” program. Their method is to get Russian women to marry foreigners, get their husband to bring them back to the States and then divorce them. The White Russian community in Fort Worth were suspicious of the speed with which the Russians allowed Marina to emigrate. In reading through the Russian documents relating to Lee Oswald's stay in the Soviet Union, I realized that it wasn't the Russians blocking his return, it was the American State Department. (See almost all of volume XVIII of the WC Hearings and Exhibits. CE 985 is illuminating). Lee and Marina marry in April, 1961. On October 22, 1961 Lee Oswald writes to his to his mother, “We both agreeded (sic) that she should go to a new enviroment (sic) on her vaction (sic), but she comes back in a few more days on the 29th of October.” (CE 183 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=562&tab=page ) What newlyweds having been married for only six months, mutually agree that the wife should spend her only vacation in a different city 600 miles away? Within two months of her arrival, Marina is letting it be known that Oswald is “abusing” her, and that she needs to be “rescued”. I think she played George Bouhe like a song. He and George Demohrenschildt decide Marina needs to be “taken away” from Lee. They swoop in, gather up her belongings and cart her off to the Mellers. George DeMohreschildt WC testimony. This was in 1964. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. “Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it. After having been in the United States for only two months or so, how and when had Marina communicated to Jeanne that she would be leaving Lee? On February 1, 1962 Marina writes her first letter to the Soviet Embassy telling them that she want to return to the U.S.S.R. She has been in the U.S. for seven months. Had she completed whatever mission she was on when she came here? In my heart of hearts, I think it's got something to do with that “missing” two weeks between October 19 and November 3, 1962, when nobody knew where Lee was living, all the while when he was working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall during the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This reminds me so much of those early weeks in Russia. To me, this is a microcosm of the Cold War played out between these two individuals right in front of me. Steve Thomas

Jim, Thanks for this. I think Lisa Pease ranks up there with the best of them. Steve Thomas

Jeff, Yes. I caught that last part too. I remember reading that DeMohrenschildt said he had only met Ruth Paine on two occasions, and then here he is calling her up and inviting them over for dinner. I thought to myself, that's kind of odd. I read through Marina's HSCA testimony again. There is nothing in there about George and George Bouhe forcing the issue of the Oswald's separating and moving her out of the Elsbeth St. location to the Mellers. Something caught my eye about Marina speaking English: WC testimony of Mahlon Tobias, Manager of apartment on Elsbeth. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tobias_m.htm Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she was--would come out in her front yard--I sat in her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring the baby out and, of course, I think she could talk more English than what she put on she could, because he didn't want her to anyway. Mr. JENNER. How do you know that? Mr. TOBIAS. Because she told the wife that he didn't want her to learn it. Mr. JENNER. Did she give any reason? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; she said people will be mean to her. CE 183 Letter from Lee to Marguerite 10/22/59 (should be 10/22/61) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=563&tab=page “Marina unfortunately doesn't speak any English at all, I would like her to learn and I have bought some books for her on the subject, but for now she doesn't want to learn. She speaks a little already (she learned in grammar school), and she doesn't want to study another language for now. She really doesn't have the time you know, what with working from 10-5 and then the house work...” George DeMohreschildt WC testimony. This was in 1964. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. “Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it. We gave her some records to study English--not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, and they obviously still have those records.” Hmmmmm... Right from the very first day huh? I think that whole business of Lee not allowing Marina to learn English so that she would be dependent on him is so much bullhockey. She was refusing to learn, or at least pretending that she didn't know any. Steve Thomas

Jeff, Thanks. That worked. You did a lot of work for that article. One thing that struck me. The picture of June in the back yard: In his WC testimony, George DeMohrenschildt said, " Mr. JENNER. Your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev. It's kind of true, isn't it? Steve Thomas

