On 12/19/2020 at 6:46 PM, Denny Zartman said:

The picture of the dent is in Robert Groden's "The Killing Of A President" page 41. It looks to be maybe an inch or less to the right of the rearview mirror. It sure looks like a bullet hole to me.

 

Any driver of the limo adjusting the sun visors could not miss seeing that big ugly hole indentation with surrounding lifted metal.

Looks like it was made by a powerful blow from the pointed end of a pick ax.

Obviously someone on the Warren Commision felt this starkly obvious damage anomaly was suspicious looking enough in the context of it perhaps happening during the shooting and being bullet impact caused to ask limo driver S.A. Greer directly about it.

The indentation looked as bullet caused to these persons as it does to many of us as well.

Since so much of the limo shooting findings would be earth shaking changed if the indentation was proven to be bullet caused, I am surprised anyone on the commission even dared introduce such questioning...as limited as it was to just Greer and not others who had close up access to the limo including S/A. Geis or Vaughn Ferguson.

Again, if anyone knows of any published material that shows the F.B.I. or anyone else on that scientifically serious level analyzed the indentation and it's time and place origin, I would like to see this.

It is so G. Gordon Liddyish.

2 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Joe,

He tweeted this out on 12/29/20 (replying to himself, of course)

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

 

Replying to

@realDonaldTrump

"....Can you imagine if the Republicans stole a Presidential Election from the Democrats - All hell would break out. Republican leadership only wants the path of least resistance. Our leaders (not me, of course!) are pathetic. They only know how to lose! P.S. I got MANY Senators more votes than is needed by me to win Pennsylvania, not to mention hundreds of thousands of votes in other categories which increase my already big lead into a landslide. All other Swing States show likewise. WE NEED NEW & ENERGETIC REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP. This can not stand.."

 

Steve Thomas

Like I said...completely delusional!

And damaging to our entire society in so many ways.

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

Donald Trump: "Our leaders (not me, of course!) are pathetic."

 

 

 

Steve, not that anything coming from Trump shocks us anymore, but did he really utter or tweet the line you quote above?

The man is living ( trapped ) in his own little mind world of obsessively self-centered, detached from reality delusion.

To a mentally ill degree according to tens of thousands of mental health professionals.

Me, me, me, me, me, me, - look at me, look at me, look at me - listen to me, listen to me, listen to me - give me what "I" want ... all the time, every time! 

Or I will unleash a never ending temper tantrum on you the likes of which you can't even imagine!

Trump once said to David Letterman on Letterman's TV show that "I was a real brat growing up." 

To which Letterman responded with lightly humorous condescension ... that "we tend to remain the same people all our lives" ...and how important it was that we at least "try" to correct our flaws the rest of our lives.

With a perplexed Stan Laurel type facial expression, Trump nodded agreement.

12 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Joe Bauer asked if Vaughn Ferguson was asked about the defect in the chrome molding:

Not that I am aware of.  Rowley's letter was written in response to Vaughn Ferguson's memo, and I think Rowley added that 'convenient' interpretation on his own.

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif

http://ss100x.com/pg2ferg.gif

I would think that Vaughn Ferguson would have been aware of the Warren Commission asking S.A. Greer about "the indentation." It is obvious that both he and his odd named lifetime friend "Raleigh Degeer Amyx" were avid collectors of JFK memorabilia so it seems logical that they had an interest in the JFK assassination itself. 

Suspicious that Ferguson wasn't called before the Warren Commission considering they wanted to know more about the limo indentation and just a basic inquiry into the limo's management responsibility would have led them to Ferguson imo.

Can anyone give me a link to a highly credible source indentation explanation that proves it's existence and origin had nothing to do with the shooting into the JFK limo on 11,22,1963 besides the preposterous one given by S.A. Geis ( or as Pam Brown mentions) Crowley?

1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Andrea Junker ®

@Strandjunker

“Can we please all agree that this experiment of having a dumb TV host and shady real estate developer with no government knowledge, 5 children from 3 marriages, 6 bankruptcies, 46 charges of sexual assault, and 5,800 lawsuits as president is not going well at all? #DirtyDon “

https://twitter.com/Strandjunker/status/1342617825408593920

 

Steve Thomas

Totally agree!

