Jim Hargrove

Well, on that date (11/09/59) Russian-speaking "Lee Harvey Oswald" was in Moscow playing the English-speaking fool. On that day or the next, the FBI posted a "Wanted Notice Card" for Oswald and Angleton put Oswald on the watch list for HTLINGUAL mail intercepts. I imagine this was all getting a little too close to the bone for Angleton and the boys.

John’s had this whole thing figured out for the last two decades, I think, but everyone has a hard time believing the Harvey and Lee stuff, and so we don’t make much progress. Anyway, it’s a little bit scattered in his book, but John puts forward the evidence for the likelihood of a direct chain of command going from CIA’s David Atlee Phillips to KLIF radio’s Gordon McClendon to Jack Ruby to LEE Harvey Oswald. In a nutshell, it goes like this…. American-born LEE Harvey Oswald was famously spotted at the Southland Building in Dallas in September 1963 meeting with CIA’s Phillips (Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald was living with Marina in New Orleans at the time). That’s probably when the plan to set up the Russian-speaking kid as the patsy in the JFK hit was presented to LEE. But how did LEE get his day to day orders after that? That’s where Jack Ruby came in. One of Ruby’s best friends was Gordon McLendon, co-founder of KLIF radio in Oak Cliff, and Ruby had many documented interactions between both McLendon and other KLIF staff. For just one example, a delicatessen employee named John Frickstad told the FBI he overheard Ruby on the telephone the night of the assassination saying that he (Ruby) could be reached at KLIF radio. Gordon McLendon, as luck would have it, was a very good friend of Phillips (in the 1970s, for example, the two worked together to form the Association of Former Intelligence Officers). In fact, McLendon and Phillips had known one another since both men were in their teens. This is the bare bones of John’s case, but it shows how likely it is that LEE Oswald’s actions in Dallas framing his Russian-speaking counterpart in the weeks preceding the assassination were controlled by David Atlee Phillips through McLendon and Ruby.

I haven't followed all Mr. Newton's links above, but it is fairly common knowledge that a Lee Harvey Oswald was seen by many witnesses with Jack Ruby in and around Dallas in the summer and fall of 1963. What confuses everyone is that during most of this period the "Lee Harvey Oswald" married to Marina and eventually killed by Jack Ruby was living not in Dallas, but in New Orleans. The man shown at Ruby's Carousel Club in the photo below was American-born LEE Harvey Oswald, the man who eventually framed Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald for the assassination of JFK. From the Jack Ruby page at HarveyandLee.net: *In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other. *Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO. *Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions. *Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions. *Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay. *Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.” *Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied. *During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams. *DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald. NOTE: Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.” At 20, "Little Lynn" (in private life, Karen Carlin) was Jack's youngest stripper. With long locks of artificially colored gray hair, Lynn had the body of swimsuit contestant—but, on stage, wore little other than a big smile, pink heels and a matching G-string. On November 24, 1963, Little Lynn told U.S. Secret Service agent Roger Warner that she, in his words, "was under the impression that Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy and that she would be killed if she gave any information to authorities." Lynn reportedly died of a gunshot wound in Houston in 1964.

OK, Chris.... All I care about is the head of the snake. Everything else can be forgiven. Nothing else matters to me ... and that's the truth!

Isn't it possible that CIA knew of smuggling, which by nature is heavily mob connected, and looked the other way if there were useful profits to be made? AKA like they did almost everywhere else? SE Asia, S. America, Watts. OK, Chris, if you want to keep asserting the Mob was the elephant in the room here, by all means please present your evidence. But I ask you…. Did the Mob protect Jacob Rubinstein and his Cuban arms shipments from U.S. federal prosecution? Did the Mob put "LHO" in front of Shaw's Trade Mart in New Orleans shilling for Castro? Was what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project” a creation of the Mob? Did the Mob pretend that "LHO" did all those things in Mexico City? Did the Mob send this "Lee Oswald" fellow to McKeown's house? Did the Mob put the entire U.S. Government to sleep after JFK’s assassination? C’mon….

The most significant thing here is what the FBI hid from the Warren Commission, and the HSCA hid from everyone: Jack Ruby was heavily involved in Cuban gun-running. The HSCA’s myopic questioning of McKeown, mostly by Purdy, completely side-stepped the issue that Ruby’s involvement with CIA asset Donald Browder centered around the gun trade and arms shipments to Cuba. Does anyone doubt that people sending military-style armaments to Cuba would be monitored by American Intel? Does it seem possible the Jack Ruby’s Cuban gun-running would be unnoticed by the CIA? What had to be hidden at all costs was the clear fact that, at least prior to the assassination, Jack Ruby was under CIA protection, or at least allowed to operate freely under American Intel’s watchful eyes.

