Andrej Stancak

Jim:

I do not approve your posting of messages by a person who has been banned from this and other forums because of his insulting behaviour towards the moderators and other forum members. This person confuses his impressions and speculations with facts, and keeps repeating his false information without any ability to correct himself.  

Anyway:

1. The top of Prayer Man's head reached to 5'2'' in Darnell. This is an indisputable fact since the vertical and horizontal dimensions of the doorway are known and it is therefore possible to project the realistic dimensions of the doorway onto Darnell stills. Therefore, Mrs. Stanton who was 5'5'' could not pose as Prayer Man - she would be too tall. Period. After not passing the height criterion, the whole idea of Mrs. Stanton being Prayer Man collapses. The hair colour and the body build and Prayer Man's bent leg are further points refuting Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man. However, this is what the person you represent likes: to argue constantly about some perceptions and subjective assessments. 

2. Mrs. Stanton, being a heavyset lady, required some space while on the top landing. The necessary space to accommodate her body was at the back of the doorway, close to the glass window. Please see here the top view of the top landing. It is an earlier version of the doorway with Mrs. Stanton still represented as a relatively thin lady wearing a light-colour shirt.

Mrs. Stanton could not see much of events unfolding in front of her from that vantage point and this might have been the reason for a quick return to her office after the shooting. However, there is a "smudge" at the spot behind Bill Shelley's right shoulder in one of Darnell stills (top panel in the figure below) which would correspond to a person 5'5''.

3. As far as the presence of Mrs. Stanton in other films or pictures is concerned, Altgens6 shows the face of a person standing behind Billy Lovelady and close to Bill Shelley's right shoulder, which means to the left of Buell Wesley Frazier and consistent with all statements of Mr. Frazier. I am working on the 3D reconstruction of this scene for some time, and hope to be finished soon.

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I never wanted this thread to be about PrayerSmudge....  The image is too fuzzy to make any kind of ID with certainty.  But since folks here seem to want it to keep this going, I'm going to post the following Brian Doyle sent me a few days ago,  though I'm removing one minor insult:

Sarah Stanton almost certainly saw Oswald by the rear 2nd floor staircase landing...Not only were Cokes sold right next to the staircase landing in the lunch room but Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in that same lunch room shortly after Stanton...

Stanton had an eating problem and it is very likely she ate before going out to watch the motorcade...So after having eaten in the 2nd floor lunch room she saw Oswald on the way out and asked if he was going to eat too...The reason Stanton asked was because of Oswald's proximity to the lunch room...It is even possible that Stanton saw Oswald on the staircase landing, went through the vestibule to talk to him out on the landing in order to invite him to view the motorcade, and then went back through the vestibule and exited via the hallway and front elevator...

It is unlikely that Oswald was by the front staircase because Mrs Reid detailed going out that way on her way out to see the motorcade...If Oswald were by the front staircase on the 2nd floor Mrs Reid would have seen him there too and mentioned it...I would also imagine Stanton would have taken the elevator had she gone to the front staircase on the 2nd floor...The elevator is before you got to the staircase and separated from it, so Stanton would not be able to talk to Oswald had she taken the elevator...

The Coke is clear confirmation of the lunch room encounter...It not only places Oswald in the lunch room where Carolyn Arnold saw him but it sets him up there as intending to eat... The Coke also gives validity to Mrs Reid, whom the Prayer Man people were dismissing as a xxxx who was in on the plot...

Let's tally the score here:   2nd floor lunch room witnesses for Oswald - Sarah Stanton, Carolyn Arnold, Baker & Truly... Witnesses for Oswald being right in front of everyone on the portal landing:  Z E R O   ...   Witnesses who describe in clear terms Prayer Man being Sarah Stanton:   Buell Frazier...   Billy Lovelady...
     

 

This is the transcript of the relevant part of the interview with Mrs. Stanton's family members:

02:08: Sarah Stanton saw Lee Oswald on stairs. She asked if she was going down, and he said he is going upstairs.
02:32: "No, I am going upstairs" "I came down to get the soda and I am going back ... to the room where he was working"    
03:12: Sarah saw Lee Oswald holding a soda in his hand.
04:26: Lee got the soda from the machine there.
05:03: Sarah said Lee was going to eat and he just came to get a soda.
05:48: Sarah asked if Lee was going to have lunch. He said: "No, I am going back to my room."
06:09: "The reason ... She wanna to talk to him because he was a very quiet person... and he was not going to... to have a conversation with nobody".
06:23: "So, she said he never talked, so she asked him if he was going out to lunch. And he said, "No, just a soda". "
07:19: Sarah went down because President was already coming but he was not there yet. So she went to prepare herself and be on the stairs where she met Oswald.
08:15: "He went upstairs".

