Andrej Stancak

36 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The fact that trap doors on many modern elevators are locked from the outside does not mean that the TSBD elevator's was in 1963.  Even if it was, it is only a matter of unlocking it prior to the event(s) to make it accessible. 

Jim:

It is for you and John to show that the TSBD passenger elevator (made in 1961) had a trap door open and ready for an easy access. Elevators 1961 were already modern elevators looking similar to many elevators we use in the buildings made 1970-1990. These elevators have neat cabins with trap door locked from the outside and not visible to the passengers, and not accessible from the inside of the car without stepping on something.  What type was this passenger elevator- Otis, Krone, Westinghouse? If we knew, we could find such an elevator in companies archives or they may even be in use somewhere. The onus to know these facts is on you, not on the reader.

Thinking that the trap door was opened prior to assassination is another speculation which would need to be proven. But even if this would be the case, you have not explained how a man standing alone on the platform can squeeze himself without any support through the trap door to ascend to the shaft. The roof on every old lift I saw is well and neatly covered - how would it be possible to open and then close it in the short time and without causing noise? When would it happen? Would it be already 15 minutes before the shooting which was the time when Arnold Rowland saw two men on the sixth floor? Why would employees avoid using the passenger lift such a long time before the motorcade arrival? Was the electricity already off 15 minutes prior to shooting so that the two assassins could work on the top deck to get to the shaft?

On 3/2/2019 at 4:10 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

It seems that the emergency trap door on the top of the car is not accessible to people in the lift - it is for rescuers, not for the passengers to rescue themselves. 

This is what I found on the Imminent Threat Solution website:  

"As mentioned previously, the emergency exit hatch at the top of the elevator is more than likely locked from the outside, as required by law. You may not even be able to reach this unless there’s another person in the elevator to help you, or a railing to stand on." https://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/escape-and-evasion-skillcom/elevator-action-how-to-escape-being-trapped-in-an-elevator/

Late edit: The reason why elevator exit hatch can only be open from outside using a special key is that if there is a technical problem then to be inside a car itself is the safest option for the passengers. The hazard of falling or being injured by the lift which can start moving abruptly or by objects in the shaft is extreme.

 

Bumped for Jim.

I am of the view that the whole escape theory is impossible owing to the trap door problem (although there is a number of problems with witness testimonies as well). Contrary to what John Armstrong and you try to suggest, the exit hatch cannot be open from the inside of an elevator. The safety exit door on the top of the lift can only be open from outside using a special key which only firearm staff or lift maintenance have. The inner roof of every lift is neatly covered and usually holds a light. It is a major technical operation to open the roof of a lift and it is meant as the final rescue solution. 

In a way, I feel sorry for John who put a lot of effort into pursuing the vent shaft escape scenario, and I learned a lot from this case - it can happen to everyone strongly believing in something.  My advice would be to withdraw the article describing the escape route using the passenger lift because it damages John's reputation. 

Thanks, Jim. Your theory makes me explore the lifts. Of course, I am not an expert and can only rely on information acquired by searching through the Internet.

It seems that the emergency trap door on the top of the car is not accessible to people in the lift - it is for rescuers, not for the passengers to rescue themselves. 

This is what I found on the Imminent Threat Solution website:  

"As mentioned previously, the emergency exit hatch at the top of the elevator is more than likely locked from the outside, as required by law. You may not even be able to reach this unless there’s another person in the elevator to help you, or a railing to stand on." https://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/escape-and-evasion-skillcom/elevator-action-how-to-escape-being-trapped-in-an-elevator/

Late edit: The reason why elevator exit hatch can only be open from outside using a special key is that if there is a technical problem then to be inside a car itself is the safest option for the passengers. The hazard of falling or being injured by the lift  which can start moving abruptly or by objects in the shaft is extreme.

Can anyone help me with what appears to be a triviality but what puzzles me a great deal:

John believes that the two assassins used the passenger lift both for getting to the sixth floor (allegedly, this was easy) and for escaping. I checked some youtube videos proudly showing lifts made in 1960'. All lift cars I saw had a neat ceiling with a cover in their interior. Of course, the ceiling cover could be dismounted if needed, however, this would not go without using instruments or damaging the top deck of the car. It would require time and some work to free the exit from the car. So, how the assassins got out from the lift car? They had to unscrew the top deck, and then one by one squeeze themselves through the opening on the top. The first going man had it easy because the second man still standing in the car could help. However, the second man would just not get out as there was no one who could lift him. How much noise would it cause? The fourth floor was pretty much packed with ladies  (about 7-8 of them) who chose to watch the motorcade from their office. One side of the lift box was a part of their office, so they would hear some noise causes by the assassins as they were working on the top deck to free the opening, and by climbing up to the fifth floor. There was apparently a ladder above the car in the shaft connecting the fifth and sixth floor. Still, how could they free the boards and remove the piles of books which exerted a weight upon the boards? How much time would it take to create the opening on the sixth floor and why e.g., Bonnie Ray Williams did not hear or see them? I gather only one man using only one hand could work at that stage because he would be standing on a narrow ladder and holding himself with one hand on the ladder.

