Andrej Stancak

I do not know how much it helps, however, there is no way that there would be a "delayed" reaction to such a painful impact as a gunshot which Warren Commission tried to sell. In our pain research, we apply a laser beam to the back of participants' hands to elicit a moderate pain (5-6 on a scale from "no pain" (0) to "very strong pain (10)". The first cortical response caused by nociceptive sensors in the superficial layers of the skin comes at around 150-170 ms depending on how tall a person is. A motor response to a pain impact is first of reflex origin (a withdrawal or RIII reflex, it is mediated by the spinal cord), and only much later (>0.5 s) the conscious, behavioural adjustments occur.  In the context of the present discussion, a painful impact caused by a bullet would occur 3 Z-frames before the first visible motor response by John Connally. Being distracted does not really change the latencies of pain responses.   

Figure 3 in the linked paper shows the first cortical responses at 158 ms and 175 ms occurring in primary somatosensory cortex and operculo-insular cortex, respectively. These initial components are not affected by the direction of attentional focus towards or away from the source of pain.

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs10548-017-0613-8.pdf

David:

thank you for sharing with us your invaluable insights. I am puzzled by the photograph showing the bronze casket being lifted up via rear port stairs. The casket with the body weighed 280 kg. The picture shows only four agents carrying the casket (with the body), and one of them holds the casket with one hand. My point is whether the agents were carrying the full weight of 280 kg or only 200 kg. Of course, I do not have any data or idea on how could President's body be missing at this stage, however,  I am considering every option.

Thomas:

You failed to provide any evidence that Prayer Man was Mrs. Stanton. There were only two ladies who stood on the top platform: Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders. The message which you clearly missed in my thread "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?" is that after 54 years, eventually, both ladies have been identified in Darnell film and Altgens6. The short lady stands close to the glass door in the eastern part of the doorway, and this person, due to small body height could only be a woman. From the two missing ladies, the short lady in the eastern corner was Mrs. Sanders. This person can only be seen in one of the last frames of Darnell because her figure was blocked by Mr. Molina for the most of Darnell. Only when Mr. Molina stepped down one step did the figure of Mrs. Sanders pop up.

The other lady, Mrs. Stanton, was harder to identify because she stood in the cluster of people (Mr. Shelley, Mr. Lovelady, Mr. Williams). This lady changed her location from Altgens6 to Darnell, however, so did Mr. Lovelady and other people. I have not published any reconstruction of Altgens6 because it is not finished yet. Thus, the only location which I illustrated is the one when she stood already in the shadow (she was covered by shadow in Altgens6) and behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder. This lady (about 5'3'' - 5'4'') was taller than the short lady. She stood in the shadow and only a part of her head is visible. This person may be shielding her eyes with her right arm, however, it is difficult to be certain. 

And now comes the problem for Prayer Man=Stanton theory. Both previously missing and now discovered ladies can be seen in one and the same frame in which also Prayer man can be seen. This excludes the possibility that Prayer Man was Mrs. Stanton because she is there about in the center of the doorway and not at the western wall.  Here is a detailed view of Darnell frame  20130908-003922 which shows the original Darnell frame (top) and the processed images (middle, bottom). 

And maybe a better view of the face of the lady behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder:

It is only thanks to the 3D model that the white blob, largely covered by Mr. Shelley's head, can be decomposed into what belonged to him and what was not his. Just looking at the pictures does not help because the observer cannot have enough confidence in stating that there were actually two heads in the white blob.

Thus, you are very wrong in saying that I base my reconstruction only on Mrs. Sander's statement, although her testimony strongly corroborates my observations which is always good.

In contrast, you base your Stanton=Prayer Man theory only one statement by Mr. Frazier that he had spoken at one point, after Mr. Calvery reached the doorway,  with Mrs. Stanton. However, the timing provided by Mr. Frazier is very vague. As I explained to you in my earlier post, they could speak just few seconds after Darnell stopped filming. As Mr. Frazier had to turn to speak to Mrs. Stanton (I am quoting you) implies that Mr. Frazier did not speak to Prayer Man - he did not need to turn to speak to Prayer Man, however, he needed to turn to speak to Mrs. Stanton.