5 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Right on Doug! And along that line, a present day illustration.

Trump, his family and organization and his most blindly loyal staff have been receiving their own stimulus check monies  ( 25X more ) through rerouting tens of millions through his shell companies, $180,000 a year government jobs ( even Don Junior's girlfriend Kimberly Guilfoyle!) and ridiculously low responsibility high pay job placement paybacks ( Kellyanne Conway, Hope Hicks, and on and on ) and their shameless acceptance of these ... gifts?

And any stimulus monies paid to unprecedent stressed American citizens is "their money to begin with!" 

Our federal dollars are nothing but what Americans have paid to the government in personal income taxes.

And these people are labeled as undeserving "free loaders?"

Billionaires, millionaires, corporations ( all of whom take advantage of every wealthy favoring tax loophole ) and their highly paid executives and stockholders have and will continue to benefit 1,000 X more from any stimulus package the Republican party gives out, versus any suffering middle or lower class citizen caught in this financial and job wipe out tsunami.

On 12/26/2020 at 11:09 AM, Pamela Brown said:

From my standpoint, this is just Rowley double-speak.  

Morgan Geis was not formally in charge of SS100X. Vaughn Ferguson was.

Was Vaughn Ferguson ever asked about the indentation?

9 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

From my standpoint, this is just Rowley double-speak.  

Morgan Geis was not formally in charge of SS100X. Vaughn Ferguson was.

Was Vaughn Ferguson ever asked about the indentation?

Vince, was the subject of the windshield frame damage ever discussed between you and any of the agents you corresponded with?

I'm assuming no because only a handful had enough time around the limo to notice?

Do you have any feelings about the damage and whether it was or was not there before the JFK shooting as Greer stated?

If the damage was not there before the shooting, are you open minded about the possibility that it could have been created by an impacting bullet?

Merry Christmas everybody. I wish you all a speedy stimulus check.

Something this singer could use.

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Thank you WN for posting this.

My wife and I had 3 to 4 minutes of barrel laughs reading all the hilarious contents. 

Nice to start off our covid lockdown stressed day with something so funny and which made us laugh so hard.

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

 

Trump's just determined to make this thing end like The Godfather, Part III, isn't he?

Very appropriate analogy.

Trump truly has been like a mob boss most of his adult life. 

He uses their same lingo, uses their same negotiation tactics- make em an offer they can't refuse. Punish them if they do.

He hires a tough talking mob like consigliere to handle his dirty work for 10 years - Michael Cohen.

Then when his right hand man capo Cohen turns on him ( like Sammy "the BULL" Gravano did to John Gotti) Trump publicly labels Cohen with the ultimate Mob threat insult..."RAT!"

There is a remarkable You Tube video of David Letterman interviewing Trump back in October, 2013.

At one point Letterman asks Trump if he has had to deal with members of New York City organized crime. At first Trump makes a joke of the question and says grudingly "maybe one."

Pressed more on the question Trump then admits it was more than just "one"  and adds this incredibly shocking mob complimenting statement.

"i have on occassion met some of those people...and let me tell you, some of them ...are very nice people."

Think about Trump's mob complimenting comment for a few seconds.

A future president of the United States saying some ( let alone any) members of America's violent organized crime syndicates "are very nice people." ???

Check out this mob compliment interview below. Trump's "very nice people" proclamation comments begin at the 6 minute, 50 second mark.

The entire interview is revelatory. Trump admits to being a "brat" his whole childhood and claims he made very good grades in school.

On 12/19/2020 at 11:40 AM, Vince Palamara said:

It is very hard to believe this Secret Service excuse for the indentation (made to J. Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission in January 1964 [CD80]).

Wouldn't one think that whoever was responsible for JFK's limo ( in this case S.A. Geis ) might have asked ( demanded ) the owners of the "Empire Garage" Lincoln Mercury dealership in New York repair the very visible and unsightly damage they caused ( according to Geis's statement ) to the inside of the limo windshield frame?

