Sandy Larsen

Okay, but... We know it wasn't a fringe group... it was the CIA. We know that because only the CIA could have placed Oswald in the TSBD, where he needed to be. And only the CIA could have pulled off the Mexico City charade, which David Phillips certainly had a hand in. The rogue group at the CIA who did the Mexico City charade also placed Oswald at the TSBD, so you can't just blow them off. If you can't explain them, then there's a flaw in your theory. As for the outcome being based on hope... what the CIA did was a false flag operation. False flag operations ALWAYS create pretenses for something. It's up the Commander in Chief how he acts on the pretenses. But it WAS fully implemented. It was still going on even after the Warren report was published. And neither Angleton or David Phillips ever gave up on it!

@Michael Griffith This isn't hard to understand. From NSAM 263: The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1-3) of the [McNamara/Taylor] report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963. From Section I B (1-3) of the McNamara/Taylor report: 2. A program be established to train Vietnamese so that essential functions now performed by U.S. military personnel can be carried out by Vietnamese by the end of 1965. It should be possible to withdraw the bulk of U.S. personnel by that time. Kennedy was pulling advisor/troops out of Vietnam, with 1965 being the target date.

So you attempt to alter the meaning of Dr. Perry's statement to match what you believe? A typical Speer maneuver. Following are Perry's early statements, in which he always maintained that the gaping wound was on the back of the head: In a note written at Parkland Hospital and dated, 11-22-63 Dr., Perry described the head wound as, "A large wound of the right posterior cranium..." (WC--V17:6--CE#392) Describing Kennedy's appearance to the Warren Commission's Arlen Specter Dr. Perry stated, "Yes, there was a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium...." (WC- V3:368) Later to Specter: "...I noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue..." (WC--V3:372) In an interview with the HSCA's Andy Purdy in 1-11-78 Mr. Purdy reported that "Dr. Perry... believed the head wound was located on the "occipital parietal" (sic) region of the skull and that the right posterior aspect of the skull was missing..." (HSCA- V7:292-293) Perry told Mr. Purdy: "I looked at the head wound briefly by leaning over the table and noticed that the parietal occipital head wound was largely avulsive and there was visible brain tissue in the macard and some cerebellum seen..." (HSCA-V7:302-interview with Purdy 1-11-78.

Kindly remove the above statements from your post. They are an intentional misrepresentation of what I said. I said I wouldn't answer your question again because it had already been answered multiple times, including by me. Not because I was admitting defeat to your silly arguments. You will be given double penalty points if you don't remove it from your post.

Yeah, the CIA could have broken into Zapruder's home. But if I were in charge of the CIA at the time, I would have had one of my agents simply ask Zapruder if the CIA could borrow his copy for a day. Especially if I had money to put up as collateral. And then I would return a copy of the altered film. (That is to say, the film that had been altered a second time.)

Actually, they agree with what I thought earlier... that Hawkeye Works painted the black patch on the back of the head and the red blob on the top-side of the head, and removed a quick, short limo stop via the removal of frames. My latest hypothesis attempts to explain a longer stop that has motorcycle cops running around the cars. I said that this would have been too complicated to remove the weekend after the assassination at Hawkeye Works. And so this longer stop must have been removed later, after the film had been given to Life.

It sounds like the limo did stop and that motorcycle cops were running around. Something that could not be removed by Hawkeye Works over the weekend. So, perhaps what happened was that Hawkeye Works only blackened the wound on the back of the head and painted in a new wound on the right-top of the head. It was decided that the limo-stop remaining in the film was too incriminating against the Secret Service, and so the film was withheld. Since the film was withheld, there was plenty of time to do further work on the film. It was decided to remove the limo stop. Which they did. Is there a problem with this hypothesis? For example, were copies made of the weekend Hawkeye Works' film and distributed? If so, this would complicate my hypothesis.

Roger, I want to understand your theory. Please explain what specifically of the following is NOT the case, according to your theory: The CIA plotters designed and implemented a plan, centered around, Mexico City, whereby LHO was made to look like he was in cahoots with Cuba and the Soviet Union in a deal to assassinate Kennedy. The reason the CIA plotters did this was to create a pretext for invasion of Cuba and/or a war with the Soviet Union. The CIA plotters hoped the Johnson Administration would order an invasion of Cuba and/or a war with the Soviet Union. The CIA plotters made sure that LHO was working for the TSBD during 11/22/63 so that he could be blamed as the patsy. (That is to say, the American patsy who was in cahoots with Cuba and the Soviet Union.) The CIA plotters plan failed because the Johnson Administration rejected their international commie plot. Instead, they blamed the shooting solely on Oswald.

Oliver Stone still feels the same way about Putin after the invasion of Ukraine? Oh...my...gosh, how stupid.

