Andrej Stancak
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Posts posted by Andrej Stancak
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This is another important development in Prayer Man saga, and thumb up to all those who worked on this project.
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I may be wrong, however, I see the ceiling light in the first-floor vestibule behind the glass door lit up in Darnell film. I wonder how this could be if the power in the building was out.
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26 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
He said that he could not answer due to the poor quality of the photo.
I agree that the photo is a bit blurred and does not provide all details as we would wish to see, and Mr. Frazier could use this to say what he has said. I also remember that someone else asked the same question and Mr. Frazier responded that he was not even aware that someone would stand there.
Autobiographical memories can be activated by prompts, such as odors or pictures. I would be keen to show Mr. Frazier the 3D model of the doorway and ask him to comment on any figure there, not explicitly about Prayer Man. Maybe he would recall who this person and other people in the doorway were when the whole scene would be revived in front of him.
Would your friend be willing to show Mr. Frazier some model images and record what he has to say?
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28 minutes ago, François Carlier said:
What will you do ? What will James DiEugenio do ? I'm not asking much : I'm only asking that if it turns out that I was right all along and you were wrong, you acknowlege that fact right here, on this forum.
I will ask some distinguished people whom the community respects very much to advise. If Jim would be keen to help or even write to the Sixth Floor, I would support it. I myself will not write anything as a request because it could be easily turned down and it would be a precedent. (I have to say that the Sixth Floor Museum was unusually supportive when I approached them 3-4 times with my requests). I am not familiar with US laws to know how and what can be asked.
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51 minutes ago, François Carlier said:
Hello Andrej,
Why not do all of that ? I certainly don't mind.
Any attempts at knowing more and answering questions is a good thing. Of course, I personally believe that it is a waste of time.
Again, I would like to remind you that Buell Wesley Frazier was there and Billy Lovelady was there too. We already have their statements : they categorically say that they did not see Oswald there, and Lovelady said that he was chatting / talking to the other employees there.
(Have you listened to the Lovelady interview ?)
Any statement made 55 years later would have less impact, but as I said, I would be happy to ask the question to Buell Frazier, as I would love to see high-quality films or pictures of that area.
To me the question is already settled.
You seem to be a calm and honest researcher. I sincerely wish you good luck !Francois:
I see no point in repeating again all the reasons for exploring the possibility that Oswald was Prayer Man. Jeremy and others have summarised some main points excellently. Something important happened last week and I would like that we take this forward and make another step.
It may be worthy to understand where we differ the most in our opinions.
1. There was a massive cover-up involving manipulations with evidence, suppressing some testimonies and advising people what to say and what not to say. This cover-up was government-led and it continues until today. There is no way that any US president would ever reveal the most secret information pertaining to this case. A very large number of documents have been released but not the most important ones. We may never see those documents which would shed light on the case (e.g., Oswald's tax records, destroyed SS documents). In contrast, you believe that there was no cover-up, and it is only the conspiracy theorist's mind which craves for data which do not exist.
2. We attribute different weights to Hosty's and Fritz'/Bookhout's testimonies. This most recent finding (Hosty's notes) is a breakthrough because it brought to daylight a recording from the very first interrogation before any cover-up could kick in. Hosty's notes were made as Oswald spoke. The validity of these notes is incomparable to the validity of e.g., Fritz's notes which I gather were drafted maybe years after the interrogation using Bookhout's notes as the template. As cover-up was in place already on the evening of November 22 ("the case is cinched"), any post-hoc elaborated notes would contain references to incriminating information which Oswald never said. Hosty does not mention the 2nd-floor encounter and as his notes were authentic (similar to a stenographic record), it is for this reason that the scenario without the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter is the more likely version of events. You instead do not have any doubts about the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter.
3. We also differ in interpreting "in" and "out" in the context of Oswald's whereabouts during the shooting. Those believing in the veracity of Hosty's notes say that Oswald had lunch in the first-floor lunchroom when shots rang out. (I would say when the first shot rang out). Thus it is possible to say he was in the building during the shooting, and that he did not watch the motorcade. Oswald moved to the front and got to the doorway just seconds after the last shot and we see him at the western wall as Prayer Man. So, he saw a tail of the motorcade (in a way he saw part of the parade) and he surely saw the excitement. He surely was in the vicinity of Mr. Shelley just seconds after the shooting. In contrast, you believe that Oswald was shooting at the President during this critical period and that he was buying another Coke when Baker entered the lunchroom.