The problems were not smaller on their return. One by one they would have to jump from the top of the car into the lift car (some 7 feet height). That would occur on the fourth floor. Another big noise when the second man would jump onto the platform of the lift. How comes that no one heard the two loud jumps? Then they needed to mount the top back, possibly using a screwdriver. However, the white-shirt assassin needed to be in the second floor lunchroom before Baker and Truly got to the lunchroom as they saw (90 seconds after the last shot) Oswald wearing a brown shirt (it was light red, however, this is a different story). Thus, the lift had to move down from the fourth floor to the second floor right away without spending any time on mounting back the top deck. The car allegedly stayed on the second floor at that moment and one assassin remained in the car.   Could he alone mount the top deck without any help? There were already people on the second floor (Mrs. Hine, Mrs. Reid, Mr. Williams, Mr. Campbell, Mrs. Stanton) and how comes they did not see/hear any noise coming from the lift as the poor assassin was trying to fix the top deck of the lift?

There is also a problem with the movements of both the white- and brown-shirt Oswald. The white-shirt Oswald got to the second floor lunchroom before Truly and Baker reached the second floor, he had to buy a Coke and move from the back of the second floor to the front of that floor. This is what Mrs. Reid saw after she returned to her office about 2 minutes after the last shot - Oswald holding a Coke was walking from the lunchroom to the stairs in the front of the second floor. The timing does not seem to hold because Mrs. Reid came to her place with other workers in one batch only after Baker and Truly allegedly accosted Oswald in the lunchroom.  Further, the white-shirt Oswald would not leave via back stairs but via the front stairs. An even more puzzling thing is that the brown-shirt Oswald did not need any Coke because he was seen and asked about where he was going by Mrs. Stanton minutes (around 12.20) before the shooting, and this brown-shirt Oswald said he was going to buy a Coke for his lunch. So, only one Oswald could possibly go to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke, and it could only be the white-shirt Oswald. However, Baker said the man he had seen had a brown jacket on himself.

Jim:

Sawyer did not say that the lift has just landed and the man who exited the lift advised them. Instead, he said the lift was there when he arrived and they run into that man. That man appeared to have stood in front of the lift door and advised the officers before they entered the lift, and it could have been a Depository employee as Sawyer believed. So, that man could stand there when Sawyer arrived, and they "run into him". Does this sound plausible?

Paul:

The testimony of Inspector Sawyer does not say that the man who stood in the vicinity of the passenger lift and advised them was just exiting the lift. The lift apparently was stationary on the first floor as they approached the lift. The man in question may have stood right in front of the lift and he appeared to be an employee.  Both Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were back in the building after first going about 100 yards in direction of the railroad yard; they came back in 3-4 minutes which was just before Sawyer entered the building after having a brief chat with some officers there. Both Shelley and Lovelady testified that they had stood at lift doors (not clear whether the passenger or freight lifts) and helped officers to get to higher floors.

It is all about the interpretation of these statements:

"We got into the elevator. We run into this man" 

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? 
Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. 

I wonder if the man whom Marrion Baker had seen on the 3rd or 4th floor, according to his very first report, could take the front elevator to get to the first floor. People remained in the offices during the assassination and some of them could decide to go down, in which case the passenger elevator would have been an option.

According to this escape theory, two men got to the elevator and one of the men was in the 2nd-floor lunchroom about a 1 minute after the shooting.. This would mean that the other man had to stay in the elevator while the elevator remained motionless for 3  more minutes without anyone wanting to use it. Is this likely? 

All right, I leave it here. Thanks for bringing on this interesting topic.

I was trying to find out if there is any chance to get to the architectonic plans of the building at the time of two reconstructions (1961 and 1981), however, this would require an effort which I cannot invest at the momenent. I would like to know the details of the lift construction and how any lift-related objects the 5th and 6th floor looked like. In some countries, every building undergoing a major reconstruction has to have the plans approved by he city's building commission and the  building plans are archived with the project applications. I would hope that the City of Dallas would have the architectonical plans of TSBD in their archives. Even the Sixth Floor Museum could have such plans.

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Again, it seems to me that the fact Baker didn’t challenge these two white men or at least get ID’s from them suggests someone (who else but Truly?) must have vouched for them.

