Steve Thomas

John,

Are their any documents in the UK that might help to understand the Kennedy assassination?

It would be interesting to know what they have on Jean Rene Marie Souetre of the OAS

Steve Thomas

IMO,

As far as his level of intelligence. Note how well he comes off in a rehearsed fashion in interviews and at the American Embassy in Moscow and then falls apart when he has to adlib.

Everyone who interrogated Oswald over the weekend of 11/22 - 11/24 came away with the nagging suspicion that Oswald had been trained in interrogation techniques.

Steve Thomas

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR, This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?

Mr. SENATOR, Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?

From Ian Griggs on the Lancer Forum July 1, 2003:

(1) A Casselbury, FL FBI report of 3rd September 1976 describes a meeting of ex-Carousel Club employees in Dallas about three weeks after the assassination. They wewre discussing back pay, among other things. (QUOTE): "During this meeting he (Ralph Paul) was talking with Kathy Kay in the presence of Billy Willis, a drummer, about Jack Ruby killing Lee Harvey Oswald. Kay told him that she haddanced with the man who shot President Kennedy about one month before the

shooting, which was about a week before Weston slugged the customer who called him a Communist. Kay remarked that it was the same man that shot President Kennedy that she had danced with earlier and that Weston had slugged."

(2) From a Tampa, FL FBI report of 21st September 1976: (QUOTE):

"Wally Weston, a former Master of Cereminies at the Carousel Club (said that) he could establish that Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald knew each other before the assassination of President Kennedy and that Kathy Kay, a former stripper at the Carousel Club, could corroborate his story."

So there we have two claims that KK saw LHO in the Carousel Club. Against that, however, we have the following, in which she denies it.

(3) FBI San Francisco report (10th September 1976) to J. Edgar Hoover includes (QUOTE):

"Coleman (that's Kathy Kay) denied that she ever made any utterance to Wally Weston that she had danced with lee Harvey Oswald at the

Carousel Club prior to the assassination of President Kennedy."

(4) FBI airtel from Hoover to FBI offices at Dallas, Miami and Los Angeles, dated 5th September 1976 includes (QUOTE): "Kay allegedly told Weston that Oswald was the man Westonm punched and she had danced with Oswald." Later in the same airtel, we have (QUOTE): "She testified under oath that she had never seen Oswald at the Carousel Club and had never seen him or heard of him prior to 11/22/63. She was asked if Ruby knew Oswald and she said she did not think so."

Steve Thomas

Tim,

He told me that he had reviewed the files of Waggoner Carr (as you know, the Texas AG in 1963-1964) and in those files were reports of Ruby and Oswald being seen together at "gay bars" in the Houston area. Has anyone heard of these reports?

Read the statement of Travis Benkendorfer about Helen K. Smith aka Pixie Lynn in the Dallas Police Archives, Box 18 Folder # 11, Item # 3.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm

In the parlance of the day, "Dirt Trade" was a man passed around other men.

Picie Lynn would deny making these statements in Box 5, Folder # 7, Item# 27

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

Steve Thomas

Armstrong Exhibit 5303-K

Steve Thomas

Wilbyrn Litchfield testified before the Warren Commission on April 16, 1964. (14H95). In his police affidavit of December 2nd, he had spoken of a man he thought looked like Oswald wearing a V-necked white sweater in the Carousel.

In his WC testimony, he was shown a picture of photographer Eddie Rocco (Armstrong exhibit 5302 in 19H36) and asked if that man looked the man he saw, whom he thought looked like Oswald. Litchfield said no.

If the interrogator has gone two pictures over, Litchfield might have had more to say.

William Crowe aka Bill DeMar testified on June 2, 1964 (15H96) that he had told people on Sunday November 24th that he had seen a man in the Carousel a week before the assassination that he thought looked like Oswald, who had been in the first row, and whom he had used in his memory act.

Crowe was shown a series of pictures that the interrogator referred to as Crafard exhibits 5205, 5206, 5212 and 5221, but were actually a series of Armstrong exhibits 5303 I through M (19H36 +)

Crowe was asked if the man up on the stage in 5303 J (19H37) looked like the man he thought was Oswald. Crowe said no.

Crowe was asked if the man in 5303 K (19H38) with his side facing the camera and not smiling looked like the man he thought was Oswald. Crowe said no.

Take a look at 5303 J (19H37) and 5303 K (19H38) and see if you don't see a man in a white V-necked white sweater.