Unless you provide evidence that Prayer Man was a woman (5'2'') and that Prayer Man spoke to Mr. Frazier in Darnell, your theory has no substantiation at all. I think you know it and this is the reason for your continuous questioning of my work. You admit that you are doing in on behalf of a person who insulted not only the moderators of the Forum but also several Forum members including myself. Being dishonest and incompetent were the usual and actually minor insults I received from Sauron to whom you serve. Your sleazy request to post some graphics which you then would like to use to further discredit my work is unacceptable and very much the same which Sauron was doing while he was allowed to be in the company of true researchers in this Forum.

This thread is an embarrassing example of a very disruptive and insulting style of posting. If you have an alternative theory of who Prayer Man was, please provide evidence. So far, you have not provided any evidence.

This is my last post in this thread. You have challenged my work and I responded to all your queries. If you keep addressing me or my work in your current mode, I will put you on the "ignore" list.

Thanks, Michael. I am giving Thomas the last chance to show something, a result of his own thinking or a piece of original research. Then it is over as far as this thread is concerned. It cannot continue by Tommy constantly raising some would-be critical points which if I do not respond would hang on the Forum to prove that I failed to defend my work. A very unpleasant style, I can say.

Tommy:

it is up to you to convince people that Prayer Man turned to Mr. Frazier and talked to him. I asked you, and now you return the question? This is a silly game. Again, please provide evidence that Prayer Man was talking to Mr. Frazier in Darnell.

There is nothing wrong with the shadow in my model. The shadow is not determined by myself, it is the combination of the internal pieces of machinery of GoogleEarth and Sketchup which sets up the shadows based on the date and hour of the day. I have no control over the shadow other than setting the date and hour.

The area of the left hand reflecting the sunlight appears to be smaller than that in that in the right hand. I can see a brighter spot where the left hand is suggesting that a small area of the left hand also reflected the sunlight, and this is represented in my model. Of note, pushing the left hand just 1/2 inch backward would eliminate this reflection.  

Thomas:

Mr. Frazier does not speak to Prayer Man in Darnell. Prayer Man does not look at Mr. Frazier. They both just stare without saying a word. Mr. Frazier, according to his interviews did talk to Mrs. Stanton, and indeed, Mrs. Stanton is not at the spot where she was in Altgens6. It is all in the timeline. Mr. Frazier could have talked to Mrs. Stanton who stood to his left just few seconds after Darnell stopped filming. Mrs. Calvery was still down there, and some word exchange with Mr. Lovelady could still continue. The testimonies are too vague  to say when exactly did Mr. Frazier talk to Mrs. Stanton. Please note that Mrs. Stanton was indeed Mr. Frazier's closest neighbour in Darnell.  Mr. Frazier could just turn towards his left to communicate with Mrs. Stanton. This could happen just 1 second after Darnell stopped filming.

Would you please be able to indicate the frames in Darnell which show Mr. Frazier and Prayer Man talking to each other?

Tommy:

you do not need to Laugh Out Loud. The Prayer Man's figure is tightly linked to initial Sean Murphy's reconstruction of Lee Harvey Oswald's movements which were later refined by Bart. In my understanding of their theory, Lee Harvey Oswald was briefly on the 2nd floor to buy his Coke, and was returning via the front stairs when the first shot rang out. He wanted to know what was the excitement all about, and he entered the doorway via semi-opened door. Mrs. Sanders stood to the right (east) of the middle glass door and he saw more space in the western part of the doorway. He squeezed in the narrow passageway between Mrs. Shelley&Mrs. Stanton and Mr. Frazier, and ended up there, where he was captured by Wiegman and Darnell cameras. 