Should we really be surprised that a convicted gunrunner currently on parole tried to downplay to law-enforcement a meeting with potential gun buyers??? Sounds entirely normal to me, as is the fact that, contrary to the HSCA’s throwaway line, McKeown was hardly seeking publicity or a book deal. I agree with much of what you say above, but let’s not let quibbling over the details cloud our view of McKeown’s stunning revelation. If it is fundamentally true, and I see no reason whatsoever to believe it isn’t, McKeown’s testimony is among the most important ever made after the WC hearings. The details don’t matter nearly as much as the simple fact that a guy saying his name was “Lee Oswald” tried multiple times to purchase high-powered rifles with scopes eventually for laughably high prices from Castro’s personal friend and arms merchant just weeks before the assassination. Again, given the history of the HSCA’s performance following it’s leadership coup, I’m astounded that they let McKeown speak with immunity. The lack of follow-up in regard to his revelations should surprise no one familiar with the similar tactics of the FBI and WC in 1963/64. McKeown clearly encountered lackeys of the original conspirators planning the murder of JFK, and the encounter revealed the true purpose of the hit: to place the blame on Fidel Castro and provoke an invasion of Cuba. Is there any other way to read this?

What is the evidence that Robert McKeown was connected with organized crime? I can’t recall anyone before making that claim. Are you thinking, perhaps, that McKeown testified that Jack Ruby approached him claiming to know some people in the Mafia? McKeown was a close personal friend of Fidel Castro. I believe his testimony. He obviously didn’t want to testify and refused to do so until the HSCA gave his counsel a written grant of immunity. I’m astounded that they did that! The HSCA kept his testimony hidden for decades, burying a line or two about it in a report saying he was probably seeking a book deal or other notoriety. (Notice how often that claim was made for inconvenient witnesses?) Of course, there is no evidence whatsoever that McKeown tried to pedal his story or profit over it in any way. I also believe McKeown because his tale fits in perfectly with the conspirators’ obvious attempts to blame the assassination on Castro and provoke an invasion of Cuba.... Just as “Lee Harvey Oswald” and the Fair Play for Cuba charade in front of Clay Shaw’s Trade Mart in New Orleans was designed to pin the blame on Castro.... Just as all that bs about a “Negro with red hair” handing him a big bag o’ kill Kennedy money in the Cuban embassy in Mexico City was invented to create still more “evidence” against Castro. Can you imagine if the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD had been traced to Castro’s personal friend and weapon provider? McKewon was no fool and smelled a rat when “Lee Oswald” approached him. It hardly matters in this instance whether the fellow accompanying “Hernandez” was born with the name “Lee Harvey Oswald,” or was a practiced Oswald impostor, or was just some guy using the name “Lee Oswald” for the day. A rifle from Robert McKeown was supposed to be the murder weapon. The McKeown sting happened soon after Labor Day , 1963. The assassination of JFK happened less than three months later. This timing, I think, is part of the reason the evidence for the Magic Rifle stinks so much.

The Magic Carcano had to be Plan B... or C... or D. Plan A was surely to put a 300 Savage rifle with scope purchased by "Lee Harvey Oswald" from Robert McKeown, Fidel Castro's close personal friend and long-time arms supplier. From HarveyandLee.net: On Labor Day weekend, 1963, Robert McKeown, his wife, and friend Sam Niel were in McKeown's house in Texas when a car drove into the driveway and two men soon knocked on his front door. When McKeown opened the door the American said, "You are McKeown, are you not? I understand that you can supply any amount of arms." McKeown asked for the man's name and he introduced himself as LEE Oswald (not Lee Harvey Oswald), and his friend as Mr. Hernandez. Oswald asked McKeown if he could obtain rifles, and offered to pay him $10,000 for four 300 Savage rifles with scopes. Somewhat perplexed, McKeown told Oswald that he could buy the same rifles at Sears & Roebuck for $75 and then asked, "Why come to me?" McKeown, who was nearing the end of his 5-year probation for running guns to Castro, was leery of Oswald and refused his offer. McKeown told the (HSCA), "I said, you are not going to get them through me. I did not want anymore part of any kind of rifles. I would not be caught with a rifle. I said, you came to the wrong man, I am not going to get involved, and thank God I did not get them." LEE Oswald and Hernandez left the house and were walking toward their car when McKeown closed the door. McKeown said to his friend Sam Niel, "Ain't that a hell of a mess?" Niel replied, "Mac, don't mess with them." A few minutes later LEE Oswald returned and knocked on McKeown's door. He repeated his offer, which McKeown again refused, and then left with Hernandez and never returned.

