Ian Lloyd
-
Posts
307 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Ian Lloyd
-
-
Nice work Gil.
It seems to me that there are 2 people who can very closely pinpoint the time – Helen Markham (HM) and T. F. Bowley (TFB)…
HM had a routine whereby she would leave her home around 1:00 to make the short walk of “…6 or 7 minutes…” to the bus-stop to catch her bus. She said the bus time was 1:15. We know the bus time was actually 1:12. Taking into account that, if the bus were to arrive early, it should stop and wait until the allotted time to leave to ensure that any people catching that particular bus would do so as long as they were at the stop at 1:12. But let’s say the 1:12 would normally arrive sometime between 1:12-1:15, hence HM referring to the bus time as 1:15 – also, 1:15 is closer to 1:12 than it is to 1:22; if she usually caught the 1:22, I would probably expect her to say the bus time was 1:25. Therefore, I suspect that she arrived at the bus-stop sometime between 1:07-1:09 in plenty of time to catch the 1:12 bus.
TFB worked as an “Installation Manager” for Western Electricity – sounds like he’s a pretty professional guy and it’s possibly the kind of job that required good timekeeping. He certainly seemed to be precise about times – he states he collected his daughter from school at 12:55 – not “around or approximately or a few minutes before/after 1:00” and, when he arrived at the Tippit scene and checked his watch, it read 1:10 – again, not “around or approximately or a few minutes before/after 1:00”. Also, his precision about the time makes me believe that he was a person who liked, maybe demanded, punctuality both in himself and others, in which case I would expect that he probably regularly checked his watch to ensure it was reading the correct time.
Do we know what type of clock was used in the DPD dispatcher’s office? Analogue or digital?
-
I suppose the hospital clock and/or doctor's watch could have been wrong by "...5 or 6 minutes..."
😁
-
9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
An ambulance picked up Tippit and took him to Methodist Hospital, where doctors tried to resuscitate him but failed. He was pronounced DOA at 1:15 PM.
On the following DPD form, the time of death was apparently estimated to be 1:00 PM at first, and then corrected later.
We seem to have 2 separate documents that state the time of declaration of death as 1:15.
Time of declaration of death is different to time of murder.
-
7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:
1:15 pm
Precisely my point...
-
Callaway says he heard shots "around 1pm".
Markham says she thinks the shooting occured around 1:06-1:07 based on a routine of hers to catch a bus.
Bowley says he was at the scene at 1:10 (after the shooting) after checking his watch.
BUT:
Callaway might have heard the shots anytime between 1:00 & 1:30.
Markham's clock may have been out by 5 or 6 minutes.
Bowley's watch may have been out by 5 or 6 minutes.
Hmmm...
Also, what was the (original) recorded time for DOA?
-
9 hours ago, Bill Brown said:
Bowley's watch couldn't have been off by 5 or 6 minutes?
I guess it comes down to whether or not you allow your bias to cause you to dismiss the detailed actions of Callaway and Benavides and the time stamps on the police tapes in favor of Bowley's 1963 era windup wristwatch.
Bowley's watch could have been off by 5 or 6 minutes, then again, it may not have been...He seemed quite relaint on it so I would expect him to ensure it was reading the correct time.
Trying to make things fit a narrative?
-
9 hours ago, Bill Brown said:
Nonsense.
The Dallas Transit System told the FBI that a bus was scheduled to stop there at 1:12, 1:22 and about every ten minutes thereafter; nothing about Markham catching a 1:12 bus.
Stop making things up to fit your narrative.
Makes sense to me that she left her home at "...around 1:00..." to catch the 1:12 bus - I can't imagine she would leave at 1:00 to catch a 1:22 bus when it was only a block or so i.e. a few minutes' walk for her. Also, I can't imagine that the bus would arrive at the stop at precisely 1:12 every time, if anything probably late rather than early (if early, it should wait until the alloted time to leave), so she thinks of it as a 1:15 bus...Even if she gets there a little later, it's only around 10 minutes extra wait for the 1:22, so she gives herself a safety net. Again, if so, this would convince me that she normally caught the 1:12 bus. It seems that she caught this bus regularly and has her timings quite precise in her WC testimony.
-
2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:
I found some documents that indicate that the bus transfer and unfired .38 rounds allegedly found on Oswald during a search by Detectives Richard Sims and Elmer Boyd may not have been found on him at all.
