Jim Hargrove

For those who believe the U.S. Deep State invented the Russian electronic attacks on our 2016 election, isn’t it remarkable that the Deep State exonerated President Trump from conspiring with the Russians but nevertheless said, according to William Barr’s 3/24/2019 summary of the Mueller Report, the following: The Special Counsel's investigation determined that there were two main Russian efforts to influence the 2016 election. The first involved attempts by a Russian organization, the Internet Research Agency (IRA), to conduct disinformation and social media operations in the United States designed to sow social discord, eventually with the aim of interfering with the election. As noted above, the Special Counsel did not find that any U.S. person or Trump campaign official or associate conspired or knowingly coordinated with the IRA in its efforts, although the Special Counsel brought criminal charges against a number of Russian nationals and entities in connection with these activities. The second element involved the Russian government's efforts to conduct computer hacking operations designed to gather and disseminate information to influence the election. The Special Counsel found that Russian government actors successfully hacked into computers and obtained emails from persons affiliated with the Clinton campaign and Democratic Party organizations, and publicly disseminated those materials through various intermediaries, including WikiLeaks. Based on these activities, the Special Counsel brought criminal charges against a number of Russian military officers for conspiring to hack into computers in the United States for purposes of influencing the election. But as noted above, the Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts, despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign.

Let’s let Bonnie Ray Williams and Junior Jarman go for a minute and just consider Mary Hollies. As you probably know, there’s lots of so-called evidence from 1964 that she didn’t see Oswald, any Oswald, around the time of the assassination. Easiest to ignore are the FBI versions, so…. In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64 she allegedly said, “At the time the shots were fired, I did not see Oswald or know of his whereabouts. During the morning of the assassination of President Kennedy, I saw no individuals in the Texas School Book Depository who attracted my attention in any way.” That does sound uncommonly definitive, does it not? <LOL> In her allegedly signed FBI statement of 3/19/64, Betty Alice Foster allegedly said, “I was with Mary Hollies, 242 W. Davis, Dallas, Texas. I heard something that sounded like fireworks after the President's car turned down Elm Street but I wasn't sure what it was. I did not know what had happened. I did not see lee Harvey Oswald at that time or anyone who looked like him.” Even more definitive, eh? Harder to dismiss is the W. E. Potts (DPD Homicide and Robbery Detective) report of 2/18/64 in which he described his interview with Miss Hollies. Potts doesn’t indicate Hollies said anything about seeing Oswald near the time of the assassination. She does say that she watched the parade with Alice Foster by looking out a fourth floor window. Potts’s report ends with these words: “Miss Hollies states she did not know Oswald, but had seen him in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository on numerous occasions. She does not know Jack Ruby.” Even harder to dismiss, assuming it is true, is that neither Hollies nor Alice Foster said anything for nearly 50 years about seeing “Lee Harvey Oswald” taking a freight elevator up to the so-called sniper’s nest shortly before JFK was assassinated. It seems to me the FBI and the DPD and the WC would have LOVED to hear that! But we hear it 48 years after the fact from, of all sources, the Sixth Floor Museum? If I were asked to name any organization on earth less trustworthy than the FBI regarding the Kennedy Assassination, the Sixth Floor Museum might be the only outfit I could conjure. It all sounds completely unbelievable to me.

John, Thanks for the input. Here’s Carr’s alleged description of events according to the FBI statement: "While I was on Houston St. near the Commerce St. intersection I saw a man whom I believe was identical with the man I had earlier seen looking out of the window of the Texas School Book Depository building. This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston St. south to Commerce St., then east on Commerce St. to Record St. which is one block from Houston St. This man got into a 1961 or 1962 Grey Rambler Station Wagon which was parked just north of Commerce on Record St. The station wagon, which had Texas license and was driven by a young negro man, drove off in a northerly direction.” In other words, according to the FBI Carr says he saw the man walking from the general direction of the TSBD south on Houston toward his (Carr’s) position near Houston and Commerce (two blocks south of the TSBD) and then east on commerce a block to Record, where he got into the Rambler and drove north (which is in the general direction of the Book Depository). In his Shaw trial testimony, Carr describes the Rambler as being parked substantially closer to the TSBD, and he clearly describes more than one person getting into it, as you say. Unless I’m missing other parts of his Garrison testimony, you’re right to point out that these descriptions are substantially different. We agree that there is little reason to believe the the FBI’s version of anything related to the assassination. The only thing that bothers me, though, it that even the FBI version of Carr’s observation smacks of the possibility of conspiracy, and the Bureau’s usual fakery was far more ham-handed. Thanks again for pointing to Carr’s testimony at the Shaw trial.

