Steve Thomas

Robert,

This seems to have been so much bureaucratic bookkeeping and paper-pushing.

Thank you. I was struck by the coincidence that this was coming right around the time of the Bay of Pigs.

Hectic times.

Steve Thomas

John Quigley was an FBI Agent in new Orleans. He interviewed LHO on August 10, 1963 in the NO jail.

During his WC testimony, Quigley was asked:

Mr. STERN. Have you found subsequent to this interview, Mr. Quigley, that you had any other contact with the case of Lee Harvey Oswald before this interview?

Mr. QUIGLEY. Yes; I discovered at the time I checked our files that on April 18, 1961, I had; as a result of a request of the Dallas office, chocked the office of naval intelligence records at the U.S. Naval Station at Algiers. My purpose in checking that was merely to record what information their flies contained.

Mr. STERN. And then you would send a report to that effect to the Dallas office?

Mr. QUIGLEY. I sent a letter I believe in that particular case.

In 1961, LHO was in Russia. Does anyone know anything about this request from Dallas, and what Quigley's letter contained?

Steve Thomas

Stephen,

Revilo Oliver wrote quite probably the first "conspiracy" article about the assassination in December 1963,

Have you ever heard this guy speak?

You can go to his web site and listen to some of his speeches.

Quite the rabble rouser.

Steve Thomas

Would anyone have a picture of Dallas FBI agent, C. Ray Hall?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

Stephen,

I came across this report on a Dallas newspaper archive site.

Two questions come to mind. 1, Why are the criminal intel section of the DPD still this interested in the Payne's, nearly four years after the assassination. 2, Just who was/is Gene Cowden Walker. interesting last name..

It wasn't just the Paine's. From what I've been able to gather, even though the Dallas PD publicly claimed that they had solved the case, they continued to keep tabs on the principals involved for many years to come.

If you look in Box 18, Folder# 1, Item# 30 of the DPD archives

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box18.htm

there is also a 1967 report on George DeMohrenschildt and a 1962 Ford convertible parked in HIS driveway.

The Garrison investigation apparently had them rattled - there is a flurry of newspaper articles and reports filed in the 1967 and 1968 time frame. Look in Box 14 of the DPD archives

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

BTW, what Dallas newspaper archive site were you looking at?

Steve Thomas

John,

Barrett seems to be quite certain of his recollection that the lights were not 'up' in the way that McDonald indicates and that he cannot account for why McDonald would say they were.

From the WC testimony of Hawkins:

Mr. HAWKINS. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage.

Mr. HAWKINS. I had my Service .38 revolver.

Mr. BALL. Did you have it out or was it in your holster?

Mr. HAWKINS. I believe I had it out.

T. A. Hutson:

Mr. HUTSON. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre, but it was dark.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HUTSON. Visibility was poor.

C.T. Walker:

Mr. WALKER. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the back of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have your gun drawn?

Mr. WALKER. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you do that?

Mr. WALKER. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the holster. (This is another person - not Oswald).

He wasn't asked about the lights.

Sounds like a pretty scary scenario to me - police with gunds drawn and a darkened theater. A lot could have gone wrong

Steve Thomas

David,

As you can see, ANGEL could only remember the first name of one man and only the last name of

another. LAUREANO BATISTA, however, is still trying to locate a complete camp roster for us.

If you ever see I camp roster, would you let me know?

I've been interested in the MDC and this camp for a while.

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

Ron,

Moreover, Postal said the officers identified Oswald by name, which indicates that at least some of them knew exactly who they were arresting.

Why was McDonald the Lone Ranger in this?

I was jsut reading throught the Senate Select Committee interview of FBI Agent Bob Barrett. He was recounting information on his FD-302 Report written on November 22, 1963.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...14&relPageId=20

From the 1975 interview:

"Mr. Wallach stated that in my FD-302 I had stated that I heard Officer M.N. McDonald making a statement from the inside of the darkened portion of the theater, "Here he is, and then observed Officer McDonald lunge towards an individual later identified as Lee Harvey Oswald and that these two individuals started to scuffle."

Steve Thomas

I started to read through the HSCA testimony of James Wilcott on the History Matters website, and ran across this line on page 1:

"Approximately April-June, 1963, Cryptonym for Oswald Project approx. RX-ZIM. Standard two consonants followed by 2, 3, 6 letter pronouncable word."

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsc...lcott_0003a.htm

Has anyone ever heard of RX-ZIM? I did a search in the NARA database and came up empty.

