Jim Hargrove

Bart Kamp.... I'd like to believe that PrayerSmudge was really LHO. It would prove the Warren Commission was completely wrong. Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO. You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it. Just askin.....

Fair enough, Michael. I'll try to tone it down.... But I have to ask. Are you absolutely convinced that PrayerSmudge is LHO?

To Bart Kamp.... I have to confess that I've been barely paying attention here, but I'm trying to take a little interest.... Just to begin a potential discussion with a bit of clarity, is it your position that the blurry image I'm going to call PrayerSmudge shows--without a doubt--the young man killed by Jack Ruby in Dallas in November 1963 standing on the steps of the Dallas Book Depository at the time of JFK's murder?

From Brian Doyle .... At 5:42 of the interview, Rosa, Sarah's daughter in law, reverts to her pure memory and mentions Sarah saying to Oswald "Are you going UP to lunch?"...Oswald responds "No, I'm going back in my room"...Seeing how Sarah encountered Oswald by the lunch room door it makes sense that Oswald went back into the lunch room where Carolyn Arnold witnessed him shortly after...What people don't know is Wanda, the grand daughter, told me she thought Sarah said she saw Oswald in a break room...That break room was obviously the 2nd floor lunch room... If Kamp would simply juxtapose Sarah's chubby forearm in the family photo with his blow-up of Prayer Man's forearm we would see they are a forensic match...The large hand is also match...In fact, the entire chubby forearm would be apparent in Darnell if the corner of Sarah's purse were not jutting in front of the wrist section...Jim DiEugenio has already posted that when he first saw the Prayer Man image he thought the person was too stocky to be Oswald... Frazier's 2013 video interview makes it more than clear Sarah is looking at him when Calvery reached the steps...One look at Darnell shows Frazier and Prayer Man looking at and focused on each other with Prayer Man having Sarah's chubby features and being her precise 5 foot 5 height... After reviewing my interview with Stanton's relatives I realized Sarah had colored her story by assuming the authorities were correct and Oswald went upstairs to the Sniper's Nest after she met him...That's where the "upstairs" part repeated by the relatives came from...A more sterile view of Sarah's experience would show she had no idea where Oswald went after she left him at the 2nd floor staircase landing...Carolyn Arnold tells us where Oswald went after encountering Sarah... I assume most responsible JFK assassination evidence analysts would immediately consider how Stanton's witnessed Coke relates to Baker's crossed-out Coke...Or Jeraldean Reid's...