Baker would not be expected to recognize TSBD employees.  But Truly certainly should have, and yet the WC did not ask Truly to identify these two white men.  Why no

Jim:

the Warren Commission does contain inaccuracies such as the alleged sighting of two white men on the first floor by Officer Baker. An example: Billy Lovelady told the Warren Commission he had stood on the top landing (when photographed by Altgens). In reality, he stood one step below the top landing. Lovelady may not have remembered well, it could be an innocent mistake.

With Baker's testimony, the fact that the Commission did not ask who these two white men were only meant that these were actually two Afro-American gentlemen, Troy West and Eddie Piper. This is the reason why it was not followed up. How it got changed to white men, I do not know. It could have been an honest error or it was an attempt to support the possibility of Vicki Adams seeing Shelley and Lovelady which she denied. Neither Sandra Styles nor Vicki Adams ever approved your version of events in which Shelley and Lovelady were in the back of the first floor before Baker and Truly. 

You seem to arbitrarily select which parts of Warren Commission testimonies you believe and which not. So, according to John and yourself, Baker' white men and Vicki Adams' Shelley and Lovelady in the back of the first floor within a minute were true events. However, since Shelley' and Lovelady's Warren Commission testimonies do not fit your theory, you choose not to believe them and this is how you make your theory possible. 

While it continues to boggle my mind that you question Vicki Adams's story as described in Barry Ernest's book, we also have an interview with Buell Frazier.

Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast. Frazier confirms Shelley's and Lovelady's statements for the Warren Commission.

The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s:

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?

Mr. Frazier: (pause) I did. This was all... I do not know how many minutes later … (noisy recording), but the lady I stand next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady came by, a woman came by, she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President".

Of course, there is also Darnell film showing a person wearing a tie and suit (the only person in the doorway wearing a suit and a tie was Shelley), being of Shelley's body height and standing at the location he occupied in Wiegman and Altgens, and himself saying that he did not do anything for about a minute (= he stood where he stood earlier), however, since the picture is blurry, he could not stand there, could he? 

John: 

I am not sure, Tony may be right. It can be the east-north corner of the building we view in which case the critical second east window is not seen in this picture.

The image of the sixth floor shown by John is most likely the south-east view with the second east window in view. The arched type of the windows we see in John's picture was only on the sixth floor south wall, not on the north side.

Frankly, I see nothing like a ventilation opening on the sixth floor. It is neither in the images showing the arrangement of boxes after the shooting nor in the open view of the sixth window shown by John. Moreover, it is not drawn in the floor map of the sixth floor. It should have been drawn in the floor map if this was the only access to the lift machinery sitting on the fifth floor. If it served air flow, why would it be covered with rows of books? Who placed them back on the ventilation hole when the two alleged assassins were already inside the fifth-floor box and could not do it themselves?

It may be worthy to contact the living witnesses (Mr. Lewis, Mr. Frazier?) to learn more about the technical aspects of the passenger elevator. There may be more documentation about the building in the municipal archives or in the holdings of the Sixth Floor Museum. 

I am puzzled by the drawing of the fifth-floor map which says no opening on the lift box on that floor. The building was a five-story building in 1895, and the lift machinery was located on the fifth floor. This entailed the wheel and the engine because it was a traction lift. I guess there should be some access to the lift mechanism from the fifth floor for maintenance purposes. It would not be practical to have the only access through a comparatively small opening from the floor above. 

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

Thanks for clarifying your position on this issue. I now understand your objection to that one post of mine. Though the impression the post might have left was unintentional on my part.

 

Sandy:

I think we understand Vicki Adams' s story the same way, and it is a pleasure for me to be on the same boat with you if not on all then at least on this point.

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I suspect the two unidentified white men seen but unidentified and unchallenged by Baker

Jim:

The two white men: did you consider a mistake by Baker in saying they were white? No one else but Baker mentioned the presence of two white men in the back of the building that soon after the shooting. Eddie Piper and Troy West, to my knowledge, were the two men staying on the first floor during the shooting. One of them was seen by Vicki Adams as she reached the first floor. It would be strange if Truly would see two unknown white men in his building just after the shooting, and Baker and Truly would just pass them and not even ask who they were.  Eddie Piper confirmed seeing Truly and another man as they got to the building. If one of the men was sitting there (according to Baker), this man could hardly be an assassin - such a man would use any opportunity to leave the building.