These pictures were apparently taken in the Carousel in the first week of November, right when Litchfield said he was there.

Steve Thomas

Sometime in the middle of the Summer of 1963, a very large man started coming in the Carousel Club. The workers nicknamed him "Tiny" and the bartender and "general manager", Andrew Armstrong said that he very rarely missed a weekend. In light of the fact that some people said they thought they saw Oswald in the Carousel, the Warren Commission developed some interest in this person. You can see this person in vol. 19 of the Hearings and Exhibits under Armstrong Exhibit# 5303-I (copied below). He is the person to the right of the picture, in a white shirt, just behind the microphone.

Ralph Paul (14H160)

Mr. HUBERT. I'm now going to show you a picture which has been identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her?

Mr. PAUL. That's the same Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. That's Kathy Kay?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with the white shirt, the very heavy man?

Mr. PAUL. This one over here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. I don't know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him there?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never did?

Mr. PAUL. No--there isn't a familiar face in there. What is he supposed to be?

Karen “Little Lynn” Carlin (13H215)

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember a rather large heavy fat man, very heavily built, who used to come to the Carousel almost every weekend and used to sit close by the stage and sort of carry on a banter with the theatre?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who he is?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; about 300 pounds.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Used to beat on the stage and holler and scream. I don't remember--I don't know his name. I never did meet him, but I remember him.

Andrew Armstrong (13H363)

Mr. HUBERT. Let's then take Exhibit No. 5303-A, first, and tell me whom you recognize in that picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. This right here--the first picture.

Mr. HUBERT. We are talking about the top picture on the left hand side right?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--is Joy Dale, and the M.C. that's shown in all of these pictures, the little man on the stage give me a minute and I will try to think of his name, but coming down the line, the second picture on the left hand side is Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. That's the girl?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the girl--she is being held up by a very huge gentleman by the name of--oh--I know his name-- his name is Tiny--he comes in the club quite often and he usually gets the same seat--a special chair we had there for him.

Mr. HUBERT. This picture appears several times, does it not?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, it appears in the third row of the left-hand picture?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it appears in the bottom row of the left-hand picture, correct?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. How often would that man come to the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he started to coming there back in the summer--last summer and he was usually there he very seldom missed a weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him only as Tiny?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. As Tiny.

Mr. HUBERT. You never heard his last name?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he friendly with Ruby?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not friendly--just that--he didn't well, you could say they was friendly, but they didn't know each other, anything about each other's backgrounds, or anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. He always came alone?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. One time he came there with a couple other guys, but just once, otherwise, he was all alone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know the other men he came with?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember when he came in with the other two men?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--the top picture is----

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, before we leave the big man called Tiny, when was the last time you saw him, to your knowledge?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four nights ago---Saturday night--I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean this past Saturday night?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about April 11?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have saw him in there, oh, about four times I think in the last month--I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that, when was the last time you saw him?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Prior to that--the last time I saw him was at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say it was probably the last weekend before we closed.

Mr. HUBERT. He continued to come to the club, then, after the assassination?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about Ruby's shooting Oswald?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him talk to anybody else about it?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did. The reason why he's got to be so popular is because he is a helper--he cracks a few jokes and the M.C.'s like to talk to him because he don't get out of line when they talk to him, and he is usually called on during the spinning of the roulette wheel, or something like that, and if he won a bottle of champagne or something like that, it was a big thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he employed by the club?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he wasn't employed, he was just a regular customer that has very nice conduct and has a good sense of humor.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the M.C.'s figure they can always get a kick out of him, which would amuse the audience?

Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.

George Senator – (14H272)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don't know who he is, but I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?

Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can't see the faces here. But I can't help but recognize him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR, This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?

Mr. SENATOR, Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?

Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I don't know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

I got to wondering if Tiny had ever been identified and ever asked what, if anyhting, he had to add to the question of whether he ever saw Oswald, or an Oswald look-alike in the Carousel Club in the months and days leading up to November 22nd.

Steve Thomas

Tim,

I'm sure all Forum members are familiar with the Dalllas police officer (county sheriff or Dallas PO, I do not recall) who received a phone call early in the morning of Nov 24, 1963 warning that LHO was to be shot.  He later stated he was certain it was Jack Ruby's voice.

I remember seeing that in The Men Who Killed Kennedy series, but I don't believe it happened. The calls apparently were received at the FBI office and maybe one at the sheriff's office.