I’ve been assuming that in his 11/22 handwritten affidavit Baker just got the floor wrong in describing his encounter with the brown-shirted Oswald (Harvey). His description isn’t very accurate (“a white man approx 30 years old 5-9-165 lbs – dk hair and wearing a lt brown jacket”) but it isn’t totally bonkers and it must not have been very bright in the stairway. That big, untucked brown shirt could surely be called a jacket, and since Truly told him “he works here,” that really limits the possibilities. Do you guys completely discount the possibility that Baker was describing brown-shirted Oswald, but got the floor wrong?

I haven’t read this entire thread, but are some people here denying that the Russian government was involved in an enormous effort to help Trump win the election? If so, I’m convinced they’re wrong. The original U.S. Intel assessments that the Russians were involved in a big e-campaign to discredit Clinton and promote discordance among U.S. voters was significantly lacking in hard evidence. But as time went by, a lot of evidence of Russian involvement was developed by what at least appear to be independent tech sources. For example, evidence that the original spearphishing attack that John Podesta fell for came from Russians was developed more than a year ago by the three outfits listed below, and many others. This all came well before Mueller’s indictments. SecureWork, an Atlanta-based subsidiary of Dell Computers, wrote a report that can be read here: https://www.secureworks.com/research/threat-group-4127-targets-hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign CrowdStrike Company, a Sunnyvale, CA outfit founded by a former McAfee technical executive named George Kurtz came to the same conclusion. Kurtz wrote the best-selling bible of Internet security called “Hacking Exposed: Network Security Secrets and Solutions.” CrowdStrike’s report can be read here: https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/ A CrowdStrike associate named ThreatConnect took CrowdStrike’s original research and delved even deeper, showing the technical evidence linking the email theft to FANCY BEAR and COZY BEAR, both Russian-based intel groups. Read ThreatConnect’s report here: https://www.threatconnect.com/blog/tapping-into-democratic-national-committee/ We all know the power of Amercian Intel and how its tentacles go everywhere, but above is just the tip of the iceberg of evidence that Russians hacked Clinton’s campaign. There are many more studies. The subject was of great interest to tech nerds everywhere, and because the Wikileaks releases were done electronically rather than on paper, all the smtp headers in the emails were preserved, making full analysis of this stuff by private techies reasonably straightforward. As opposed to the crappy CIA/Homeland Security report more interested in preserving its secrets than giving compelling technical proof, the reports above, and many others, include real evidence!

Megathanks to Bart K. and Malcolm Blunt for making these documents available to us. I hope others interested in this will double-check, but after comparing the two it appears to me that the typed FBI report of 2/4/64 accurately reflects Carr’s handwritten statement of 2/3/64. Although Carr’s handwritten statement does not refer to it, the introductory paragraph on the next day’s FBI typed version includes a reference to a statement made by Carr a month earlier. Has anyone seen that? The 1/9/64 FBI memo and the 1/15/64 airtel that Bart posted above seem mostly concerned with a woman’s hearsay report that Carr told her “Lee Harvey Oswald had not assassinated President Kennedy.” Since Carr specifically denied the woman’s claim in his 2/3/64 handwritten statement, can we assume that was the main reason the FBI re-interviewed him, if that in fact is what happened? It is NEVER a good idea to blindly trust FBI reports in this case. We have example after example of how so many were falsified. But in the case of Richard Randolph Carr, it appears to me that Bureau accurately depicted his hand-written statement, at least the one of 2/3/64. Again, if anyone has seen an earlier statement by Carr, I’d love to see it. Thanks again to Bart and Malcolm.

John, The FBI surely deserves less trust than any other organization (except perhaps the CIA) in the cover-up aspect of this case, and if I saw a legitimate reason to believe Carr’s 2/4/64 statement was altered by Hoover and the boys, I wouldn’t hesitate to believe it. But the 1964 statement and the 1969 testimony aren’t really all that different, beyond some details, and Carr’s memory might have been clearer in the earlier version. As you say, there are differences. For example.... In the 1964 FBI version, Carr said he witnessed the fellow we’re considering “looking out of a window of the top floor” of the TSBD. But in the 1969 Shaw trial he said, “at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window....” Although the brief physical descriptions of the man summarize different details, it is obviously the same fellow he witnessed in both versions, neither of which say the man was on the sixth floor, though my bet is that’s exactly where Carr really saw him. My guess, and it’s just that, is that the FBI didn’t alter the 2/4/64 statement because it clearly contains information that COULD suggest conspiracy. Carr’s description during the Shaw trial of the sighting comes more than five years after the event and, apparently, after years of harassment. That said, show me a real reason to believe the 2/4/64 FBI version was fraudulent, and I’ll believe it in a heartbeat. Thanks for your continuing input!