This is an interesting point. Written, of course, without any information from Sarah Stanton's family, JA included this in Harvey and Lee: The Warren Commission concluded that after firing at President Kennedy oneman, "Lee Harvey Oswald," ran down the rear stairs to the 2nd floor and entered thelunchroom. After being confronted by Truly and Baker (wearing a brown shirt) Oswaldpurchased a Coke, left the lunchroom, entered the TSBD office, walked past Mrs. Rob­-ert Reid with the Coke in hand (wearing a white t-shirt), through the TSBD office on the2nd floor, down the front stairs, through the foyer, out the building, and then walked 7blocks east on Elm Street before boarding a city bus (wearing a long sleeved brown shirtand carrying a grey jacket). In order to reach this conclusion the Commission had to over­-come the following contradictions:1) (Harvey) Oswald purchased a Coke shortly after noon before returning to the1st floor to eat lunch, yet he (Lee Oswald) was seen carrying a full bottle ofCoke at 12:32 pm. This would have been (Harvey) Oswald's second Coke within ahalf hour.2) (Harvey) Oswald did not have a Coke when seen by Baker and Truly, yet(Lee) Oswald had a full bottle of Coke when seen by Mrs. Reid only momentslater. When (Harvey) was seen by the reporters in the lobby of the TSBD hedid not have a bottle of Coke.3) Neither Baker, Truly, nor Mrs. Reid saw (Lee) Oswald carry a grey work jacketduring or after he was seen in the lunchroom, yet he (Harvey Oswald) was seenon the city bus wearing a grey work jacket.4) (Harvey) Oswald was seen wearing a brown shirt in the lunchroom, a white t-shirt in the TSBD office (Lee), and a brown shirt and grey jacket on a city bus(Harvey).The above sequence of events was simply not possible with one person. The "Coke problem" SA James Hosty's notes from Harvey Oswald's interrogation on November 22 at3:15 pm reflect that he bought a Coke before he ate lunch in the domino room on the1st floor. Hosty's notes read, "At noon went to lunch ..... went to 2nd floor to get coco­-cola to eat with lunch and returned to 1st floor to eat lunch." Hosty's notes do not reflectthat Oswald purchased a 2nd coke after being confronted by Officer Baker and Roy Troly in the2nd floor lunchroom at 12:32 pm.The following day Hosty wrote a report that contradicted his notes. SA Hostyreported, "Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimedhe ate his lunch on the first floor lunchroom; however he went to the second floor wherethe Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch."116Hosty 's carefully worded report made it appear as though Oswald purchased a Coke but neverreturned to the 1st floor. NOTE: Oswald's account of his activities as told to Captain Fritz was probably accu­- rate. Before noon he was on the 5th floor when co-workers Jarman, Norman, and Wil-­ liams rode the elevator to the 1st floor. Williams returned to the 6th floor to eat his lunch while Norman ate lunch in the domino room and Jarman ate a sandwich while walk­- ing around the 1st floor. Eddie Piper saw Oswald on the 1st floor at 12:00 noon standing near the windows overlooking Elm Street. Oswald probably went to the 2nd floor, bought a Coke, and returned to the domino room where he ate lunch with the "short man" (Norman). A few minutes later Norman left the domino room to accompany Jarman outside to watch the motorcade. Oswald was next seen in the lunchroom on the 2nd floor at 12:25 by Carolyn Arnold and was then confronted at 12:32 pm by Officer Baker and Roy Truly. SA Hosty's notes reflect that he, SA James Bookhout, and Captain Fritz werepresent during the interview with Oswald. When SA Bookhout wrote his report onNovember 25 (allegedly reflecting Captain Fritz's interview of Oswald on November22 at 3:15 pm), it differed from Hosty's notes and Hosty's report. Bookhout wrote, "Hewas on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-Cola from thesoft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawnand asked him if he worked there."117 Bookhout's report made it appear as though Oswaldpurchased the Coke before he was confronted by Baker and Truly.The Commission resolved the problem of when Oswald purchased the coke by conclud­-ing, "He presumably purchased (the Coke) after the encounter with Baker and Truly."118 --from Harvey and Lee, pp. 815-816, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong. All Rights Reserved.

More likely is that the FBI just altered her testimony, as was done in so many other instances. For example, the short (3 minute) YouTube video below demonstrates quite clearly how the FBI altered the observations of three critical Dealey Plaza witnesses who believed shots may have been taken at JFK from outside of the Texas School Book Depository, thus contradicting the official story. Apparently, Sarah Stanton also contradicted the official story. The FBI went to extraordinary lengths to suppress evidence of what CIA accountant James Wilcott called the “Oswald Project,” including sending out agents within hours of the assassination to confiscate original school and teen-aged employment records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” In the wee hours of the night of Nov 22-23, 1963, the FBI secretly took “Oswald's Possessions” from the Dallas Police Department, transported them to Washington, D.C. altered them, and then secretly returned them to Dallas, only to publicly send them to Washington. D.C. a few days later. Among a great many other alterations, a Minox “spy camera” became a Minox “light meter.” Tax records, not found by Dallas police who said they initialed each scrap of paper, magically appeared without DPD initials. FBI agent James Cadigan inadvertently spilled the bean about the secret transfer during his sworn WC testimony, which was altered by the WC. The FBI falsified so much testimony that it even had a process in place for routinely doing so, including over the objections of Warren Commission attorneys.