The first is an FBI teletype dated 2-3-64 that says that Oswald was "completely searched" by Detective Paul Bentley and "nothing was left in his pockets". It also contains verification of that by Capt. Fritz, who told the FBI that Oswald was "completely searched following his arrest."
The second document is from the HSCA interview with patrolman C.T. Walker. He told the HSCA that he searched Oswald when Oswald was brought in to Capt. Fritz's office. He told the HSCA interviewer that "I searched him good and found nothing".
Both of these searches of Oswald took place BEFORE he was transferred by Sims and Boyd to the first lineup.
A third document, a report by Patrolman M.G. Hall, says that Hall assisted Sims and Boyd in that transfer, but makes no mention of any search of Oswald, nor does it mention them finding any bus transfer or unfired rounds.
So we have documents indicating that Oswald was searched TWICE before the transfer by Sims and Boyd. The first search resulted in his pockets being completely emptied. The second search verified that fact. This leads me to believe that the bus transfer and the unfired rounds allegedly found on Oswald were never found on him.
Could the first document be read differently in that, following the search of LHO's trousers, anything that was found was removed, leaving the pockets empty (though the piece of paper mentioned in the first paragraph was missed)?
-
Still wondering why we have to believe that the Carcano had to have been disassembled to get it into the TSBD...there may be other ways an assembled Carcano could have been taken into the TSBD (one example by Greg)...? Perhaps this assumption needs more exploration.
-
1:59 and 2:22 of this clip...
-
Certainly does Chris - nice work again!!!
I wonder if any film of the search shows any cops with guns of any sort? Plenty outside carrying shotguns...I'd be surprised if the cops were going in for a search for an alleged armed shooter but were told to leave their weapons outside in case they contaminated the search area???
-
Notwithstanding the YouTube comment, I thought this had been previously addressed and explained as being a cop's shotgun? Maybe a clearer image will help...
-
8 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:
Tom Gram, "Rethinking Oswald's Mail: P.O. Box 2915 and the Missing Change of Address Orders".
https://gregrparker.com/rethinking-oswalds-mail/
This was announced by Greg Parker on the ROKC (Reopen Kennedy Case) site on Dec 7, 2022, introduced as: "Congrats to Tom G. This . . . count[s] among the finest examples of investigative journalism to be found on the case. Warning: it is 50 pages of tightly packed dynamite."
Having read it, it is a stunner. Meticulously researched, going in a different direction than has previously been developed. Author argues on the basis of analysis of documents that PO Box 2915 may have been rented in Marina's name; that the "A. Hidell" alias was originally used by Marina; and that Marina played a greater role in the paperwork of the order of the rifle from Klein's than previously considered.
-
I did read it - the hypothesis still relies on the rifle being broken down but, if I am reading it correctly, also requires 2 bags and additional people separately bringing different parts of the rifle?
-
9 minutes ago, Claude Barnabe said:
Hello Ian,
By 'conditioned', you must be referring to the WC version of how the rifle was introduced into the TSBD.
Yes.
That's a fair statement.
The WC concluded logically, since a 38” paper sack was found at the scene of the crime and a fully assembled carcano is over 40” in length then the rifle must have been disassembled.
(Assuming that oswald took the rifle into the TSBD)...I wouldn't call it logical - What seems illogical to me is that, for the sake of ~2" of barrel protruding from the top of the sack, that he felt it necessary to dismantle the rifle knowing that he would have to re-assemble the rifle in the TSBD without being seen, rather than just get some kind of paper e.g. a grocery bag, to cover it. He would also have all the various parts and screws etc. rattling around inside the bag (unless we say there was another, smaller bag inside the sack to contain these small parts?).
That's a reasonable deduction by the WC.
Really?
Ian, you introduce the possibility that an additional smaller sack was placed over the end of the larger sack to conceal the weapon.
I just introduce an option/example for covering the protruding 2" of the barrel.
I made the argument that BWF was accurate in his assessment of the length of the sack. Two feet. That dimension is backed by BWF sister Linnie Randle and also by Ms Whitworth of the Furniture Mart. She estimated the sack to be 15” to 18”. A discrepancy from the 2' but notable in the difference from WC length of over 3'. The BWF sack dimensions dictate that the rifle be disassembled and also that only the receiver/barrel can be placed in the sack.