I'll bet you're right on this. One of the first pieces of advice John Armstrong had for me years ago was to never, ever explain that I was researching the Kennedy assassination and expect straightforward answers from federal employees, and many other people as well. On several occasions when I was assisting him on some little bit of research, I went to great lengths to completely redact phrases such as "Lee Harvey Oswald" and "November 22, 1963" from printed documents before sending them to document experts. Results of this kind of research were sometimes astounding. My favorite was an opinion by a documents examiner working for IBM that three different W-2 forms supposedly covering "Lee Harvey Oswald's" teen-aged employment by three different employers were all typed on the same machine.

Stu, I'm pretty sure John Armstrong found the alteration of Cadigan's testimony during one of his many visits to NARA in the 1990s, but I'm not sure of the specifics. He thinks, btw, the handwriting is Allen Dulles's. I'll try to remember to ask him about it, but it will be a week or so before I can.

DJ also has a VERY detailed article over at CTKA detailing much of what's wrong with the saga of the Magic Carcano. Part 1 is here: http://ctka.net/2015/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf Give the big pdf file a few seconds to download. It's chock full of EVIDENCE.

The evidence for the rifle is so screwy and contradictory it’s probably a good idea to keep an open mind about this, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’ve got to point out that the whole Eye-talian Carbine thing was probably a hastily put together Plan B or Plan C concocted entirely in the fall of 1963. The rifle that was supposed to be found near the sixth floor “sniper’s nest” was surely a .300 Savage rifle purchased from Fidel Castro’s personal friend and long-time gun supplier, Robert McKeown. On Labor Day weekend, 1963, a man identifying himself as “Lee Oswald” showed up at McKeown’s Texas home and repeatedly tried to buy rifles from him, eventually offering the ludicrous price of $10,000 for four rifles with scopes. McKeown, currently on probation for Cuban drug-running charges, wisely refused the offer.

Isn’t it fascinating that WC loyalist David Von Pein choses to discuss ANYTHING about the FBI’s bogus evidence for the Magic Rifle (and the revolver!) EXCEPT the subject of this thread: which is as follows: The 11/22/63 sworn affidavit by Crescent Firearms president Louis Feldsott indicated that the Magic Rifle was sold by his company to Klein’s Sporting Goods on June 18, 1962. Feldsott’s summary data provided to the WC reaffirmed the 1962 sales date and indicated that the information was corroborated by Mitchell Scibor. Why then, do we have printed documents indicating the rifle was sold the following year to Kleins (Feb. 7, 1963)? The answer is that the documents are FBI forgeries, part of the organization’s now clear effort to convict “LHO” based on a small mountain of phony evidence. How do we dare suggest the FBI and the WC forged evidence in this case? BECAUSE WE HAVE PROOF, AND PLENTY OF IT! Here’s a 3-minute YouTube video showing how the FBI altered evidence from three Dealey Plaza witnesses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODXoISgU-0M Here’s how the Warren Commission altered the testimony of FBI agent James Cadiagan, who inadvertently admitted the FBI had secretly seized “Oswald’s possessions” the night of the assassination and secretly returned them (ALTERED!!) to Dallas before publicly sending them to Washington a few days later: Here is Cadigan’s original typed testimony with the deletions indicated: And here’s how his official altered testimony eventually appeared in the printed volumes: There can be no argument whether the FBI and the Warren Commission altered evidence: both clearly did. The only thing that can be argued is HOW MUCH evidence was tampered with. And the answer is A LOT! It is often not as easy to prove as the above, but it can be proved nevertheless. For example…. As he did months ago, Mr. Von Pein again reproduces the following Kleins’ advertisements attempting to explain why FBI handwriting analysts asserted LHO’s handwriting was on a money order for a $12.78 rifle: Mr. Von Pein asserts that the media was simply confused, reporting the price of the rifle WITHOUT A SCOPE. But that is simply untrue, as many contemporary newspaper accounts will attest: Note the two paragraphs near the bottom of the left-hand column in the 11/24/63 UPI story above. They read as follows (emphasis added): Police Chief Jesse Curry wove police evidence tighter around Oswald. He said the FBI reported that Oswald bought the Italian 6.5 Carcano bolt-action rifle with a telescopic sight from a Chicago mail order house for $12.78. The handwriting on the mail order was Oswald’s, Curry said. This information could only have come from the FBI. Hoover’s FBI could alter witness testimony, and change and invent documentary “evidence,” but even the mighty J. Edgar Hoover could not recall and alter millions of daily newspaper accounts of the earliest evidence. A careful analysis of that evidence shows that, although the FBI claimed to have found “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” handwriting on an order for the Magic Rifle within hours of the assassination, it didn’t get it’s story straight about such simple things as the cost of the rifle for nearly a week. For more details, see: http://harveyandlee.net/Mail_Order_Rifle/Mail_Order_Rifle.html In yet another of Mr. Von Pein’s investigatory offenses, he at least seems to be entirely satisfied with accepting any conclusions whatsoever about the assassination made by paid workers of the U.S. government, even though a huge proportion of U.S. citizens believe elements of the U.S. government may have been involved in the hit. The is like asking an accused bank robber to prosecute himself in court. And so Mr. Von Pein believes handwriting experts for the WC and HSCA examined the original copy of the Magic Money Order? Then perhaps Mr. Von Pein can tell us where the original is? Perhaps he can at least show us a color photograph of it (not some colorized media mock-up). Where is it, Mr. Von Pein? Is he sure that these reports weren’t altered, as so many other things were? Even in 1963, the FBI was a huge organization, capable of massive propaganda efforts. Sure is stunning how many FBI people died just as the HSCA was getting started.