Sarah Stanton met Lee Oswald while he was already holding a Coke in his hand. Lee was on stairs during their encounter although this is a bit confusing as it is not clear outright if the stairs were between the first and second floor or the second and third floor. Lee holding a Coke before the motorcade was a big problem for the second floor encounter between Marrion Baker and Lee Oswald. Buying a Coke before the motorcade renders Lee's presence in the second floor lunchroom after the shooting entirely meaningless. This was the reason for suppressing Mrs. Stanton's statements by the law enforcement, even if her statements had played into the cards of Warren Commission: Lee, according to Mrs. Stanton, said he was going up to the room where he was working, which could be the fifth or sixth floor, the floors to which Warren Commission would have loved to pin Lee Oswald.

There is also a problem with the time at which the encounter between Mrs. Stanton and Lee Oswald happened. Billy Lovelady's and Bill Shelley's testimonies for the Warren Commission suggest that both these men came out to the doorway early on, not some 5 minutes before the shooting, and Mrs. Stanton was already out when they came out. Mrs. Stanton was out much earlier than 12.25, possibly 12.10 or 12.15.

The figure of Prayer Man in Darnell contains sufficient details to accept the possibility of Lee Oswald being Prayer Man. I understand that you see it differently and hope you will change your views later after you see more analyses of Prayer Man's figure.

1 hour ago, Ken Rheberg said:

Stamp club mentalities.  Or stamp club sensibilities.  The sharing and trading of stamps with other like-minded collectors.  And having a darn good time doing it.  A little searching, and finding, and saving, and clipping, and studying, and displaying.  Might even have a really strong attachment to a stamp or two or more.  But nothing earthshaking is ever going to happen because of it.  After all, it's just a hobby.  And you've got a life.

It is all right, Ken. I understand your disappointment. People had invested their time, funds, careers, family lives, sleepless nights, and fears to find out what happened to John Kennedy, Lee Oswald and Officer Tippit. I have the highest appreciation for these people. Yet, someone may say that it was all in vain as the plotters and the killers have not been brought to justice. I say it all had a purpose. It is like when millions of sperm cells are making their way to the egg but only one can succeed and very often not even one. However, the one which made it would not make it without those million cells around.

I am convinced that the case can be solved and that a breakthrough will come.  One of the theories (and each is supported by a stamp club, you are right) is correct, we only do not know which one and what cross-talk there is between multiple theories.

17 hours ago, John Butler said:

5’2” is dead on.  You have identified one characteristic that can be related to Harvey Oswald or as Hargroves says Classic Oswald.  Add the 7 inches for the step and 5’9” is the same height as Oswald.  

I like your natural and logical approach to the height problem, and appreciate your approval.

4 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Chin or Clavicle?

Chris:

The most correct line is the one taking into account the perspective which is the top edge line of the orange-yellow wall. Of course, the wall is 5'2'' and sits on the top landing.This line would connect with the lower aspect of Mr. Frazier's chin. The blue lines crossing Prayer Man's head were all right in the sense that they highlighted an important landmark but they ended just below the chin.

The next figure shows an overlay of  Darnell still, the 3D model with the slab, and the blue horizontal line.

The top right corner of the slab was slightly higher than the left corner. However, the height of the slab was exactly at the top of Prayer Man's head at about 1/3 of the horizontal length of the slab. While the blue horizontal line is a good approximation of the relative height of Prayer Man compared to Mr. Frazier, the horizontal line of the slab is still a better choice. The result is the same for each of the two solutions (blue line or the horizontal line of the slab) albeit more accurate if the perspective factor is taken into account. The top of Prayer Man's head, if perspective is taken into account, reached to the the lower aspect of Mr. Frazier's chin.

I would be grateful for expressing any doubts about the correctness of my analysis and reasoning as if I do not hear any I am inclined to assume that the 5'2'' estimate has been accepted.