It is impossible to resolve these differences at this stage. I hope more new data will pop up and that Darnell and Wiegman films will be eventually given to the public as Z-film was.
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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:
(But to Sandy Larsen and Bart Kamp, that means that Oswald was there.
Fracois: please, count me in.
So, where do we go from here now? The living witnesses, Mr. Frazier and Mr. Lewis, should be asked who was the unknown man standing at the western wall of the Depository doorway. Also, a letter (petition?) should be sent to the Sixth Floor Museum requesting a digital copy of just one frame of Darnell film (the one we all use, the sharpest one). The letter should point to this new evidence and ask for collaboration. I am not a US citizen and cannot help in that, however, it may be worthy to contact a member of the Congress and/or member of Oswald's or Kennedy's family to support this request. There must be a way to break the unnecessary lock-down for this film. I can help with providing an overlay of Oswald's figure onto Prayer Man and explaining why Prayer Man could only be a person 5'9'' (meaning a male and male of Oswald's body height), however, the letter could well go without any of my data.
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As to the timing of Lee Oswald's movements during and just after shooting, there does not seem to be enough detailed data in witness testimonies. Based on data presented in this thread, I am inclined to believe that Oswald was in the 1st floor lunchroom when shots rang out which should satisfy our LN colleagues here (Oswald was in the building during the shooting). However, he moved to the front of the first floor and into the doorway (the glass door was semi-open throughout the assassination) when he heard shots and he reached his spot as Prayer Man only seconds after the last shot (he saw the tail of the P. parade and the excitement). We see Prayer Man at his spot in Wiegman but I fail to see him at that spot in Hughes. I asked Chris Davidson for his estimate of the 1st Wiegman frame showing the doorway (W14) relative to Z313. Dale Meyer's estimate (frame Z257 = W14) does not seem to be plausible because some of the doorway occupants changed their postures/locations significantly between Altgens6 (Z255) and W14. As a small example: Carl Jones stares to the east (Houston Street) in Altgens6 but not in Wiegman.
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8 hours ago, François Carlier said:
Someone has to ask him point blank as soon as possible and video tape the conversation.
Francois: there are points on which we can agree and this is certainly one of those.
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47 minutes ago, François Carlier said:
Why didn't Buell Frazier say that Oswald was with him
This is a good point, Francois. Time to ask Mr. Frazier once more about the person standing less than three feet from him. Mr. Frazier actually has been asked but somehow could not answer. So, why? If it would be some fellow employee, Mr. Frazier would say who Prayer Man was. He would not say who that man was only if it was Lee Oswald. Indirectly, Mr. Frazier confirms that Prayer Man was someone of identity so sensitive that he cannot say.
I always wondered how could Mr. Frazier be so sure that Lee was innocent. Mr. Frazier says only nice things about Lee Oswald and believes in his innocence even if it was his testimony which pinned the guilt for Presidents killing onLee Oswald - the elongated paper bag and no bag with lunch. Well, Mr. Frazier could be so certain only if he knew dead well that Lee was not the shooter. For instance, if he saw Lee less than three feet apart from him just seconds after the last shot.
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Ray:
an excellent quotation from this rare book which I did not read and maybe many other researchers neither. So, the officer and Truly left Oswald on the first floor before continuing upstairs. This is another confirmation of the true course of events.
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2 hours ago, François Carlier said:
Fritz's notes have this : "Claims second floor Coke when officer came in". There you have the second floor encounter in someone's notes. But wait. Are you telling me that you all want to disbelieve Fritz"s notes and believe Hosty's notes ? On what grounds ?
Francois:
There is a difference between Hosty's and Fritz' notes. Hosty's notes are authentic, they were taken during the first interrogation on Friday, 22/11/63, 3.15PM. Hosty's notes are on the back of a DPD affidavit form which he said independently he used before his notes were discovered last week. Hosty's book closely follows the notes up to the point, and the point was that he went out to see the P. parade. You do not go to watch the parade several minutes after it had passed the building, the parade was still around.
Oswald would not have any benefit from lying about the second-floor encounter should it ever happen - it would be silly to try to suppress it if both Truly and Baker would be able to confirm it. The point is that at 3.15PM, the cover-up was not that tight yet and the 2nd-floor encounter was not cooked properly.
In contrast, Fritz's notes are not authentic. In the first place, he did not take any notes during the interrogation itself. He used the FBI agent Bookhout 's notes to jot down his notes at some point later, it may have been days or even weeks later, maybe just before his testimony for the Warren Commission. Those notes are already tainted and contain a reference to the second-floor encounter which is not even mentioned in Officer Baker's first testimony.