Greetings, David Von Pein, You provide some lovely quotes, but obviously these handwriting experts are willing to say just about anything…. or they were talking about a different original Magic Money Order. Because the Magic Money Order originally obtained by the FBI was for $12.78, not for the amount Hoover eventually decided “LHO” paid for the Magic Rifle. Newspapers all across the United States reported this. Do you have an image of that truly original $12.78 money order? Even a black and white copy will do.

Hi, Sandy. As opposed to most other researchers, John Armstrong spent weeks and months at the National Archives in Washington where he was allowed to examine and personally hold all the items of "evidence" supposedly in LHO's possession or handled by him. John had to wear little white evidence gloves while making the inspections, and compared, for example, Oswald's so-called "possessions" with the various inventory lists from the FBI and DPD. He reported that there were very few originals of any written documents in the entire collection. John believes that he was the last researcher given unrestricted right to handle Oswald's possessions. Toward the end of John's many visits to the archives, they began restricting the number of items he could check each day. There are claims about inspecting the original money order, but the copy you have linked, I believe, was a mock-up of the so-called original created by, if memory serves, CBS.

That’s the $64k question, Tom. John and I have discussed this several times, and the easy part of the answer is that there was obviously something in that paperwork Hoover didn’t want on the record. Exactly what that detail was is another matter. John thinks it may have had something to do with the timing of the advertising of various rifles and model specifics by Kleins, or perhaps with the Walker shooting, or even with Ruth Paine. He’d like to find the time to collect as many as possible of Kleins’ rifle ads from the era and try to figure out why Hoover couldn’t let the original sale records see the light of day. There is probably a relatively simple reason, but at the moment we don’t know what it is. These phony documents are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to FBI fabrications, though, for the alleged murder rifle in particular and the case against “Lee Harvey Oswald” in general. The larger picture showing how the FBI invented more than a dozen pieces of fabricated evidence for the Magic Rifle alone can be seen here: http://harveyandlee.net/Mail_Order_Rifle/Mail_Order_Rifle.html And… as we should always note… that “evidence” shows that that the Magic Money Order allegedly used to pay for the Magic Rifle was never cashed nor deposited into a bank. See: http://harveyandlee.net/MoneyOrder.html