 The height of the human head is 9.1'' in a male of an average body height, however, it gets to 9.7''  - 10'' in very tall people such as Mr. Buell Wesley Frazier. Here is a copy of a Wikipedia page labelled "Human head":

Thus, the height of Mr. Frazier's head was about 10''. Not 7 1/2'' or 8'', it would be a mistake to assume such a small head in an adult male.

In Darnell still, the top of Prayer Man's head reaches to the lower edge of Mr. Frazier's chin, and it is therefore reasonable to assume that the height Prayer Man's head reached to was 72'' (Mr. Frazier's body height) - 10 (height of the head)  = 62'' or 5'2'' above the plane of the top landing.

This is illustrated with the horizontal blue line in the figure below:

The question is if drawing this line is justified given the effect of perspective which can alter apparent dimensions of distant and close 3D objects.

To check the appropriateness of the simple drawing above, I have placed a slab, a 3D object, into the doorway in such a way that it would cover Prayer Man's head. Recall, Prayer Man stood in the front part of the top landing. The vertical plane crossing the riser of the top step would cross Prayer Man's head about in the centre. The slab is thick enough to also cover the head of Mrs. Stanton should she stay on the top landing at Prayer Man's location (she did not!). 

And a top view of the slab:

2 hours ago, Ken Rheberg said:

Sorry, Andrej.  More than "interesting to know."  This is the sad state of the so-called "Research Community" today.  Meaningless threads going nowhere.  Created and perpetuated on this very forum, in so many cases, by individuals with nothing more than stamp club mentalities.  And cheered on and dominated by a third generation reader/writer who has done nothing, so far, to lead you to the Promised Land of what really happened that day in Dealey Plaza.  Will he ever take you there?  Don't hold your breath.

Thanks, Ken, for your comment which I do not know if it was intended to point to the lack of deep research interest on my part of on somebody else's part. I am maybe a fourth-generation researcher. Of course, I would love to speak to the witnesses or to the pioneers of JFK research such as Harold Wiseberg or Mark Lane, unfortunately, this possibility was not given to me. 

As a fourth-generation researcher, however, I do what I can do and what my predecessors could not do: I am reconstructing the old photographs using 3D modelling, and am able to extract information which previous researchers did not see. I see a big progress in the understanding of what was happening in the doorway during the shooting in spite of many people downplaying or twisting it.

As far as Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanon are concerned, I would have hoped that the researchers living in Dallas/Texas had contacted the two ladies in the sixties or seventies when they were both alive and had good memories. In fact, the family members of Mrs. Stanton confirmed that Mrs. Stanton had been approached but she did not want to speak to anyone. It could have been the same with Mrs. Saunders.  The FBI testimony of Mrs. Stanton differs from what she told to the family members in several important points indicating that she knew that there was a difference between what happened and what she had told to the FBI. We at least have their photographs which are extremely helpful. The testimonies of the family members will inevitably have limited accuracy and would be filtered not only by memory lapses but also by the fact that they are reported by someone else. 

Actually, the stakes are high in this or similar now scattered threads related to Prayer Man. The question is whether the person standing close to the western wall in Darnell just after the shooting could be Lee Oswald. The whole official story of the Warren Commission hangs on it and this is not a small or unimportant thing.

John:

your camera interpretation certainly has a number of defenders, as does the coke in Prayer Man's hand. It also can be that he did not hold anything and it was the back of his right hand which caused a reflection. My current view is that it is the bottom of a coke bottle orientated flat towards the sun what could cause the contrasting light spot in Wiegman. If so, Prayer Man may have put the bottle into the recess on the second step between Wiegman and Darnell because I cannot see any bottle in Darnell stills. Of course, this is a speculation, I have no data to prove the coke or anything else.

12 hours ago, Ken Rheberg said:

 

Have any of you either personally contacted, tried to personally contact, or even thought of personally contacting Pauline Sanders' son, daughter-in-law or grandson about any of this?  If they agree to talk to you, it seems like they might be able to clear up any confusion regarding Pauline's height, weight, where she was standing, what she remembered that day, etc.