Irrespective of going out to watch P. parade, the course of events described by Agent Hosty fits with the recent report of Mrs. Sarah Stanton's family, conveyed to Mr. Doyle last June. Mrs. Stanton said she has met Lee Oswald on stairs (most likely the stairs connecting the 1st and 2nd floor) while she was in the process of going out to watch the motorcade several minutes before the shooting. The motorcade was due 12.25PM, so it would be just minutes before 12.25PM. Lee said to Mrs. Stanton that he was only going to buy Coke for his lunch and that he would then proceed to his "room". Mrs. Stanton saw what Lee Oswald said during his first interrogation session and what James Hosty scribbled down. Lee had his Coke before the shooting and came from the first floor to the second floor to get it (as Hosty's notes say). What Mrs. Stanton could not see was that Lee then returned to the first floor - that was the "room" captured in Mrs. Stanton's statements.
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30 minutes ago, François Carlier said:
What would be the reason for Marrion Baker (a policeman) and Roy Truly (a manager) who did not know each other and had never met each other, to lie to an official, presidential investigation into the assassination of a president (what could be higher or more important ?) with everything to lose in the process ?
Francois:
May I answer with a question too: do you see in the authentic Hosty's notes from the very first interrogation any mention about the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter between Oswald and Baker?
The pressure on law enforcement to make Oswald the lone gunman was extreme. People such as Truly and Baker just complied.
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6 minutes ago, François Carlier said:
One question : if I understand you correctly, you are claiming that :
- Oswald told the truth
- Marrion Baker and Roy Truly lied.
Is that it ?Yes, this is right. Oswald did not shoot the President and he was not on the sixth floor during the shooting. The 2nd-floor encounter? Well, Oswald did not have any business on the 2nd floor beside buying Coke before the shooting. Mrs. Sarah Stanton saw him on the stairs leading to the 2nd floor when she was stepping down to get to the doorway to watch the motorcade. So, he already had his Coke, why would then he go again to the 2nd floor lunchroom after the shooting - to buy another Coke? So, no, there was no second-floor encounter with Truly and Baker. I thought this has been discredited years ago by Vicki Adams's story, researched by Barry Ernest.
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1 hour ago, François Carlier said:
Now, just what is your question ? You want to know what I have to say about the document uploaded by David Josephs that stipulates that Oswald acknowledged that he did have an encounter with Marrion Baker et Roy Truly on the second floor ?
Francois:
It is worse than that. You know, James Hosty, the agent who had flushed an over-important note brought to the office by Lee Oswald, that guy took notes during the very first interrogation of Lee Oswald at DPD headquarters right there, on Friday, 3.15 PM. And Lee was, rightly so, asked where he was during the assassination time, and he said that he had a lunch in the 1st floor lunch room, then he went to buy Coke from a machine in the 2nd floor lunchroom (to flush down that lunch) and he came back to the first floor to finish his lunch. So there he was. And he heard the noises from outside as the motorcade was passing, so he went out to view the P. parade. This is what Lee told right away when he was asked where he was when shots rang out. And that guy, Hosty, he scribbled all this on a sheet he grabbed in Fritz's office. There was a pile of blank affidavits, so he took one and wrote what Lee had said on the back of the affidavit. You would not believe, however, after more than 55 years that sheet with Hosty's handwritten notes was discovered at NARA by who else than a conspiracy researcher Malcolm Blunt. So, we have a problem here because it is an authentic record of what has been said during the very first interrogation, you know before the things could have been adjusted a little. Hosty realised later that watching P. parade had been a problem, so he did not put this information about P. parade into his book. The only problem is that some conspiracy freaks just do not stop and this is the result. Nobody can now believe that the second-floor encounter actually happened and what is worse that Oswald was shooting at the President from the sixth floor.
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22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
How on Earth can we possibly KNOW all of those details from such a poor-quality image?
Answer --- We can't know.
And "colour of his hair"?? From a black-and-white film clip?? Come now.
David:
1. As per body height - please see my 3D reconstructions of the doorway and Prayer Man's figure. If you do not trust computer programs, please subtract 10 inches (the height of human head for a person 6') from Mr. Frazier's body height and you get the height of the top of Prayer Man's head above the top landing. Prayer Man stood with his right foot on the seconds step, so 5'2'' + 7'' = 5'9'' (Oswald's body height).