SUMMARY OF C2766. Some 8-9 hours after President Kennedy was shot in Dallas, Crescent Firearms owner/President Louis Feldsott gave his company's original records relating to the importing and sale of C2766 to the FBI. According to company records Crescent Firearms sold C2766 to Klein's Sporting Goods on June 18, 1962. Klein's then re-sold this rifle (C2766) to an individual who's identity appeared on Klein's original microfilm records. On 11/23/63 three FBI agents examined Klein's original microfilm records and most likely knew the identity of the person who purchased C2766. But that person was not Oswald/Hidell. The identity of this person remains unknown. The FBI agents took the original Klein's microfilm, which was soon hand delivered to FBI headquarters in Washington DC. The Klein's microfilm soon disappeared while in FBI custody. The following document (below, left) is a synopsis of information provided by Louis Feldsott (Crescent Firearms) to the Warren Commission. The WC knew that Feldsott gave the original sales order, number 3178, to the FBI on the evening of 11/22/63. This original sales order shows that Crescent Firearms sold C2766 to Klein's on June 18, 1962. And Klein's microfilm records showed the name and address of the person or persons who purchased C2766 from Kleins. But all of Feldsott's (Crescent Firearms) original records disappeared while in FBI custody. And all of Klein's original microfilm records disappeared while in FBI custody. The FBI and Warren Commission ignored Louis Feldsott, ignored the original Crescent Firearms sales order #3178, ignored Feldsott's affidavit (below), and never provided any information as to the identity of the person or persons who purchased the rifle (C2766) that was sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962. Someone purchased C2766 from Klein's, but this person was not Oswald/Hidell. The FBI needed needed to provide the Warren Commission with documents to show that C2766 was sold by Crescent Firearms to Klein's in early 1963, and was then re-sold to Oswald/Hidell. A Crescent Firearms invoice was fabricated (below) to show that 100 rifles (including C2766) were sold to Klein's on February 7, 1963. Note that #3178 (Crescent's original sales order of June 18, 1963) appears on the fabricated Crescent Firearms invoice. A Lifschultz Fast Freight shipping document (below) was then fabricated to show that C2766 was delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963. Finally, a Klein's invoice was created in order to show that C2766 was sold to Oswald/Hidell on March 20, 1963. The WC knew, from information provided by Louis Feldsott, that C2766 was sold to Klein's on June 18, 1962. The Warren Commission also knew that not a single document relating to C2766, provided by the FBI, was original--all documents were either paper copies or photographs. This "evidence" consisted of nothing more than paper copies and photographs of altered and fabricated records. The Commission's willingness to accept COPIES AND PHOTOGRAPHS OF DOCUMENTS, instead of insisting on original documents, shows their collusion with the FBI in a deliberate attempt to try and prove that Oswald purchased C2766 from Klein's. The deliberate mis-handling and mis-interpreting of these fabricated documents was obvious when WC Attorney David Belin questioned Klein's Vice President William Waldman. Belin, again and again, blatantly mis-lead and limited his questioning of Waldman in order to show that C2766 was sold to Oswald/Hidell. The complete details of the FBI's handling, manipulation and fabrication of evidence, and the Warren Commission's handling and/or suppressing witness testimony, are far too numerous to include in this brief summary. But documentation and witness testimony published by the Warren Commission clearly shows there is not a single, conclusive piece of ORIGINAL evidence that proves Oswald ordered, purchased, or received a rifle. Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry was correct when he said, "We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle. No one has been able to put him in that building with a gun in his hand." --Above by John Armstrong, added today to: http://harveyandlee.net/Guns/Guns.html

John Armstrong sent me an email a week ago or so in which he asked me to edit and post “to honest and knowledgeable Internet discussion groups” his thoughts about the murder of J.D. Tippit and how the facts were altered in the official reports about it. Here ‘tis…. He hopes that someone will write an article that explains why certain witnesses to the Tippit killing were ignored because of their testimony as to the time of the shooting, while the statements of other witnesses who provided no time for the shooting were used… He hopes that someone will post a story that explains how WC attorneys failed to ask important questions of witnesses (such as asking Virginia Davis why she made the statement that Tippit lived next door). He hopes this story will explain the disappearance of original documents related to officer Tippit’s murder (Dudley Hughes’ time-stamped dispatch, Tippit’s original death certificate, the two halves of dollar bills taken from Oswald, the Westbrook wallet, etc). John added: “The cover-up of the Tippit assassination (including the time of the shooting, individuals involved in the shooting, the disappearance and manipulation of evidence, etc.) is much easier to understand, and much more limited, than the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. But understanding how official reports on the assassination of Tippit were manipulated and distorted will give insight regarding the methods used to cover-up the true nature of the Kennedy assassination.”