Ken

Ken:

Mrs. Linda Zambanini was able to retrieve the photographs of Mrs. Sanders and they are in page 1 of this thread. I am not sure if Linda or anyone else have contacted the living family members. While it would be interesting to know if Mrs. Sanders's family had also any memories of the 22nd of November told to them by Mrs. Pauline Sanders, her location in the doorway does not produce too many disputes. She is seen in one, and only one, frame of Darnell film as a tiny person standing very close to the glass window in the eastern part of the doorway:

Her body height was about 5'' and it matches the relative body height in a group photograph of standing ladies (page 1). Mrs. Sanders was the second shortest person in the row of ladies suggesting that she was indeed short. I have estimated her body height in my blog article: http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com (January 31, 2018). The hairline of Mrs. Sanders is very unique. It was dark and boyish looking, and created as if a small cap on her head. This hair would be consistent with the hair seen in the tiny person in Darnell still (yellow frame in the picture above).

Some uncertainties were about the location of Mrs. Stanton, the other of two ladies standing on the top landing while the motorcade was passing in front of the Depository building. Fortunately, Mrs. Stanton's photograph has also been discovered and her family members confirmed that her body height was 5'4'' - 5'6''. Having these new data, I decided to verify the possibility that Mrs. Stanton could pose as Prayer Man and this was the purpose of my recent posts in this thread.

Mrs. Stanton could not be Prayer Man for quite a number of reasons:

1. Mrs. Stanton was too tall relative to the height of the top of Prayer Man's head. The point corresponding to the top of Prayer Man's head was 5'2'' above the plane of the top landing. Mrs. Stanton was too tall (5'5'') and her figure in the 3D model has exceeded Prayer Man's figure. I was able to show the height mismatch using 3D modelling.

2. However, one does not need to use 3D modelling to grasp that Mrs. Stanton would be too tall to be Prayer Man. Her son Larry  (6' - 6'1'') was of about the same height as Mr. Frazier. In the photograph in which she and her son stood next to each other,  the top of Mrs. Stanton's head reaches to Larry's nose. As Larry and Mr. Frazier were of identical body height, it is possible to to draw an analogy and check how her body height would map onto Mr. Frazier's body. This simple comparison showed that Mrs. Stanton was indeed too tall to be Prayer Man since the horizontal line crossing the top of her head has crossed Mr. Frazier's nose; however, this line is higher than the line crossing the top of Prayer Man's head. My last post actually reproduced this finding using a 3D model.

3. Mr. Stanton had massive upper arms but her upper arms and forearms were comparatively short.  Further the lenght of her forearm was about the same as the lenght of her upper arm. In contrast, Prayer Man had an unusally long forearm, much longer than Mr. Stanton's forearm.

4. If fitted to the Prayer Man location, the figure of Mrs. Stanton would show clear disparities with Prayer Man's figure: 1. besides being too tall, her right elbow would not overlap with Prayer Man's elbow joint, it would be much higher and far away from Paryer Man's elbow joint. 2. Mrs. Stanton would stand with her legs straight and her left leg would not cover the visible part of the radiator as Prayer Man's left leg does.

5. Mrs. Stanton had grey hair which created a thick layer above her forehead. This hair is not compatible with Prayer Man's hair which was short, dark and consistent with a male haircut.

6. Mrs. Stanton was obese, she weighed above 300 pounds. As in many obese people, her figure shows her head to be attached to the shoulders as if there was no neck. Prayer Man's figure was that of a slender person and his head was clearly above his shoulders.

7. Mrs. Stanton stood in the vicinity of Mrs. Shelley, Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Williams. Thus, according to her own statements she was in the cluster of people standing about in the centre of the doorway, she did not stand alone at the western wall.

8. Mr. Frazier resoundingly confirmed that Mr. Stanton stood to his left, consistent with Mrs. Stanton's own and other people's testimonies, in his 2002 interview with Gary Mack (53:15). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNq-y_NLvj8&t=3216s

To understand the problem of Mrs. Stanton's figure posing as Prayer Man, I have highlighted with yellow lines few important features in Prayer Man's figure: the contour of his head, the right elbow, and forearm and his bent left leg. Please note the short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow and the head of the man below.

#

The overlays of these contours (in purple), the Darnell still and Mrs. Stanton's figure are shown in the next two insets which also summarise the unsolvable problems with Mrs. Stanton = Prayer Man solution.