April - June would have been the time when LHO was in New Orleans

Steve Thomas

Tim,

As soon as time permits I shall complete a list of contents box by box and post it here. I will also send it to the Foundation to see if they can post it (better yet get the contents in the index).

Is the Mary Ferrell website down for you as well as of Friday 12/30?

Steve Thomas

In 1975, Elizabeth Cole told the FBI that in the first week of November, 1963 she attended a Foreign Students Convention in New Jersey.

While there, she overheard a telephone conversation between a Cuban student and an unknown third party. In the phone conversation, the Cuban student related that JFK was going to be assassinated. The date of the assassination, the City of Dallas and a book company were also mentioned.

Cole said that she called the FBI when she returned to NYC, but never heard back from them.

You can read the details here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...32&relPageId=54

It is alleged that the name of the Cuban student overheard by Miss Cole has the same last name as that of a Cuban picked up and released in Dallas on 11/22/63.

See here:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...2&relPageId=112

Steve Thomas

John,

Steve, I wonder if you (or anyone can rattle off an account re the time line of Police arrivals and surrounding waiting entering etc with a view to among other things answer the question of 'when did the lights come on'?.

Here's some of the timelines based on the DPD dispatch tapes:

1:45 Dispatch reported a "suspect: just went into the Texas Theater on West Jefferson

1:46 85 reported "at the Theater"

1:46 492 reported "out at the Theater"

1:48 211 reported "There's about five squads back "here" with me now" (I'm assuming he was talking about the Theater

1:48 29 reported being two blocks away

1:49 19 reported in and said "15 and some squads are going to the Theater"

1:52 550/2 reported that the suspect was apprehended and enroute to the station

1:53 Dispatch told 91 to report "back" to the Theater and get 223's car and lock it up

85 is Patrolman R.W. Walker

492 was Detectives Carroll and Lyons

211 unknown

29 is Patrolman J.M. Williams

15 is Captian C.E. Talbert

550/2 is Sgt. Gerald Hill

91 is W.D. Mentzel and J.W. Courson

223 is Patrolamn C.T.Walker

You can go to Box 2. Folder# 7 and read the after action reports of some of these officers. You can also get some of their WC testimony. The question of whether the lights were on, off, or dimmed is kind of confusing.

Steve Thomas

Ron,

when the lights go on and the suspect, who is logically considered to be armed and dangerous, is spotted, as the writer I would have the cops and deputies aim about 100 guns of all description at the suspect and have the officer in charge yell “FREEZE! GET YOUR HANDS UP!”

I am in the minority, but I personally believe that McDonald made a serious error in judgement. When he saw the gun in Oswald's waistband, he should have yelled out, "Gun" and stepped back. Instead, (if we can believe the accounts of what happened) he made a grab for it. This could have had fatal consequences.

Steve Thomas

Ray,

In case anyone missed it, Attached below is Steve Thomas's piece on this subject which first appeared on Lancer. I would like to thank Mr. Thomas for his many excwellent posts on this and other forums, and especially for setting the record straight on the snap that never was.

Thank you.

Steve

Duke,

I don't doubt for a moment that a "snap" of a gun was heard, and a firing pin hit the primer of a .38 shell. In fact, McDonald went back to DPD HQ and says he later identified and put his mark on that shell and the gun that he never actually saw. By the time the WC had gotten the shells, however, the "scar" on the primer had "healed" and was no longer discernable, nor were McD's initials.

This amounted to "attempted murder," and I'm surprised that more care wasn't given to preserve the evidence of this since it only made him look that much more guilty of everything. For the firing pin mark not to have been there raises doubts as to DPD's veracity in suggesting that he did try to shoot McD: it's not that he tried to but failed, it's that he apparently didn't even try!

What surprises me even more is that he or Nick McDonald walked out of that theater alive.

Here's a 2003 piece I wrote in the Lancer Forum called, "The Snap That Never Was."

I have always taken it on faith that during his arrest at the Texas Theater, Lee Harvey Oswald took out his gun and attempted to shoot arresting Officer M.N. McDonald. This is based on accounts of an audible "snap" that was heard. Later, we read accounts that the only reason Oswald's attempted murder of McDonald didn't succeed because of a bent primer or a "misfire"

I would like to contend that perhaps the "snap" that was heard was either the sound of something else, or was accidently caused by the officers seeing the gun and immediately reacting to take it away from Oswald and that Oswald did not attempt to shoot Officer McDonald.