If any of us took our own personal car to a dealer repair business and got our car back with this hideous 5 or 6 inch wide metal twisting around a 1/2 inch or more deep indentation hole, would we not immediately demand they fix it?

We are talking the number one public display show car for the President of the United States! 

Used and showcased both here and abroad!

A car that took an unprecedent amount of advanced Ford corporation redesign and alteration work to build and $200, 000 more government money to enhance even further. 

S.A. Geis's indentation provenance statement including the ignoring of the windshield frame damage and it's repair for more than two years ... is preposterous.

34 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Exclusive: Donald Trump's Martial-Law Talk Has Military on Red Alert

By William M. Arkin On 12/24/20 at 5:00 AM EST

https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-donald-trumps-martial-law-talk-has-military-red-alert-1557056

 

"At this point there's no telling what the president might do in the next month," says a former Northern Command (NORTHCOM) commander, one who has been intimately involved in the development of domestic civil planning. "Though I'm confident that the uniformed military leadership has their heads screwed on right,

>>>>>   the craziness is unprecedented <<<<<

and the possibilities are endless." The retired flag officer also requested anonymity because he is actively advising senior officers and is not authorized to speak on the record.

In some ways the military has already gotten dragged into the issue. Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn, President Trump's first national security advisor and a recently pardoned felon, publicly broached the subject of martial law on the conservative channel Newsmax last week, saying that the president should use the military to seize voting boxes and "rerun" the election in certain states.

"He could take military capabilities and he could ... basically rerun an election," Flynn said. "The president has to plan for every eventuality because we cannot allow this election and the integrity of our election to go the way it is.'' Flynn's suggestion has been openly condemned by numerous retired officers. Lt. Col. Lawrence Wilkerson, former chief of staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, said on MSNBC that Flynn was a "disgrace to his uniform."

Ms. P.B. 

I thought you had retired from posting since I haven't seen you here in so long.

You are the resident expert on the JFK limo.

I know you have different takes on it's place in the overall case. Including the windshield frame indentation.

I don't know however, if I ever read your take on S.A. Greer and his Warren Commission testimony regards his not noticing the windshield frame damage until the day after 11,22,1963?

I think I read where you don't think the indentation is as important as I and others think it is and was not made by a bullet. Also, do you accept S.S. Geis's claim that the indentation was made 2 years previous to 11,22,1963 and was the result of some work being done in a shop outside of Washington D.C.?

The Stock market is going up again today!

Furthering it's mercurial climb to all time record levels.

Most of the country is in the most severe lockdown status ever.

California is a state wide ghost town!

It looks like Super Bowl Sunday on the freeways and in every downtown.

Reminds me of the day JFK was shot. Everybody staying home to watch TV.

Every travel and tourism related business is either shut down completely or darn close to it. 80+% of our areas restaurants are closed and the rest are just barely staying afloat with take out. Only our fast food drive through and Pizza delivery ones are still doing well. 20 out of 2 to 300?

Every hotel and motel is almost empty. Our largest hotel ( The Lodge at Pebble Beach) is completely shut down. A month ago they let go almost 1,000 employees.

Just read where the Cruise line business may never come back and if so not until 2030.

Car sales are dead. No one has any money to buy. Which means car insurance companies and finance companies are taking 50% loss hits as well.

Probably 80% or more of every type of business in this country are taking hits they have never even imagined being possible and this has been going on for almost a year now.

Yet the stock market has exploded to levels beyond even the so-called record low unemployment and high job creation greatness Trump publicly bragged about 5 times a day for years?

Yes, some can give all the reasons why the stock market is immune to the almost  unbelievable entire national business and job market collapse. The opposite of Trump's excuse as to why it was so high before.

Oh, the new vaccines will turn it all around in 6 months. That's it!

Also the massive increase in stay at home, watching TV and binge eating food sales?  

Home movie rentals? 

Anti-depressant drug sales?

No.

Even all of those areas of consumer need fulfillment interests are not enough to explain the record stock market explosion and we know it.

