Andrej Stancak

Linda:

I have nothing else but the highest admiration for your work and understand well the effort and the states you went through while searching for both ladies. I also appreciate your investments into the memberships in various platforms. Your findings could not be brought to the daylight without the commitment you showed. If it were possible to retrieve the pictures of both ladies just by googling them, they would be already displayed. Your discoveries are essential as without having pictures of both ladies. It is not relevant that somebody else watched and posted Mrs. Stanton's photograph without first asking you. 

As far as the picture of Mrs. Stanton displayed by the other person, I viewed it and found out was buried in a swamp of pathological, hateful, ridiculous and imbecile statements. 

Back to your pictures. I think you were successful in finding Mrs. Stanton's pictures, one from her childhood, one when she was young (maybe in her twentieth?). The child and the lady in the right-hand side picture of the double picture appear to be the same persons. Mrs. Stanton photographed with her son is the same person as the lady in the right-hand panel. It is difficult to recognise, however, Mrs. Stanton wore glasses, both in the double picture and in the picture showing her with her son. The picture when she is photographed with her son was taken when she was already older, maybe even retired. However, please have a look on the chin, on the back seated mouth, constant smile, and importantly, the curve of her hair on the right side of her face. 

So, your work was more than successful, and a big thanks go your way.

Well, the point is that Pauline Saunders which Linda and Bart introduced in this thread stands at her spot in the east part of the doorway in Darnell, and at the same time, Prayer Man is seen at his usual spot. So, why overlaying this short lady (Pauline Saunders) over Prayer Man if it was impossible for her to be Prayer Man, just because she stands somewhere else?

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

you tried to lie with your 3D animation by stretching a leg way down onto the second step to "prove" that it's Oswald

The mannequin of Prayer Man had an inseam at 49% of his body height which is an average inseam height in male population (I checked a few weeks ago). This inseam height was suggested by Poser and I just accepted it because I was focusing on the remaining 14 human figures. I did not try to extend the mannequin's legs to make him Prayer Man, I worked with the model and legs suggested by Poser. The figure you disliked showed Prayer Man only for comparison purposes - the article as such was about Mrs. Stanton and Mrs. Sanders, not about Prayer Man. Actually, the creation of a Prayer Man model with proper height estimates etc. was further down the list of my tasks. However, the height of inseam and therefore the leg length has nothing to do with the overall body height of the mannequin/Prayer Man - it was 5'9'' irrespective of inseam height. The Prayer Man mannequin is currently being remodeled to one exactly matching Oswald's body proportions and fitted to Prayer Man locations. Actually, I have already done it and found the match excellent, better than the match obtained with a mannequin having inseam at 49%. Unfortunately, I am stuck with this project due to my academic duties such as marking and writing a grant proposal and cannot complete this work as quickly as I would wish. This modeling work requires full concentration. Other mannequins in my doorway model were also not accurate but no one seemed to be concerned or considered these inaccuracies as my intention to lie. For instance, Lovelady's figure in my doorway model was only approximate, Mr. Williams's model had a too a large upper arm, etc. We have now two new women, discovered by Linda, who need to be incorporated into the revised model as well. My model showed both these ladies, however, their newly discovered photographs allow to model them in a detailed way. Making the details is what costs a lot of time and effort. The 3D project is in development and therefore revisions will be made regularly to get to the bottom of the problems. Did Prayer Man's model have his legs too long? Fine, I can fix it. Actually, I made quite some work on this Forum to understand better Lee Oswald's posture, and to make his model as perfect as possible. I did not try to mislead or lie to anyone. I am also not insulting or attacking anyone in the process.

Linda posted another of her discoveries on Find A Grave, this time on Mrs. Sarah Stanton: 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/152413470/sarah-juanita-stanton#view-photo=170506335

Linda was not sure if the two pictures referred to Sarah or Sarah's sister Wanda, or each of two pictures to one of the sisters. The lady in the right-hand picture seems to wear glasses which causes her eyes not having the right shape.

I have compared the lady in the right-hand picture with a lady seen in Willis 8. The lady is chatting with a man in a white shirt and is tall enough to be able to see over his shoulder. The facial features of Willis8 lady and the lady which Linda tentatively identified as possibly Mrs. Stanton are remarkably similar - the haircut, the backward positioned mouth, protruding chin and eyes covered with a rounded area which could be sunglasses.  The partial face of a person which I think can be seen in Altgens6  (top right) would match this lady's forehead and the overall body height. If the lady in Willis8 is the same lady as Linda showed in Find A Grave, we know how Mrs. Stanton was dressed on that fateful Friday, her body height and her facial features.