Here's what the law enforcement officers said in their WC testimony. Frazier and Talbert were Captains in the Patrol Division. Frazier had the 11:00 PM to 7:00 AM shift, Talbert had the 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM shift. Notice that neither Frazier, nor Talbert make any mention of a call coming in directly to the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. HUBERT - Have you been given any warning by the FBI that they had received a message, or had the message been received, I think, by your office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure Oswald?

Mr. DECKER - That's along 12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning (on the 24th) -- that's when that occurred… Anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man, Sergeant McCoy, and he had received a call from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Milt Newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going to be killed and that he had good information. He relayed that message to me at my home, and I asked him had the city been notified and he said, "Yes."

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 24th of November, about in the middle of the shift there, about 3 or 3:30 or 3:45 that morning, I understand you received a telephone call from an FBI agent, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; Mr. Newsom, I believe his name is.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how it came to you? How did the call come to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Newsom called me and said he had received a threat from some man to the effect that a group of men, I believe he indicated they had 100 or 200, I don't recall the exact number, were going to attempt to kill Oswald that day sometime. That he didn't want the FBI, Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office injured in any way. That was the reason for the call. So, Mr. Newsom called me and related that story to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you heard any of that news of that sort from another source?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Deputy Cox, or Coy in the sheriffs--

Mr. FRAZIER. I talked to that man later on in the morning after Mr. Newsom called me. But I don't know the name, whether it was Coy, or Cox, but he indicated that Sheriff Decker wanted to talk to Chief Curry in regards to moving Oswald, so, I, in turn then attempted to contact Chief Curry by telephone and his line was busy.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you spoke to Mr. Newsom from the FBI whether Mr. Newsom told you that the Dallas Sheriff's Office had received a similar call to the one he was relating to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I don't recall that. He possibly--he could have said it, but I do not recall it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either Cox or Coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to take place, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. I assume that is what it was. He indicated to me that Decker wanted to get ahold of Chief Curry and move him as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that man mention to you about the receipt of any threats such as Newsom had told you about?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the second threat you had received that morning? In other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. You heard it from the FBI, and this man from the sheriff's office?

Mr. FRITZ. During the night on Saturday night, I had a call at my home from uniformed captain, Captain Frazier, I believe is his name, he called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had to transfer Oswald…I have always felt that that was Ruby who made that call, I may be wrong, but he was out late that night and I have always felt he might have made that call...

Captain TALBERT. The morning of the 24th I reported when--I gave my time of duty as 7 to 3. Actually, we report about an hour early so that we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have to make. So, at approximately 6 o'clock, I reported to our office and relieved Captain Frazier.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time that you relieved Captain Frazier, did he convey any information to you?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?

Captain TALBERT. Said he had a communication with Sheriff Decker and Mr. Newsom, with the FBI, and both were anxious to transfer Oswald at the time. Transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. That he couldn't call him.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then with reference to the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. Continued his efforts to contact the chief through--going through the telephone exchange. I wanted to contact him by telephone. He had contacted Captain Fritz with the information from both Mr. Newsom and the sheriff, and Captain Fritz said he couldn't transfer him until the chief authorized it.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you say to the chief?

Captain TALBERT. I repeated the conversation that Frazier had told me that the sheriff had told him, and also Mr. Newsom had told him about two calls received by the FBI office during the night. Both by men speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before Oswald reached the county jail "A hundred of us will see that he is dead." And the request by Sheriff Decker, and Mr. Newsom, that he be transferred immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your understanding that Newsom had received a message twice?

Captain TALBERT. His office. Not Mr. Newsom personally. His office.

Chief CURRY - That's right. We felt that if an attempt was made on him, that it would be made by a group of people. Some of the threats that had been made during the night was, "this is a group of one hundred and we will take the prisoner before you get him to the county jail," so we really expected trouble, if we had trouble, from a group of people and not an individual.

You asked:

Was Ruby a reluctant killer? It seems strange that if Ruby had really intended to kill LHO he did not go for a head shot. People do survive shots to the stomach.

According to Detective Clardy, who spoke to Ruby in the immediate aftermath, Ruby intended to get off three shots, but didn't have time:

Detective CLARDY. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"--or, "Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be stopped before I got off three shots." But, that, I----

Steve Thomas

John,

Do you know if anyone from the Congress of Freedom was involved in the Suite 8F Group?