Jeff, Thank you for your response. I got to thinking about the "Hunter For Fascists" slogan on the back. If I remember right, the HSCA handwriting analysis was not able to determine that the handwriting was Marina's, and I got to wondering if it was George (or maybe even Jeanne) who wrote it. Didn't George die before he could testify before the HSCA? I guess nobody had the chance to ask him if the writing was his. I wonder if that was why he tried to claim copyright. But, then again, your reference to Ruth Paine having access to the DeMohrenschildt's storage locker is very interesting. In his book about Oswald, George said that he and Jeanne were puzzled about how that box of records got into their storage locker. I know you're probably aware of all this, but If you'll indulge me for a minute, I just wanted to put this down on paper to get my thoughts in order. On this website by Jeremy Bojczuk http://22november1963.org.uk/did-lee-oswald-shoot-general-edwin-walker he writes: “Ruth Paine, with whom Marina had been staying at the time of the assassination, sent her a Russian–language book. Tucked inside the book was the handwritten note.” The note was undated, and did not mention General Walker or any reason why Oswald might find himself under arrest. There are several reasons to doubt the authenticity of the handwritten note: Ruth Paine’s home had been searched thoroughly on the afternoon of the assassination, and again the following day, when Paine claimed to have seen officers specifically looking for loose papers within books (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.3, p.87). The inventory of items discovered is 49 pages long, but does not mention the note (FBI HQ Oswald File, 105–82555–24). Although the FBI’s handwriting expert considered that the note was in Oswald’s handwriting (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.7, p.437), only one of the three experts who were consulted by the House Select Committee on Assassinations considered the note to be authentic (HSCA Report, appendix vol.8, pp.232–246). The Bureau’s fingerprint expert found seven sets of fingerprints on the note. None of them belonged to either Lee or Marina Oswald (FBI HQ JFK Assassination File, 62–109060–36 CE 1785 Secret Service Report by Leon Gopadze December 3, 1963. The note was “found in a book entitled, Book of Helpful Instructions belonging to Mrs. Marina Oswald.” Ruth sent Marina this book while Marina was at the Six Flags Motel. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm Mr. McDONALD. Directing your attention to that day, April 10, 1963, would you tell us what happened? Mrs. PORTER. Well, I cannot remember the timing all the very vivid details of day. I just can state it that that particular night he did not come home until very late, and when he did not come home at regular time, I was worried about him. So I found a note addressed to me what to do in case if he did not come home. Of course I was petrified. Nobody I can turn to. But then later that night when he came home, I asked him to explain. He was out of breath and he was pale, and asked him to explain this note, and he said that "I just shot General Walker." Mr. McDONALD. You mentioned a note, he left you a note. Mrs. PORTER. Yes. Mr. McDONALD. Where was this note left? Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember right now, but I think it could be in the closet, on the table there. Mr. McDONALD. And what did you do with the note when he returned home? Mrs. PORTER. I don't remember. Mr. McDONALD. Is that note in existence now? Mrs. PORTER. I don't know. Mr. McDONALD. And you were aware of this notebook that he kept. Mrs. PORTER. Well, I tried to recall in my memory how these things did happen, and by now maybe I assumed some things, so really I just know it as a fact that Lee did try to attempt on life of General Walker. He told me about that and that is the fact. Details of it, I do not remember. I don't want to mislead you different direction. Mr. McDONALD. But do you recall Lee ever burning the pages of this notebook in the bathroom? Mrs. PORTER. Well, afterwards, of course, I was petrified, you know, for what he did. I was afraid and--I was waiting for the police to knock on our door any minute, so I probably even myself would be eager to destroy any evidence that lead to arrest of Lee. Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember him destroying this notebook? Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember right now. She would be eager to destroy any evidence that connected Lee to Walker's shooting, but managed to hold on to the notebook, the pictures of Walker's house, this note, the backyard photos, and the DeMohreschildt picture. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/demohr_g.htm Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression. Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife. Marina Oswald's HSCA Deposition TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1977 http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm Maybe I'm just being bitchy at the moment, but I can just picture Marina batting her eyes while she says this, "What? Little old me? I don't want to impugn somebody, but... Q. Do you have any recollection of him ever saying anything about these particular poses or the photographs? A. Let me turn back what strikes my memories, George de Mohrenschildt came--I am not trying to confuse you, you know, give you a false statement. I try to get my memory to go. What strikes me, I think I was surprised that he showed pictures to George de Mohrenschildt because I thought the rifle and the gun, first of all I was always against it so, if in my memory I remember being surprised at him showing pictures like that to George, so apparently I saw them at the apartment. Q. You remember him showing the pictures to George? A. Something strikes my memory that how dare he show pictures like that to a friend. Q. Would you think about it for a few moments and tell me if you can remember anything else about him showing either or both of these photographs to George de Mohrenschildt? A. I don't want to cast shadows on somebody that is maybe innocent and comments they maybe did not make. Q. I am not asking you to say anything good or bad about Mr. De Mohrenschildt, just simply tell me if you remember that particular incident, him showing these pictures to George de Mohrenschildt. A. It is so hard to dig in your memory 13 years ago. Q. Take your time. A. I vaguely remember because it still strikes my memory it surprised me that he showed them to him, so apparently it was at the apartment. It sounds to me like not only Lee was being set up, but George DeMohrenschildt too. Steve Thomas