I say this for the following three reasons:

1)

Here are the accounts of the arresting officers filed with Police Chief Curry on Decembers 2 - 5, 1963.

They can be found in the DAllas Police Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm

E.L. Cunningham: "When I reached the seating area on the main floor, several officers were in the process of disarming and handcuffing the suspect. ...I did not see anything that indicated that any more force was used than was absolutely necessary to effect the arrest".

Paul Bentley: "Just as I entered the lower floor, I saw Patrolman McDonald fighting with this suspect. I saw this suspect pull a pistol from his shirt, so I went to Patrolman McDonald's aid immediately"

Bob Carroll: "When I arrived at the lower floor, Lee Harvey Oswald was resisting vigorously"...At this time I observed a pistol with the muzzle pointed in my direction. I grabbed the pistol and stuck it in my belt..."

Ray Hawkins: "The subject stood up and as Officer McDonald started to search him, he struck Officer McDonald in the face. The subject and Offcier McDonald began to fight and both fell down in the seats. Officer Walker and I ran toward the subject and grabbed him by his left arm. The subject had reached in his belt for a gun and Officer McDoanld was holding his right hand with the gun in it".

T.A. Hutson: "As I entered the row of seats behind the suspect he jumped up and hit Officer McDonald in the face with his fist, Officer McDonald was in the seat next to the one in which the suspect was originally sitting, and the suspect was up out of his seat struggling with Officer McDonald. I reached over the back of the seats and placed my right arm around the suspect's neck and pulled him up on back of the seat. Officer C.T. WAlker came up and was struggling with the suspect's left hand, and as Officer McDonald struggled with with the suspect's right hand, he moved it to his waist and drew a pistol and as Officer McDonald tried to disarm the suspect, I heard the pistol snap".

K.E. Lyon: "Enroute to the City Hall, Oswald refused to answer all questions. and he kept repeating, "Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested"?

M.N. McDonald: "When I got within a foot of him, I told the suspect to get to his feet. He stood up immediately, bringing his hands up about shoulder high and saying, "Well it's over now". I was reaching for his waist and he struck me on the nose with his left hand. With his right hand, he reached for his waist and both our hands were on a pistol that was stuck in his belt under his shirt. We both fell into the seats struggling for the pistol. ... I managed to get my right hadn on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip I heard the snap of the hammer and the pistol crossed over my left cheek, causing a four inch scratch".

As you can see from reading these reports, at no time in the first 10 to 12 days following the assassination, did any of the arresting officers on the scene claim that Oswald tried to shoot M.N. McDonald. If the pistol did go off and cause a "snap" of the hammer falling into place, it was because McDonald jerked it out of Oswald's pants.

2)

When questioned by Captain Fritz on the afternoon of November 22nd, Fritz did not accuse Oswald of trying to shoot Officer McDonald.

Fritz (4H214)

Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say.

Mr. FRITZ. He denied it---that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong."

3)

If Oswald had attempted to shoot Officer McDonald, why were no charges of attempted murder filed as they were in the case of Governor Connally?

I believe that the account of Oswald trying to shoot McDonald was invented after the fact.

Steve Thomas

On page 3 of a September 23, 1975 memo from Dan Dwyer and Ed Greissing of the Senate Select Committee to Paul Wallach, there is this paragraph:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...2&relPageId=100

II. It has been determined by the military task force, as a result of the NSA - watch list case study, that Oswald, Jack Ruby and Earl C. Ruby, Jack's brother, were targeted. An NSA spokesman reported that Oswald's name "appeared" in the rhyming dictionary on the day of the President's assassination. The following lines of inquiry should be considered:

A. The dates of which Oswald and the Ruby brothers names were placed on the list.

B. The amount of product.

C. The information contained in the product.

D. A determination if the product was forwarded to the FBI and CIA and how these agencies might have used the product in the investigation of the President's assassination.

I haven't found yet if the SSC got those answers.

Steve Thomas

Stephen,

I've heard that one, but it's not fresh in my memory. I probably saw the same document. But I have spoken with someone who was there, but he insists that it was just an MDC project, 20 Cubans, no NorteAmericanos. Jury is still out for me.

Thank you. It was actually the MDC camp I had in mind. Ruby went to New Orleans in June of '63?

I can't remember who Ruby was talking to after he was arrested when he said, 'Theyre going to find out about New Orleans, they're going to find out about the guns, they're going to find out about everything." When asked if their was anyone who could hurt him, Ruby replied, "Davis."