Don't know about that, but here's the kind of people we're dealing with...

From Jerry P. Shinley Archive:

Brief Review of General Edwin Walker FBI Files

http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsbrwfbif.html

Two associates of General Walker, Arch Roberts and Clyde Watts, are identified as members of the Congress of Freedom.

From Mary Ferrell database: General Clyde Watts was Walker’s attorney.

“The Attempted Coup Against FDR”

By Barbara LaMonica

Probe Magazine From the March-April 1999 issue (Vol. 6 No. 3)

http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr399-fdr.html

"The main function of these hate groups was to enforce the will of right-wing corporate America, seeking to regain the political power it lost in the 1932 election. On the grassroots level, this intention translated into supporting the efforts of management to stop workers from unionizing. The most glaring example of this is the struggle at the General Motors plants (General Motors was owned by the DuPonts). The DuPonts employed the Black Legion, a sort of Northern Klux Klux Klan, which would terrorize workers, bomb union halls, and torture and murder organizers. The Legion was organized into arson squads, execution squads, and anti-Communist squads. Discipline within its own ranks was maintained with the weapons of torture or death and was strictly enforced. The LaFollette Committee found that the Legion had penetrated police departments, high government offices, and the Michigan Republican Party. These groups also acted as intelligence networks. They infiltrated unions, leftwing groups, and universities, and they sold their information to industry. One example of such an intelligence agency was the American Vigilant Intelligence Federation, headquartered in Chicago and operated by Harry Jung. Jung later relocated to New Orleans where he was an associate of Guy Bannister, who also hailed from Chicago. Banister’s Detective Agency was spying for right-wing businesses as well. Some believe it may have been in Jung’s hotel in New Orleans that the famous Congress of Freedom meeting took place in the Spring of 1963. At this meeting, with Edwin Walker and Joseph Milteer in attendance, a police informant [Willie Sommerset] reported there was talk of murdering national leaders."

Steve Thomas

John,

Do you know if anyone from the Congress of Freedom was involved in the Suite 8F Group?

Don't know about that, but here's the kind of people we're dealing with...

From Jerry P. Shinley Archive:

Brief Review of General Edwin Walker FBI Files

http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsbrwfbif.html

Two associates of General Walker, Arch Roberts and Clyde Watts, are identified as members of the Congress of Freedom.

From Mary Ferrell database: General Clyde Watts was Walker’s attorney.

“The Attempted Coup Against FDR”

By Barbara LaMonica

Probe Magazine From the March-April 1999 issue (Vol. 6 No. 3)

http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr399-fdr.html

"The main function of these hate groups was to enforce the will of right-wing corporate America, seeking to regain the political power it lost in the 1932 election. On the grassroots level, this intention translated into supporting the efforts of management to stop workers from unionizing. The most glaring example of this is the struggle at the General Motors plants (General Motors was owned by the DuPonts). The DuPonts employed the Black Legion, a sort of Northern Klux Klux Klan, which would terrorize workers, bomb union halls, and torture and murder organizers. The Legion was organized into arson squads, execution squads, and anti-Communist squads. Discipline within its own ranks was maintained with the weapons of torture or death and was strictly enforced. The LaFollette Committee found that the Legion had penetrated police departments, high government offices, and the Michigan Republican Party. These groups also acted as intelligence networks. They infiltrated unions, leftwing groups, and universities, and they sold their information to industry. One example of such an intelligence agency was the American Vigilant Intelligence Federation, headquartered in Chicago and operated by Harry Jung. Jung later relocated to New Orleans where he was an associate of Guy Bannister, who also hailed from Chicago. Banister’s Detective Agency was spying for right-wing businesses as well. Some believe it may have been in Jung’s hotel in New Orleans that the famous Congress of Freedom meeting took place in the Spring of 1963. At this meeting, with Edwin Walker and Joseph Milteer in attendance, a police informant [Willie Sommerset] reported there was talk of murdering national leaders."

Steve Thomas

Does anyone know when the Congress of Freedom Convention (if you can call it that) took place in New Orleans in April, 1963?