Bart, If, and this is a big if, that is a motel room, clues might be found in the WC testimony of James Martin. " Mr. MARTIN. Let's see-- well, I remember his first name now, Mike Howard, and Charles Kunkel, Lee Gopadze was there part of the time. They seemed to change quite frequently." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/martin_jh.htm Steve Thomas

Jeff, I don't know why, maybe it's just my computer, but when I try to follow the link you provide, I just get a blank page. I have a question about the DeMohrenschildt photo. Do you know off the top of your head, if I give you something - a photo, or a song, or a book I wrote, or whatever; even if the original giver is dead, can you copyright it? Steve Thomas

David, And I thought Lee's bio was FUBAR'd. Look at these two documents: Reggab knew Marina in Moscow. She was a punch card operator on business machines. He main ambition was to marry a foreigner and leave the Soviet Union, but he believed her opposition to the USSR was faked as a way of getting her out of the country. Now, if she could only have been a disaffected Marine, we'd have a trifecta. *smile* https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36105#relPageId=2&tab=page https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36107 Steve Thomas

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us approximately when you first met Ruth Paine? Mrs. OSWALD. Soon after New Years I think it was in January. Mr. RANKIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever visit you at Elsbeth Street? Mrs. OSWALD. At Neely, on Neely Street. Mr. RANKIN. But not at Elsbeth? Mrs. OSWALD. We moved soon after that acquaintance. The Oswalds supposedly moved to Neely St. on March 3rd. Mrs. PAINE - I was invited to come to the home of Everett Glover to meet a few friends of his, and I judge that was on the 22d of February looking back at my calendar. Mrs. PAINE - It was Friday evening. Mr. JENNER - Friday evening? Mrs. PAINE - The 22d was Friday If Marina met Ruth Paine on February 22nd, shortly before moving to Neely in March, why did she think it was January? Steve Thomas

David, Just for the record, the photos were allegedly taken on March 31st. As I pointed out in the thread on the possibility of Marina ordering the rifle, once again Marina places the rifle at Neely St. in February, before they even moved there. What is going on here? Steve Thomas

Pamela, I hate saying, "me too", but in this case, I'm going to say it. Steve Thomas