I hope this is my one and only comment on PrayerMan, but I don’t see how your measurements rule out Sarah Stanton as PrayerMan. The fuzzy figure could be leaning back against the building for support, which wouldn’t be unusual for such a heavy woman. To me, the forearms look pretty thick, as you would expect Stanton’s to be. I hope to never make another comment about who FuzzyPerson was, because I have no idea, but I am not convinced by anyone's arguments.

Andrej, Megathanks for taking the time to create this outline of Mr. Doyle’s interview with Sarah Stanton’s family members. Anyone willing to take time out from the endless PrayerMan squabbles can see the significance of these recollections. Although clearly hearsay, it is yet another indication that, shortly before the assassination of JFK, “Lee Harvey Oswald” was not on the sixth floor of the building preparing to fire a Magic Bullet from a Magic Carcano at JFK. How sad that so few people in this thread seem much interested in that.

Again, I have no horse in the PrayerMan race. I think the images are too fuzzy to say anything on the basis of the graphics alone. But the issue of whether Sarah Stanton saw Oswald carrying a Coke or soda pop inside the TSBD just prior to the hit is an important one, and this interview discusses that with Sarah Stanton’s granddaughter and daughter-in-law.

Bart, Frankly, I could care less about how much of a bully you are. To me, PrayerMan is nothing but a blurry Rorschach test, way too obscure to say anything serious about the assassination of JFK. I do, however, think that the man I know as troppocrat@aol.com is a SERIOUS JFK researcher, and you do strike me as a BULLY. Perhaps I'm wrong, but here are a few of the messages troppocrat@aol.com has sent me about you.... Jim: The link I am attaching is the reason why I had you post what I sent you... In it Bart Kamp ignores all the detailed evidence I provided while picking a random individual on the steps and labeling her Stanton... Kamp ignores a multitude of evidence...But what he ignores the most is Frazier's comments in the video I had you post...That is why I had you post it because it forces the Prayer Man people to answer it...Kamp flagrantly ignores the fact that Frazier emphasized he and Stanton were deep into the shadows...Not only does Kamp choose a person who was in the opposite direction of Frazier and well behind him, but he ignores the fact that the person he randomly selects is way out in direct sunlight and therefore cannot be deep in the shadows as Frazier described Stanton as being... Kamp is lying when he says there is no substantiation of any of this...What he flagrantly ignores and desperately tries to get around with these silly offerings says more than anything to credible people...Kamp insults the membership by offering a juvenile one-line response to all of this complex detailed evidence...He's clearly trying to keep information he is aware refutes him from the forum and is therefore working against the rules and interests of the Education Forum and its membership...I think we know who the "faker" is... No one points this out on the forum: http://www.prayer-man.com/pauline-sanders-and-sarah-stanton-in-darnell/ Jim, I'm sure you've had your fill of the Prayer Man crap but I read the latest entries by Stancak and they are incredible efforts at Rube Goldberg pseudo-analysis...Because the Education Forum has been trimmed down to only pro-Murphy posters no one takes a deserved wack at Stancak's pinata of ridiculous pseudo-science he tries to pass off as research... He calls the obviously short Sarah Stanton "a tall woman" and then tries to pass off her son Larry as being 6 foot tall...I eyed Prayer Man as being 5 foot 5 from my analyses of the Prayer Man evidence over the years...Stanton's relatives confirmed she was 5 foot 5...I now say Stanton's son seen in the family photo the Education Forum finally managed to post is about 5 foot 10 or so...Stancak is making him 6 foot and directly comparable to Frazier...The Education Forum allows Stancak to run uncontrolled like a kid in a sandbox... To