From:

Jerry P. Shinley Archive

General Edwin Walker's New Orleans Links

Date: 1998/07/28

http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsgwnol.html

"Another Walker-New Orleans link is through George Soule, president of Soule Business College. In 1962, George Soule was "community chairman" of the New Orleans Indignation Committee. (NOTP; February 8, 1962; s2, p4) In January, Walker had addressed this group, via closed-circuit TV, at a meeting held at Soule College. (NOTP; January 4, 1962; s1, p14)

In 1963, Soule was chairman of the 12th Annual National Congress of Freedom. (Who's Who in the South and Southwest 1963 - 1964) General Walker's lawyer, Clyde Watts, was a speaker at this event. (NOTP; April 7, 1963). J. A. Milteer was also in attendance. (Weisberg; Frame-Up; p481)"

Looks like the New Orleans Times Picyune reported the Convention as April 7, 1963 - some 17 days before Oswald moved there.

Steve Thomas

Does anyone know when the Congress of Freedom Convention (if you can call it that) took place in New Orleans in April, 1963?

From the Cuban Information Archives.

Assassinations: The Miami Link, by Dan Chirstiansen.

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_101-125/doc0122.html

Milteer had attended the April 1963 meeting in New Orleans as a representative of the Dixie Klan, a notoriously violent faction of the KKK based in Chattanooga, Tenn. And advocated a coordinated assassination program that would eliminate a long list of prominent government officials and businessmen. He felt that the "patriot" organizations should act swiftly because Kennedy was on the verge of turning the U.S. government over to the United Nations.

"Somersett smelled danger at the COF meeting. Toward the end of the questioning about his New Orleans trip, he said, "If the Congress of the U.S. doesn't cut the UN out, if it continues that way for twelve months, there has got to be some violence. You could tell if you had been there and stood around and seen the people, the expression on their faces, heard the way they talked. Those people are people of means, financially, and educationally. They are not there just for an ice cream party. This can't continue on, with the people financing these things, something must happen. I will bet my head on a chopping block there will be some people killed by this time next year and it will be in high places.""

General Edwin Walker was there too.

Lee Harvey Oswald moved to New Orleans on April 24th. I wonder if he was there in time to attend that Convention.

Steve Thomas

Does anyone know when the Congress of Freedom Convention (if you can call it that) took place in New Orleans in April, 1963?

Steve Thomas

Pat,

It just smells a little fishy to me that one of the best friends of a murdered cop was sent out to find evidence on his friends' accused murderer, ...

Richard Stovall and Guy Rose were both Detectives in Captain Will Fritz's Homicide and Robbery Bureau. Guy Rose was one of the first people to speak to Oswald after his arrival at Police Headquarters. I imagine that Stovall was in the office too.

What is interesting to me is originally Will Fritz was going to go out to the Irving address with Richard Sims and Elmer Boyd. Fritz, Sims, Boyd, and Bill Decker all speak of a curious little encounter just after Fritz emerges from the TSBD. They have found the rifle and learned that Oswald lives in Irving. Fritz is all hot to trot. He's determined to go charging off to Irving taking Sims and Boyd with him. Just as he's about to head off, Decker sends word that he wants to talk to Fritz just a minute. What was the subject of that little conversation? None of them are asked by the WC, and none of them volunteer.

Whatever it was, all of a sudden Fritz changes his mind, heads into the office, keeps Sims and Boyd with him, and sends other police officers to check out Irving.

Steve Thomas

Greg,

I have read that the Manlicher Carcano (the alleged Oswald weapon) was not the rifle originally found on the 6th floor of the TSBD on 11/22. If I recall, there are claims that a different rifle (a Mauser) was originally found and purported to be the murder weapon. Has that ever been explained further? Is this claim based on eyewitness statements? Are any photos known to exist that would support his claim?

You might be interested in the article, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza" by John Craig.

You can read it here:

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_...ue/guns_dp.html

Steve Thomas

Ron,

Sorrels was expressly guessing at the time he arrived at DPD from Kodak, and was off by more than an hour:

If there was a Secret Service agent present during Oswald’s first interrogation, there is another reason I do not believe it could have been Forrest Sorrels.

Detective Elmer Boyd testified to the Warren Commission on 4/6/64. He said:

Mr. BALL. And Sims was there, and was there a Secret Service man in there?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see---I think there was a Secret Service man there, but I don't recall---I don't know what his name was.

Detective Richard Sims also testified on 4/6/64

Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.