Obviously, Mrs. Stanton was too tall to be Prayer Man. The top of her head would reach to Mr. Frazier's nose just like it does in the family photograph, in which Mrs. Stanton's head reached to the nose of her son Larry (6' - 6'1''). The height problem is demonstrated with the blue horizontal line. The yellow line is the height to which the top of Prayer Man's head would reach. As predicted in my previous posts, the right elbow is too high and too far from the head of the man standing three steps lower and who I believe was Mrs. Billy Lovelady. It is not important at this stage if the man was Billy Lovelady or someone else. This head offers an important landmark and every plausible solution has to show that the right elbow is as close to that man's head as Darnell's still shows. The yellow line indicates the large gap in the region of the right elbow. The gap is owing to: 1) the person on the top landing is further away from this man's head compared to Prayer Man who effectively stood on the second step. 2) homologous body parts in two people of unequal body heights (5'9'' and 5'2'') will not be on the same height levels even if the taller of the two people stood 7'' lower than the shorter person. In this particular situation, the elbow joints will be 2'' higher in the short compared to the tall person. 3) Mrs. Stanton was 5'5'' which adds additional 3'' to the elbow height difference. Finally, Prayer Man's bent left leg covers a part of the radiator in Darnell's still but not Mrs. Stanton's legs. Should Mrs. Stanton stand at Prayer Man's location, her straight legs would not obstruct the visible part of the radiator.

There is another problem with Mrs. Stanton's location close to the western wall. The back of her right hand does not reflect the sunlight. If she is moved few inches eastwards, her hand would indeed touch the sunlight. In that case, however, other features of her figure would not match Prayer Man, especially her head which would be in front of Prayer Man' head. Of course, the distance from the lower man's head would not decrease, it would rather increase. 

[The next two posts were moved from a different thread after realising that the content of that thread was only marginally related to Mrs. Stanton. Please note that the figure of Mrs. Stanton has been updated to the one shown in my latest posts in this thread].

Returning to Mrs. Stanton, let us place her figure (5'5'') onto the top landing and explore how would she fare as Prayer Man. To recall, Mrs. Stanton's figure was carefully modelled using the family photograph in which Mrs. Stanton had posed with her son Larry. Mrs. Stanton was a huge lady weighing more than 300 pounds, with massive (but not long) upper arms and bottom.

This is the family photograph and with the figure of Mrs. Stanton:

I changed the colours of Mrs. Stanton's clothes to yield grey colors in a black-and-white photograph, and here she is standing at approximate Prayer Man's location. Please note that she is as close to the front edge of the top landing as possible. 

And a Darnell view with the doorway embedded into Darnell still:
 

The overhead view of the doorway with Mr. Frazier's and Mrs. Stanton's figure may be handy too.

Moved to "Pauline Sanders" thread.

Moved to "Pauline Sanders" thread.

Bart:

I took your picture, extended the yellow line and drew another line representing the eastern wall of the building, and then measured the angle between the two lines. The angle is 18.48 degrees. Why do you think this angle would be different from e.g., my estimate of 18.20 degrees? Your analysis supports other analyses whether they were done by calculations using NASA data or using D modelling (Google Earth). 

As far as the shadow on the right shoulder in Mr. Frazier's figure is concerned, please note that this shadow was cast by the front edge of the doorway ceiling. This shadow would be symmetric on Mr. Frazier's shoulders should he be aligned perfectly with the edge line of the top landing. However, Mr. Frazier stood at an angle relative to the edge line of the top landing and therefore his right shoulder was further back in the doorway than his left shoulder. The consequence of his stance is that the shadow reached lower on the right shoulder than on the left shoulder, and was therefore not symmetrically distributed over the shoulder line. This shadow was not cast by the western pillar though. Mr. Frazier, at that moment, stood quite far from the shadow line related to the western pillar.

Please check this overhead view of the doorway. It shows both types of shadows and Mr. Frazier's location which was quite far from the western shadow.

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Now then Andrej and others, the all mighty sun plane needs to be amended

Could you maybe calculate your proposed angle of the shadow line in the doorway?

I should add that the diameter of Prayer Man's upper arm is not something which can clearly favor either Lee Oswald or Mrs. Stanton. The problem is the length of the forearm which was unusually long in Prayer Man's figure. It was Lee Oswald who had a very long forearm. In the figure below, the Poser model of Lee Oswald (middle) needed to have his forearm extended by 10 or 15%  compared to a standard male to match Lee's forearm in the NOPD photograph. 

