Ian Lloyd

Roy,

Good stuff!!!

Can you post the pics you have of JED please? I'm sure a lot of people here would be extremely interested in them since he seems to be such an elusive character.

IIRC, BWF (not WBF) was asked the question at a recent conference he was attending (in the last year or so) and BWF said he couldn't recall who it was that was standing there and that the photograph was too blurry for him to figure it out.

Jack Dougherty is an interesting character too...

Indirect link...read on...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3716997/How-Frank-Sheeran-killed-Jimmy-Hoffa-shockingly-claims-41-years-legendary-union-activist-vanished.html

Jus' wond'rin - an 8mm film? Just how big/small is the negative that a blob would have been painted onto a small section of that portion of the negative?

Tom,

You make some excellent points, and I agree that the most likely time of the shooting was about 1:06. Wouldn't you have to agree, though, that by many accounts the ambulance got to the scene much faster that the twelve minutes that would have expired between 1:06 and 1:18?

Jim,

The time that the ambulance service received the call (time stamped at 1:18) is the only question mark in the 1:06 shooting time. This would give LHO more time to arrive at the murder scene. However, this 'late' time would require convincing the ambulance company and crew to lie about the times, and that would be more than a bit suspicious to them. Would they lie?

The police were present at the hospital when JDT was pronounced. The only explanation of the 1:06 or 1:09 TOD was if they supplied that information. It was later changed to 1:15. DPD could have done the type-over at any time.

Barbara J. Davis called about 1:08 reporting a shooting (not knowing it was a police officer). IIRC T.F.Bowley looked at his watch and noted his arrival time as 1:10. The latest that DPD should have received his "Officer Down" call would be about 1:12. That is a long, long time for DPD to wait to make the ambulance call. Unless of course they wanted to be certain JDT did not survive the shooting...

1 minute to the shooting scene

3 minutes to load JDT

4-5 minute drive to hospital

2 minutes to ER

2 minutes to work on JDT, as they stated they did...

Total time: 12 (very optimistic) minutes

According to Bowley reporting at 1:12, they would not have pronounced JDT until 1:24... I only found this doc which pronounces JDT at 1:25, AFTER calculating the above times:

If they received a 1:18 call they certainly didn't pronounce him at 1:15, and given the 1:10 arrival time of Bowley, 1:15 couldn't be the time JDT was pronounced. IMO, the 1:15 time was the time DPD WANTED the shooting to have occurred, but it actually happened at 1:06.

Does DPD state a time that Barbara Jeannette Davis' call was received?

Tom

When I enlarge this, the '2' in the 1:25 looks like it's been altered...

Chris,

I remember looking into the JFK docs on MF some years ago trying to find information on weapons sounding like firecrackers and actually found something - can't recall whether it was an FBI doc or whatever but it definitely described a handgun of some kind that, when fired, made a sound like a firecracker...may be worth a search?

OK, thanks all regarding the station-wagon (still puzzled by BWF's car being there if, of course, it is his)...

Hi, Tom,

I see Chuck Schwartz has elaborated above on his earlier post about Captain Westbrook, and that may require some study. In the meantime, since I already decided to post this ....

Before arriving or after leaving the TSBD, McWatters' bus route never got even close to 1026 N. Beckley. I don't think the fellow the world knows as "Lee Harvey Oswald" ever got into a Nash Rambler on Elm St. (but someone else who looked a little like him and was legally named "Lee Harvey Oswald" probably did)!

Here are two paragraphs from Mr. Armstrong's write-up that might be of interest to you.

After shots were fired at President Kennedy, LEE Oswald walked through the office of the Book Depository and was seen by Mrs. Reid carrying a coke and wearing a white t-shirt. He then left the building and may have been given a pistol by Jack Ruby, as witnessed by three women from the Dal-Tex Bldg. LEE Oswald then walked west on the Elm Street extension in front of the TSBD and waited. At 12:40 PM a light colored Nash Rambler station wagon, with a chrome luggage rack, pulled over to the curb and stopped. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig heard a shrill whistle, which attracted his attention, and watched as a young man wearing a white t-shirt walked over to the car and got in. Craig identified the man as (LEE) Harvey Oswald. Marvin Robinson was driving his Cadillac directly behind the Nash Rambler when it suddenly stopped. Robinson saw a white male hurry over to the car and get in. Robinson's employee, Roy Cooper, was following him in a different vehicle and also saw the man hurry over and get into the car. Both men told the FBI the man who got into the Nash Rambler was (LEE) Harvey Oswald, but neither man was interviewed by the WC. Helen Forrest saw the same man run toward the Nash Rambler and get in. She said, "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." Helen Forrest was never interviewed by the WC nor was her statement published in the WC volumes. The Nash Rambler was last seen driving under the triple overpass with LEE Oswald, who was wearing a white t-shirt. Before meeting up with Officer Tippit near 10th & Patton, LEE Oswald acquired a pistol and a light colored medium-sized jacket that he wore over his white t-shirt.

