Andrej Stancak

Bart:

I wonder where does your bitter tone come from. I am surely not the one who just says that some person in Darnell or in any other picture is this or that. I am actually the one who tries to bring as much empirical support as possible to name the doorway occupants.

I see you would not like to analyse Darnell's still to check if two men shielding their eyes and both wearing white shirts can be found in Darnell. Please find here  Darnell still with rough contours of the two men. Their arms speak the most. The man delineated with red is Otis Williams, the one I already showed in Altgens two posts back. Mr. Williams changed arms earlier (already seen in Wiegman)  as he used his right arm in Altgens6 and his left arm in Darnell. Mr. Williams also stepped up one step during the period separating Altgens6 and Wiegman. The other man delineated with blue lines is Joe Molina, the man shielding his eyes with both arms in Altgens6.

I hope this helps.

Bart:

why do you believe the FBI report such as this? Mr. Williams was "advised" by the FBI to say some nonsense to create a complete havoc in testimonies. The reason for creating this mess was to ensure that no reconstruction of Lee Oswald's movements was possible. "Immediately" is a vague term. It may have appeared immediately to Mr. Williams but it lasted a minute or two until he headed back to the building. The low credibility of witness testimonies and their vagueness is the reason for looking closely on the photographs such as Darnell. If you would analyse Darnell carefully, you would see a man standing close to the central railing and shielding his eyes with one arm (Mr. Williams) and another man also wearing a white shirt and also shielding his eyes and standing few feet to the east relative to Mr. Williams. This man was Joe Molina, the same man visoring with both arms in Altgens6. Mr. Molina wore a short-sleeve shirt, Mr. Williams had a long-sleeve shirt.

Fifteen seconds after the last shot, the time when Darnell recorded the Depository, is a very short time. The cars very moving fast in direction to Tripple Underpass, people were screaming, running in different directions. Why would anyone want to leave the doorway right away. Maybe first ovecoming the shock and seeing what comes next. This is what the doorway occupants did during the first 15 seconds. While you may say that this is a speculation, the photographs do not lie. It requires time and effort to understand the assassination photographs and I do not assert that I understand every single bit. 

This is snapshot of my work aimed at proving the presence of Mrs. Stanton in Altgens6. As promised in this thread in January, I made this reconstruction but the final touches are missing. This particular image refers to the reconstruction of Mr. Shelley's figure, however, Mr. Williams and Mr. Molina are seen well in this reconstruction. Mr. Molina stands on the second step and Mr. Williams on the third step in Altgens6. A = Mr. Shelley. B. Zoomed view of Altgens6 composite. C. The 3D model of the doorway showing Carl Jones, Bill Shelley, Mrs. Reese, Mr. Williams and Mr. Molina. D = overlay of B and C proving the match betwen the model and Altgens6.

23 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

That is Otis Williams, and he left straight after Wiegman, hence him not being there in Darnell.

He took the back stairs up to the 4th floor,.

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/otis-williams/

Miss Hine's testimony for the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in? 
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. 
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names? 
Miss HINE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. Who were they? 
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir. 

13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Stanton was short

Bart:

Sarah Stanton was 5'4''-5'6'' and this body height corresponded to a tall lady back in 1963. Mrs. Stanton's body height is known from the interview with her relatives and from the comparison of her figure with the figure of her son Larry. Larry was 6'-6'1'' and Mrs. Stanton reaches to the level of Larry's nose. The distance between the top of the head and nose in someone who is 6' is 7''. Thus the best approximation of Mrs. Stanton body height is 5'5'', falling into the middle of the 5'4''-5'6'' interval conferred by Mrs. Stanton's relatives.

I wonder who was the man shielding his eyes with both arms in Altgens6, Wiegman and Weaver, and with his right arm in Darnell. This man never stood on the top landing in any of these documents and he was in the east side of the doorway. To understand the blurry pictures of this sort, one needs to follow the dynamics of a person's location and posture over the films and pictures. This man did not evaporate in Darnell, or did he?

I would like to contribute with funds to cover the EF running costs. Please let us know how can we do it.