Before I place Mrs. Stanton on Prayer Man's location, let me point to the dilemma with any figure posing as Prayer Man who would stand with both feet on the top landing.

Please observe the short distance between Prayer Man's right elbow and the head of the man standing on the third step from the bottom. Of course, the two points (PM's right elbow and the head of the man below) were in fact about two feet apart, however, Darnell shows the distance as almost a touch. This short distance cannot be reproduced once the figure is moved to the inside of the doorway which would happen by placing Prayer Man with both his feet onto the top landing. Further, Prayer Man's elbow would be about two inches higher in a figure 5'2'' on the top landing compared to someone measuring 5'9'' but standing on the second step. The figure below shows the inevitable two inches increment in the height of the forearms just because standing one step apart (7'') and compensating it by small body height (5'2'' compared to 5'9'') does not yield the same vertical locations of homologous body parts.

In case of Mrs. Stanton, we need to add 3'' (this much was she taller than 5'2'') to the 2'' = 5''. The forearm level will be 5'' higher in the figure of Mrs. Stanton posing as Prayer Man compared to Prayer Man we see in Darnell. However, this will move her right elbow even further away from the head of the man standing few steps below.   

The forearm problems do not end here. Since Mrs. Stanton would be further to the inside of the doorway than Prayer Man standing on the second step her head would need to be aligned with the vertical edge of the aluminum door frame. This can be achieved, however, only on the cost of moving her closer to the wall. Unfortunately, she will move few inches away from the shadow line and the back of her right hand would not reflect the sunlight any longer. So, we would need to move her few inches westwards to have her right hand exposed to the sunlight. However, this will move her away from the plane crossing the vertical line of the door frame. Besides being too tall to be Prayer Man, Mrs. Stanton would not reproduce the distances from other objects in the doorway.

I will show some images illustrating Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man soon. However, this small exercise may be useful to appreciate that Prayer Man's location in Darnell s a tight geometric problem which has only one solution. We are lucky that Darnell and Prayer Man yielded this unique combination of spatial relationships. The problem of Prayer Man's height is closely related to his exact location, and the problem is solvable even if it takes some time.

Jim:

I agree that the shirt situation largely depends on inferences without any hard evidence and on relying that certain testimonies were truthful. While I would not call it evidence,  the upper arm above the elbow joint in Prayer Man's figure appears to be quite wide which may be owing to the rolled-up sleeve. It is a subjective perception which many will not agree with and given the lack of details it is difficult to find a judge. 

Jim, there is obviously a confusion about the shirt. Please find here a part fo Cpt. Fritz's notes saying he changed  shirts and trousers. Lee Oswald did not have time to change the shirt earlier because he went to Irving on Thursday with the same shirt he wore on Friday morning. How did the ticket occur in the pocket of his darker shirt, this I do not know, however, it could also be one of Lee's small puzzles he was producing on a continuous basis. He might not have wished that anyone found it when his room would be inspected, or on the contrary, that he couls use it as a proof of his whereabouts. He could also mechanically pull out the ticket from one shirt and put it into another. 

"At appt. Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes - long  sleeve red sh + gray tr."

24 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

PrayerSmudge appears to be too heavy-set to be either Oswald.  Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald was 5’9” tall and weighed just 135-150 lbs, probably closer to 135. American-born LEE Oswald was 5’11” tall and weighed about 165 lbs, still quite a bit thinner than PrayerSmudge appears to be, especially in the forearms, PrayerSmudge’s clearest attribute.

PrayerSmudge is not dressed like either Oswald.  

In the photo Andrej showed, PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing a short-sleeved dark shirt, which was worn by neither Oswald on 11/22/63.  HARVEY Oswald famously wore a long-sleeved  dark brown shirt, as described by Bledsoe on the bus, Whaley in the taxi, and others both BEFORE and after he reached the rooming house.

 

LEE Oswald was described by many, including those who saw him enter the green Nash Rambler station wagon on Elm, as wearing a short-sleeved white shirt. 

Neither Oswald wore a short-sleeve dark shirt, as PrayerSmudge appears to be wearing.

Again, this is too bad, because it would be nice if PrayerSmudge was LHO, either LHO, but it doesn’t appear to be so.