In an undated after-action jointly filed with Chief Curry by Sims and Boyd, they report that the rifle was found at about 1:25PM and identify persons who were present when it was photographed. They knew enough of the federal agencies involved to make the distinction between the FBI, the Secret Service and officers of the ATF. They wrote, “Detective Studebaker and Lieutenant Day took pictures of the rifle. Mr. Pinkston of the F.B.I. and a Secret Service Agent were there at the time the pictures were being made. We don’t know the Secret Service agent’s name. Mr. Ellsworth and another officer from Alcohol Tax Department were also there.

"Report on Officer's Duty in Regard to the President's Murder, R. M. Sims. No. 629, and E. L. Boyd, No, 840. Dallas Police archives Box 3 Folder # 4, as cited in the City of Dallas Archives – JFK Collection, http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm

However,

Forrest Sorrels testified before the WC on 5/7/64. He said

And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him.

And he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops."

And I said, "Well, I will tell you who I am. My name is Sorrels and I am with the United States Secret Service, and here is my commission book."

So, if Sorrels identified himself on 11/22/63, why were Sims and Boyd writing within days after the assassination that they did not know who the SS agent was that was up on the 6th floor and were telling the WC in April of 1964 that they did not know who the SS agent was that took part in Oswald’s first interrogation?

My comments about Sorrels taking Oswald in a back room alone came from SS Agent Winston Lawson.

By all accounts, Captain Fritz handled the first interrogation, but when Forrest Sorrels arrived to talk to Oswald, he took Oswald in a back room and handled the interrogation himself. Winston Lawson confirmed this and also appears to have confirmed James Hosty’s account of Sorrels, et.al. arriving at 6:00PM.

Mr. LAWSON. “Mr. Sorrels and a couple other agents and myself saw Lee Harvey Oswald when he was brought in for Mr. Sorrels to talk to at Mr. Sorrels' request.”

Mr. STERN. “Did you interrogate him”?

Mr. LAWSON. “No, sir; I did not.”

Mr. STERN. “Did Mr. Sorrels handle the interrogation alone?”

Mr. LAWSON. “Yes, sir; that particular one.”

Mr. LAWSON. “Mr. Sorrels in asking the questions already had some background on Mr. Oswald before he started questioning Mr. Oswald. The detectives or other individuals had told them what they knew up to this point about Oswald, his name, that he had been out of the country previous to this time to Russia, and a few other things. It was known at the particular time, perhaps 6 or 7 o'clock.

Steve Thomas

Ron,

Willis had to be mistaken because Sorrels wasn't there when the film was ready to view at Kodak. Sorrels had left for DPD.

Do you know where I can find Willis's statement about watching the Z film?

Both Marilyn and Phillip told Harold Weisberg that Sorrels watched the Zapruder film before he left.

Both Phillip and Marilyn Willis confirmed to Harold Weisberg that before Sorrels left, all the films had been processed, “and all viewed them.”

Weisberg, Harold. Whitewash II: The FBI – Secret Service Coverup. Harold Weisberg, 1966. p. 203.

Sorrels said that he left before the film was processed and told Zapruder he would get back to him.

From Sorrels' WC testimony:

We got a police car, and went right on out to the Eastman Kodak Co., and while there I met another gentleman who had seen some still pictures, and arranged with him for us to get copies of those.

Mr. STERN - What was his name---do you recall?

Mr. SORRELS - He is a salesman for the Ford Co. on West Commerce Street--Mr. Willis.

Hosty said in his WC testimony:

Mr. HOSTY. Yes, sir; at approximately 6 p.m. on the 22d of November 1963, Special Agent in Charge Forrest V. Sorrels of the United States Secret Service entered Captain Fritz' office with about five or six Secret Service agents. He then proceeded to interview Lee Harvey Oswald, I was not present during this interview.

I did see him take Lee Oswald to the rear of Captain Fritz' outer office and interview Lee Oswald. It appeared to me that Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service had appeared for the purpose of representing the United States Secret Service in this investigation.

Why did Sorrels want to talk to Oswald alone and out of earshot?

Where was he between the hours of, oh say, 3:00 or so and 6:00?

Why did he tell the WC that he got back to police headquarters at 2:00, when he didn't go up to Fritz's office until 6:00?

Questions, questions...

Steve Thomas

Ron,

About 4:00 p.m. on November 23, 1963, Detective M.G. Hall of Homicide and Robbery Bureau called me and stated that Lee Harvey Oswald had requested permission to use the telephone and told me it would be o.k. I called J.L. Popplewell who was on duty on the fifth floor and told him to put Oswald on the phone. Popplewell called back within twenty or thirty minutes and said that Oswald had not been able to complete his call. He said Oswald told him that his party would not be in until later in the evening. I relayed this information to Detective Hall, who asked that Oswald be allowed to use the phone again at that time. I went to the fifth floor about 8:00 o’clock and told Popplewell to let Oswald use the phone again if he wanted to use it.