Lee had a habit to place the weight of his body on his right foot which may explain he stepped on the second step and remained standing like that. However, he appears to be frozen and not orienting himself to the events which most people were following, namely the Tripple Underspass through which the motorcade has just disappeared. Only Prayer Man and Mr. Frazier appear frozen. All other occupants adjust their positions and views (Billy Lovelady being the champion) to get the most of the scene. So, there is something peculiar in Prayer Man behaviour which may also explain the frozen, one-foot-down-one-foot-up stance. Does it make sense to you?

-----------------------------------

Now, to explain the problem with a small Prayer Man 5'2'' placed close to where "my" big 5'9'' Prayer Man is. The problem is with the arms of the small Prayer Man which would not reproduce the Darnell's Prayer Man. Please see here the analysis from my next article which has now been pushed aside by Altgens6.

The figure below shows in (A) shows the tall and the short Prayer Man. The plane above their heads is to demonstrate that both men are of equal heights. The green line on the landing shows that both men were aligned relative to the camera. The height of the step is 7 1/4' as it is in the Depository doorway.

You can see that the arms of the short Prayer Man are higher than the arms of the big Prayer Man. This is illustrated better in (B). The difference is 2'', which is enough to see a mismatch when overlaying with Darnell's still.

Another problem consists in the elbow-to-elbow distance. A shorter Prayer Man will also have his elbows closer together which will be reflected in Darnell scene as having the right elbow farther away from the red brick column. In the figure below (A), the pink transparent box delineates the small Prayer Man. This box is then inputted on the large Prayer Man and the difference is shown in (B). The difference is about 1 inch on each side. 

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

In other words, he or she couldn't have been standing either of the two ways Andre has PM standing in his two different graphics models (which both have PM standing with one foot on the top step and the other on the landing).  To wit, neither: 1) by balancing the toe of his or her left shoe on the landing, nor 2) in order to have that foot flat (or at least flatter) on the landing, having to bend his or her left knee in an awkward, leg-splaying manner.

Thomas:

Prayer Man, indeed, could stand the way I show with one foot on the second step and the other foot on the top landing. If you would review all Darnell frames carefully as I did you would find out that there is no frame showing Prayer Man's left foot with enough details allowing to decide about the exact position of his left foot. It was therefore up to me to figure out about his left foot. Two years ago, I suggested it could be twisted and the foot would rest on toes. In the more recent analysis, I had the left foot flat on the top landing. It could be both ways. What Darnell stills say is that the left leg was bent and it was not only the right hand which was illuminated with the sunlight but also the knuckles of Prayer Man's left hand and his left thigh. 

Please consider also the H-plane (the horizontal plane crossing Mr. Frazier's shoulder line) and the E-plane, the plane connecting Darnell's camera with Prayer Man's right Elbow. Those four planes define a bounding box in which Prayer Man could be (the antero-posterior dimension of the chest closing the box). 

Please consider this: it is not the same for Prayer Man's appearance to be a man 5'9'' and effectively standing on the second step or to be a person 5'2'' and standing one step higher (7''). In both cases, Prayer Man's head would touch the H-plane, however, the location of arms and the width of the body (including elbow-to-elbow width) would not be the same. The short Prayer Man would have his/her arms about 2 inches higher than Prayer Man 5'9'' standing with one foot on the second step.

Please consider that a plausible model of Prayer Man needs to reproduce the relationships with the rest of doorway occupants. My model does it. If Prayer Man's location would be in error, you would see clear mismatches relative to Prayer Man's neighbours or doorway landmarks. There are none, therefore, I was able to overlay the whole 3D scene onto Darnell still. Since all figures including Prayer Man match the original Darnell still, how can Prayer Man's location be wrong?

The quality of the model does not appear to you to be a strong argument at all. You give greater weight to your subjective and false views about how unpleasant the suggested posture is than to a solid 3D reconstruction in which all occupants match their originals. Again, you cannot achieve a match I show unless Prayer Man's location was correct.