....

Victoria Adams, who worked in the TSBD, told the WC that she observed a man standing on the corner of Houston and Elm a few minutes after the assassination who may have been Jack Ruby. Across the street Mrs. Louis Velez, and two co-workers, saw Ruby walking up and down the street near the TSBD. When LEE Oswald came out of the building, they saw Ruby give a pistol to him. The women knew Oswald, who ate with them at a nearby restaurant, and both were acquainted with Jack Ruby. Mrs. Velez told her story of Ruby giving Oswald a pistol to her mother (Mrs. Evelyn Harris), who was interviewed by FBI agent Manning on 11/30/63. Neither Mrs. Velez nor her co-workers were interviewed by the DPD or FBI and given the opportunity to confirm or deny their story. If their story is true, then Ruby was deeply involved in the assassination. Ruby knew and associated with LEE Oswald in the summer of 1963, while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans.

If we assume for a moment that there was only one Oswald at the TSBD that day, I would conclude from reading the above, and from reading the testimony of the bus driver and the teenager on the bus, that it was our Oswald (the one killed by Ruby) who got into the Rambler. And that the person who got into the bus was not Oswald. Correct me if I am wrong, but the testimony pointing to Oswald being on the bus is quite weak. Neither the bus driver nor the teenager got a good look at him.

On the other hand, there were a number of witnesses who saw Oswald entering the Rambler, even some who knew him. Remember also, Oswald's response under interrogation when he said that the station wagon was Ruth Paine's, and not to bring her into this. Why would Oswald have said this had the interrogators not brought up the car he had hopped into?

Now, there is one problem with this analysis. (At least one, anyway.) And that is that Ruth Paine supposedly didn't own a Rambler station wagon, according to an FBI report. In JFK and the Unspeakable, author James Douglass dismisses that FBI report. So apparently he believes that Ruth Paine did indeed own a Rambler station wagon.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this. I know that what I'm saying here contradicts a portion of Armstrong's essay. But I think that challenging it when warranted is the right thing to do. (And I say that as an Armstrong fan.)

In the second photograph within the linked article showing a view of the Paine house, part of a station-wagon can be seen parked on the driveway in front of the garage (behind what appears to be BWF's car?) - can anyone tell what make/model car this is?

Is there a photograph of the B-9738 laundry tag available anywhere?

.

... and the framing of Oswald

Evidence newly compiled by John Armstrong shows that two DPD policemen, Captain W.R. Westbrook and reserve officer Kenneth Croy, were intimately involved in the murder of J.D. Tippit and the framing of "Lee Harvey Oswald" for the assassination of JFK.

This information is contained in a major update to the "November 22, 1963" page at the Harvey and Lee Website, which I just put up a few hours ago.

http://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm

Regarding the 2nd photograph in the article - This is Ruth Paine's home as seen from 5th St. - Is that BWF's car parked in front? If so, why?

No foresight?

There seem to be cops milling around the street outside the TSBD and quite a few people standing around there...not sure if I see Robert West in one of the pics - I wonder if these were taken during one of the assassination reenactments?

Also looks like the scope is strapped on - can the bolt be operated and a cartridge ejected?

Baker Playing Footsies.

The very last step you see Baker taking appears to be showing his leg rising as if he's stepping up onto the sidewalk?

You call them "holes", but do they only look like that now due to some of the material having been cut away for spectographic analysis?

Actually, a further thought on that - was a 'control sample' also removed from the shirt for comparison? If so from where?

Can you point me to the evidence that shows:

The self closer on the second floor stairwell door is a safety device for fire, not noise abatement. The double doors at the end of the hall, like on 3rd floor, were the original fire doors(by the #27) But as you can see smoke and fire could proceed through the spaces via lunchroom to the stairwell.The odd shaped room was added as the interior occupied spaces (lunchroom, Conference, etc) were exposed to the stairwell, so a partition was added to separate them, and be compliant with an self closing door. Now interior had a way to access the lunchroom without having to enter and exit a self closing door, and as you may have noticed in the re-enactment videos, and photos those 2nd floor hallway double doors are always open. as allowed.

Please?

Not that it's really on topic, but what's been bugging me about this is what that foyer/vestibule between the stairway landing and the 2nd floor lunchroom is actually there for...Fire? Noise? I don't really think either of these...looking closely at the photos, there is what appears to be a sprinkler pipe passing through the wall but the hole looks like it's cut quite 'loosely' and not sealed which makes me think the foyer/vestibule is a later addition...