I think I understand now what you believe: There were two plots (at least), one being controlled by Johnson and the other being controlled by the generals and conducted by an element of the CIA (Angleton and Philips). (The reason I associate the CIA plot with the generals is because the CIA's plot facilitated their goals). But who planned and conducted the Johnson plot? Another element of the CIA? The Mafia? The two plots had to be independent of each other because they had different, opposing goals. HOWEVER, there is a problem with this idea. It begs the question, how did the two independent, opposing groups of plotters happen to pick the same person, LHO, as the patsy? I'm afraid this doesn't work. Somebody had to get Oswald into the TSBD as an employee so that he could be blamed. This most likely was accomplished by having CIA handlers instruct Ruth Paine, Oswald, and Truly (or a CIA-connected person who could control Truly) to get Oswald to work there. (BTW I happen to believe that the TSBD or the whole building was a CIA front.) So how does your theory account for two independent groups both choosing LHO as the patsy?

So we agree that there were plotters who wanted the blame to go to Cuba, possibly the Soviet Union too. Not only did they want that, they invested a lot of time developing a fake story that would create that pretext. And not only did they develop it, but they continued on with its execution even after the Johnson Administration decided not to take advantage of it. For example, Alvarado's story came out after. I think that David Phillips and Angleton were claiming it was a commie plot for years after the assassination. So you are saying that it was Johnson's decision to dismiss the commie plot and go with the lone gunman? If that's the case, why did Bundy inform Johnson on Air Force One that it wasn't a commie plot and that the lone gunman had been caught? Also, if it was Johnson's decision to dismiss the commie plot, how could he do that before the (fake) commie plot had even been discovered by the FBI? In order for you to be right about this, it seems that Johnson would have known before 11/22/63 about both Oswald AND the commie plot. I can't understand why the CIA plotters would spend all that time developing a fake commie plot if they knew Johnson would immediately nix it. I don't think Johnson was aware of exactly what the CIA's plot was... only that there was a plot. Oswald wasn't THE leader, he was among those planning the assassination. He was the one who received the down payment in the Cuban Consulate. So he was more like a gofer. (All of this fake, of course.)

Don't forget, it would look awfully suspicious for Life to lose that film. Whereas, tucking it away in a safe makes good sense. It only gets suspicious after several years and Life hasn't done anything with it. But even that wouldn't be all that suspicious... projects get canned all the time.

First, Oswald was probably never in Mexico City (MC). A short, blond Oswald impersonator -- employed by the CIA -- visited the Cuban Consulate. David Josephs has shown that the bus trips to and from Mexico City MC were faked... I believe to cover up the fact that Oswald (rather, the impersonator) and associates went by car to MC. (There is some evidence for this car trip.) This was covered up by the FBI/WC because multiple people suggests a conspiracy. The MC trip was a complete fabrication developed by by CIA. It was designed to make it look like Oswald and his associates were in cahoots with Cuba and the Soviet Union. It was meant to work this way: After the assassination, the FBI would discover that Oswald had met with KGB assassination chief Kostikov, and was involved with Cuban officials and employees at the Cuban Consulate. The Cubans paid him a $6500 down payment for the killing of Kennedy. Oswald wasn't an assassin, but was working with an assassination team in the U.S. That way, it wouldn't matter if there were witnesses who saw that he didn't shoot Kennedy. He merely helped the shooters gain access to the building. We know that Oswald was a CIA employee because he didn't just happen to get a job where the CIA plotters needed him to be for the assassination. In addition, we know Ruth Paine is CIA because she didn't just happen to get a job interview for Oswald where the plotters needed him to be. They didn't know that the other was also CIA due to compartmentalization. The sole purpose of Oswald's letter to the Soviet Embassy in Washington was to reinforce that Oswald had met with Kostikov (Kostin). It most likely wasn't written or typed by Oswald. The plotters instructed Ruth to hand-copy it and give it to the FBI, which she did the day after the assassination. It was just another step in incriminating Cuba and the Soviet Union. Well, the Soviet Union in this instance.

Yeah... right. Where's the beef? Quote the book instead of telling us what it says. And this time don't leave out the part where Robert says they were keeping their distance from "Marguerite." That's right... I saw you removed that when you quoted the book earlier.

Thanks for playing that video again, Keven. I now see that the "more vertical" shadow I thought I saw is really an optical illusion. The shadow in question is much closer to the limo, actually "touching it," than the other shadows. And this made the shadow look less like it was oriented in the same direction as the motion of the limo. So, my bad. But there are other things in the video that seem wrong. Like the lamp post that appears to be stuck to the background rather than moving when the camera pans past it. I'd have to actually go outside and try that with similarly spaced objects to see if the lamppost really should move.

I think the desired goal was to have it look like Oswald was in cahoots with Russia and Cuba, and was paid a $6500 down payment for his team to kill Kennedy. This would create a pretext for invasion of Cuba, and/or first nuclear strike on Russia if the generals got so lucky to get their way. When Oswald wasn't killed, McGeorge Bundy scrapped that plan and decided that only Oswald was involved. This resulted in the ad hoc seat-of-the-pants coverup that produced the Warren Report. Yes, Oswald was the patsy from the start... not as a shooter, but as an assassination team leader. But he was supposed to be eliminated right after Kennedy was killed. Bundy changed the plan when he wasn't killed. That's consistent with my theory above. Just in case LBJ didn't order a Cuban invasion or a first strike on Russia. At least they would get their war in Vietnam. Again, this is consistent with my above theory. In addition, my theory explains the Mexico City shenanigans. Well if their primary goal was to blame only Oswald, the plotters didn't do a very thorough job. They even had to come up with a weapon for him... An afterthought. A second floor encounter with Officer Baker... an afterthought. A fake alibi... an afterthought.