I've been wondering if he could have been referring to Richard Rudolph Davis.

Steve Thomas

Stephen,

But I base this not on a few books or websites. I base it on obtaining most of the documents of his investigation, and on personal interviews with some of those involved. You must certainly agree that such primary sources are more compelling than most books or websites.

I recently ran across one of those raw FBI files in which the memo said that there had been allegations that Jack Ruby was running drugs through the training camp near Lake Ponchatrain in the summer of 1963. In the same memo I think it was, it was also alleged that Lee Harvey Oswald sometimes used the alias, Tom Kane.

Have you ever heard of these allegations before?

Steve Thomas

Robert,

Anyway, is Shirley Martin still "with us," I am not privy to her age. If she is still around does anyone know how to reach her or in the event of her passing, next of kin?

In 1967, Calvin Trillin wrote an article on the early critics. In his article, he wrote:

"Mrs. Martin, who now lives in Owasso, a small town outside of Tulsa,..." He also wrote:

"she and her husband have adopted an American Indian boy,..."

According to Mary Ferrell's database, her name was, Mrs. Mark E. Martin

You might try looking there.

Steve Thomas

George,

John, the more I look at the clip the more the behaviour of that guy looks suspicious! Do you know if there exists a list of the persons who were in the basement of the DPD that sunday?

In Box 14, Folder# 2, Item# 3 of the DPD Archives, I think you will find the kind of list you are looking for.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm

At one time, there existed a map placing everyone in the basement, but as Paul McCaghren stated in "Partners in Blue" by Carleton Stowers,

"One of my responsibilities," recalls McCaghren..."was to place everyone in the basement of City Hall at the time Ruby shot Oswald."..."I made this highly detailed map of the basement and marked the spot where everyone was standing when the shooting occurred. Then one morning I came into the office and the map was gone. The Warren Commission people had taken it without any explanation."

Steve Thomas

Lee,

I emailed Jim Conner and asked him if his mother ever told him what kind of car the men were in and if she had ever described the men. So far, Mr. Conner hasn't answered me.

Steve Thomas

You want that particular spot, you'd better get there early. I wonder if Steve has an update.

As I emailed you this morning, I did hear back from Jim Conner. He said, "The car was a Ford, 4 door Station Wagon with Texas license.(Cream colored)

She wrote the license number down and gave it to Mr. Truly."

Steve Thomas

Duke,

There were definitely two and possibly three officers named Tippit (or Tippet), including one on the vice squad (Special Services Bureau), which seems like was always one of Ruby's targets to get to know; that one frequented the Carousel and Vegas clubs.

The Tippit you speak of knew Jack in his Silver Spur days. I don't believe he was ever in the Carousel.

Steve Thomas

Gerry,

Pat:

We had flown the SAR in Charlie Bush's C-47 "Goony Bird" (Douglas DC-3 Mil/version). Davy was co-Pilot with Bush. Our routing took us from Opa-Locka, FL direct to the lawful P.O.E [Merida, Mexico]. RON'd there and flew to the island of Cozumel. 20 minutes after our landing at Cozumel, Ambassador Thomas Mann landed in the AM/Embassy-Mex-D.F. U.S.N. R4D-2 [uS Navy version of the C-47]. We flew on to Belize City, British Honduras the next day. RON'd there and then flew to Purto Barrios, Guatemala - where we were detained and flown to Guatemala City on a F.A.G. C-47. [more on that in the near term]

Amb. Mann was accompanied by CIA/COS Win Scott, 2 WH-4 JM/WAVE -DDP Officers, and 4 Marine embassy guards "M.S.G.s" [who also were CIA assets], one of whom had spent 2 weeks with me in Havana after LHO's visit there during April 1959.

If you see this, could you expand on LHO's visit to Cuba in April, 1959?

Thanks,

Steve Thomas

John,

According to the author Permindex was comprised of:

(3) Free Cuba Committee headed by Carlos Prio Socarras.

Do you have any outside corroboration that Socarras was involved in the Free Cuba Committee?

Steve Thomas

Dave,

I think it is likely that Marina and/or the children did receive survivor death benefits after Lee's death,

maybe someone can ask her.

Btw. I could also not find any data for JFK there.

I initially attributed the two SS numbers to Oswald's dyslexia, but I also know that there is some controversy with Oswald's tax returns being witheld, and the possibility that they might include unreported income.

I wondered if people researching this angle should also be looking for LHO's tax returns under different SS numbers.

Steve Thomas