It will take several hard time years for American business and job markets to get even close to pre-pandemic levels. 

The stock market is being manipulated imo, BIG TIME.

To keep Wall Street and the largrest corporate interests safe from the same fate as half our nation's citizens whose lives have never been so devastated financially and socially.

Isn't it obvious that when Trump stalled on any stimulus action before the election he was trying to figure out how to use the package to his advantage politically.

It seems he wasn't sure how to do this with a guaranteed result in his favor.

I sense he (Trump) kept thinking that the huge majority of Americans stressed the most by the Covid crush were lower income people and including blacks and Hispanics. Ethnic groups he knew were not going to vote for him in the majority anyway and not at all with black voters.

Trump has always tried to block federal aid to Democratic party favoring states.

Especially states with large black population cities. 

If Trump could, he would only allow federal aid to states that vote Republican.

This 8 month long cut off of "any" direct financial assistance to 10's of millions of super stressed Covid citizens has been a national travesty, if not a crime against humanity. 8 long months! 

Many top economists were publicly saying such and pleading for more direct stimulus help to these millions months ago, not just to prevent these millions of hurting Americans from falling deeper and deeper in stressing debt, but to also help the overall business economy of the entire country.

Trump and McConnell and all the other Republicans simply ignored these pleas and warnings. 

This 8 month long cut off while 40 to 50 million Americans (or maybe even double that ) have been financially and even socially stressed more than at any times in their lives is the essence of government malfeasance, "purposely initiated" which makes it the essence of cruelty as well.

This latest Trump publicity stunt with his phony caring promotion of a larger direct payment stimulus check amount is a shameless act of disingenuous desperateness that no one believes is born out of sincere empathy for the millions of Americans who needed this kind of help every month for the last 8!

It's far too late presentation makes it the ultimate act of cynical cruelty.

40 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Donald Trump is very big on revenge.

He is deliberately scuttling the Stimulus Relief Bill.

He's going to get back at Mitch McConnell for McConnell not helping him to overturn the election.

He's also going to get back at the American people for voting him out of office.

Steve Thomas

Steve, I agree.  I seriously think this is the Revenge In Chief's thoughts and motivation.

As Michael Cohen ( his consigliere and closest confidant for 10 years ) stated in his tell-all book about Trump, he likes to get back at those who contested, criticised or caused him to not get anything he wanted.

Vindictive to the point of sadistic pleasure.

Millions of unemployed ( on the rolls and not ) are behind in their rents, car payments and probably many other basic need payments.

$600 for a single head of household or $1200 for a married couple won't touch the amounts they owe. 

Like me the last stimulus check. My 2007, 185,000 mileage car broke down the day I received my check. $1,400 repair bill the next day. $1,400 I didn't have before the check.

Yes, the check covered 85% of the car repair bill and I was grateful to get it.

But times are 3,4 and 5X more dire financially for millions of covid income loss Americans now versus 8 months ago ( my wife and daughter lost their jobs due to Covid by the summer ) and they ( the McConnell Republicans ) cut these checks in half?

Even people who voted for Trump ( must be millions as well ) are in this covid lost income stress and they don't care that the people they supported and voted for are screwing them like this...with their own money?

Wall Street, millionaire farmers, race horse owners, Tom Brady ... no problem giving them big chunk bailouts. But millions of super stressed working class and lower Americans?  $600?

That wouldn't cover McConnell's monthly housekeeper costs.

From our very own Marie Antoinette minded Mitch McConnell .... "Let them eat cake!"

Dicken's Scrooge reincarnate ... "Are there no workhouses?"

Truths 99% of Americans will never know about or care to know about.

Too heavy to face and deal with.

On 12/22/2020 at 7:43 AM, Denny Zartman said:

Greer's testimony on this seems to be compelling, in my opinion.

Apparently Greer had been driving JFK in this specially built limo since it came out in 1961, and he was involved with attaching and removing the tops during all that time. Is this a fair and accurate description?