Is it possible that the later call in the evening was to Ruth Paine?

She told the WC that Oswald called her twice about 4:00 in the afternoon on the 23rd and then a third time - she said was around 9:30. PM.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/paine_r2.htm

In his first call around 4:00 PM, she said that Oswald asked her to call John Abt after 6:00 PM

Mrs. PAINE - I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m.

What is puzzling here, is how did LHO know that John Abt would not be available until after 6:00 PM?

Mrs. PAINE - In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.

Mr. JENNER - A third time?

Mrs. PAINE - I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. JENNER - Fix the time, please.

Mrs. PAINE - It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Maybe Oswald was calling to see if she had been able to reach Abt.

Mrs. PAINE - In the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. PAINE - I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Mr. JENNER - Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. PAINE - I do not specifically recall.

Mr. JENNER - Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. PAINE - I don't want to get in, to rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Steve Thomas

Tosh et.al.,

Ruby's card when found recently was released at a press conference. However, another copy of prints was not. It is not my place to go into how I know these things and perhaps I have already gone to far and this could become a problem between me and others who ask me not to reveal my sources.

An ex-Dallas policeman told me that, "I read the story (Below) in the newspaper. I just got back from the Police Academy where I was teaching a Class for Detectives and Jess Lucio was in the class and he says they firmly believe that Rusty Livingston, a Crimes Scene Search Detective in 1963 took the card on November 24 and it ended up with his nephew, a former classmate of the moron they arrested on the Drug Search Warrant."

Here is a link to the WFAA Channel 8 News Report.

http://www.wfaa.com/perl/common/video/wmPl...evidence_am.wmv

The reporter, Jennifer Lopez, says that the items were stolen from the police lab.

Steve Thomas

Nic,

The relationships between the Paines & the Oswalds, currently. It's fascinating that Marina was told by the Secret Service not to talk to Ruth Paine because she was sympathizing with the CIA ( according to her testimony to Jim Garrison ).

I have just been reading the Warren Commission testimony of some of the White Russian community.

According to Natalie Ray, Marina supposedly told the people at one of the parties they went to that the Oswald's lived in Moscow for a year.

She was adamant about that.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/ray_n.htm

I had never heard that before.

Steve Thomas

Ron,

And this party was in Dallas, as it had the same telephone exchange (CH-7) as TSBD employee L.R. Viles (CH-7-3854), who according to a list of TSBD employees on 11/22 (page 389 in LaFontaine) lived at 3210 St. Croix.

I did a mapaquest on this address, it's north of Dallas up towards the Highland Park

I looked up George Bouhe's address and it's in about the same place.

I wonder if this area was the location of the White Russian community in Dallas.

Steve Thomas

Tosh,

It is not my place to go into how I know these things and perhaps I have already gone to far and this could become a problem between me and others who ask me not to reveal my sources. In time, I was told, this information will be released to the media.

That's ok. I won't press you.

Steve Thomas

Ron,

Also listed as CD 1444c is “Telephone sheets on prisoner’s telephone calls for November 22, 23, and 24, 1963.” Where is this document?

I think I saw a telephone log in the LaFontaine's book, Oswald Talked

What follows does not answer your question, but there was a pice of paper in Oswald's pocket when he died with some phone numbers on it.

I, Vincent E. Drain, Special Agent of F.B.I delivered the following above mentioned articles to Captain G.M. Dought, Dallas Police Dept. this date, February 7, 1964. These articles bear my initials as well as Cap't. Doughty's initials. The above items were received from Captain Doughty by Special Agent Drain on 2-2-64.

Among the items listed, such as a t-shirt, a black sweater and gray shirt was a slip of paper found in Oswald's right front pocket bearing these numbers:

OR-9-9450

RI-8-9711

AC-2-4611

CO-7-3110

CH-7 (the last prefix and number were crossed out)

Dallas Police Archives Box 9, Folder#4, Item#10.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box9.htm

Don Roberdeau later told me that:

"The four numbers on the list and their corresponding owners (CE2073):

- RI 8-9711, Dallas jail

- CO 7-3110, John Abt, attorney, business number at the offices of David Freedman and Abraham Unger, 320 Broadway, NY, NY.