2. The shirt: Oswald had a light-red shirt on himself during the period of assassination, and changed it for a dark red-brown shirt at his North Beckley rooming house. If you convert the coloured version of this light-red shirt into greyscale, you get the grey we see in the black-and-white version of this shirt in WC exhibits, and on Prayer Man in Darnell. Of course, few light colours may give a similar grey tone, but it could not be a white shirt or yellow shirt or black shirt or dark green/blue/red. Oswald's pants he wore on Friday morning were grey and loose and match well Prayer Man's pants.
3. The same with hair colour: Prayer Man's colour would only match dark brown or black hair, not blond or grey (like Mrs. Stanton's hair).
4. The posture: well, the only way Prayer Man could stand in Darnell was with one foot on the top step, this foot being forward, and the left leg slightly bent in the knee joint. He would rest his body on his right foot which was stretched and slightly backwards. Lee can be seen standing this was in numerous photographs, even in the picture with David Ferrie as a Civil Patrol cadet.
All points have been discussed in detail in various Prayer Man threads, no point bringing this on here.
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Lee Oswald's statements as recorded by James Hosty fit well with what we see in film documents. Lee Oswald came into the doorway a bit late. Thus, he was on the first floor, which means inside the building, during the shooting. However, he was in the doorway just seconds after the final shot rang out and he, therefore, saw the tail of the motorcade. The Hosty's handwritten notes taken by him during the first interrogation session at 3.15 on Friday, November 22, clear any doubts about Oswald movements during the assassination.
As per other employees not confirming Oswald's alibi: it is sufficient to see how Mr. Frazier responds to that question. He can still be asked by a grand jury to say who the person standing less than 3 feet away from him was. But no evasions or l.i.e.s, please: we know how tall Prayer Man was, what was the colour of his hair, his hairline, his posture, and his clothes.
Also, what about Mrs. Sarah Stanton denying in her official statements seeing Oswald but then telling her family about talking to Oswald as he was coming to buy the Coke minutes before the assassination? And what about Judy McCully who was "advised" by the FBI to report that she was outside the building while she was on the 4th floor?
James Hosty was fully aware of the significance of Lee's statement about going to watch the parade and this is the reason for omitting this information in his book. Should he write in his book that Oswald went out to see the parade, the next thing would be: well, then let us inspect the visual evidence from the period just following the shooting if we can find him there. And we can.
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This is from James Hosty's book: "Assignment Oswald". Indeed, Hosty took one of the affidavit forms and wrote 3.15 to time stamp his original notes.
The interrogation as described in Hosty's book matches very well his notes which he wrote during the interrogation on the back of an affidavit form. The point of divergence between the notes and the book is Lee's statement about watching the P. parade. Obviously, this was sanitised in the book.
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This is a breakthrough finding. In spite of all the cover up and witness manipulation, eventually a proof of true course of actions has emerged. Lee was on the second floor before the assassination, however, he returned to the first floor to eat his lunch. The second floor encounter with Officer Marrion Baker could not and did not happen. Lee Oswald was Prayer Man - all the physical evidence point to his presence in the doorway as Prayer Man, and now this new evidence which was buried in archives for 55 years.
It would be useful and correct to write a letter to the Sixth floor museum with the new evidence and a renewed request for releasing a high-resolution image of Darnell doorway - at least the sharpest frame.
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The dark patch on the back of Kennedy's head in Z317 (in the link provided in the first post of this thread) appears as a sure manipulation. This shape is neatly delinated and much darker than a natural shadow. Can only concur with the authors who analysed this high-res image. Further, to cover up this black patch, the back and shoulder and part of the upper arm were also darkened to make the hair patch less conspicuous and more natural.
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A very interesting hypothesis popped up recently attempting to explain Lee Oswald's whereabouts during the period he was supposed to be in Mexico City. The new book by Paul Smith: JFK and the Willard Hotel Plot: The Explosive New Theory of Oswald in D.C. , Lee Oswald took a bus for Houston but did not travel to Mexico City, his imposter(s) did. Lee Oswald stopped in Austin and Dallas (Silvia Odio) and reached Washington, D.C. on the 27th of September. According to this hypothesis, Lee stayed at the pricy Willard hotel and was readying for an assassination attempt on October 1. On that day, a motorcade took place with JFK and H. Selasie parading in an open limousine and taking a sharp turn around Willard hotel. There were allegedly two opportunities to shoot at a motorcade, one during the parade on the 14th Street and another on the south lawn of the White House which was visible from Willard hotel back then. Besides the August letters by Lee Oswald in which he signalled he would be moving to Baltimore/Washington, D.C. for a job in October, there is a Secret Service report (dated December 1963) stating that Lee Oswald was indeed seen by a driver of an official's limousine, by a SS agent (Hicks?) and a local police officers. All three men were convinced that the man they saw coming out from Willard hotel and causing disturbance there was Lee Harvey Oswald. The evidence is circumstantial, however, the author makes a good job in connecting the dots.