Late edit: I start to understand the difference between your and my interpretation of the two white men. In my view, the illogical reference to two white men in the first floor during the moments when Truly and Baker reached the back of the first floor is either an innocent mistake (Baker should have said "black" instead of "white"), or more likely an attempt to further support Vicki Adams's falsely added statement about her meeting Shelley and Lovelady. This was in a desperate attempt to save the second-floor encounter between Baker and Oswald. Replacing "black" with "white" in Baker's testimony had the same purpose as adding Shelley and Lovelady to Vicki Adams' testimony. 

In your theory, Baker's reference to two white men was a reflection of a true course of events which Warren Commission was scared to reveal, namely that Shelley and Lovelady ran to the back of the first floor right after the shooting to manipulate the switches in the electrical box, and Vicki Adams saw them while they were there. As Warren Commission knew the truth about the 1st-floor escape route, they needed to cover it up and therefore, the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady were arranged in such a way that these two people were nowhere in the back of the building so early (1 minute) and their movements including going to the concrete island were concocted.

I should also say that all testimonies surrounding Oswald's movements were kept as hazy and unexplored as possible by the FBI, WC and Dallas Police.

Jim:

I recall reading John's article at least 2 years ago, and it looked to me the same when I enquired a couple of days ago. Mind that I did not have any intention to memorise every detail of John's article during my first reading and of every revision made between then and now. I certainly trust you if you say that Shelley+Lovelady part was added more recently.

The images are fuzzy but they show three people (Williams, Shelley, Stanton) there who stood at the same places as before. Only 30 seconds has elapsed from the last shot when Darnell film was captured. If you say that Shelley was not there on the top landing, then who would be the person standing in the middle of the cluster of three? It was someone of the height of Bill Shelley, he stood at his spot, it was about 10--20 seconds after Wiegman film. Of course, you can say that the images are fuzzy and claim that everyone lied (Adams by trying to distance herself from seeing Shelley and Lovelady, Shelley when he said he stood at his spot for a minute or so), however, images do not lie. They may be difficult to read, indeed.

Thanks for explaining to me your interesting theory. I remain unconvinced with Shelley and Lovelady part as I believe that they indeed went to the concrete island and then they returned back to the building about 3-4 minutes after the last shot, and this is not compatible with these two people colluding with the conspirators by switching on or off the mains in the building. This clearly is not a problem forJohn and yourself.

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In the 2/17/64 statement of Vickie Adams to DPD detective James Leavelle she also allegedly said that when she reached the bottom of the stairs, she saw “Mr. Shelley and another employee named Bill,” obviously a reference to Lovelady.

Jim: Leavelle visited Vickie Adams the night she had changed apartment to avoid being constantly harassed by the FBI/DPD who asked her always the same thing: how she got to the first floor and whom she saw. Vicki told no one the address of her new apartment. Leavelle used an unbelievable and unlikely explanation for his visit by saying that there was a fire in DPD and the files with testimonies were burnt, so he wanted to ask again. Vicki Adams did not sign Leavelle's report. So, yes, Vicki was an extraordinary threat to Warren Commission version of events in which Oswald had to get to the first floor before Baker and Truly came in to the second floor. This is why her testimony was altered, she was not given a chance to authorise it (she actually authorised the version which did not make it into the Warren Report). You should read Barry's book before writing your opinions. I read it twice, about a month ago for the second time.

I also read John's escape article. Actually, I read it about two years ago, and immediately saw the problem with Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady who were presented as co-conspirators. The way how the movements of these two men are presented in John's article is incorrect and if the theory hinges on this, then it is also the end of the first floor escape route.

To the pictures: Bill Shelley is the man in dark suit with a black/dark tie standing in the centre of the top landing in Altgens6. This man is also seen at this spot in Wiegman film (taken seconds after the last shot) and also in Darnell. With Darnell, the situation is a bit complicated because there are three persons standing at the center of the doorway create one large blob. Yet, I was able to reconstruct this blob, and can provide step by step explanation of how I achieved this solution. Bill Shelley is the person delineated by blue contour lines in (D). Darnell film was captured about 30 s after the final shot.

To recall: 

Mr. Ball.

What happened; what did you do then?

Mr. Shelley.

I didn't do anything for a minute.

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Fair enough, Andrej.  Let’s discuss this.

Do you believe there was a shooter--anyone--on the 6th floor of the TSBD?  

If so, how did that shooter escape unseen?

The front staircase led only to the basement and the second floor; it did not reach the sixth floor. 

The passenger elevator rose only to the fourth floor.

The outdoor fire escape was visible to the throngs of people outside.

The two rear freight elevators had open sides and the occupants could be seen easily during the very slow ride down.

That leaves the rear staircase, and Vickie Adams, Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner, followed by Baker and Truly, effectively sealed off the possibility of an escape by that route.

So how do you think the shooter(s) got down from the sixth floor?