Thanks, John. My guess is John A. is aware of Carr’s 1969 testimony, but I’m sure he’s based the paragraph above on Carr’s alleged FBI statement of 2/4/64. Here are a couple of excerpts: ... I observed a man looking out of a window of the top floor of the Texas School Book Depository building. This man, a heavy set individual, who was wearing a hat, a tan sport coat and horn rimmed glasses, was not in the end window next to Houston St. but was I believe in the second window over from Houston St.... ... While I was on Houston St. near the Commerce St. intersection I saw a man whom I believe was identical with the man I had earlier seen looking out of the window of the Texas School Book Depository building. This man, walking very fast, proceeded on Houston St. south to Commerce St., then east on Commerce St. to Record St. which is one block from Houston St. This man got into a 1961 or 1962 Grey Rambler Station Wagon which was parked just north of Commerce on Record St. The station wagon, which had Texas license and was driven by a young negro man, drove off in a northerly direction.... The complete statement is here: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/C Disk/Carr Richard Randolph/Item 02.pdf No doubt anything coming out of the FBI in this case has to be approached warily, but I really see no reason for Hoover to have faked this version. What do you think?

I think Truly was probably involved... and Shelley. BTW, since John only added the information fairly recently to his Escape from the 6th Floor write-up, I thought I’d post here why we suspect Shelley was detained and taken to police headquarters too early to have really been involved in fingering Oswald as missing at the TSBD. Danny Arce told the Warren Commission the police took Bonnie Ray Williams, himself, Bill Shelley, and other TSBD employees to DPD headquarters (see photos above and below) about 1/2 hour after the shooting. Arce described to the Warren Commission how soon after the shooting they were taken to DPD headquarters (emphasis added): Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear? Mr. ARCE. Three Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building? Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them. Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks? Mr. ARCE. Yeah. Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there? Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the building. Mr. BALL. Where did you go then? Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building. Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there? Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out. Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement? Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department.

John A. has been reporting for years that Bernard Haire, who owned a hobby shop two doors east of the Texas Theater, saw who he thought was LHO under arrest brought out the back of the theater on 11/22/63. Haire spoke to some of Oliver Stone’s staff during the making of JFK. During author James Douglass’ 2007 interview with theater concessionaire Butch Burroughs, Burroughs said that he saw two different people arrested in the Texas Theater. He saw Oswald's arrest on the main floor and then, "three or four minutes later," watched as the Dallas police arrested "an Oswald lookalike." Burroughs added that the second man arrested "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something." DPD records have been available for decades indicating that an Oswald was arrested in the theater balcony as well as the main floor. John’s most recent write-up on the main floor/balcony arrests can be read on my website here: https://harveyandlee.net/November/November_22.htm Scroll down about ¾ of the page to the heading: “LEE OSWALD IS ARRESTED IN THE BALCONY AND TAKEN OUT THE BACK OF THE THEATER”

Focusing again on Truly and Shelley.... Circa 1:10 pm Truly tells Fritz LHO was missing. Working backwards…. Fritz and Lumpkin rode up the elevator to the 6th floor around 1:05. Just before Fritz told Lumpkin about LHO missing, he told the WC that he asked Shelley if he had seen LHO. The timing here is critical, because Shelley probably was already at DPD headquarters giving his affidavit. If this timing is remotely accurate, then Truly was lying about talking with Shelley. Truly hired LHO. Truly said nothing about the two men at the back of the first floor of the TSBD just a minute or so after the shooting. Isn’t there a pattern here? Should we not wonder if Truly was a co-conspirator?

John B. makes some fascinating points, but my guess is there were probably no more than two or three people in the assassination team on the sixth floor that afternoon. Some of the people John counts may overlap. For example, some or all of the men Richard Carr believed he saw leaving the building from the back may have been the same men seen on the sixth floor.

Just for reference, here's a 1978 Earl Golz article. This may be the one Pat is referring to in his original post.