A far more likely scenario is that Honest Ken Croy didn’t just happen to run into his wife driving by City Hall a couple of minutes after the assassination because such an encounter in that bedlam is a coincidence beyond belief. Perhaps he decided to use his wife and the lunch date as an excuse, thinking he could invoke spousal privilege if it was ever legally necessary. I don't think he ever asked cops he didn't know and couldn't name if he was needed at the scene of the shooting of the President of the United States. And I certainly don't think any cop would have told him, under the circumstances, that he wasn't needed. Croy may not have interviewed anyone at 10th and Patton, which would explain why he couldn’t remember who anyone was, couldn’t remember anything anyone said, and wasn’t remembered as being there by any of the witnesses or police. I think he probably more or less hid in the narrow driveway or somewhere similar until Westbrook came back to Tippit’s murder site with the evidence against LHO in hand. Then, perhaps, he popped out briefly to make a Big Deal about the planted wallet with the Oswald/Hidell IDs, and then disappeared again. I think it is likely that Croy let Ruby slip into the basement without proper press credentials because, by his own admission, he went to the basement on his own accord—without orders to do so. I don’t think he really made any effort at all to stop Jack Ruby. His heroic attempt to stop him sure doesn’t appear on any video I’ve seen. For anyone who believes Croy's story... can I offer to sell you the George Washington Bridge?

More contradictions in Honest Ken Croy's testimony: Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the taxi driver? Mr. CROY. Yes; I did. I talked to the taxi driver. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime? Mr. CROY. Yes. Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was? Mr. CROY. No; I didn't get his name. There was a private detective agency. There was a report that a cabdriver had picked up Tippit's gun and had left, presumably. They don't know whether he was the one that had shot Tippit, or whether the man, I think it was he, brought someone out there, something. Anyway, he saw it and he picked up Tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that. Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a detective who was an eyewitness? Mr. CROY. No; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene. Mr. GRIFFIN. But the taxicab driver was an eyewitness? Mr. CROY. As far as I know. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to the taxicab driver? Mr. CROY. No; I took Tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and I turned him over to them and they questioned him. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked with there? Croy also stated this in his testimony: Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the Tippit--how long did you remain at the scene of the Tippit killing? Mr. CROY. Oh, I would say a good 30 minutes. Thirty or forty minutes, something like that. If he stayed thirty minutes he would still be at the scene when Oswald was being dragged out of the theater. If he stayed forty minutes then he was still at the scene when Oswald was being walked into the Homicide and Robbery Offices at City Hall. Nothing concerning CROY'S appearance or experiences at the Tippit site was ever officially recorded. Mr. GRIFFIN. You were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time? Mr. CROY. I slept there. Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was your wife living there also? Mr. CROY. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated from her? Mr. CROY. No. (To reporter: Don't put that in there.) Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you separated at that time? Mr. CROY. At that time. Croy reported for duty on Sunday morning along with a group of other DPD reservists and said that as police dispatches came in different reservists were sent out for duty. When he was interviewed by the FBI on December 4, 1963, he said that was asked by a Sergeant, name of whom he couldn't recall, to search the building. Once the search had been completed he then states he entered the basement under his "own volition" at 10:00 am. Therefore, according to Croy's own words he was not assigned to the basement that morning once the search had been completed and went down there on his own orders to "aid the security."

Helen Markham was on the corner when the shooting occurred. She lived several blocks away--not across the street. It is not likely that she was "watering her lawn" or doing "something" on any lawn at 10th and Patton at the time of Tippit's murder. LOL!