The lady in Find A Grave pictures and the Willis8 lady both show a big smile. This is a bit surprising in the Willis picture which was taken during the time when people already knew that the President has been shot. 

32 minutes ago, Linda Giovanna Zambanini said:

If she was standing on the first step down you can see she was shorter than Prayer Man/LHO, who was also standing on the first step down from the landing. 

Linda: 

If Mrs. Sanders and the highlighted person seen in the eastern part of the doorway in Darnell are one and the same person, then this person could only stand on the top landing, very close to the glass window, exactly as Mrs. Sanders had testified. I did some height estimates for this person and my analysis suggests that she was about 5' or 4'11''. You can find details of my height analysis on http://thejfktruthmatters.worpress.com  (January 31).

Actually, the bottom of the three pictures showing Mrs. Saunders puts her as the second smallest person in the back row, suggesting that she was shorter than an average woman in her age category.

What an important find, and a good piece of detective work by Linda. Mrs. Sanders had a short hair and looking like a boy's hair cut (top picture in Bart's post) which is also seen in Darnell still.

http://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Bart,

Thanks for your comments.  I think Andrej has become frustrated with trying to convince folks of his model.  I hope it is nothing I have said that helped him toward that decision. 

I feel if he could develop a model showing Prayer Man as Oswald, that would be a good thing. 

Thanks, John. I appreciate your interest. I will resume posting when I have the doorway model fitted with the "new" mannequin which is based fully on Lee Oswald's body proportions. In the meantime, I am enjoying reading posts in several very interesting threads on this Forum . I wish you the best of luck with your analyses.  

Chris:

My intention with that doorway was not to be accurate. This was an approximate arrangement of columns to show that Prayer Man on the second step could not reach where he was shown in the post accusing me of a fraud. The blocks do not stand on the positions as they should in Darnell, the boxes should not be boxes because a box has a different depth than the head and is not rounded, and the view angle was only approximate. Sorry, but I will not develop anything around this example. You are wasting your time and I will not respond to this doorway model anymore.

Chris:

the doorway you overlayed is not my doorway. The doorway dimensions on the downloaded doorway are not correct. It is not my business to correct them. What the example shows is that when you draw columns of 6', 5''9'' and 5'2'', there will be a reproducible relationship between the columns such that the two shorter columns will match the line corresponding to the lower edge of the head on the tall column. The downloaded model is not suitable for an overlay of the kind you show. I will not spend any time on the downloaded doorway, sorry.

I have now checked your downloaded model and did what my  own model does. The height of the step in the downloaded model is 0.5 cm smaller compared to real measurements, however, this is a small difference. I have placed a person 5'2'' on the top landing (pink), another person 5'9'' on the second step (green) and Mr. Frazier as a white column (6'05''). The red rectangle on the while column corresponds to the size of Mr. Frazier head. The doorway is shown from approximate Darnell's perspective. The camera field of view needs to be on 16.

Where do you see any problem, any difference compared to my analyses? Please confirm that you can or cannot replicate what I have done with the downloaded model. Please note that if you draw a horizontal line through the bottom of the red square you meet the top edges of the two other columns.

Can you measure the height of the step  - it needs to be 7 1/8''.  Please  place a 5'9'' column on the second step and a 5'2'' column on the top landing, and please keep the 6' one at Mr. Frazier's location. Then please show. It does not matter that you cannot make humans (this takes the most of time). You can indicate  using colour ) about 9'' 6/10 (or just 10'') as a square on the 6' column - this would correspond to Mr. Frazier's head. 

I wish that you stop accusing me of frauds immediately. These are serious accusations and you need to have a solid proof before saying it to the whole board. I expect your apologies. This cannot continue as if nothing happened.

50 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Stancak said his future work would concentrate on dealing with correcting that but we've yet to see it

Actually, I have already posted the new James Poser mannequin with shorter legs (only about 1/2 inch longer than the very final version achieved in collaboration with Chris) in one of my previous posts. It is the last post with series of graded overlays. The new mannequin with short legs matched Prayer Man very well. 

To avoid any arguments about leg size in future and to save any revision work, I waited until the James Poser model settled down. Chris approved it about two days ago, and I still wished to check if the final James Poser model would fit Lee Oswald's body in some other picture, which I did yesterday. 