The white shirt/brown shirt distinction is very helpful in discriminating between the two Oswalds on the day of the assassination. Despite the usual fog of eyewitness testimony, the shirt color is a discerning factor throughout the day, from movements inside the Book Depository, to the Tippit murder scene, and on to the theater. There is little doubt in my mind that white-shirted Oswald was on the sixth floor to frame his counterpart (who probably often worked in his undershirt). The man in the brown coat who Richard Carr believed was on the sixth floor and got into the Nash Rambler was surely working with the white-shirted Oswald. Virtually all WC critics know that all over the Dallas area for a month or so prior to the assassination Classic Oswald® had been impersonated and set up by someone who looked like him. Way back in 1967 Sylvia Meagher dissected this setup in a section of Accessories After the Fact she called “Two Oswalds.” Some people have a harder time accepting the fact that this subterfuge didn’t end on November 20 with Yates and the hitch-hiking episode. John A. makes a strong case that it continued right through the assassination of JFK, the Tippit murder, and the arrest of both Oswalds in the Texas Theater.

John B.... I was planning to let this thread go, but couldn’t help but wonder if anyone here thinks the dark complexioned man seen by Ruby Henderson, Johnny Powell and others on the 6th floor of the TSBD just before the assassination could be the same dark complexioned driver of the Nash Rambler seen by others on Elm.... Just asking....

To John B, Your description of the possible entry into the passenger elevator shaft from the sixth floor is quite similar to John A’s theory. We do, however, have a somewhat different view of how two men from the sixth floor got out of the building once they were in the passenger elevator. A little background on that.... John A. writes that at least four eyewitnesses saw a man wearing dark clothing or a brown coat on the sixth floor just before or during the assassination. Even more eyewitnesses saw a man wearing a white or light-colored shirt. Five witnesses and some county jail inmates described seeing two men on the six floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting. We believe the man in the white or light-colored shirt on the sixth floor was probably the same man who looked much like LHO and had been posing as LHO all over the Dallas area in the month prior to the assassination. (At the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target; at Morgan's Gun Shop on Nov. 2; at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership also on Nov. 2, where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds, saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car; at the Irving Furniture Mart on Nov. 6 or 7 looking for a gun part, where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked; at the Southland Hotel parking garage on Nov. 15, where he applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas; and, of course, picked up while hitch-hiking by Ralph Leon Yates with a four foot package.) Anyway, we believe that after the shots were fired the two men (one in a white shirt, the other in a brown jacket) walked about 15 feet to the top of the passenger elevator shaft and used a makeshift trap door to enter the passenger elevator shaft. The white-shirted man got off the elevator on the second floor. According to John A, his “intention was to walk down the steps to the first floor, and then leave out the rear of the building under the watchful eye of supervisor Bill Shelley. However, as he approached the hallway door leading to the stairs and lunchroom he may have heard people running up or down the stairs. He hesitated, and then opened the door immediately to his right and into the TSBD office…. He walked thru the TSBD office, unfamiliar to him and to most warehouse workers, and was last seen by Mrs. Reid when he walked out the front door of the office and into the hallway.” The man in the brown jacket continued riding the elevator to the first floor, and went directly to the rear of the building, probably passing Shelley and Lovelady. John wrote, “This man, wearing a brown jacket, was seen by James Worrell as he hurried out the back of the TSBD and then began walking south on Houston St. One block south this man walked past Richard Carr, who had seen this man a few minutes earlier on the 6th floor. Carr noticed this man was continually looking back over his shoulder as he was walking, and saw this man get into a Nash Rambler station wagon facing north on Record Street. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the same man, driving the Nash Rambler station wagon a few minutes later, when the station wagon stopped in front of the grassy knoll.” We think this is where the man in the white shirt, who for a month had been impersonating the man the world knows as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” got into the Nash Rambler. His purpose on the sixth floor was to appear to be "LHO."

That sounds logical, Paul. Regardless of whether the power was off to the freight elevators, they don’t seem to have been used as an escape route from the sixth floor, which doesn’t leave many options.

Many witnesses saw (and heard) activity on the sixth floor just prior to and during the assassination of JFK. Quite a few also said they saw two men on the sixth floor. Among the witnesses were Carolyn Walther, Ruby Henderson, Ronald Fischer, Robert Edwin Edwards, Tom Dillard, Howard Brennan and a number of witnesses from the county jail across the street. John A. started his most recent write-up by using a process of elimination in trying to figure out how anyone was able to escape the sixth floor without being seen or heard soon after the shots rang out. If you believe the man we know as Lee Harvey Oswald was not on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination, how do you explain how the man or men who were there got down without being noticed?