Jim:

Lee Oswald did not wear the same shirt while at work and during PM hours after he went to his rooming house.  He had his long sleeves rolled up to the elbows. The shirt was not stuck in his pants, rather it was loose with both front facings of the shirt out on his pants. This loose shirt makes the impression that he was thicker than he really was. Of note, the shirt Lee wore in the afternoon did not have the front facings as leaves, it was of equal length around its diameter. Also, the shirt Lee wore in the afternoon was much darker than the one he wore in the morning and which is of identical colour as we see in Darnell film.

Warren Commission Exhibits related to Marina Oswald's testimony: 

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please show me the best image you have of PrayerSmudge as LHO.   You certainly don't have to do it, but I'd LOVE to see it.

Jim:

the best frame is perhaps the one posted on Robin Unger's jfkassassinationgallery.com:

The image, of course, is slightly blurred, yet it reveals several features supporting the possibility that Prayer Man was Lee Oswald:

1. It is a male.

2. He wears worker type of clothes of grey colour matching well the shirt and pants worn by Lee on that Friday (Marina Oswald's testimony).

3. The man measures 5'9''  which is Lee Oswald's body height.

4. The hair and hairline of the man are similar to Lee Oswald's features.

5. The posture of this man is featured by his right leg being backward and left leg forward and bent, which are the features seen in Lee's childhood pictures and numerous adult pictures.

This man came out to his spot very late, perhaps just a few seconds before the commencement of Wiegman film as he is not seen at his spot in Hughes film (at least no one has shown him there so far).  Therefore, Prayer Man most likely came out through the glass door after Kennedy's limo passed the building. 

The critics of Prayer Man = Oswald theory have been often pointing to the alternative explanation which was that Prayer Man was Sarah Stanton. There were two ladies on the top landing during the time of the shooting, Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Saunders. Fortunately, none of the ladies could have possibly posed as Prayer Man. Mrs. Saunders stood close to the glass door in the eastern section of the doorway, and Mrs. Stanton in the cluster of people: Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady and Otis Williams. While there is only a partial face of a person seen in Altgens6 at her assumed location on the top landing, confirming that she did not stand at the western wall as Prayer Man did, a more convincing proof excluding Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man comes from the heigh analysis. Mrs. Stanton was too tall to be Prayer Man. There are certainly a number of other issues such as hair colour and shape of her hair and her  overall body build which also dismiss  Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man. I have posted the recent height analysis on Mrs. Stanon's body height in "Pauline Sanders" thread because I saw that this thread is getting more in direction of the second-floor encounter.  

Sean Murphy provided a logical analysis of possible candidates for being Prayer Man back in 2013. The analysis revealed that there is simply no one else who could be Prayer Man than Lee Oswald. After eliminating now the two uncertain possibilities (Mrs. Stanton, Mrs. Saunders), Sean's question is getting even more impetus. Who was Prayer Man? Points 1-5 on top of my post give enough reasons to pursue Prayer Man = Lee Oswald line.

This is the picture showing Mrs. Stanton as a lady 5'5'' and standing close to Larry (who was not in the doorway, of course) and Buell Wesley Frazier. This analysis excludes Mrs. Stanton as Prayer Man for good.

Right, let us continue pursuing the possibility of Sarah Stanton being Prayer Man. We now know that Mrs. Stanton considered herself to be 5'4'' - 5'6''. However, the thick layer of her hair makes it difficult to say exactly how tall, within the range given by herself, she actually was. Therefore, I constructed a 3D model of Mrs. Stanton by copying as many of her features as possible. A slightly less elaborate model of Larry was also made because Larry was 6' or 6'1'' and his figure was useful in checking Mrs. Stanton's body height.

The figure below shows the original family photograph (left) and the reconstructed figures (right) with a 30% and 70% overlays in the middle.

It is important to note that Mrs. Stanton had a very thick but not a long upper forearm.  Also, please note that Larry stands slightly behind Mrs. Stanton which can confound readings of his body height from a photograph.

After obtaining correct proportions of both figures, it was possible to import them into the 3D  doorway model to see how would they look like in comparison to Mr. Frazier. The next figure shows the doorway with Mrs. Stanton and Larry on the left and Mr. Frazier at his usual location on the right. Mrs. Stanton's body height was set to 5'5''. It is not too difficult to see that Larry was of the exact same height as Mr. Frazier. Also, the top of Mrs. Stanton head is much higher that Mr. Frazier shoulder/lower chin line which Prayer Man's figure shows in Darnell.