Joe, It's not just you who can't remember how Marina destroyed the photo. Marina couldn't either. This is from her HSCA testimony: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm Mr. McDONALD. How did you destroy the photograph? Mrs. PORTER. Well, I had been told I burned it. That is probably-- Mr. McDONALD. Do you remember doing that? Mrs. PORTER. Very vaguely. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar3.htm Mr. FORD - Who brought it to your attention that you had destroyed some of the photos of Lee taken with the rifle and the handgun, and how were they aware that you had destroyed some of the pictures? Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember who pointed this out to me. Mr. FORD - You don't recall who? Mrs. PORTER - No; I don't. Mr. FITHIAN - Do you remember burning any negatives, that is, the film from which the picture is made? Mrs. PORTER - No. Mr. FITHIAN - All you remember is burning pictures themselves? Mrs. PORTER - I vaguely remember destroying the pictures, a picture. Mr. FITHIAN - What other evidence or material did you destroy in your haste to try to get rid of evidence? Mrs. PORTER - As far as I know, only that, this picture. Mr. DODD - and in a question to you yesterday, you said that you did not recall whether anyone had told you to destroy them or whether anyone was with you when you destroyed them. I would like to ask you again, Mrs. Porter--it is a very important question--whether or not anyone suggested to you, advised you, assisted you in any way in the destruction of those photographs after the assassination of the President. Mr. DODD - But you do remember destroying them? Mrs. PORTER - I do remember destroying, as a fact. Mr. DODD - Do you remember how you destroyed them? Mrs. PORTER - I think somebody reminded me that I burned it. That rings the bell. Mr. DODD - How did you destroy them? Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember where I was, who was around, absolutely nothing. Mr. DODD - In your memory can you see yourself destroying them? Mrs. PORTER - I see only--No, I do not. Mr. DODD - So you do not know how you destroyed them? Mrs. PORTER - No. Mr. DODD - And you have absolutely no recollection? Mrs. PORTER - Not today, I do not. I am not refusing to answer it, but I do not want to paint picture that it was not existing. Mr. DODD - Is your recollection that you destroyed these photographs before or after the FBI came to visit you? Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember. I had many visits. Mrs. PORTER - The first FBI visit? I do not remember. Mr. DODD - You do not remember whether you destroyed them before the FBI visit or after the FBI visit? Mrs. PORTER - I do not remember. It was lots of officials. It was Secret Service and police, FBI all the time around. Mr. FITHIAN - Mrs. Porter, when you destroyed the photographs, did it not occur to you that there would be negatives around somewhere and that you ought to look for those and destroy them too? Mrs. PORTER - No, it did not occur to me. Mr. FITHIAN - Has it occurred to you since as to what happened to the negatives, since clearly we have had three different pictures there would have to be three different negatives somewhere? The Warren Commission reports say only one, and we will deal with that at another time, but do you know what happened to any of the negatives? Mrs. PORTER - I assume that the government has them. Mr. FITHIAN - I am sorry? Mrs. PORTER - When they confiscate Lee's belongings, I assume they got the negatives from there. Mr. FITHIAN - You did not burn the negatives? Mrs. PORTER - I don't remember, recall, doing that. Steve Thomas

Dawn, I wish you would contribute every now and then. I always looked forward to your posts. You helped me out a lot in the past. Steve Thomas

David, I wonder what her "acute medical problems" were. Phillips wrote this in June of 73? and she had been on sick leave since July, 72? and was waiting for her retirement in October? It must have been pretty bad. I hope she didn't suffer. Steve Thomas

David, You wrote, " but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card." I have different issues with the library card, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion. The only two people who address the subject of an address being discussed on the ride from the Theater to downtown were Bob Carroll and Gerald Hill. Carroll said that no address was mentioned, and Hill said there were two addresses found on Oswald's ID - one in Oak Cliff, and one in Irving. We know that Oswald did not have any ID with an Irving St. address on him, so that makes the Oak Cliff address, i.e. the library card suspicious in my mind. You wrote, OR AT LEAST ADMITTING TO IT... SHE ALSO AGREED TO ADMIT TO TAKING 3 OR 4 PHOTOS WHEN SHE COULDN'T HAVE POSSIBLY HAVE TAKEN EVEN 1... a PROCESS EVEN SHE WOULD HAVE TO REMEMBER During one of her testimonies (I don't remember which one) she said she took the pictures by holding the camera up to her eye. If she did that, she would have poked her eye out. You wrote, " THE RIFLE WAS NEVER ORDERED, NEVER SHIPPED, NEVER DELIVERED..." I only put that in about the rifle being picked up, because, if a rifle was shipped, we have no way of knowing who picked it up. It could have been anybody. As Harry Holmes told the WC, Mr. HOLMES. "Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory---I am surmising now, because nobody knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, "I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it." I'll take the 2%. Steve Thomas