keep it short if Stancak simply bothered to read what I've posted on my Prayer Woman page and elsewhere he would see I have established firm photogrammetric proof in the form of Prayer Man's height, thick forearm, hips, and the timing of Calvery reaching the steps vs Frazier's saying he was talking to Sarah...If you'll notice Stancak omits all of these when he references the image that was connected to them... .... It is amazing that the community would not be interested in the seriously important new story about Stanton seeing Oswald with a soda and its significance all because of a petty need to hang on to that Prayer Man BS... .... DiEugenio asked Kamp where he thought Stanton was and Kamp replied on the east side of the steps...No one on the Prayer Man-dominated Education Forum mentions that Stanton testified that she couldn't see the limousine at the time of the shots - which would put her on the west side right where Prayer Man was blocked from seeing the limo by the west wall...Really credible forum .... No one mentions to Andrej that Frazier was very specific in his detailing that he and Sarah were deep in to the shadows on the landing...If they were deep in to the shadows then they were far back on the landing and therefore had both feet on the landing...Once you show Prayer Man had both feet on the landing then you can say with certainty that "he" is 5 foot 5 in height when compared to Frazier and therefore too short to be Oswald...Gordon has allowed Andrej and Kamp to be the only voices on the issue...Therefore they are being shielded from answering these correct points... What Andrej does is seize the narrative by asking numerous questions...By doing so he avoids answering evidence like I am citing here...Andrej is assisted by Gordon in avoiding answering that Stanton's daughter told me Sarah was 5 foot 5... Stancak listed "Tiny Woman" (Pauline Sanders) as being 5 foot tall...Stancak knew he had a problem because that excluded Tiny Woman from being the 5 foot 5 Stanton...Which meant he now had to find Stanton out on the landing and identify her...Only he couldn't do it...The recent family photo of Stanton sent to me by her grand daughter shows Stanton to be quite wide in body size...She would obviously be hard to conceal on the landing due to her size...Stancak couldn't locate Stanton so what he did was translate a glimpse of Pauline Sanders' face seen behind Lovelady in Altgens in to an imaginary Sarah Stanton he then inserted in to Darnell...This new imaginary Stanton was created out of thin air by Stancak because he knew the evidence needed him to come up with a non-Prayer Man Stanton...The community let him get away with this rogue fabrication...Stancak ignored that Prayer Man was the exact 5 foot 5 listed as Stanton's height...He also ignored the wide hips seen on Prayer Man that matched Stanton's... Another thing Kamp and Stancak avoid with their aggressive so-called demands for evidence is that Shelley & Lovelady spoke to Calvery at the base of the steps before taking off up the Elm St extension...Since the Couch/Darnell clip shows Shelley & Lovelady well on their way up the extension, that means Calvery has already conveyed her information that the president had been shot to the occupants of the steps...Which makes you realize the timing is then established for Frazier and Sarah hearing Calvery's saying that...It then becomes undeniable that the Couch/Darnell sequence is at a time period where Frazier has to already be in to the process of communicating Calvary's information to Sarah...One look at the clip shows Frazier and Prayer Man focused on each other and directly looking at each other...This forces the conclusion that Frazier is speaking to "Sarah" at this moment, as he makes clear in the video... I have never seen any Prayer Man supporter answer this and Gordon seems intent at not asking them...This is really a matter of credible moderation at this point... Why the hate? - Because Kamp is trying to pre-empt having to answer what he already knows to be true... I'm asking again, Bart. Where does all your HATE come from?