Sandy, It seems quite obvious to me that Croy was trying, in his testimony, to distance himself from his handling of Ruby prior to Oswald's murder. In his Dec. 1 affidavit, Croy said, "I believe this man that I spoke to to have been Jack Ruby." A few lines later he adds, "At this time I observed a blur come from my left side. I was off balance. I saw a man running into the crowd in a crouch. At that moment I reached for this individual and touched he coat tail attempting to stop him. I saw him run up to Oswald and I heard a shot..." In his testimony, he tries to tell Griffin he didn't recognize anyone in the area in front of him where the reporters were standing, and, when confronted by Griffin about his affidavit, says he didn't mention Ruby because he was next to him. But since he said in his affidavit that he tried to grab Ruby's "coat tail attempting to stop him," Ruby obviously WAS right in front of him when he was rushing toward Oswald. In his affidavit, he said, "I believe this man that I spoke to to have been Jack Ruby." But here's how... uh... unsure he becomes during his testimony. Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t understand. You have said here, if I understand it in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby. Mr. CROY. I believe when I wrote that up it was him. Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man wasn’t Jack Ruby? Mr. CROY. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby? Mr. CROY. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby. Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Mr. Croy. I don’t know whether it was or not. If that isn't a contradiction on an absolutely crucial matter, I don't know what is. At any rate, with Honest Ken Croy, you have to look at the Big Picture. Croy either lied about the Westbrook wallet in 1963/1964, or he lied about it in the 1990s. No matter how you spin it or say it doesn't matter, there is no innocent explanation! And then there are all the stunning coincidences. Croy happens to drive by his wife and set a lunch date in the traffic bedlam at City Hall minutes or seconds after the assassination, he's the first cop at the Tippit murder scene despite all the wrong addresses given by the dispatcher, he talks to a witness for "5 or 10 minutes" about what the killer wore but dosen't know what the killer wore... or what direction he walked from Tenth & Patton, and of course, being the one cop who talked to Ruby and even tried to stop him just before the LHO hit. I think Croy died a few years ago, and so he is no longer with us to defend himself, and I have no problem with someone giving John's theory a run for its money... but there is no way Croy is totally innocent in this matter. The wallet alone seals his fate as either a co-conspirator or a conspirator after the fact. And there is so much more that a real investigation undoubtedly would have uncovered. Interesting discussion, though.

Yes, Sandy, since you were urging everyone to read Honest Ken's testimony, I didn't think it would be too difficult for you to read half a page of it. But to save time, here it is (it's getting late and I'm not going to clean up any OCR anomalies): Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize this other fellow? Mr. CROY. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, what did you do? Mr. CROY. I turned back around and watched the reporters in front of me. Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized? Mr. CROY. Where? Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you? Mr. CROY. No. Mr. GRIFFIN.Well, maybe I don’t understand your affidavit here. You stated in here, “someone in authority gave instructions to move the press back against the rail. At that time I turned and told two men standing to my left to move back against the rail. One of these men had a motion picture camera. The other one was in a dark maroon coat with black thread woven into it. He was wearing a black hat. My father has a coat something similar to the man I spoke to. “I then turned my attention back to the reporters which were standing in front of me. I believe this man to have been Jack Ruby.” The “to” is underlined. Which man are you referring to? Mr. CROY. The man with the maroon coat that was standing to my left. The other man I told to move back against the rail. Mr. GRIFFIN. Miss Reporter, would you please turn back in your notes and read where he referred to the position of the reporters? (The following questions and answers were read : “Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see someone there that you recognized? “Mr. CROY. Where? “Mr. GRIFFIN. Where the reporters were in front of you? “Mr. CROY. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. Will the reporter please indicate in the record what portion was read back to the witness? Now, you heard the reporter read back that testimony. Mr. CROY. Yes ; I did. Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t understand. You have said here, if I understand it in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be Jack Ruby. Mr. CROY. I believe when I wrote that up it was him. Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, have you since come to believe that that man wasn’t Jack Ruby? Mr. CROY. No. Mr. GRIFFIN. You still believe that man was Jack Ruby? Mr. CROY. To myself, I still believe it was Jack Ruby. Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Mr. Croy. I don’t know whether it was or not. Good night.

You said that Croy contradicted himself ("on numerous occasions") in his WC testimony. It wasn't till decades later that he claimed to have recovered the wallet. We don't know whether he conveniently forgot that in his WC testimony, or if he lied about recovering the wallet in his decades-later statement. Regardless, this hardly constitutes Croy contradicting himself "on numerous occasions" in his WC testimony. You see what I mean? As a blatant example of Croy contradicting himself, I directed Sandy to the bottom half of page 192 of his testimony, in which he claimed he didn't see Jack Ruby in front of him. When Burt Griffin pointed out that Croy admitted he saw Ruby in his affidavit, Croy mumbled about until Griffin had the court reporter read back Croy's own words. Sandy indicates that above I wrote "Well, for example, ...." but what I REALLY wrote was "Well, for example, see the bottom half of page 92 of his testimony." That's where Croy denied seeing Ruby standing right in front of him before Griffin forces him to admit that he saw him. I'd call that a blatant contradiction, but Sandy sees nothing suspicious about it... and nothing suspicious in altering my words. Perhaps Sandy would like to type in the bottom half of page 192 here to show me that I'm wrong! Go ahead, Sandy.