If there was an en entry wound in the right temple and an exit wound in the right occipital region close to the midline, how can we see the massive outburst of tissue and blood upwards in a straight line in Z313? There should have been also a damage in the right central region of the head else all the material could only be expelled towards the back. If the wounds are only those two (right temple - right occipital close to midline), the Z313 could only show what it shows after if it had been altered.

Bart:

I do not know how many of the ladies standing in front of the building were able to get to the steps of the doorway in some 15 seconds. A chance is that they stood there on the lower steps all right during the shooting but could not be captured in Altgens6 or Wiegman. 

Did you consider that the figure labelled "Sarah Stanton" in your image may actually be the man (Joe Molina in my view) who was shielding his eyes with both arms in Altgens6, Wiegman, and Weaver and possibly only with his right arm in Darnell? This person was clearly a step up about 14-15 frames before the frame you analysed.  Prior to the frame with Mrs. Sanders, there are frames which are very blurred at that spot and the man may have stepped down one step (and this is the reason why Pauline Sanders can be seen in one of the last frames - this man's arm does not obstruct any longer the view of that particular at which Pauline Sanders is seen). I studied this part of the image for a long period of time, and what appears to be a person with burnt out face and light-coloured hair I interpret as a bent forearm of the man seen 14-15 frames (less than 1 second) ahead. Of course, I can be wrong.

Well, I fully agree that the FBI statements taken from the immediate witnesses to the President's killing were not truthfull. Besides Mrs. Stanton's relatives, we have now another confirmation by the daughter of Judith McCully. The real whereabouts of Lee Harvey Oswald were effectively blurred allowing for the second floor encounter of Lee Oswald and Officer Baker..

This is a good find, Bart. So, there was someone there very close to the east wall and standing on the 4th step who remains to be identfied. Did Judith's daughter conferred any other details, e.g. about Vicky Adams or Officer Baker?

While I have no doubts that the fatal head shot came from the front, I am not sure where from it actually came. President had his head turned slightly towards his left, and a shot from the front from Grassy Knoll would likely exit from the left part of the brain. There would be a risk to Jackie Kennedy too. The trajectory would rather point to the South Knoll as the late Sherry Fiester suggested. There could be a shooter in Grassy Knoll area, however, that could either deliver a different front shot (neck?) or serve as a decoy.

Actually, I wrote a blog article addressing the weight of President's brain.

https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/1500-g/

This is an amazing interview which explains and nails down several important acpects of the medical part of President Kennedy's death. First, the wound in the parietal region with a missing bone was, according to James Jenkins's report, practically the same as Parkland doctors had described. Second, there was a surgery on President's head possibly to cover the parietal wound with the scalp. Third, the situation in the neck wound was very unlikely the situation which Dr. Perry left after making his tracheotomy. According to Dr. Jenkins, a tracheotomy would never be done in a way possibly damaging other neck organs.  Fourth, Mr. Jenkins confirmed that President's body arrived in a shipping casket and early on, maybe 6.30PM and via the back entrance. 

Thanks for posting this link, and thanks to Mr. Jenkins and Mr. Bet-David for this revealing interview.

This is an important piece of work and it will take me a while to go through it slowly and carefully.

Jim, do you think that the JFK's pro-integration policy had actually mobilised the Dallas police against him so that it was then natural for many of them to collude in the assassination plot? I read books about Dallas history and about the roots of white supremacy in Texas in the sixties and earlier, and have also contacted Bill Minutaglio to ask him if he could explain me the weight of the integration issue in Dallas in the sixties. It was a major issue, maybe the leitmotif of Dallas life in 1963. Many police officers had their houses in Oak Cliff and the housing integration threatened to de-evaluate their homes and push them out. Further, a police officer 1960' would be right- or ultra-right,  a racist, a member of a Baptist community, possibly a member of KKK, and he would not treat black people as equal. With JFK stepping on gas with integration, the aversion towards JFK in the ranks of Dallas police grew too.

Steve:

it seems I did not understand your joke. Or was your last post a joke?