The time which Prayer Man spent in the one-foot-down posture was between 1 and 2 minutes. We do not see him at his location in Hughes (despite all efforts I was not able to detect a clear figure of Prayer Man in Hughes film), however, he is at his post in Wiegman and Darnell. We do not know how long did Prayer Man stay in the doorway. He could stay for several seconds after Darnell stopped filming and theoretically, he could leave the doorway before Office Baker entered the building. We just do not know. My point is that Prayer Man kept his posture for a very short period of time. Again, please try the posture by yourself as I did many times. It is a stable and comfortable stance which would not cause any problems holding for few minutes or longer.

I am copying again one of my earlier comparisons of Poser11 manikin and Prayer Man in Darnell. Can you see any similarities?

People differ in the height of their inseams. For instance, the musician in the right-hand side of the Rolling Stone picture posted in your last message has an unusually high inseam. I did not adjust the inseam of Prayer Man to look as in Darnell because I struggled to identify it reliably from the blurred images. After all, my blog article to which you refer was about Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton, not about Prayer Man. As I explained several times already, I will re-analyse Prayer Man's location with the new, realistic model of the doorway which I hope will clear your doubts.

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Andrej,

 

In a nutshell, it's easier for me to believe that "PM" is a person about 5' 6" tall, either male or female, who's standing on the same flat surface as 6' 1/2" Frazier, and who appears to be dwarfed by Frazier only because he or she is standing somewhat behind, and a few feet farther from the camera than Frazier, ...

... than it is for me to believe that "PM" is a man of average height (or a tall woman) who is awkwardly standing with one foot about 7" inches below the other one.

 

--  TG

 

 

Thomas:

the effect of perspective on objects across the depth of the doorway in Darnell scene is about 1 inch. Thus, you cannot gain a reduction of the apparent body height of some 4  inches which you need to align with the height of Mr. Frazier's shoulder line as Prayer Man shows in Darnell  (5''2'').  If you push a person 5'6'' as close as possible to the western wall and glass door, you cannot achieve Prayer Man's head being crossed by the vertical pole of the door frame (as it is seen in Darnel). If you push a person, even your 5'6'' person, as far back as possible, you also move his right elbow farther away from the red brick column. Also, a person standing too much to the back ("few feet in a 3'9'' doorway is more than half of the depth of the doorway)  would be at a location at which the shadow area is wide compared to the front edge of the top landing where the shadow line is closer to the western wall. Thus, having Prayer Man in the back portion of the doorway also means that his hands would be fully covered by shadow. This is not what I see in Darnell. 

It is easy to say what you can believe in and what not. However, we are researchers and we want to know with a reasonable degree of certainty the truth about who Prayer Man was. The body height is a crucial aspect of the story but it can only be solved if also Prayer Man's location is taken on board. The Prayer Man's body height and his location in the doorway are interconnected as time and space in the Universe.

Fortunately, the problem of body height and location problem is solvable if all relevant aspects of Darnell scene are listed and a solution is designed which fits all ad-hoc criteria (constraints) which Darnell stills suggest. I am not interested in showing isolated, preliminary pictures, rather I wish to present a solid case addressing all aspects of Prayer Man's reconstruction.  

If you are convinced about your belief who Prayer Man was (a person 5'6''), please show your analyses, calculations, drawings, and conclusions. I am certainly very interested in studying your solution.

Gentlemen:

I was challenged by Thomas to explain the reasons for placing Prayer Man at a specific point in the doorway and assuming a specific posture. I see you are not convinced. Please feel free to continue your debate by explaining how exactly and where Prayer Man stood using your research and data. I will outline my point again using the current, realistic 3D model when the times comes albeit in a different thread. Please read my first post to Thomas's challenge if you wish to understand the complexities of the problem and reasons for placing Prayer Man at a particular location in the doorway. 