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Here are the relevant statements speaking strongly in favor of a light-red button-down shirt being worn by Lee during the time of shooting:
Cpt. Will Fritz's notes, dated 23rd November 1963: “Says 11-22-63 rode bus/got trans same out of pocket…Changed shirts + tr. Put in dirty clothes—long sleeve red sh + gray tr.” (retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=7&tab=page)
Cpt. Will Fritz's narrative "Interrogations of Lee Harvey Oswald": “During this conversation he told me he reached his home by cab and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show” (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29104#relPageId=6&tab=page).
Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley (CD87 p375).: “He said he went home, changed his trousers and shirt, put his shirt in a drawer. This was a red shirt, and he put it in his dirty clothes. He described the shirt as having a button down collar and of reddish color. The trousers were grey colored.” ("First interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald", retrieved from http://www.prayer-man.com/secret-service/thomas-j-kelley/#lightbox[group]/0/ ).
FBI agent James Bookhout: "stated that after arriving at his apartment he changed his shirt and trousers, because they were dirty. He described his dirty clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved shirt with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers" (Commission Document 5, page 100, retrieved from https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=103&tab=page).
Special Agents Bardwell Odum and Gibbon McNeely interviewed Buell Wesley Frazier and recorded the following: "As Frazier recalls, Oswald was wearing a reddish shirt and a gray jacket, waist length." (WCH vol. 24, 408-410, retrieved from https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0213b.htm).
Lee Oswald's shirt is an essential point in context of Prayer Man problem as the dark brown shirt CE150 would not be compatible with Prayer Man's clothing. In contrast, the light red shirt CE151 not only fits Prayer Man's shirt also burries any possibility of erroneously attributing Lee' shirt to Lovelady (Altgens6).
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John:
Lee Oswald did not wear the dark red-brown shirt CE150 in the morning and just after noon on that fateful Friday. He changed his shirt and slacks. In the morning, he wore a light red, button-down collar shirt CE151. That shirt if converted to into grey scale gives the grey appearance of Prayer Man's shirt in Darnell. The point is that the FBI pinned the wrong shirt to the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle by allegedly finding few fibres on the butt of the rifle which matched the darker CE150. The dark shirt could not be the source of the fibres found on the butt because Lee changed his shirts at his rooming house. The best analysis of the shirt problem. to the best of my knowledge, was provided by Pat Speer (patspeer.com, Chapter 4b) who also needs to be credited for obtaining from NARA the coloured picture of CE151 in 2016. The best proof of CE151 being worn by Lee in the morning are Lee's own statements reproduced by his interrogators and Buell Wesley Frazier's statement recorded by the FBI.
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John:
thanks for your detailed comments. Billy Lovelady had a balding spot on his head, however, it is not seen in my model in the views provided. The shirt is an evergreen problem. I think it is always the same shirt, a plaid one, reddish-brown, and with open buttons except maybe the lowest few buttons. The man emerging from the shadows in Hughes (the early part with motorcade in front of the building) and the one in Altgens are one and the same person. He might have buttoned his shirt later on, e.g. when he was brought to the police station. He also seemed to need a good shave. I did not assume a shirt with vertical strips - I only used the FBI picture to model Lovelady's head and hairline, not the shirt.
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John:
this should be Billy Lovelady. Not only because it would be unlikely for Oswald to be at this place at that point of time but also because of the man's hairline. I am pretty familiar with both Lee Oswald's and Billy Lovelady's hairline after spending days modelling their heads. Here is Billy Lovelady's head with its 3D model.
Questions For Andrej Regarding Prayer Man
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
I feel delighted with the new developments, the Hosty's authentic notes and now Marina's positive identification of Lee as Prayer Man. Congratulations on your effort and of all involved. My role in PM case is close to none, although my 3D modelling work may be handy at some point.
Actually, I am not far from making final overlays of my realistic model of Lee Oswald and Prayer Man. Of course, I did them and see the perfect match, however, it is not the same to see it in my workshop and to publish it - every single detail is scrutinised (even those aspects which do not have much to do with Prayer Man) and used to damage the whole Prayer Man cause.