So, are you suggesting that another bag/sack or some other receptacle was used to transport the stock separately?
Therefore LHO must have brought into the TSBD the receiver/barrel.
He must have?
That conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no curtain rods were found in the TSBD.
But neither of BWF nor LMR said (or saw) that the bag contained the rifle either.
-
I'm wondering if we've been 'conditioned' over the years to believe that the only way the rifle could have got into the TSBD is by Oswald breaking it down and taking it in the "paper sack"?
The rifle that was supposedly ordered was advertised as being 36" long. The rifle supposedly delivered was 40.2" long; that's a difference of ~4". If that was delivered to Oswald, would he (assuming he received the rifle) have noticed the difference in length?
When the paper sack was fabricated, maybe whoever made it thought, or was told, that it needs to be 38" long (to cater for a 36" rifle as the person thought it was 36" long since that is what was ordered, and the 4" difference hadn't been noted) with an additional 2" to allow for folding the end over the fully assembled rifle.
When the rifle was placed in the sack it was then noticed that 2" of the end of the barrel was sticking out of the end. This is a dilemma but is surely easily resolved, but not by deciding the only answer is to dismantle the rifle to make it fit but just place, say, a standard paper grocery bag over the protruding 2" of barrel?
Or...
The rifle was taken into the TSBD fully assembled.
Another thing...If I recall correctly, the rifle was found upside down i.e. resting on the scope? Again, we seem to have been conditioned to believe is that the scope on the rifle was faulty during the assassination (assuming it was used) - but it may have been ok until the rifle was dropped between stacks of boxes in an upside down position i.e. it landed on the scope and that's when the damage occurred?
-
Did Ellsworth take part in the initial search of the TSBD as well?
-
16 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:
Sirleurence Myles
The name Sirleurence Myles, who said he was working at the corner of 9th and Patton on the day Tippit was shot and killed, is so little known in discussions of the Tippit killing that his name does not appear in the index in Dale Myers' With Malice: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Murder of Officer J.D. Tippit (2013 edn of 1998 original). I only first noticed this several days ago. An FBI report of 6/11/64:
"Jesse Lee Davis, Jr., a self-employed plastering contractor (. . .) discussed [a different incident--bogus claimed sighting by Davis] with a friend named Salon Myers, who lives somewhere on Denley Street, Dallas, Texas. Davis stated that Myers informed him he also observed Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963. He stated Myers informed him that he saw Oswald on East 10th Street in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, and stated that Oswald had either driven to that location in a car or had been driven there because, when he (Myers) saw him, he apparently had just left the car. His reason for leaving the car, Myers informed, was because a police cruiser had stopped to question him. Davis said Myers told him that, at this point, Oswald drew a gun, ran toward the police car and shot the police officer while he was still seated in the car. After doing this, Davis stated, Myers advised him Oswald then ran across a vacant lot and disappeared. (. . .) Davis related that he had been advised by many of his associates not to furnish the above information to the Fedeal Bureau of Investigation, since he might get into trouble. He said he had not planned to five the above information to the Federal Bureach of Investigation but, on May 17, 1964, he found a 'San Antonio Express' newspaper in his car. He said the newspaper was dated November 22, 1963, and carried an article concerning the President's visit to San Antonio on November 21, 1963. Davis stated this newspaper was in 'issue' condition and was not dirty or wrinkled. He stated he had no idea who left the paper in the car, but stated his car was unlocked and someone may have spent the night there. After finding this newspaper and after 'praying,' Davis said he decided to furnish this information to the Federal Bureau of Investigation." (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11790#relPageId=151&search=sirleurence)
On 7/4/64 there is an FBI report that Jesse Davis made a correction in the person's information:
"Jesse Lee Davis, Jr., self-employed plastering contractor (. . .) advised that he had previously informed that a Salon Myers resided somewhere on Denley Street, Dallas, Texas. Davis stated he was mistaken and now wants to correct his previous statements in that he has determined that Salon Myers is actually Sirleurence Myles and resides in the last house on the right on Baden Street, which would be on the northwest end of Baden Street, Dallas."
FBI agents tracked down Sirleurence Myles and reported that Myles saw nothing, heard nothing, knew nothing. But he was close to the scene.