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Yes I remember that discussion a while back.  I remember taking a snap of Dealey from Maps and showing that the elapsed time from the last shot could allow all in white and the check skirt to walk or trot hysterically from their positions up to the steps in time to be captured in the film.

What film though? Prayer Man can be seen already in Wiegman film which was taken just seconds after the last shots. Any witnesses claiming to see an unknown person climbing up the steps during the shooting?

8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

But it's possible to put both legs onto the top like most normal people stand and move him back away from the camera.  This will also make him look smaller.  AS said it's impossible but in his top view there seems to be room.  

... however, Prayer Man pushed back like you show will not have the back of his right hand reflecting the sunlight, and his right elbow will be farther away from the red brick column. After overlaying then Prayer Man on your location there would be a gross misalignment between Darnell and the 3D model.  

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

On his website there's  a  top view and it appears there's  room to put PM back toward the corner

It is not possible to move Prayer Man more to the back only because there is a space there. He would not meet at least two constraints: 1. the dorsum of his right hand would not reflect the sunlight should he stand more to the back, 2. If he stood further back on the top landing, his right elbow would be too far from the red brick wall. 

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

it  very hard to believe  PM standing there for  the  longest time  with that leg down.

It is a comfortable and stable posture, please try it yourself.

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Andrej,

 

Thanks, but I don't understand WHY he would stand with all his weight on his right foot like that, as though he's ready to tumble (or be inadvertently tumbled) down the steps.

Not only that, but there's something unnatural about the model of him that I can't quite put my finger on.

Are the lengths of his legs, as measured by his inseams, the same and/or in correct proportion to his torso, as Frazier's DO appear to be?

Etc.

 

Thanks,

--  TG

 

Tommy:

Lee Harvey Oswald actually used to stand like this, placing the weight of his body on his right foot and pushing his left leg slightly forwards. I have placed examples of this in several threads in the past, however, the threads are somehow gone and forgotten. Let me show some examples of Lee's posture in which weight of his body is on his right foot. 

The manikin representing Buell Wesley Frazier was modified from a manikin downloaded from Sketchup Warehouse. It is a good manikin, however, his genesis is different from the manikin representing Prayer Man. The Prayer Man manikin was produced in Poser11 and it is a more accurate and faithful human model than a model downloaded from the 3D warehouse. It is much more work to model a human in Poser and this is the reason for modeling only Prayer Man in this way.  This explains the differences in appearance of Frazier's and Prayer Man's figures. 

The Prayer Man's stance proposed in my model is actually quite comfortable. Of course, I have tried it myself few times and experienced no discomfort. I can stand like this for whatever time needed. It is a stable posture.  

The posture proposed, with one foot down on the second step, is not a random solution. It is the only solution satisfying all constraints: 1. The Darnell plane (the plane paralleling the axis of Darnell lens and connecting with the vertical pole of the door frame, 2. The shadow plane, 3. The height plane defined as a horizontal plane crossing Frazier's neck/shoulder line, 4. The right elbow plane defined as the plane connecting Darnell camera with the edge of Prayer Man's right elbow. These four planes define bounding a box into which Prayer Man can be fitted. Anywhere else in the doorway and outside the box delineated by the four planes Prayer Man would not match Darnell's still.

As far inseam is concerned, I have not adjusted the manikin to have the inseam in the same height as Prayer Man because I struggled to identify it unequivocally in the blurred Darnell stills.  

Please find here few examples demonstrating Oswald's stance with placing the weight of his body on his right foot.

Tommy:

It is not easy to explain all details regarding Prayer Man's stance without properly documenting every aspect. I have started to work on a detailed analysis of Prayer Man's location and height but then changed priorities and began a 3D reconstruction of Altgens6 scene. I did not know how much time would it take. However, the analysis which was posted on April 19, 2016 in "Prayer Man in Darnell Film" basically holds ( https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/ ). 