Jim:

I do not know if there was any shooting from the sixth floor, it may well be that the shots came from the Daltex building nearby. I sincerely do not know and am therefore not proposing my view of how any assassins had escaped from the sixth floor.  If I once have a theory, I will phrase it and post it for people to comment on it.

However, John and yourself have a theory and you brought it here (thank you for this), therefore, we are discussing your theory. Your theory entails several speculations of which all needed to be true for your escape theory to be true. I questioned some of the points. Since  I am involved in the reconstructions of the doorway scenes and am familiar with witness testimonies, books and photographic evidence pertaining the doorway, I immediately spotted the problem with your escape route theory in assuming that Bill Shelley was a co-conspirator who was there right after the shooting to pull the power switch allowing the first floor lift to depart from the fourth floor. Only, that he was not there. You repeatedly point to the Warren Commission testimony of Vicki Adams which says that Adams did meet Shelley and Lovelady in the vicinity of the frail lifts (where the power switches were located). However, this part of her testimony is not what she told the Warren Commission. She never saw the two men at the moment when she and Sandra got down to the first floor. I wonder if you actually have read Barry Ernest's book.

As per  Shelley's movement, he could not be in the back of the first floor seconds after the last shot to resume the power in the building by pulling the switch in the mains box. 

1. He said in his Warren Commission testimony to have stayed on the top step where he stood during Altgens6 and Wiegman for about a minute or so.

2. He is seen at his spot in the centre of the top landing in the cluster of people in Darnell film. This is about 30+ seconds after the final shot.

3. He was seen by Buell Frazier to depart the steps toward the concrete island after Gloria Calvary told them after the shooting. This is fully consistent with the previous points 1 and 2.

So, either you find someone else than Shelley who credibly was at the back of the first floor near the power switches just at the right moment after the shooting or your escape route theory suffers a fatal flaw.

There are other problems with your escape route theory. Did you elaborate on what time was necessary for the assassins to get to the first floor (after the last shot)? This is important to know as there were many people in the vestibule behind the glass door within some 2 minutes after the last shot. Should the assassins come at about 2 minutes after the last shot, they would open the lift door and bump into people there.  While you think this is all right, my view is that no assassin would crawl through two floors to get to a lift which spills them where potential witnesseses stand. How comes that no traces were left after lifting the wooden boards and returning them back to their place from the inside of the lift shaft? The assassins would one by one have to squeeze through a tiny opening on the top of the lift box. This not only takes time but it also causes noise. The noise would come from the lift on the fourth floor at which floor several people have stayed. They would likely hear the noise of someone jumping from the top of the lift onto the lift platform. What about the rifles(?). Did they carry the rifles with them when exiting the first-floor lift? Was it not an obstacle when squeezing through the lift opening?  Were they two or three people? If three, was the lift big enough to carry them all? 

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

When did I say that you disbelieve Vickie Adams' true testimony?

Well, you were vague enough, however, you wrote that my "theory" (I do not have any theory) differs from your view and your view states that Warren Commission had fabricated the encounter between Vicki and Sandra and Shelley and Lovelady. It is not true that my view would be different from your view in this particular respect. You put my views alongside Jim's view, and Jim actually says that such an encounter did happen because it is in Warren Commission's testimony of Vicki Adams. This is how you misinterpreted my views.

The only point we differ is that I read the testimonies and photographic materials differently to you and the people you mention. I say that it indeed took several minutes to Shelley and Lovelady to return to the building after staying for about a minute or so (Bill Shelley's words) in the doorway before moving to the concrete island. Shelley did not lie about how he got to the building. He came back in about 3 minutes after the last shot and was brave enough not to approve seeing Vicki Adams during his Warren Commission interview, in spite of being lured to say it.

This sequence of events basically eliminates John Armstrong's escape theory, presented here by Jim, because Bill Shelley did not have time to go to the back of the building right after the shooting to pull the switch in the electrical box. My view also differs from those saying that Shelley and Lovelady are seen in Couch/Darnell because these two men were still in the doorway at that time. I have listed in this thread several points to explain the reasons for which Shelley and Lovelady could not be the two men in Couch/Darnell. Shelley's presence in the doorway is supported by 1) His testimony for the Warren Commission, 2) Buell Frazier interview  (2009) in which he said that he has seen them leaving the steps after Gloria Calvery told them about the shooting when she had reached the lower steps, 3.) by the configuration of people in the centre of the doorway in Darnell. That cluster contains three people: Otis Williams in the front, Sarah Stanton in the shadow, and Bill Shelley between these two people. I have reconstructed this cluster and showed it multiple times on this Forum.  