Good grief! Regardless of the facts of where Sarah Stanton was standing on the TSBD stairs... Where does all your HATE come from? Can we not even discuss this politely?

Buell Frazier, in the YouTube video below, says he was standing next to Sarah Stanton on the Depository steps. The sequence begins at the 40:52 mark.

A trusted correspondent has told me that Sarah Stanton’s daughter-in-law is confirming on Facebook that her mother-in-law saw LHO “by the stairs” before she went outside to watch the motorcade. Here’s what the correspondent wrote: Yesterday Sarah Stanton's daughter in law confirmed that her mother in law regularly told family members of meeting Lee Harvey Oswald "by the stairs" prior to Stanton's going out to watch the motorcade... The daughter in law said Sarah said Oswald had a soda... Sarah asked Oswald "Are you going to eat lunch?"...Oswald replied "No, just a soda"... Sarah then went out to watch the motorcade... Though this doesn't place Oswald in the lunch room directly it bears hints that the encounter happened by the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunch room...Stanton was a 2nd floor office employee so it makes sense that she encountered Oswald by the 2nd floor lunch room...It makes sense to me that by logic Stanton asked Oswald if he was going to eat lunch because he was standing on the 2nd floor stairway landing by the door to the lunch room...I think the daughter in law mentioned Sarah seeing Oswald in a "break room" so I assume this was the lunch room since the only other break room was the Domino Room far from the stairs in the Northeast corner of the Depository...I assume Stanton would have no reason to go to the workers break room since she was an office worker and the Domino Room was not near any stairs...In any case why would Stanton ask Oswald if he was going to lunch if he was just standing "by the stairs" with a soda? It makes sense to me that Stanton saw Oswald by the vestibule to the 2nd floor lunch room near the same place that Carolyn Arnold saw him.... Logic dictates Oswald bought the soda in the lunch room.... This is serious new evidence that corroborates Oswald being seen in the 2nd floor lunch room just before, as well as just after, the assassination...It also evidences Oswald having a soda, which means he was set up eating lunch in the 2nd floor lunch room and was probably there during the assassination... Debra Conway gave it a "like" on her Facebook page...Robert Groden told me "You really have something there"...

I saw that, but in this case the false defector and the man killed by Ruby were one and the same... Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald. The difficulty in analyzing "Oswald" is that the summation can only come from hundreds or thousands of little details... hard to remember all at once. At a JFK conference during which both John Newman and John Armstrong spoke in the late 1990s, I talked briefly with Dr. Newman about Armstrong's Harvey and Lee analysis, publicly first presented just a year or two earlier. Dr. Newman only said that the official biography of "Oswald," especially his early years, had never been looked at critically before and that it was fascinating. I suppose it is just one more minor detail, but I'm absolutely stunned that so few researchers find interesting the fact that just hours after he allegedly took LHO's wallet from him, DPD Det. Paul Bentley said on WFAA-TV that he thought the wallet contained a driver's license and credit cards! Nothing to think about there, eh?

What’s so surprising about the Post article is that, as we all know, the MSM seems to speak with one voice about the 1960s assassinations, always towing the company line. One possible explanation is most reporters’ failure to consider the legitimacy of so much of the evidence now in the National Archives. For example, if you believe LHO used the Magic Money Order to pay for the Magic Carcano that shot the Magic Bullet, then you are halfway home to believing the Warren Commission’s findings. Examining the evidence in detail is not going to happen for most Americans, sadly including most news professionals. What this doesn’t explain is most Americans’ visceral rejection of the Official Story, at least in the JFK case. It just stinks to high heaven, and we’ve had more than half a century to smell it.

Dan, John would agree with most of the names on your list, with the notable exception of Marina Oswald. I suspect every effort was made to keep her unaware of the other LHO. A couple of years ago, John replied directly to questions of who knew about the "Oswald plot," let's call it, and made it pretty clear who he thought knew about the two LHOs even if they were unaware of the assassination conspiracy. Here's a link to the list: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=361688 Also, back to the subject of this thread, DPD Detective Paul Bentley, who supposedly took the wallet from Oswald, gave a WFAA-TV interview the day after the assassination (while Harvey Oswald was still alive) and said that he thought there was a driver's license in Oswald's wallet. He makes the assertion at the 9-minute mark of the video below:

"That wallet was in (Captain) Westbrook’s hand.” http://jfkfacts.org/oswalds-wallet-planted-at-the-tippit-crime-scene/