The new analysis will benefit from a much-improved doorway model which now relies on realistic measurements of the doorway (thanks to Bart) and original 1964 dimensions of the doorway posted by Gary Murr. Thus, the current 3D model allows accurate overlays with historic photographs and the much-improved height and location estimates. It is, therefore, necessary to update the 2016 analysis of Prayer Man's height and location using the new model. This will entail also a new model of Prayer Man which is accomplished in Poser11 program (unlike all other human manikins). Since Prayer Man is modelled differently to have a complete control over his stance, head tilt, and hands posture, it also "feels" to be different compared to other manikins. However, his body proportions in the current model are those suggested by Poser11 and these are simply proportions of an average male. Of course, both legs are of equal lengths.

Before providing updated estimates of Prayer Man's location and height using the current (new) 3D model and a new manikin, it may be useful to explain some doorway features which logically lead to Prayer Man's location and height.

1. The depth of the doorway was only 3'9''. 

2. Prayer Man cannot stand right in the angle created by the western wall and the glass window   because the pole of the vertical door frame would not cross Prayer Man's head the way it does.

3. Prayer Man needs to stand in the front of the top landing else his right elbow would be too far from such landmarks as e.g., the red brick column or Lovelady's head.

4. If the back of Prayer Man's hand(s) reflects sunlight, this can be achieved only if he is at a certain location which is an intersection of at least two planes: the plane crossing Prayer Man's head and body and is aligned with Darnell camera lens (D-plane), the shadow plane (S-plane) securing that only the back of PM's hands and his left thigh but not his chest or head would be covered by the sunlight. Furthermore, the Prayer Man's right elbow needs to be in a certain specific distance from the red brick column and the top of his head needs to align with the plane crossing Frazier's shoulder line. Thus, there are four planes that need to be considered, plotted and visualised.

5. Prayer Man's height can only be 5'9'' which is the height of Lee Harvey Oswald or 5'2'' which would be a body height qualifying Prayer Man to be a woman. The location of PM determines the body height. If he stood with both his feet on the top landing, he would be 5'2'', however, s/he would not meet the constraint of the distance between his/her right elbow and e.g. the brick column to be exactly as it is in Darnell.  

6. Prayer Man cannot stand with both his feet on the 2nd step because his right elbow would be too close to the red column brick and his chest would be covered with sunlight, unlike the Darnell scene.

It is not that easy to visualise all these geometric constraints, and this is why I plan to address the problem once more using updated 3D model and a new manikin (fitted to this new 3D model). 

7 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

Andrej,

In the interest of making a complete picture, I was curious if you wanted to update this fine graphic with Carl Jones, the African-American gentleman seen in Altgens6 directly below and in front of Billy Lovelady?

Robin had an earlier thread that revealed it was Carl Edward Jones whose side profile is shown.  

Hope this helps.

Rick 

Hello Rick:

the scene depicted in my post refers to one and only one frame of Darnell film. In that film, Carl Jones cannot be seen at his Altgens6/Wiegman spot. I agree with Robin that it is Carl Jones. I have already modelled Carl Jones in Altgens6 and although the full analysis will be presented later along with the search for the missing lady (Mrs. Stanton), I see no reasons for not showing Carl Jones in Altgens6. In my reconstruction, Carl Jones stood with his left foot on the third step and his right foot on the second step from the bottom. Only this location ensured seeing his face exactly as it is seen in Altgens. Should he stand with both feet on the second step (as in Wiegman), he would be too much out of the doorway and his face would be too large.

Figure legend: Mr. Carl Jones in Willis8, Altgens6 and a 3D model of the doorway. A. A cropped view of Willis8 photograph [ftn] showing a tall Afro-American man, Carl Jones, standing in the doorway. B. A cropped view of doorway occupants from the composite Altgens6 picture shown in Figure 2. C. Overlay of Mr. Carl Jones's figure in Altgens6 composite and the 3D model. D. The figure of Mr. Carl Jones in the 3D model. E. Mr. Jones's figure from a southeast view. F. Mr. Carl Jones with the measuring stick (7') paralleling the vertical axis of his body. The checkerboard squares on the measuring stick correspond to inches. Mr. Jones measured 6'2'' - 6'3''.