Bill Shelley's affidavit does not say anything about staying on the top landing after the shooting for about a minute because the affidavit is very brief and does not contain any timing of Shelley's movements, only a sequence of events which matches his Warren Commission testimony.  

What the Warren Commission did was that they took the true course of movements of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady and combined them with Vicki Adams' s movements. The movements of both Shelley+Lovelady and Vicki+Sandra were correctly outlined in Warren Commission report, what was incorrect was merging them on the first floor at the time when Vicki reached the first floor. She did not see Shelley and Lovelady when she reached the first floor, and her testimony was changed by the Warren Commission to say she did.

20 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Our claim, if true, negatively impacts the respective theories of Jim Hargrove and Andrej Stancak.

Sandy:

I am afraid you do not understand what I am saying. Vicki Adams spoke the truth, it was only the Warren Commission which misinterpreted her story and what she had witnessed. Please do not try to picture me as disputing Vicki Adams' true testimony. This I find to be a foul play by you to suggest I do not believe what Vicki Adams testified. My view also differs mightily from Jim Hargrove's version which I consistently oppose.

What I also say is that Bill Shelley did not lie when he said he stayed after the shooting for a minute or so. He told so to the Warren Commission and he is also seen on the top landing in Darnell. It is your problem that Shelley's testimony and the visual evidence (Darnell) is not enough and that you still believe Shelley lied about staying on the top landing for a minute. 

My version of Shelley's whereabouts questions the front lift escape theory which suggests that Shelley was the confederate who needed to get to the back of the building and restore the power supply in the building.

I am very disappointed with how you twist my views and would wish that you stop doing it.

I find it incomprehensible that someone would issue some very derogatory statements about the administrators of this forum on some other platforms. If an administrator is at low esteem in a member's eyes, that member should consider leaving the Forum.  While differences in views among two members of the Forum can be heated at times, none of the members should go to a different forum and write derogatory evaluations about the other member there, administrator or not. Such rule protects this forum and it can be required from any EF member. I see no problem saying "We differ with XY in this and that point" on Facebook or some other forum, but I find it unacceptable to see statements portraying another member of this Forum as a coward, l_i_e_r, fraud, dishonest, incompetent, you name it. My comment does not strip anyone from the freedom of speech because it is possible to express differences of views without questioning the character or abilities of any of the forum's members.

I should also add that an administrator does not need to be an expert in a particular aspect of the case, and administrators seldom take part in actual exchanges in threads. They are here to moderate, to check that we abide by the rules. Admins are arbiters in the matter of conduct on this forum.   

My view is that posting the list of banned members, especially if it included cases several years old, would not be correct due to data protection issues. Being mentioned in such a list has some adverse connotations which potentially can affect banned members in their undertakings unrelated to the JFK case. That said, members of this forum should be able to ask the administrators whether a particular member was banned or not.

As far as quoting a banned researcher's piece of work, this observes the standard arrangements for protecting intellectual property, and therefore, a banned member's work needs to be quoted properly by mentioning the source, date of retrieval and the name of the author. I have quoted Mr. Doyle's interview with Sarah Stanton's family members and the photograph he was sent by copying the link, saying when I retrieved it and stating the name of the person who posted. However,  this should be automatic for any piece of work we quote. 

15 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

Shelley is lying here. In his first day statement he said that he ran across the street to the little, old island right after the shots and ran into Gloria Calvery there. Then in his WC testimony he changed it all around, saying that he stayed on the steps for three or four minutes before Gloria Calvery arrived there (ON THE STEPS). And Lovelady said the same lie in his WC testimony.

If you pay attention only to their first day statements, everything makes sense and is corroborated by the Couch Darnell clip. First day affidavits are much more likely to be accurate than later statements. Especially in a cover up.

Shelley and Lovelady were coached into giving false WC testimony so that Victoria Adam's timing could be discredited. Because her timing proved that the official story was hogwash.

 

Sandy:

I do not think that Shelley had lied when he said he stayed where he was for a minute or so. It is not Shelley who some people think he is in Couch/Darnell. Shelley is seen on the top landing in Darnell at his Altgens-Wiegman spot,  matching exactly what he had said to the Warren Commission. If you agree that the man in the western front part of the Doorway was Lovelady, I do not understand why Shelley could not stand where he was just 30 seconds after the last shot.  As far as Shelley is concerned, he is right there at his spot, a piece of his black tie can also be seen. So, Shelley's testimony plus visual data are already some corroborating evidence. I find the DPD affidavit as too brief and inaccurate.