Francois:

thanks for explaining your views. I reckon that we cannot help each other too much at this stage. 

8 hours ago, François Carlier said:

It will NEVER happen.
Mark my words.
Never in a million years can anyone produce a picture of Lee Oswald on the front steps of the TSBD.
He was not there. He was on the sixth floor.
What makes me say that ? Easy. Of course, we have the physical evidence and the scientific evidence in this case.
But Oswald's behavior is a very good indication that he was the assassin.
His whole behavior in front of the police, and even his attitude in front of his brother.
Clearly, if Oswald had been on the steps of the Book Depository when JFK's motorcade drove onto Elm Street, he would not have been found at the Texas theater later on, after having killed a policeman.
Oswald's own actions show his guilt.

Fracois:

NEVER is too a strong word. Not having a better picture of the doorway is not due to lack of interest of conspiracy researchers but owing to the objective difficulties. I only have tried to get to a better version of Wiegman film and failed like all other researchers. Others have been searching for the original Darnell film and were not successful so far. Will we NEVER get access to better versions of the films? Maybe, if we make a solid case for Lee Oswald being outside the building and not on the sixth floor, the ice will break, similar to establishing the ARRC after Oliver Stone movie. Maybe the living witnesses would be able to say then who was the unknown man standing at the western wall. Whatever colour the truth is, I want to know.

Of course, the whereabouts of Lee Oswald during the shooting are the cornerstone of the whole case, with this the official story would crumble.

As far as Oswald's behaviour is concerned, Lee did have some awareness of some clandestine operation to which he was either lured or forced. The hypothesis I work with is that Lee brought the rifle to work but that he did not shoot from it. He realised that President's killing was not in the script and since he was involved in some sort of a plot, he fled, possibly using the door at the back of the building.

Lee still continued to play according to the script even after his arrest, although, towards the end of interrogations, he was willing to talk with Secret Service after talking first to a lawyer. The lawyer whom Lee would evetually acquire, the future uncontrolled testimonies given to many law enforcement, these are the things which needed to be prevented by all means. Oswald was willing to talk after being left abanoned by people who got him to the situation. Oswald would not talk to Dallas police as he knew they were in on it. And he was silenced in the Dallas police at the last possible moment. Ruby's getting to the basement on time was not too difficult to achieve - his approach to the City Hall building was synchronised with the decision to eventually start the transport, and Ruby's shooting was synchronised with Oswald's arrival by two car honking sounds.

I am not going to details of Prayer Man story here as the present thread is maybe a more general thread in which people from two opposing camps stick to their arguments, none of the parties expected to sway.

I appreciate that the discussions are polite and civilised in spite of the deep disagreement with each other's positions.

Thanks, Lance, for explaining your mental set again. To explain the mental set of a conspiracy thinker: nothing, even seemingly the most simple and trivial aspect of the assassination case,  adds up. We see reflections of what really happened back then mixed with multiple versions of the same. Those multiple versions were often produced by the law enforcement agencies during the assassination weekend or later, by genuine researchers who discovered something palpable, by genuine researchers committing honest errors, or by frauds. It is very difficult to find the truth, and it requires considerable investment of own time and intellectual resources to get a clearer picture. A conspiracy theorist is not satisfied with how the case has been solved and keeps searching. Conspiracy theorists are not waiting for someone to discover something on their behalf, rather they focus on some aspect of the case and try to get to the bottom of it. Sometimes, an aspect can be quite essential - for instance, where was Lee Harvey Oswald during the shooting. A conspiracy thinker has not resigned from investigating the case to disclose, however slim the chance is, maybe new facts or information. If there is anything out there which will completely turn the table, conspiracy researchers but none of lone-nut researchers will find it because these are not searching. Reading JFK assassination books or watching videos is important but not enough. I look forward to having you back in our rows sometimes soon.

6 minutes ago, François Carlier said:

Congratulations for a very good post !
Well written.
Intelligent.
Right on the mark.
Well thought.
And so true !
I enjoyed reading it. I think the same way.
Good-quality posts like yours are rare in this forum.
Thank you very much.