8 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Is your Shelley the man in the coat and tie, or the person behind him?

29 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Does PM still have one foot down from the top?

 

 

He sure does, in my analysis. After completing the analysis of Altgens6 I will return to the Prayer Man height/location.

In fact, it seems that not only Billy Lovelady is on steps in Darnell but also, not surprising, Bill Shelley. Bill Shelley stands at the spot on the top landing which he also occupied in Altgens6 and Wiegman film. The lady wearing a dark headscarf appears to stand as if talking while the lady wearing a white headscarf is moving continuously up the steps over successive frames in Darnell. 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

It would be great if you would show us a frame and point out where Sanders and Stanton are.

 

 

Sandy:

there is a thread on this forum on this topic called : "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?", and this contains the reconstruction of figures of both ladies. You  can also read the full story here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/ . These sources also specify the only Darnell frame which shows a person who I believe was Mrs. Sanders. 

I am currently working on a 3D reconstruction of Altgens6 scene because some fellow researchers doubt that a person (Stanton?) could stand in the space between Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley. I thought I would be finished in some two weeks and now I see that 2 months may not be enough. The thing is that accuracy is required and this costs a lot of time.  For instance, I never knew that Billy Lovelady had a slightly exaggerated kyphosis causing his forward head posture and a slightly rounded neck. This small detail actually contributed to the V-shape shadow in Lovelady's neck region which is something that puzzled many researchers analyzing Altgens6. I will post the full reconstruction of Altgens6 on "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton...?" thread in few weeks time.

Here are some pictures documenting Billy Lovelady's forward head posture (not too relevant in the context of this thread...):

Tommy:

There were only two women on the top landing during and immediately after the shooting: Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton. Both these two women both can be seen in one and the same frame of Darnell film in the presence of Prayer Man. So, how can Sarah Stanton be Prayer Man?

 Mrs. Stanton did not say that she stood alone in the western part of the doorway where Prayer Man can be seen or did she? 

 Please read the testimonies of the relevant persons and conclude for yourself if anyone gave any indication that Mrs. Stanton had stood in the western corner:

1. Mrs. Sanders: "To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others." (3/19/1964). 

This testimony implies that Mrs. Stanton could not be too far from Mrs. Sanders who stood in the east part of the doorway. Thus, Mrs. Stanton could stand at best in the center-east part of the doorway to allow Mrs. Sanders to say that Mrs. Stanton stood next to her.

2. Mrs. Stanton:     “When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas, Mr. Otis Williams, 3429 Southwestern, Dallas, Mrs. R.E. Sanders, 4226 Delmar, Dallas, and Billy Lovelady, 7722 Hume Drive, Dallas. (3/18/1064)

This testimony says that Mrs. Stanton stood in a cluster of people seen in the center of the doorway: Williams, Lovelady, Shelley, and Mrs. Sanders (she cannot be seen in Altgens6). Mrs. Stanton does not say that she stood close to the western wall or that Mr. Frazier was her closest neighbour which would be the case should she stand at Prayer Man's location.

3. Mr. Shelley for the Warren Commission:

Mr. SHELLEY – Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL – And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY – Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she’s with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL – You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY – Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL – That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY – yes.

Mr. Shelley says that Mrs. Stanton stood with them just in front of the glass door, not that she stood alone in the western corner. Mr. Shelley in no case admitted that Mrs. Stanton stood in the western corner of the doorway, away from the group of three people in the center of the doorway.

Billy Lovelady's testimony is equivocal in the sense that it is not entirely clear if Mrs. Stanton stood to his left or to his right, however, in every case he wanted to say that she stood behind him.