You need to wait to see James Poser in Sketchup which is maybe what you are asking for. This is a lengthy process and I will post results when I am satisfied with the Sketchup  model. To explain, I need to reduce the number of triangles as Sketchup cannot handle a large number of triangles exported from Poser 11.1, and this step alone takes quite a lot of time. Then, I need to change colours manually in small patches using a brush tool. The most difficult part though is sculpting the figure using Artisan4Sketchup to achieve the best match of the mannequin's head with Lee Oswald's head. It is similar to sculpting in clay. I am not sure you understand how much work this process entails, however, I hope you trust that after working on this project for almost three years I would not give up the opportunity to place an as-accurate-as-possible model of Lee Oswald into the doorway for the first time.  

I would appreciate if you would reconsider your style of posting which is becoming increasingly personal. Why don't you make a blog and write down your ideas or your findings? It may help you to find a balance and be absorbed by projects which have some value. For the rest of us, it would allow us to understand your ideas and your work.

4 minutes ago, John Butler said:

Weigman has a shadow from the wall on a Billy Lovelady figure that is nearly vertical.

John:

the little I know about Billy Lovelady's location in Wiegman film tells me that he stood close to the central railing and that area would be covered by shadow maybe at some 5 PM on that fateful day. Wiegman film is all right, no tampering in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Stancak is trying to convince us that taking a 5-9 figure and dropping one leg down onto the lower step will make someone shrink that much. The figure looks way too small to be anatomically or "real world" correct and should be "taller. Watch Oswald grow in the GIF below

The height of Prayer Man cannot be over 5'2'' (should he stand on the top landing) or over 5'9'' (should he stand on the second step) because the top of Prayer Man's head in such case would exceed the shoulder/chin line in Mr. Frazier's figure. I have listed the constraints and landmarks which can be used to identify Prayer Man's location and body height in my 2016 post (Figure 2):

https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/prayer-man-in-darnells-film/

I will address the problem of Prayer Man's body height again using a realistic doorway model (and also a new Lee Oswald's mannequin) which measures were not available to me at that time. 

Let us look at early childhood photographs depicting Lee Oswald's stance. I browsed Robert Groden's book: The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald (Penguin Studio Books, New York, 1995) to locate Lee's child photographs.

The picture below (page 5 in Groden's book) shows little Lee holding a catch while on a fishing trip. Lee could have been 3 or 4 years old. The following details of Lee's stance are of interest:

Lee stood with his right foot backward and his right foot is rotated slightly outward compared to his left foot which points straight forward. His weight rests predominantly on his right foot causing slight arching of his body toward his right. Please note his unusually long forearm. Lee's figure was retouched from the waist below, perhaps to create an illusion that he wore pants to avoid some embarrassment from the fact that he was naked.

The next picture with little Lee shows him on the yard of the Ridgley West Elementary School (page 9 in Robert Groden's book). Lee seems to have his right leg slightly backward, his hips tilted slightly towards his right, his torso leaning slightly backward, his right shoulder maybe dropped a bit. Interestingly, Lee's left hand appears to be in approximate Prayer Man posture. 

To validate James Poser's body proportions, I have adjusted his posture to match young Lee Oswald. While I was mostly interested in seeing if James would match Lee Oswald in another photograph in such landmarks as the height of inseam, the height of the head and neck and the length of the arms, the model also provides some insights into how Lee Oswald used to stand. 

The figure below is young Lee photographed on a sunny day (the left-most panel) and James Poser adjusted to match Lee's body (the right-most panel). The panels in between of these two panels are overlays of the two images at blending rate of 30% and 50%. 

After seeing what I hope is a very good match, James was rotated in different directions to check what would his stance look like from other angles. The figure shows a top view, top-left view, and top-front view. It is interesting to see that Lee stood, when offered to pose for a picture and assumed his natural stance, with his right foot backward and rested his body weight on his right foot. The right-most panel shows James (in Lee's pose) from approximate Darnell's view. There are remarkable similarities of this stance with the one Prayer Man shows in Darnell: the right foot is backward, the body torso is tilted towards his right, the right shoulder is dropped, and his head slightly tilted towards his right. Give James steps and he will drop his right foot on the lower step to get even more support. His right foot was his pivot.

The way we stand is our signature. It refers to a motor program stored in subcortical structures within our brains and unless volition is employed to overcome these motor programs, we tend to show the same style. My point is that the pose displayed by young Lee Oswald is his typical pose. Cannot help myself, who else from the Depository employees besides Lee Oswald would stand the way Prayer Man did?

John:

Sarah Stanton, like other doorway occupants, changed her location across films and Altgens6 picture. In Darnell, she stood just behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder. I have dressed her in a white shirt in my reconstruction, however, this I cannot know or confirm. Mrs. Stanton might have her right forearm raised in Darnell's still which I can depict in the next revision.     