- AC 2-4611, John Abt, residence, 444 Central Park West, NY, NY.

- OR 9-9450, The Daily Worker, 23 West 26th St., NY, NY."

Mark Bridger told me that:

"The last one, Lloyd Viles, a fellow employee had the phone number - CH-7-3854. You'd have to find out what prefixes corresponded to what local exchange. I've an idea they were abreviations for longer words weren't they? So CH might be short for CHESTNUT or CHELSEA, for example. I believe in WC testimony quite a few witness phone numbers were at the top of testimonies, especially those given to the FBI and County Sheriffs. Hope this helps? Mark."

I never did learn the identity of that last number CH - 7

Steve Thomas

What interests you the most about this case?

The ballistics? the autopsy? the witness statements?

I enjoy taking an event or a question and seeing what everyone involved had to say about it. For instance, How did the police FIRST learn that Lee Harvey Oswald lived at 1026 N. Beckley? Please see the online seminars for my take on the question.

Another one is... Was there a Secret Service Agent present during Oswald's first interrogation, which began at 2:20 PM?

Police Chief Jesse Curry, Deputy Chief M.W. Stevenson, Homicide and Robbery Captain Will Fritz, and Detectives Richard Sims and Elmer Boyd said there was.

But who could that Secret Service Agent have been? Forrest Sorrels is the only Secret Service Agent known to have returned to Dealey Plaza in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. Sorrels said that he got back to DPD Headquarters "around 2:00 PM, but Phil Willis said that he saw Forrest Sorrels at the Kodak Lab near Love Field when he got there as Air Force One was leaving Dallas. From Secret Service accounts, we know that took place at 2:47 PM. After Air Force One left and while the Willis's were waiting for their pictures to get developed Sorrels and Zapruder arrived. Willis said he watched the Zapruder film with Sorrels.

And FBI SA James Hosty said that Sorrels didn't arrive at police headquarters until 6:00 PM. So who was this SS Agent present at Oswald's questioning. SS Agent James Patterson said that he waited at Love Field until Air Force One left and then he returned to the office. But he was the person to whom Mary Moorman and Jean Hill gave their pictures to and that was at the Sheriff's office - not the Dallas Police Headquarters.

Steve Thomas

Interrogation, by J. W. Fritz. Draft of the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald. Dallas Police Archives, Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm

Testimony of M.W. Stevenson. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume XII, p. 94, as cited in the History Matters Archive,

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0051a.htm

Testimony of Chief Jesse E. Curry. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume XII, p. 30, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol12_0020b.htm

Testimony of Elmer L. Boyd. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VII, p. 123, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol7_0066a.htm

Testimony of Richard M. Sims. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VII, p. 165, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol7_0087a.htm

Testimony of Forrest Sorrels. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume VII, p. 352, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol7_0180b.htm

Ibid. p. 353

Testimony of James Patrick Hosty, Jr. Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, volume IV, p. 470, as cited in the History Matters Archive, http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol4_0239b.htm

Tosh,

More important than the map is the fingerprint copies that were found other than Ruby's. These fingerprint copies have been compared to the box 26 FBI copies that were sent to the FBI by Dallas P.D shortly after the assassination. The FBI copies of the fingerprints are different than the ones found in the basement. The FBI copies are different and appears to have been tampered with AFTER they were in the FBI's Lab. (1964)

(I posted on this forum a few weeks ago about this Dallas PD and the new found prints but nobody picked up on it)

The pictures (PHOTO COPIES) of the prints found in the raid is a NON broken chain of evidence FROM THE FIRST OF 1964. Guess who the 38 point comparison prints fit?.

A woman named Marthat posted this on the alt.assassination.jfk newsgroup on December 17, 2004:

> I just saw a news announcement about this - the card that was held up

> (that Ruby's fingerprint was supposedly on) was Oswald's FPCC card. Now

> don't everybody pounce at once - I am just telling you what I saw and

> heard. It is not MY story.

>

On the 18th, she posted this:

Sorry all.

I am not sure if I was wrong and the TV blip was right OR if I was right

and the TV . . . well, you know. Anyhow - straight from the horse's mouth

- it was Ruby's fingerprint card that was in the stuff recovered. FPCC

card had nothing to do Ruby.

Neigh/Whinny

Martha

Steve Thomas