Ian,

Good observation I hadn't noticed that. I'll have to look at the schematic of the second floor again to determine whether that five-sided foyer / vestibule was good for anything other than clandestine meetings and armed confrontations.

Oh, yes, and soundproofing

--Tommy

Fun, isn't it?

So, we've got Baker & Truly heading up the stairs at a high rate of knots, adrenaline pumping, on the lookout for a killer...

I'm guessing their awareness of their surroundings is somewhat heightened and they're on the alert for any movements, noises etc.

They're standing in the foyer/vestibule area questioning a person since MB, in his heightened awareness state spotted movement behind a vision panel in a door but, either they fail to hear 2 ladies running down the stairs or, if they did hear them decided that the noise wasn't worth investigating?

Hmmmm...

Not that it's really on topic, but what's been bugging me about this is what that foyer/vestibule between the stairway landing and the 2nd floor lunchroom is actually there for...Fire? Noise? I don't really think either of these...looking closely at the photos, there is what appears to be a sprinkler pipe passing through the wall but the hole looks like it's cut quite 'loosely' and not sealed which makes me think the foyer/vestibule is a later addition...

From post #92 by T. Graves:

I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, but I hope that it's okay to speculate about all of this.

Ian,

Care to speculate where Baker ran to, if not up the TSBD front steps, about 30 seconds after the assassination? Care to speculate as to why there were no witnesses who said anything about where Baker sprinted to (other than "in front of the TSBD" for a few seconds), and what he did once he got there?

Cowboy Bob needs all the help he can get with these little details.

--Tommy

Tommy,

You know that my reply was in response to your post that you subsequently deleted and replaced with a new post as I was responding to your initial post...(if you can follow that!!)...

Yes, Ian I was hoping you wouldn't notice that.

The Bad Guys pay me a lot of money to do that sort of thing here from time to time.

Nice catch, Old Boy.

--Tommy

Ha!!

I was just having a bit of fun anyway...

From post #92 by T. Graves:

I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, but I hope that it's okay to speculate about all of this.

Ian,

Care to speculate where Baker ran to, if not up the TSBD front steps, about 30 seconds after the assassination? Care to speculate as to why there were no witnesses who said anything about where Baker sprinted to (other than "in front of the TSBD" for a few seconds), and what he did once he got there?

Cowboy Bob needs all the help he can get with these little details.

--Tommy

Tommy,

You know that my reply was in response to your post that you subsequently deleted and replaced with a new post as I was responding to your initial post...(if you can follow that!!)...

From post #92 by T. Graves:

I hope I'm not sounding too cynical, but I hope that it's okay to speculate about all of this.

From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

Who is the person marked as no. 2?

Has the person marked as no. 3 got an extra pair of legs? Or maybe it's just my eyesight fooling me...

Is it daylight? Isn't it the white 'filler' within the the tie that we see through a hole in the outer fabric of the tie?

Good point, Ian. I assumed I could see the background material through a hole, but closer examination shows there to be white fibrous material in that "hole".

Hey Bob, Ian and Ashton,

In an FBI memo, the damage to the tie is described as "a HOLE in the outer layer of the tie that exposes the white inner lining". So there's a HOLE in the outer layer, and a NICK in the tie...

Does everyone agree that the 'stain' is a dried blood clot?

Tom

Agreed.

I wonder why the FBI report describes the damage to the front of the shirt as having been caused by a "fragment"? Where did they get that from? Would seem to shoot down the SBT!!! (Get it?)...

I wonder how that hole or nick or whatever we would like to call it got into the tie. Looks a bit ragged for a scalpel cut, wouldn't you say?

P.S.

Hate to keep pointing things out to you Ashton but, if you can see daylight through something, as is possible with the tie, that pretty much qualifies it as a hole.

Is it daylight? Isn't it the white 'filler' within the the tie that we see through a hole in the outer fabric of the tie?

If those slits lie overtop one another when the shirt was buttoned up, the nurse with the scalpel made that gash through three layers of shirt; a single layer on the button side and a double layer on the button hole side.

It is a little frightening to think this might have been done just to remove a tie. As I said earlier, did no one think of loosening the tie a few inches first?

Robert,

How about a little experiment? As I understand it, you go shooting so own guns? How about getting an old shirt and firing a (reduced velocity) bullet through it in the same position as the slits in JFK's shirt appear and see if you can replicate those slits? Maybe post photos of the results?

I wasn't doubting you.

I know how unreliable Wiki can be and was just highlighting it. I guess Wiki needs editing.