Chris:

please find here another model version of Lee Oswald's body. I had to change quite many dimensions to achieve a match. The right-hand panel shows a 69'' measuring stick along the body, and the middle panel is James Poser himself. The left-hand panel is the overlay of James and Lee Oswald at 50% with some landmarks which are important for future matching of this figure with Prayer Man. These landmarks include the top of the head, the bottom of the chin, shoulder level, cubital fossae, waist, "inseam", and knees. 

I wonder if you would approve this James Poser as a good model of Lee Oswald. Thanks.

Gentlemen:

can we cool it down?  I am thankful to Tom and Michael for their support.  It is important to know that someone is following the  3D doorway project. 

Thomas: you may not have spotted that the whole recent activity on this thread aims at changing the current mannequin that was based on Poser 11.1 default male model (inseam at 49% of body height) for a new mannequin matching Lee Harvey Oswald's body in all essential aspects. I have already suggested one mannequin last week - it was the mannequin named James Poser. This mannequin was adjusted to match Lee Oswald as he was photographed by the NO PD, and the body proportions are being checked by Chris.  You could see in my recent posts on this thread that this Oswald-like mannequin with relatively short legs and long torso fitted Prayer Man in Darnell very well, actually better than the default male mannequin because the long torso of Oswald-like mannequin did not require tilting Prayer Man towards his right that much as in the current model.

Once this step is completed, I will take the mannequin and compare it with other existing pictures (there are not many) showing the whole Lee Oswald's body from a front view. Then, I will import this agreed Lee Oswald-like mannequin in his Darnell posture into Sketchup and will change colors and triangulation and will also sculpt the shirt sleeves a bit. Of course, I will also sculpt the head shape, hairline and some facial features to match Lee Harvey Oswald. Finally, I will replace all figures in my blog post on Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton with the new Prayer Man mannequin if a figure contained Prayer Man. Only then will I be able to resume my work on Altgens6, followed by the reconstruction of Prayer Man's body height in Darnell and finishing with Wiegman stills.  

Chris is a well-respected researcher in high esteem on this forum, and I am privileged to receive his feedback and help on the issue of Oswald's body proportions. Chris certainly had his reasons to express his view on the identity of Prayer Man which I fully respect. Quite many people think that Prayer Man was actually a woman, I have no problem with that, however, I would like to complete my long-term 3D reconstruction project which may shed some light on this issue. While it is easy to write a short sentence, a recycled question, or just to bump some previously posted picture, it is more difficult to follow a certain thread for a long time, to invest time, effort and funds just to push the knowledge a bit further. I have chosen the latter path. 

4 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Regardless, have you seen Chris Davidson's enhancement work on "Prayer Man's" face as it appears in Wiegman?

This has been discussed at length in 2016 in a large Prayer Person thread which has been moved to JFK Research folder. You will find there not only my views but also views of other researchers on this problem. 

2 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

In the interest of good-natured "research" and "collaboration,

Sorry, this is not how you present yourself on this forum.

7 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Have you seen it yet?  Hint:  It's in bold red text.

Go and read: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/

John:

please check my January 31 post at https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2018/01/ . This is certainly a more accurate account of reasons why Prayer Man could not be Sarah Stanton. For instance, the short lady in purple dress was most likely Pauline Sanders, not Sandra Styles as Thomas proposes. Of course, the whole height and location analysis refutes Sarah Stanton as Prayer Man as well because she would have to be 5'9'' and that she was not. Prayer Man did not look at Mr. Frazier in Darnell, and therefore there is not even a hint that Prayer Man was talking to Mr. Frazier. However, this does not disturb Thomas at all. His beliefs are above any analysis, at least in his own mind. Mr. Frazier's statement that he had turned to "Sarah" after Gloria Calvary came to announce the killing could have occurred just 1 second (or more seconds) before or 1 second (or more) after the 2.7-second snippet of Darnell's film in which Prayer Man could be seen. There is no logic and no evidence in what Thomas argues, and so he just bumps my work and phrases it at best in an ironic but usually in a worse than ironic way.

17 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Andrej,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TpCqAW19guUqXmzyu0nvKMhDgC4Dt0BU/view?usp=sharing

I took the new James Poser and scaled him down at 96.5% (2.5inches too tall) to match the existing Oswald height.

Is Poser the correct height now or do I need to upscale Oswald to Poser's height?

Just to be clear, does the measurement via the checkered path(30 inches mentioned) equal your leg length (not the inseam) for Oswald?

 

 

... cannot cancel what I started earlier...