For someone to have occupied the driver's seat in a professional capacity in a two year period and to have also been involved with attaching/removing the bubble tops during that time and not noticed that indentation is difficult to believe. It seems to me the only way that indentation could have gotten there innocently would have to have been during the process of attaching or removing the bubble top. Whatever made that hole had to have struck the frame pretty hard. That's not a scratch. It doesn't even look like a dent to me; it looks like a straight up hole. It appears that areas of metal around the dent are misshapen as well. It seems to me Greer would have to have known if there was a piece in the front center of the bubble top that could have hit the limo that hard by accident during the process of attaching or removing the top.

What was Geis' statement on the dent? I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'm curious as to how many others have made any statements on the record about this dent and what they've said.

Mark and Denny, I wonder whether the JFK limo bubble top was ever engaged mechanically.

Like our current sun/moon roof auto accessories that are built into the bodies of the car itself and retract mechanically. The motors that do this are powerful enough that if any part of the moving roof piece were to become misaligned or off track, I could see that kind of mechanical force being powerful enough to puncture and lift up a hard steel frame such as what we see in the indentation photo.

On the other hand, if the JFK limo bubble top was a strictly man installed piece with hand turning lever tightening, my guess is that this could not generate enough force to puncture hard steel and lift up the surrounding area in the frame as well.

That heavy steel frame indentation and uplifting of it's surrounding area took a lot of impacting force. And what part of the bubble top edge that connected to windshield frame had a protruding point or shape that penetrated into the frame creating a circular bullet size and shape hole as deep as the photo shows? 

The hole we see resembles what one would expect from a heavy blow by the round end of a ball peen hammer. And just as logically a bullet.

Your assessment of Greer's credibility and his under oath WC testimony of never seeing the indentation until the next day after 11,22,1963 is so logically bolstered by his years of being just two feet away from the windshield frame perhaps hundreds of times ( and for an hour on 11,22,1963 ) which makes it obvious why no one has ever presented any even half-way reasonable counter argument to his testimony.

Who else spent more behind the wheel time in that limo than Greer?

And the photos above sure seem to prove that the Dallas motorcade JFK limo was indeed also flown and used in motorcades in other countries. It was the showiest car we had and my common sense just laughs at me in giving any thought to that 5 inch wide, ugly, in your face windshield smash, hole dent being missed and/or dismissed as not worth fixing for two years before 11,22,1963.

Has anyone posting on this forum ever had any hands-on occupational experience working with or around metal fabrication? Machinest work?

Someone who knows the tolerances of anything similar to the steel used to make the JFK limo windshield frame?

I would like to ask their opinion regards the sometimes promoted theory that an exploded piece of JFK's obliterated skull could have created the windshield frame indentation we see in the photo above. The frame indentation the Warren Commission asked S.A. Greer about. 

Also, the bullet fragments found in the front passenger area of the limo? Together with the bullet fragments seen in Xrays of JFK's brain and skull, did these combined bullet fragments make up most of a bullet that was of the type found on Connally's stretcher?

And could a decent size chunk of the JFK head shot bullet have gone through JFK's skull twice ( entering and exiting ) and still been able to continue on a non-deflected almost straight line path into the frame to do as much damage to the windshield frame as we see? And then simply drop out to be found on the front seat or floor?

JFK's limo was one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case.

It was contaminated immediately with washing down of the seats and then spirited away from the crime scene where it's study could be more controlled.

And soon enough flown out to be totally compromised.

41 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said:

The middle and lower classes ( the huge majority of Americans ) would still be early 1900's criminally used, abused and unprotected by the wealthiest class if it wasn't for our common good defending Democratic party and leadership during the last 88 years and the incredibly courageous progressive movement led by so many heroic women during those early years. 

Include also the much more tolerant policies towards the tens of millions of illegals and the children they gave birth to after arriving.

When I see Hispanics voicing support for Republicans and especially Donald Trump I want to ask them which party has treated them and their newly arriving shared lineage poor better by far for generations and still today?

Exhausting, but I just read 75% of the posts in this thread.

The interconnections between the wealthy and powerful personally and politically seems never ending, and is a disturbing reality check on the way things really work in the highest rungs of power and control in our country.

More a plutocracy than a democracy imo.