Of the three important things I got from Brugioni interview, I realize now (after reading some of Horne's stuff) that the conclusion I made from #1 (quoted above) is wrong. It doesn't suggest that "further, more involved alterations were done at a later date."

Chris, When I look at the shadows of people on the grass, and see that the "direction" of their shadows is close to the direction the limousine is traveling, I know that it will be difficult to make out the motion blur in the shadows. (That is to say, the motion blur due to the camera following the limo.) I try to stay away from evidence that is subtle. So I have no interest in the motion blur of those shadows. Now here's the thing that's bugging me. The reason I even mentioned motion blur of shadows in my post is because somebody (Keven?) posted a video a few days ago that showed a number of anomalies in the Z film. And the one that stood out -- because it was so simple and easy to understand -- was a shadow with no motion blur, even though the man causing the shadow did have motion blur. I recall that shadow being roughly VERTICAL... which is precisely the reason it got my attention. Problem is... their ain't no such thing! There are no vertical shadows, and it's driving me nuts! Because I swear I saw one. Argh. I wish I could watch that video again.

Sean, The Z film that the folks at Hawkeye Works altered had inter-sprocket images. Both before and after their alterations.

Hey Karl, You quoted what you thought were the pertinent paragraphs out of Robert Oswald's book to prove your point, and you failed in most cases. If you want to prove Armstrong made a mistake, the burden is on you, not me.

Here is a message for Geo: Oswald is NOT the name of the Hungarian orphan we are trying to find. We do NOT know the name of that boy. We only know that the he was living with Emil Gardos in New York City in the 1940s. Because of that, we probably cannot find anything about the orphan. After the boy was recruited by the CIA, at the age of 13, the CIA gave him the name Lee Harvey Oswald. Which is identical to the name of an American boy, who was also 13. Therefore, the CIA had doppelganger boys.

Bump... by all means, read everything Karl (thinks) he's got on Armstrong.

Yes, Armstrong has read Robert Oswald's book. He says so in the same part of his book where he discusses "Marguerite's" accident. Everybody makes a mistake now and then. Death blow? LOL, I don't think so. He and Jim Hargrove have a ton of evidence supporting the Harvey & Lee theory. Here's a summary of Armstrong's claims: There is no indication that: The Marguerite imposter contacted Robert about her accident. Robert visited the Marguerite imposter over the accident. Robert provided financial assistance or any other help to the Marguerite imposter. LEE visited the Marguerite imposter during his military leave. LEE provided financial assistance or any other help to the Marguerite imposter. That's what I'm going to check. I will rewrite what Robert wrote, but without Karl's commentary: He [LEE] came to Fort Worth by bus, as I remember it. He stayed with Mother [the real Marguerite] at her apartment, but he spent a lot of time with us at our house, 7313 Davenport Street. We went out to the farm at least twice and did a little hunting for squirrels and rabbits with our .22 rifles. .... We [Robert & wife Vada] did know that she [the Marguerite imposter] had been shopping [working] in the Fair store, but only because Vada had been shopping in the store one day saw her at the candy counter. Then, the day of the accident, she [the Marguerite imposter) telephoned us to say that she was disabled and could not continue working. After that she called Vada often, just to talk, but she never called me at the office. (Karl mistyped "working" as "shopping.") Karl said that EVERYTHING Armstrong claimed is wrong. Here again is what Armstrong claimed: There is no indication that: The Marguerite imposter contacted Robert about her accident. Robert visited the Marguerite imposter over the accident. Robert provided financial assistance or any other help to the Marguerite imposter. LEE visited the Marguerite imposter during his military leave. LEE provided financial assistance or any other help to the Marguerite imposter. Now, here is the verdict for each Armstrong claim: Armstrong is wrong. The Marguerite imposter did indeed contact Robert about her accident. Karl is wrong. Karl is wrong. Karl is wrong. Karl is wrong. I don't want to waste any more time with Karl's claim. I will record here where Armstrong said the two Marguerites were working when the Marguerite imposter had her accident: From the testimony of John Pic and Robert Oswald we know that the tall, nice-looking Marguerite Oswald worked at Cox's Department Store from October, 1958 (John Pic's visit) thru April, 1959 (Robert Oswald's visit). During this time the short, dumpy, heavyset "Marguerite" imposter began work at the King Candy [Counter at the Fair Ridglea Store] in August, was injured on December 5, and was unemployed thru the summer of 1959. And where Armstrong said the two Marguerites were living when the Marguerite imposter had her accident: The real Marguerite Oswald (tall, nice-looking, well dressed) had been living in apartment #3 at 3830. W. 6th for the past two years... ...the short, dumpy, heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" imposter lived alone in the small duplex at 3006 Bristol Road in Fort Worth.

I don't know how the inter-sprocket images prove anything. They were in the original negatives and they are in the extant positive copies. No big surprise there.

It's after midnight in the United States, where most of our members live. They are sleeping.