And the same figures with measuring sticks crossing their bodies so that everyone can check the body heights. Of course, Larry was 6' and not 5'10'' which the best photoanalyst has professionally determined just by looking on the picture. 

We will also explore how would Mrs. Stanton fare as Prayer Man. This promises to be a lot of fun.

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 but I don’t see how your measurements rule out Sarah Stanton as PrayerMan.

Jim:

I spent three years reconstructing the doorway in 3D. The logic is the following: if we have an accurate 3D model of the doorway, based on measured dimensions of all its aspects, it is possible to orient the doorway to the same view as seen in a historic photograph. Then, by just decreasing or increasing the size of one of the images (the original or a 2D picture of the 3D doorway), one can achieve a very good alignment between the model and the doorway. I am checking the quality of the alignment by overlaying the original (e.g., Darnell) still with the 3D model. The essential added value of this method is that various objects in the historic photograph (e.g., people)  also achieve realistic dimensions (inherited from the 3D model),  and it is possible then to read their sizes. Therefore, I am able to read the height of the top of Prayer Man's head and can see it is 5'2''. If my mannequin would be e.g., taller than Prayer Man, the overlay would reveal a mismatch in the model's body height. As far as the body orientations and leaning and tilting are concerned, those need to be reproduced as accurately as possible. I am using Poser 11.1 to model some characters, such as Prayer Man.

You can read more about my methods on my blog: http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com .

I am placing here one overlay of my 3D model and a Darnell still. Please note a light spot to the right of Mr. Shelley's head (the man in a black suit on the top platform).  This, in my humble opinion, is what belongs to Mrs. Stanton who stood back there on the top landing, and to the left of Mr. Frazier. 

And this is an example of my 3D reconstruction of Altgens6 (in development)  showing a very good alignment between the 3D model and Altgens6. A-D show overlays at different blending rates.

I hope this may help you to understand my methods better.

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

So ehm Buell where was Sarah Stanton standing? At 53:00

 

 

Left,of course left just as the statements already been saying......

 

Any questions?

This interview alone seals the case. Mr. Frazier confirmed very clearly without any hesitations that a lady stood to his left, not to his right. This is consistent with the person, which I have estimated earlier to be 5'4'', standing behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder and to the left of Mr. Frazier. There was enough space there, and Mrs. Stanton obviously needed space since she was a huge lady. This puts her in the back row of spectators and this is the reason we only see glimpses of her figure in Darnell. Fortunately, there is a partial face in Altgens6 which was at a similar location (slightly more forward though) as in Darnell and at a height corresponding to the height at which Mrs. Stanton would have her face. 

This leads us to the question when did Mrs. Stanton see Lee Harvey Oswald on Friday, November 22. In my opinion, Mrs. Stanton went out early, possibly around 12.10 PM, and that was the time when she met Lee Oswald on stairs. 

This early time estimate refers to two testimonies: the testimony of Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. 

1. Billy Lovelady came to the first floor at 11.50 or 12.00noon:

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day? 

Mr. LOVELADY - Same time, 12. 
Mr. BALL - A little before 12? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.

He washed his hands, went up to the second floor to buy a coke, and came back with the coke to the first floor.  In the next, he saw Mrs. Stanton through the glass door and decided to go out. He saw Mrs. Stanton there:

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down. 
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor? 
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. 
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - Who was with you? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me 
Mr. BALL - What was that last name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton. 
Mr. BALL - What is the first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley. 
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton. 

2. Bill Shelley confirmed the presence of Mrs. Stanton in the doorway before Billy Lovelady came out and even before he himself came out:

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL - And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL - You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? 
Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

It should be noted that neither Bill Shelley nor Billy Lovelady would be able to spot Mrs. Sarah Stanton if she stood at Prayer Man's location. Taken together, it is impossible that Mrs. Stanton would get to the doorway at 12.25, at the time when Carolyne Arnold allegedly saw Lee Oswald on the second floor. The motorcade was due to arrive at 12.25, and that would be too late for Mrs. Stanton to start preparing for the motorcade as she was describing it to the members of her family.