Paul, From the chart above.... Cliff Shasteen was American-born LEE Oswald's barber in Texas, who cut his hair on numerous occasions in 1963 while Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald and family were still living in New Orleans. Shasteen testified at length to the Warren Commission, and if you know the official "Oswald" timeline, his testimony explains almost everything. Shasteen told both the FBI and Warren Commission that Oswald drove Ruth Paine's station wagon to his barber shop and he watched him cross the street and enter Leonard Hutchison's grocery store. Shasteen said, "He (Lee Oswald) drove that there 1955, I think it's a 1955, I'm sure it's a 1955 Chevrolet station wagon. It's either blue and white or green and white--it's two toned--I know that." Shasteen observed this remembering the summer of 1963, when HARVEY Oswald and family were still living in New Orleans. Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth were at the Furniture Mart in Irving, TX (near Dallas) when "Oswald" and his entire "family" approached them looking for gun parts in 1963. Whitworth sent him to Dial Ryder's gun shop. Both Hunter and Whitworth testified to the Warren Commission, and the WC actually brought Hunter, Whitworth and Marina Oswald together to determine whether "Oswald" could drive a car. In my opinion, it was the WC's boldest attempt to find the truth about Oswald in this whole sordid case. FBI agent Bob Barrett saw the American-born Oswald's driver's license at 10th & Patton immediately after the Tippit murder. This info is widely available on the Internet. Leo Sepulveda is one of the many witnesses who said he saw LEE Oswald in Alice, Texas on October 4th, 1963. His co-worker M.E. Pope remembered that the young man both of them saw gave his name as "Oswald" and listed his Marine Corps service on his employment application. Pope described Oswald as 30 years old, 5-foot-8, about 150 lbs, and recalled that his wife waited for him in an old Plymouth or Chevrolet sedan. After the assassination both Sepulveda and Pope said the man accused of assassinating President Kennedy was the same man they saw in Alice, Texas on October 4, 1963. If you're interested, I'd be happy to discuss other people on the chart above who knew American-born LEE Oswald could drive a car.

From the H&L website: PEOPLE WHO HAD KNOWLEDGE THAT LEE COULD DRIVE Cliff Shasteen Joyce Bostic Leonard Hutchison Inez Laake Fred Moore (saw driver's license) Gayle Scott Malcolm Price Peggy Smith Floyd Guy Davis Mrs. Ernie Isaacs Gertrude Hunter Margaret Budreau Edith Whitworth Clifford Wormser Red Pope FBI Agent Bob Barrett (saw driver's license) Leo Sepulveda DPD Captain Westbrook (saw driver's license) Sonny Stewart Edward Brand Robert Janca Garland Slack Robert Roy William J. Chesher Al Bogard Howard Price W.M. Hannie Sterling Wood Mrs. Lee Bozarth (handled Oswald's driver's license) Dr. Homer Wood Aletha Frair (held Oswald's driver's license) Randy Sundy

Thanks to Richard Price for pointing out this fascinating video. How many times does a man have to be impersonated before you begin to wonder if there is a simpler explanation? Just to point out the obvious.... Lots of other people knew about one of the Lee Harvey Oswalds' valid Texas driver's license. See.... THE MAN WHO COULD--AND COULDN'T--DRIVE

Violinist Paul Krassner, who according to Wikipedia is STILL at age 6 the youngest human being ever to have played solo at Carnegie Hall, had this to say nearly three decades ago via Paul Kangas....

Thank you, Paul. My buddy John convinced me decades ago that this was basically a CIA officer’s plot to provoke a U.S. invasion of Cuba. But I‘ve always felt there was some military complicity, though hard evidence is sure hard to find. I’ve read about the 488th MI Detachment and Jack Cricthon before, and I’ll look at it again. Crichton was the apparent outsider who set up Ilya Mamantov as Marina's "interpreter," whether she really needed one or not. Crichton, Bush, and Charles Cabel were probably involved in setting up the CIA's Cuban invasion army. As you suggest, there is a lot of smoke here.

Sounds reasonable to me, but he does have one of my favorite lines in this whole field which goes, if memory serves, something like this:

Thank you, Linda, for updating this information. I've asked JA to help me update the H&L website with the latest and most complete data available on James and Elsie Wilcott. My guess is that he'll be more than happy to do so and that the new information should be up within a few days.

So few things are simple in this case, and it seems as if Gary Murr took as hard a look at this particular story as is humanly possible.The general topic of the jail sightings was apparently discussed here pretty thoroughly in 2005. The following post by Ron Ecker was particularly interesting, I thought. The described FBI report (which I didn't turn up in a brief search) apparently indicates that the "sniper's nest" window was visible from at least some windows in the fifth floor of the jail, but the sixth floor jail windows weren't discussed, at least in the summary.