So, we have witness testimonies of two ladies and other doorway occupants saying that both ladies stood far away from the western corner of the doorway, and we have a photographic evidence (Darnell frame) showing both ladies in the presence of Prayer Man. Can this be enough data to convince you that Mrs. Stanton was not Prayer Man?

Tommy:

if we can believe Mr. Frazier, he was at a spot from which he could see people coming from the loading area of the Depository building along the Houston street. Apparently, he was on the first step from the bottom and even further down on the sidewalk approaching Houston Street when he allegedly saw Lee Harvey Oswald. This is the transcript of his interview for the Sixth Floor Museum:

"So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up  beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book building was Lee Oswald.
Mr. Fagin: walking along this side of the building?
Mr. Frazier: Yes.
Mr. Fagin: Houston Street"

What Mr. Frazier claims in this interview is that he did not return to the Depository and straight into the basement (his Warren Commission testimony) but that he exited the doorway and walked towards Houston Street where he saw Lee Harvey Oswald as he was leaving the Depository building. You have a choice to decide which of Mr. Frazier's two scenarios was correct and true, the one he conferred to the Warren Commission or his later interviews. In the interview for the Sixth Floor Museum, Mr. Frazier also claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald did not bring a lunch to work which contradicts Lee's own statements he made during his interrogations. Mr. Frazier's denial of a lunch sack in Oswald's possession has certainly worsened the things for Lee Harvey Oswald.  

Now, where is any guarantee that Mr. Frazier would truthfully disclose the identity of Prayer Man?

Tommy:

The possibility that some researchers, including myself, pursue  is that Prayer Man was Lee Harvey Oswald. You asked the right question: who was Prayer Man if every of Depository employees' whereabouts is well known and none of them reported to stand in the western part of the doorway,  It is the matter of debate and research to establish the body height of this person which I believe was 5'9''. This body height would qualify this person to be a man. So, we likely have here a Caucasian, a man, measuring exactly as Oswald measured, and displaying a hairline similar to Oswald's hairline. Mr. Frazier, to my knowledge, was not able or willing to say who Prayer Man was, however, he clearly testified something which was not true during his Warren Commission testimony: how can then be trusted in this particular issue? To recall, Mr. Frazier said that he has returned to the Depository and went to the basement soon after the shooting. However, in his later interviews, Mr. Frazier said he actually had seen Oswald walking on the Houston street because he (Mr. Frazier) was in front of the Depository entrance. While Mr. Frazier always spoke nicely about Lee Oswald, all his statements, including those regarding the package Oswald brought to work, were very damning for Lee Harvey Oswald. My point is that Mr. Frazier still covers his role in framing Lee Harvey Oswald and he would not answer the question who Prayer Man was even if it were Lee Harvey Oswald.   

Tommy:

there were two ladies on the top landing who have been missing for 54 years. They were Mrs. Sarah Stanton and Mrs. Pauline Sanders. One of the ladies was short and was standing very close to the glass door in the eastern part of the doorway.  This lady was not seen in Algens6 because the view of her figure was obstructed by Bill Shelley. She was not seen in in Wiegman film because this film never captured the eastern part of the doorway where she stood. The short lady was not seen in most frames of Darnell because she was behind Mr. Molina who just happened to step down one step and that was the reason for seeing her in one of the final frames of Darnell film. This short lady, according to the testimonies, could be Pauline Sanders.

The other lady who by exclusion was Mrs. Sarah Stanton is seen in Altgens6. Her figure is largely hidden by Billy Lovelady, however, a small bright blob located between the heads of Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Shelley suggests that there was a person in that location in Altgens6. There are faint contours of that lady in the shadow behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder can be seen in Darnell. The point is that that frame in Darnell shows not only the short lady )Sanders) and this other lady (Stanton) but also Prayer Man. Thus, Prayer man could not be Mrs. Stanton as there were no other ladies besides Stanton and Sanders on the top landing.

You can read details here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/   or in the thread on this forum: "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?"