Interesting. I took it as a complete intellectual resignation by Lance who explains why he wishes to live in a state of a limbo.

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Andrej,

Bill & Gayle Newman are hardly the rock-solid "conspiracy" witnesses that CTers have made them out to be for over 50 years....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/bill-and-gayle-newman.html

Jean Hill, as everybody should know, changed her story completely in later years....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/jean-hill.html

And when we examine all of Lee Bowers' statements (instead of just the stuff that Mark Lane would like to have us look at), it's pretty clear that Bowers' observations don't really bolster the "conspiracy" scenario very much (if at all)....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/lee-bowers.html

And Ed Hoffman's account is pretty ludicrous....

http://educationforum.com/topic/22840/comment=329603

 

I see, you would just question the credibility of these witnesses. Actually, I trust all these people and appreciate their bravery when facing the lack of understanding or even a direct pressure to retract or change their reports. 

I asked Fred on September 16 about how he as a LN defender assimilated into his LN theory the reports of several witnesses seeing people and/or puffs of smoke on Grassy Knoll during the shooting. In my view, the witness reports of Jean Hill, S.M. Holland, Lee Bowers, Bill and Gale Newman, J.C. Price, and Ed Hoffman (my list is not complete) cannot be dismissed. Newman's only heard bullets being fired from their right and  behind, they did not see any shooters, but they were clear about shots arriving from the Grassy Knoll. How does the LN theory fare with these data? Fred did not answer. And so I still do not know what a LN theorist thinks about data which so clearly disprove the LN view.

This is a list of 106 Dallas Police officers who were Klansmen. The list names one Chief, one Assistant Chief, three Captains and 10 Sergeants of police and the patrolmen. This list is stored as Mss0016, Earle Cabell: Family History, Box 1, Folder 41, Ben E. Cabell Ku Klux Klan. I am thankful to the staff of the DeGolyer library for finding this document based on my very approximate information. 

Although the list is undated, it is possible to identify the probable year based on the Chief of Police name, L.W. Brown. Chief Brown was the first man in Dallas police only for a short period of time in the year 1923. Chief Brown was preceded by J.H. Tanner and succeeded by C.W. Trammel (Partners in Blue. 100 Years of History of Dallas Police Department, by C. Stowers, 1983). It is not clear why was Ben E. Cabel associated with the list of Klansmen in DeGoyler collection. Ben Elias Cabell (father of Earle Cabell) was Dallas City Mayor in 1900-1904, and the list is clearly from a much later time than Ben E. Cabell’s his mayoral period.

There was a big Klan Day at the State Fair Park in 1923 which was attended by 75,000 Klansmen who were addressed by Hiram Evans, the Imperial Wizard. Chief Brown pioneered the installations of the traffic lights in Dallas. A big tower with traffic lights, man operated, was positioned at the intersection of Elm and Ervay street. However, KKK had a fiest in Dallas as flogging of black people and Jews in Trinity River and lynching black people (e.g., Alex Johnson) was blooming in Dallas during 1922-1924. On one occasion, a Dallas police officer took flogging into his own hands, and was indentified later by his victim Phillip Rothblum. The police officer was acquitted and returned to the force shortly.

There are couple of names which are relevant to the investigation of President Kennedy’s death, found by comparing each of 106 names with the Assistant Chief Batchelor list of Assignments, Commission Exhibit 5002.

W. Fritz, or Will Fritz – Captain in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau. Fritz joined the Dallas police force in 1921, and he was 27 years old in 1923.

Smith, B.B. – Deputy Chief of Police, Director, Civil Defence and Disaster Commission

Frasier, W.N. - Captain of Police

Doughty, M. – could probably be George M. Doughty, Captain of Police (not confirmed) ?

Abbott, R.E. – Forgery Bureau

The name “Curry, J.” is listed, however, this cannot be Chief Jesse Curry of fame as he joined the police department only in 1936, and he would be 10 years old 1923. Curry’s father was shortly a member of Dallas police before he became a minister for a Baptist church. Could he be the J. Curry in the list of Klansmen? 