Paul, Yes, unfortunately we don't know much about the wiring. As a builder, though, John A. was pretty certain that when the second, third, and fourth floors were remodeled as offices and new wiring was installed, there would most likely by an entirely new panel built for the new circuits. There are at least two electrical boxes on the first floor of the TSBD.

Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was callingso I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.  The lights went out and the phones went dead in Geneva Hine's second floor office just before the motorcade arrived, clearly indicating at least parts of the power system in the building went out. The phone system in her office required building electricity to operate properly.

Yeah, at some point when Truly and Baker were climbing the stairs, Dougherty used the west elevator to go from the fifth floor to the first. Baker or Truly or both (can’t remember) noted that the west elevator had left the fifth floor and gone down to the first. Therefore, the first power outage had to be brief, and that was certainly by design if John A’s theory is correct. Just enough time to take the shots and climb down into the passenger elevator. Wasn’t it Dougherty, though, who noted LHO wasn’t carrying a brown paper sack into the TSBD that fateful morning? Credit him for that!

John, I think the power to the elevator and perhaps the office space was cut off briefly on two separate occasions. The first was just before the motorcade arrived in front of the building, as noted by Geneva Hine. That probably ensured that the passenger elevator would remain on the fourth floor so that the real assassins on the 6th floor could make their escape through the shaft on the fifth floor. That same partial power outage was probably still in effect when Truly tried to call the elevator. But it seems to have lasted just a couple of minutes after which elevator power was briefly restored (which would allow the 6th floor assassins to go down to the second floor, according to John’s theory, where one of them got off). A short time after Truly and Baker went up the back stairs, the power to the elevator(s) was shut off a second time, surely by Shelley, ostensibly in order to prevent an escape as more police arrived.

Geneva Hine’s testimony seems to indicate that at least some of the power in the building went out just as the motorcade approached (emphasis added). Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time? Miss HINE. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk? Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office. From the Adams statement to Leavelle (emphasis added): The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository and around to the front.... No one had surrounded the building at that time. I went back into the building and to the passenger elevator, but the power was off. I went to the back to the freight elevator. There was two plainclothes men on it. However, the power on it was also turned off. From Officer Baker's WC Testimony (emphasis added): Mr. BAKER - And he was trying to get that service elevator down there. Mr. BELIN - All right. What did you see Mr. Truly do? Mr. BAKER - He ran over there and pushed the button to get it down. Mr. BELIN - Did the elevator come down after he pushed the button? Mr. BAKER - No, sir; it didn't. Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do? Mr. BAKER - He hollered for it, said, "Bring that elevator down here." Mr. BELIN - How many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection? Mr. BAKER - It seemed like he did it twice. Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what did he do? Mr. BAKER - I said let's take the stairs.

But there were at least four witnesses who could debunk Adams’ Shelley/Lovelady sighting, if it was false. There is no doubt the WC desperately needed some subterfuge here, but I don’t see any advantage to them by inventing Adams’ encounter over just pushing back on the time. Besides, we aren’t arguing over whether Shelley and Lovelady were at the back of the first floor soon after the hit; they admitted they were in what appears to be their own handwriting on Nov. 22, 1963. We are debating, at best, a time difference of just a few minutes. If memory serves, somebody said that there were very few TSBD employees inside the building at the time of the assassination. I would think even fewer were at the BACK of the building, away from the excitement on Elm St. Shelley’s office was just a few steps from the electrical panel. He admitted, on Day One, that he was by the elevator (which is not far from the electrical panels), probably because he knew he had been seen there. I also think the TSBD and at least some of the people who worked for it had Intelligence connections, but the evidence is pretty thin. Do you have stronger evidence?

That at least fits some of the known facts, but it sounds kind of unlikely to me. Can you really forget that kind of thing? Mr. Ernest did write (and tell John A. during their phone interview) that Ms. Adams seemed “uneasy” about the whole Shelley and Lovelady business, but if she was really pressured into the false sighting, why wasn’t she also pressured into delaying her flight down the stairs? That was the real problem, and that would have been a lot easier and cleaner than inventing the false sighting. This belated correction also doesn’t explain who the two white men were by the elevators and electric panels who were seen but unchallenged by Baker. If they weren’t TSBD employees OK’d by Truly, why didn’t Baker challenge them? Clearly, the WC attorneys didn’t want to know who they were because they didn’t ask Truly to ID them.