I would assume lying by a witness only as the last resort and would first try to explain findings by checking statements by multiple witnesses. Neither Shelley nor Lovelady actually confirmed seeing Vicki Adams after they returned, so they did not lie and they did not help the Warren Commission a bit with their testimonies.  The lie that occurred was when the Warren Commission wanted to discredit Adams's statements by saying she saw Shelley and Lovelady. The two gentlemen did not take part in this lie.

54 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Andrej,

Motorcycle Policeman Marion Baker makes his run to the TSBD doorway in the Couch-Darnell film at about 30 seconds plus after the assassination of President Kennedy.  The beginning first 1 to 2 seconds of the Couch-Darnell film is equivalent to frames at 37-38 seconds of the Weigman film.

You can disassociate the Couch-Darnell film from where Prayer Man (Oswald) was during the assassination of President Kennedy.  But, you cannot with the Weigman film.  The Weigman film shows PM in the doorway of the TSBD directly after the assassination.  Altgens 6 does not show PM.  The conclusion is that PM is not in the doorway at the time of the shooting.  He is somewhere else.  There are various accounts saying he was elsewhere and others saying he was outside watching the parade.

Andrej Stancak says:

“My analysis of Hughes, e.g., the frame often shown by David Josephs, tells me that Prayer Man was not at his spot when the Presidential limousine was just passing the depository building and before the shots rang out. So, yes, Lee did not watch the parade with other people, he was not in the doorway minutes before, he did not have chat with other employees.  This is consistent with Inspector Kelley's report. Lee came, if he was Prayer Man, into doorway during the moments after President's limo passed and was certainly at his spot just after the last shot - this is documented in Wiegman. So, yes, he also saw the tail of the motorcade, the pandemonium, the commotion and the excitement. This fits with what he told during his very first interrogation and what Agent Hosty has recorded.” 

Your statement is consistent with the Weigman film.  “just after” is the problem of timing when Weigman began filming.  Weigman didn’t begin his filming until he reached the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets.  During the shooting he was on Houston Street in Camera Car #1.  He said he heard two shots while still in the vehicle and was on the street for the third shot.  Camera Car #1 was located on Houston Street midway in front of the Court Records Building.  The block of Houston Street in question is about 200 feet.  The Court Records Building is about half or 100 feet of that block. 

Weigman had to run 50 to 75 feet to be into position to start filming the front of the TSBD.  I estimate that to be 3-5 seconds.  You estimate Oswald walking briskly across the first floor of the TSBD to the door way to be 12 seconds to cover roughly 65 feet.  My 3-5 seconds could be longer depending on Weigman’s running speed.  You say:

“As to the timing, I have calculated that Lee would need 12 seconds to walk briskly (not run) at 6 km/hour speed from the 1st floor lunchroom to the doorway (21 meters in my reading of the 1st floor plan) and thinking of Wiegman's first doorway frame W014 or W015 showing the doorway to coincide with Z313 + 1 second, we can estimate the likely time of his departure from the first floor lunchroom.”   

Depending on how long the Mayor's Car and National Press Pool Car was held up on Elm before moving down Elm Street effects when Weigman begins shooting the film.  Mrs. Earle Cabell says they were definitely stopped.  There could be as much as 11-13 to 19 seconds before Weigman begins filming.  8 seconds for the shooting.  Possibly 3 to 5 seconds (could be longer) for Weigman to get to Elm Street.  Possibly 8 seconds of the Mayor's car sitting still.  That could be 19 seconds.

The 19 second estimate depends on how long the Mayor’s Car sat in the Elm intersection before Weigman began filming.  The first 8 seconds of the Weigman film is black screen.  Is this just for a filming affect or simply to cover 8 seconds of the Mayor’s Car sitting still.

The 11-13 seconds (could be longer) time for Weigman to get to Elm Street is enough for your 12 second estimate.  Actually, Oswald was a life long walker, didn’t drive, walked everywhere.  He could have made that quicker than 12 seconds. 

Yes, Oswald or Prayer Man had time to get to the doorway from wherever he was.  Marion Baker supposedly made his run in 4 seconds.  HIs run is at least half the distance of the TSBD, about 50 feet or more. I don't agree with PM being in the building.  I think he was on Elm Street as shown in John Martin.  That's an old argument and not necessary here.  If he was in the building as you say he had time to reach the doorway and be outside.  No Problem.

Thanks, John, this is very useful and elaborate.

I can only add from my angle, from reconstructing the doorway scenes, that Z255 scene depicted in Altgens6  is quite different to what we see in Wiegman, confirming your conclusion that the time estimate provided by Daley Myers (Z257 = W015) is way off. At least few differences: 1. Carl Jones gazes toward Houston Street in Altgens6, and in a general front direction in Wiegman. 2. Mrs. Stanton moved from behind Lovelady (Altgens6) to the space in the shadow, behind Mr. Shelley in Wiegman. 3. Lovelady moved closer toward the central railing in Wiegman. 4. Mr. Molina moved  more  to the east in Wiegman compatred to Altgens6. (There seem to be more changes in Williams and Molina in Wiegman compared to Altgens6, however, I cannot recall the exact details at the moment.)