"Sirleurence Myles, 1315 Baden Street, Dallas, Texas, advised he was born December 23, 1908, at Dallas, Texas. He said when he can find employment, he works as a bricklayer's helper. Myles advised that on November 22, 1963, he was working on an apartment building at Patton and 9th Streets, Dallas, Texas.
"Myles stated he never knew and, to his knowledge, never had any contact with Lee Harvey Oswald. He stated he never saw Oswald on November 22, 1963, and never informed anyone that he had seen Oswald on that date.
"Myles further stated that he did not witness the shooting of police officer J. D. Tippit by Oswald on November 22, 1963, and stated any information to the contrary is completely without basis in fact.
"Myles stated he had no information that would assist in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy."
Jesse Davis, the source of the story, is presented in the rest of the FBI reporting about him as a bit whackadoo, idiomatically put, with claims of extrasensory perception and his own bogus claimed sighting of a man he thought was Oswald driving into his driveway and inquiring of him, Davis, on Fri morning, Nov. 22, if Davis would like any tree-trimming done. That can be set aside here. The point of interest is the account of the phone call with Sirleurence Myles, and that also would not be of much interest if it did not turn out that Sirleurence Myles was in proximity in the neighborhood at the time of the killing of Tippit.
A work location of Myles at 9th and Patton would not put Myles in line of sight to have been in a position to see the Tippit killing circumstances on 10th. Myles refusing to volunteer to the FBI what that phone call with Jesse Davis was about (if the FBI report is accurate on that) would be consistent with Davis's friends, who may or may not have included Myles himself, advising Davis not to tell the FBI anything for fear of getting into trouble, which could be fear of suspected organized crime interests as easily as law enforcement. Obviously when reading reports of this nature, for "Oswald" substitute "the killer of Tippit". Conclusion: don't know what to make of this one, wish there had been more followup, such as verification that an apartment on 9th and Patton had bricklayers working on it, in addition to known bricklayers working on a building on 10th east of Davis which did involve witnesses to the Tippit killing--and if those two sets of bricklayers knew or talked to each other that day.
Deleted
-
9 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:
If we assume that LHO was a patsy and knew it, then the last place he would go would be to a pre-arranged rendezvous with the people who just made him a patsy. He might well determine that would be a lethal meeting.
My guess is LHO figured out he was the patsy rather quickly, and vamoosed by the means available, and then got his gun. He knew he could not stay at home, or on city streets. A movie theatre, darkened, might the best of bad options.
IMHO, LHO's leaving the TBSD and getting a gun have always signalled either guilt or involvement in the JFKA. If we rule out guilt, that means LHO was the patsy, but figured it out quickly on the basis of a few gunshots and sirens.
To me, that suggests LHO was involved in some event that was supposed to happen, such as a false-flag but unsuccessful JFKA.
But I am re-reading Larry Hancock's Tipping Point for pointers. The connection between LHO and a small assassination team imported into Dallas from Miami, on a very compartmentalized basis, is difficult to ascertain.
Does the fact that he announced to the world that he was a "patsy" also suggest that he was involved in, or had some knowledge of, a plot?
-
Depending where you look, if I recall correctly, the DPD gave one figure and the WC gave another...
-
33 minutes ago, David Andrews said:
Does anyone recall how much cash Oswald had on him when arrested?
13.87?
-
1 hour ago, Chris Davidson said:
Paul, my interjection above in red.
It's also impossible to initially see JFK's head start the "back and to the left" process at z315 in real time.
More coming.
Wouldn't the limo braking sharply cause JFK's head to move forward, not backwards?
-
9 hours ago, Matt Allison said:
A few observations:
Is it really necessary for those that believe in the LN scenario to consistently act like condescending jerks? It accomplishes nothing.
I've never given any thought to the rifle sling, but since it has been brought up, why would a sling be necessary for a shot from a crouching position?
And also, you now have to add the sling to what was inside Oswald's paper bag, no?
Good points Bill - surely, if the sling was still fixed to the "disassembled" rifle, it's only going to make it more awkward to reassemble the thing, what with getting it untangled etc.?
-
Last paragraph on page 353, LHO letter to Robert, is a bit cryptic...
"If you find out any information about me, please let me know, I'd like to be ready on the draw so too [sic] speak"
???
Ted Callaway & The 1:15 Shooting
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Thanks Gil...very interesting read...