The list of Klansmen in Dallas police refers to the period of the mid-20th when KKK enjoyed its resurrection, started by William Joseph Simmons and the film Birth of the Nation. The Klan 66 in Dallas was practically disbanded after 1928 and it would be a stretch to take for granted that the people in the list were Klansmen also in the fiftieth and sixtieth of the last century when the issue of integration engulfed another surge of KKK activities. However, it is certainly not impossible. The Dallas police counted 130 officers in 1920’ and the 106 names in the list means that almost every police officer was a Klansman during those times. In the overall US population, about 35% of white males of Christian religion and of non-immigrant status were members of KKK in the 20th of the last century. Thus, police officers were Klansmen more often than average population.

I always wondered why did Captain Fritz asked Lee Oswald whether Lee had believed in a “deity” during one of the interrogation sessions.  Lee answered : “What religion am I? I have no faith, I suppose you mean, in the Bible. I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. As a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think of it. . . . “ (Mae Brussel, The Last Words of Lee Harvey Oswald, http://www.maebrussell.com/Mae Brussell Articles/Last Words of Lee Oswald.html). The reason for asking could be the Klansmen instinct which despised people who were black or Jews (especially in Dallas), immigrants (especially south-European) and were of other religion than south-protestant. Lee obviously blew it in the last item. Lee offered one more statement which had to enrage every true Klansman:  "Life is better for the colored people in Russia than it is in the U.S."

While it was normal to be a Klansman in the 20th of the last century, the KKK membership in the fiftieth and sixtieth was less open to an outside view. The scarce information we have, such as Joseph McBride’s interview with officer Brumley may be one of the few remaining bits of information about KKK in the Dallas Police in 1963, although archives may still contain valuable documents such as this list.

The attached document is of relatively poor quality because it was converted from a PDF to JPEG. Anyone wishing to see the original PDF, please drop me your email address via a private message.

On 9/23/2018 at 10:38 PM, Joseph McBride said:

When I told a Dallas researcher that Morris Brumley had claimed he "infiltrated"

the Klan for the Dallas police, he laughed and said a majority of the Dallas

KKK were DPD members. You'd be hard pressed to find membership lists of a criminal organization, though perhaps

it's possible there is one somewhere.

Joseph:

I was able to obtain one list of Klansmen, and am posting it in a new thread.

3 hours ago, Joseph McBride said:

I doubt there is a list of DPD officers who were Klan members. Morris

Brumley surprised me by bringing up his KKK membership in our interview, with

a tape recorder going on the table in front of him, and boasting about his involvement,

showing me his membership card and talking about the crimes he helped commit.

It was a stunning moment. Brumley had known Tippit from their youth.

 

Thanks for your comment. I will keep searching for a list of DPD Klansmen, just in case. If we knew who from the Dallas Police force was in KKK, it would give a better idea who was in the inner circle within the force, connected more than by their work duties. These officers would cover each other's backs during any investigation.

Joseph:

this is a great podcast and a great book of yours, one of my favorite JFK assassination books. 

I wonder if there is any chance to view the list of Dallas police officers (1960') who were KKK members? Both Chief Curry and  Captain Fritz were in KKK during their young years (and maybe even later). 

Fred:

welcome to the Forum, and congratulations on your new book. While I am one of the conspiracy buffs, I understand how much work it takes to write a book. 

This particular Forum is a place to debate issues related to JFK assassination. While it is possible to also discuss books on the topic, this assumes that people have purchased a book and wanted to review. There are hundreds of books on JFK assassination and only a very small number of books have been debated here. 

I would like to know how can a lone-nut explanation deal with the observations of several witnesses seeing people and/or puffs of smoke on Grassy Knoll during the shooting. In my view, the witness reports of Jean Hill, S.M. Holland, Lee Bowers, Bill and Gale Newman, J.C. Price, and Ed Hoffman (my list is not complete) cannot be dismissed. Newmans only heard bullets being fired from left and  behind, they did not see any shooters, but they were clear about shots arriving from Grassy Knoll. Did you consider this issue in your conclusions?