Jim:

Bill Shelley is still on the top landing in Darnell, some 30 seconds after the last shot. He eventually went to call his wife but he first went out to the concrete island in front of the building. This is not only in the Warren Commission testimonies but it has been also witnessed by Buell Wesley Frazier (the part of Shelley and Lovelady leaving to the front of the building after hearing from Gloria Calvery). At the same time, the ceiling light is on in the vestibule just feet from the lift in the front part of the building - no power outage there. There is no time stamp for when he actually went into the building to call his wife, it is most likely that that happened after he and Lovelady came back via a side entrance, some 3 minutes after the last shot.

Bill Shelley for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. 
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it. 
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then? 
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.
Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west. 
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

It is all about the detailed timing of Lee Oswald's movements which, unfortunately, is not known. Given the uncertainty of the exact moments of Lee Oswald's arrival into doorway and of duration of his stay there, multiple statements can be correct as none contains an exact time stamp.

My analysis of Hughes, e.g., the frame often shown by David Josephs, tells me that Prayer Man was not at his spot when the Presidential limousine was just passing the depository building and before the shots rang out. So, yes, Lee did not watch the parade with other people, he was not in the doorway minutes before, he did not have chat with other employees.  This is consistent with Inspector Kelley's report. Lee came, if he was Prayer Man, into doorway during the moments after President's limo passed and was certainly at his spot just after the last shot - this is documented in Wiegman. So, yes, he also saw the tail of the motorcade, the pandemonium, the commotion and the excitement. This fits with what he told during his very first interrogation and what Agent Hosty has recorded. 

As to the timing, I have calculated that Lee would need 12 seconds to walk briskly (not run) at 6 km/hour speed from the 1st floor lunchroom to the doorway (21 meters in my reading of the 1st floor plan) and thinking of Wiegman's first doorway frame W014 or W015 showing the doorway to coincide with Z313 + 1 second, we can estimate the likely time of his departure from the first floor lunchroom. I can be wrong, however, Lee may have reacted to the noise of the crowd which had augmented when the motorcade got to Houston Street. That would be the go signal making him leave the 1st floor lunchroom. He would be still in the building when the first shot rang out (thus, he was IN the building) on his way out, approaching the glass door, and he would reach his spot just a second before the last shot. It takes up to 3 seconds to squeeze through the semi-open glass door and get to Prayer Man's spot.

Prayer Man was watching the cars passing the Depository in Wiegman but he was completely uninterested in events evolving around him in Darnell. His behaviour is very odd - all doorway occupants optimise their vantage points and view angles to see the most of the area around the Tripple Underpass. None of the doorway occupants behaved like Prayer Man.

The spot at the western wall was the only spot which Lee could take if he entered the doorway late. Please mind that as he exited  through the semi-open glass door, he could not go left because that route was blocked by Mrs. Sanders. He could not stay at the centre of the doorway, as there was the huge Mrs. Stanton and the tiny Mr. Shelley who occupied these premium posts. He could not stay just there slightly west of Mrs. Stanton and Mr. Shelley, because of Buell Wesley Frazier. He was standing close to the western pane of the glass door in the shadow, almost touching the door (his Wiegman location). Billy Lovelady at that point was at his Altgens6/early Wiegman location, on the second step, so Lee needed to move still further to the west and front of the top landing - to his Prayer Man location. At that spot, Lee would not obstruct the views of any of the people standing on the top landing.

Late edit: Lee reacted to the noise of the crowd when he decided to go out, to see the commotion, the excitement, not to the shooting. I am inclined to believe that he did not anticipate any shooting to occur. However, the shooting which did occur had a very different meaning to him compared to other people in the doorway. Instead of going to the island or railroad tracks, or at least gazing to that general area, he watched in an indefinite way towards East Elm or Houston - he was thinking and pondering his next steps. The scenario may have been the one described in Chris Fulton's Inheritance: he was an intelligence asset and he was possibly informed about a mock assassination attempt which, however, he was told had been called off on the last minute (bad whether reason?). Therefore, he was not expecting anything to happen and quietly ate his lunch and went out to see the crowds when it looked like the motorcade is approaching. However, once he was out, he knew that the called-out action actually took place and was even hijacked to be a real assassination. He knew the people who had been preparing the mock attempt and who called it off, and this could be on his mind as he stood there staring to nowhere.